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--Tech & Moderator Notes
Terms, offensive and otherwise
2010-07-09
Given the spirited discussion yesterday, allow me as one of the moderators to make clear a few fine points of my moderation. Other mods may jump in to this conversation as they wish, and if I say something stupid I'm sure Fred will correct me.

Some regulars are concerned that the moderators are 'censoring' criticism of the current President. If you know the mods you know that's silly, as (for example) I'm one of his fiercest critics. I won't speak for the other mods, but the water-cooler talk I hear is that none of us are overly-happy.
Rantburg is a war blog. So regardless of personal orientation, we care about fighting the war against the caliphatists... and fighting to win. I wouldn't dare characterize my criticism as fierce -- but I am very disappointed thus far.
Yet we criticize the President without resorting to language, images and caricatures that would be considered racist. We don't use pics of non-human primates. We don't use the n-word or other such words. I call the man 'Bambi', but I don't call him anything racist.

Why?

Well first, I'm not like that. I hope.

And second, because the Burg, as I've said a few times, punches above its weight.

In addition to our regulars and lurkers from all walks of life, we're read by people who have influence in various places. They like the Burg as much as we do, and they find it of value.
You aren't the only one who's mentioned that, Dr. Steve. Rantburg has been recommended to at least one head of a foreign government, as reported by one of our early foreign correspondents.
They won't read the Burg, however, if it becomes known as a place that uses a pic of a gibbon to stand for the President. Nor would anyone of decency and sense. The people who oppose us and what we stand and work for would jump on that and use it to ruin the Burg.

Fred has worked too hard, and all of us have helped for too long, to let that happen. So we mods don't let it happen.

One of our regulars signed himself yesterday thusly --

A white, non-racist, strongly-conservative (& Constitutional) entreprenuer labeled a 'right-wing extremist' & danger to his country by his own government for his political views.

I wasn't sure at first whether he meant himself or me. Perhaps both of us. We're likely not the only ones who fit that long label, but there are others here who are diverse. Non-white. Independent or classic liberal. Professional. Blue-collar. Whatever. The Burg is open to all who share our core beliefs.

We mods work to keep it that way.

One point that came up yesterday: the term 'teabagger' is indeed offensive. It was used in a title of a post yesterday as a way to stick that hateful term in the ear of the progressives who hurl it. I liked it; that's why it stayed.

Finally, Fred and the mods are always approachable. Gripe? Complaint? Issue? E-mail us.
I've had a number of those emails, starting even before I was issued my pretty periwinkle cluebat. We always got it resolved. :-)

Steve White (AoS)
Posted by:Steve White

#52  For those who are considering not returning to the Burg, please give me a moment.

I've been here since not long after the Burgs inception. To my knowledge, I was the first to call the North Koreans NorKs. Before that they were always called NoKs on the Burg. I dunno when that was, but anyone who's been around here long enough can tell you that the use of NoKs went out a long damn time ago. (And I was lurking a while before that)

During that time I've seen some mod issues that I disagree with as strongly as you disagree with this most recent one. Believe me, I've been where you are. I've been in the Burgs' doghouse over muh differences. (Which aint so bad anymore now that Shipman put some straw over the piece of Waffle House sign in there.)

I think the main issue that sometimes prevents reconciling the mods position with the average Rantburgers position is that the mods at times don't do a great job of explaining the reason for their position. As is - I believe - the case here.

They've touched on it, but haven't really laid out the full picture. Yes, the Burg punches above it's weight and yes, important people read it. That explanation - while certainly true (There's men who wear stars whom read this thing in theater as well as politicians on our side at home) - doesn't give you the full picture. And in the mods defense, you should be able to complete the line of thought from that, though while angry, we rarely think things out like this and that's what ima try to do.

Everyone here understands that the picture that started the stir was not racist in any way. The problem we all face is that the left along with their media accomplices would have no problem leaving out critical facts in order to go all Alinsky on the Burg if it suited their purpose. As we on the right use the fact that politicians on the left use and interact with sites like the Daily Kos, so too can the left use the Burg against politicians if it benefited them. With their allies in the media, it would be extremely easy. Not posting pictures of primates (Yes, I know it's been done with many other presidents) makes it more difficult. Let's not make it easy for them.

The Burg is a very valuable tool for our political allies, for our future political allies and for us to influence them both. The Burg loses it's value if we don't prevent our political enemies from being able to use it as a stick with which to beat our political allies over their heads. Influence is the true value of the Burg. As a free speech tool, it's worth absolutely no more than countless other websites and arguably far less than many already out there and that is why redacting yesterdays photo was the right decision. Not for just the Burg, but for you and I, and of course, The Children. We gotta win this was or their future is even more hosed than it already is. Think of The Children, man!






Posted by: Mike N.   2010-07-09 21:35  

#51  Just think, if this thread hadn't distracted you, you might have managed to miss all of it!
Posted by: Thing From Snowy Mountain   2010-07-09 21:14  

#50  Multi-task Skunky, multi-task!
Posted by: Besoeker   2010-07-09 21:04  

#49  I got so wrapped up in this thread I missed half of OReilly :)

Rantburg rocks!
Posted by: Skunky Glins****   2010-07-09 21:01  

#48  
That said though, I think it really sucks that our side is supposed to bend over backwards while the other side acts a viciously as they do.

Sooner or later turning the other cheek and taking the high road is going to have to end. The left will keep on pushing until the good guys fight back. Fight for real.


Yep and yep. And when the good guys finally do fight back, the Left is going to have a really BAD time.
Posted by: Secret Asian Man   2010-07-09 20:44  

#47  As a 'part time' poster here I thought I'd chime in.

I can understand that folks posting on a site call RANTberg would expect to be able to post some items over the line or at the very least right up to the line and not be subject to the PC police.

That said, in this racially charged world, due in no small part to the current regime, AND due to the fact that this web site is owned by Fred - Fred gets to make the rules. If its zero (heh heh) tolerance for things that might be interpreted, accidentally or purposefully, as racist then zero tolerance it is.

I understand both sides and I think it comes down to Fred's house Fred's rules.

That said though, I think it really sucks that our side is supposed to bend over backwards while the other side acts a viciously as they do.

Sooner or later turning the other cheek and taking the high road is going to have to end. The left will keep on pushing until the good guys fight back. Fight for real.

My two cents.
Posted by: Hellfish   2010-07-09 20:33  

#46  Humans may have lost air sacs during their evolutionary history because they are able to modify their speech breathing patterns and so reduce any tendency to hyperventilate

hokay, then explain Code Pink, Global Warmists, and leftist loons in general, then, smart guy!

:-)
Posted by: Frank G   2010-07-09 20:18  

#45  In relation to the air sac on the simiang gibbon pictured above, it was noted in Folia Primatalogia (the international journal of primatology) that;

"A possible function of laryngeal air sacs in apes and gibbons was investigated by examining the relationships between air sac distribution, call rate, call duration and body weight in a phylogenetic context. The results suggest that lack of sacs in the smaller gibbons and in humans is a derived feature. Call parameters in primates, such as rate and duration, scaled to resting breathing rate (and therefore to body weight) only in species without air sacs, which appear to modify these relationships. Apes and larger gibbons may be able to produce fast extended call sequences without the risk of hyperventilating because they can re-breathe exhaled air from their air sacs. Humans may have lost air sacs during their evolutionary history because they are able to modify their speech breathing patterns and so reduce any tendency to hyperventilate."

I found this;
a) interesting, and
b) vaguely relevant to the discussion above.

Do pulmonologists know about this stuff?

Posted by: Bunyip   2010-07-09 20:03  

#44  Do pulmonologists deal with parasympathetic nerve reactions where your throat closes up when you go running, often mistaken for asthma? If so, then I have been to one.
Posted by: Ford Maude Elle   2010-07-09 18:56  

#43  Good news Janet, your lungs are very nice clear.
Posted by: Besoeker   2010-07-09 18:49  

#42  'pulmonologist' - In medicine, pulmonology (aka pneumology) is the specialty that deals with diseases of the lungs and the respiratory tract. (wikipedia...). (Wikipedia)

and yes - I had to look it up....
Posted by: CrazyFool   2010-07-09 18:22  

#41  Wow, I thought the pulmonologists went out with the arrival of Amtrak.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2010-07-09 18:16  

#40  I misremembered Steve's specialty. Got approximately the right region of the body tho. ;-)
Posted by: lotp   2010-07-09 17:08  

#39  "didn't know Dr Steve is a cardiologist.

I'm a pulmonologist"

She got the "ologist" part right, Dr. Steve. Close enough? ;-p

And I agree - Fred's site, Fred's terms, Fred's rules.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2010-07-09 16:28  

#38  Yeah, I regret the churn. But this is reality. And regulars are leaving.

*sigh* We've gone through this every single election season since 2004, as passions rise and things are said that can't be taken back. If only people would remember that men of good will can disagree on the best way to achieve even those goals they agree upon, and can disagree on the rest without either being ... well y'all know the epithets on both sides considerably better than I do.
Posted by: trailing wife   2010-07-09 16:23  

#37  Fred's site. Fred's rules. Don't like 'em? There are >100,000 other politics-focused English-language sites out there you can participate in.

Me, I appreciate what Fred, Steve and all the mods do, and a measure of my appreciation is my willingness to play here by their rules.
Posted by: lex   2010-07-09 16:02  

#36  No teleprompter, give him a talking dog collar like from "Up" and a cone of shame.
Posted by: Ford Maude Elle   2010-07-09 15:36  

#35  i usually just refer to him a 0bama. with a zero to emphasize his qualifications and competency.

read something elsewhere the day of his 'immigration reform' speech that in hell, he needs to be set up with a system that anytime he speaks will cause him immense direct pain using a device similar to a dog's bark collar. that would make him suffer any time he spoke, and suffer even more at not being able to listen to his own voice if he was silent.
Posted by: abu do you love   2010-07-09 15:34  

#34  Well, I would get the buffed aluminium bat out only if there is a blue moon

Until then, it is safely ensconced next to the velvet-lined Shutter Gun® case.
Posted by: Mullah Richard   2010-07-09 15:29  

#33  The image I hold most often of our current "president" is that of a braying jackass, just because it fits so well with his behavior. I wouldn't insult a primate by intimating that Barry is that intellectually advanced. "President" OBumble is definitely someone who has been promoted above his level of incompetence. It's going to take the adults at least ten years to clean up the mess he's already made of our government, if not longer. Mods, please let me know if any of this is too offensive.
Posted by: Old Patriot   2010-07-09 14:59  

#32  BTW, OT....didn't know Dr Steve is a cardiologist.

I'm a pulmonologist.
Posted by: Steve White   2010-07-09 14:36  

#31  I like Zero because it sums up how much actual work experience the man had before his current job.
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305   2010-07-09 14:14  

#30  Don't see Zero. That one seems to be the one most in favor recently.
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305   2010-07-09 14:12  

#29  Obummer
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305   2010-07-09 14:11  

#28  Liar in Chief
Zero (referring to his accomplishments)
Carter 2.0

I've heard some worse one which I won't repeat here (or anywhere else).
Posted by: CrazyFool   2010-07-09 13:33  

#27  Obama bin Lyin
Posted by: Ford Maude Elle   2010-07-09 13:22  

#26  Found some more Presidential nicknames on the web with a quick search, good ones:

Barry Queen of Snots
Teleprompter Jesus

...though agitated parents won't like the insult to Jesus or the Scots they'll still enjoy these snarks.

All this heat and insult slinging makes you want to pop someone with a towel and spray the kids with the water hose, so juvenile, so hilariously enjoyable on such a base and simple level. Even funnier after a few drinks tonight. Happy Friday fellow drones.
Posted by: Onerous   2010-07-09 13:13  

#25  While we're all here and thinking about it, it would be nice to assemble a collection of spacially appropriate criticisms of our "dear leader" by listing a few of our favorite past current and possible future nicknames for our current POTUS.

It's only fair that we all get something out of this love fest of apologies and back slapping and that we are able to at least glean something ultimately useful for our future political conversations at the local gunstore, water cooler, gym, phone call with our aging and increasingly irritated parents, etc.... from this collection of great minds and apparent policymakers. Hell this deserves a whole thread of it's own.

Here's a shortlist I've developed lurking hereabouts that has proven hilariously useful in said conversations, especially with my increasingly irritated and aging parents:

Bambi
Dear Leader
Obumble
The One
The Empty Suit
Obama-(sorry, no that one is official)
Slowbama
Mr. Cool...Mr Drool

I need several more juvenile, yet intelligently snarky nicknames to use as these are wearing thin and we've got at minimum another two years to bitch about this clown.
Posted by: Onerous   2010-07-09 13:04  

#24  I was buried in a brief yesterday (and last night) - missed the entire thing. Thankfully.

Back in Fla-Da, Blondie? Just in time for humidity and hurricanes. ;-p
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut   2010-07-09 12:35  

#23  We said, don't use the pic of a gibbon in an article that's anything near Obama, because we don't want anyone to think that we're using a pic of a primate to describe the man.

Amen.

This mod read the post. This mod understood quite clearly the reference to Gibbon. She also noted the context WRT the President.

Thank you. I believe the phrasing on your comments didn't pass your thoughts as intended then.

And she notes that commenters have been warned about use of these images before. More than once. A slight escalation of the warning was therefore in order.

I thought I was playing by the rules, I really did. In fact, I didn't even know I was near the edge. I've been here a while, and I had no idea that if the word "president" was in the article that I couldn't post a picture of a simian even if it wasn't directed at the president. I think the whole misunderstanding is being seized/retasked to emphasize the rule so that people will remember it better. What can I expect next time? That we can't post pictures of simians unless there are at least two posts separating it from any other post mentioning the president? I know, this is ridiculous, but it hopefully demonstrates my thoughts here.

I think it would have been better just to start out by just politely warning a regular with no bad intentions and not to start swinging the mod-bats or throwing out ad-hominem attacks without the necessary decoder ring. Many more slight escalations like this and all that will be left of the burg will be a few insanely sharp mods that never make mistakes and a bunch of noobs. That's the last thing anyone want to see. Unless they want to see us spiral into socialism.

Potentially misconstrued by others at the expense of the Burg? Yup again. That's what we reacted to.

This is way better wording than to suggest there was any racism where there wasn't any intended, which is what I think raised hackles. Detractors will sieze the opportunity if things aren't worded this way.

I came late to the game yesterday, but in my ignorance I would have characterized that photo as "monkey" and completely missed the joke. I recognize chimpanzees and gorillas on sight, but gibbons are too esoteric for me. And if I didn't recognize the joke, what odds those on the other side will?

That makes lots of sense and might help explain why the pic was taken down. But one of the comments right after my pic was taken down indicated that it was a picture of a gibbon, but that didn't change the tone or direction of the mods' comments as many would have expected it to, right or wrong.

Lets get back to whats important here and leave the MODs alone.

Yeah, I regret the churn. But this is reality. And regulars are leaving. The regulars who were attracted to what this blog was and make it what it is. Assuming we need them, then something needs fixing before it's too late. It won't happen if we keep our mouths shut and don't understand each other and go beyond a point of no return. There's too much of that in the world today.

So I've gotta say something, even if it's wrong or only half right, because I don't want the burg to drift into something that NPR, Instapundit and foreign heads of state don't care about.

Posted by: gorb   2010-07-09 12:18  

#22  Abraham Lincoln as ape.

http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/cartoon3/monkey%20cartoon%203.jpg

Jimmy Carter as ape.

http://angrywhitedude.com/wp-content/uploads2/2009/04/jimmy-carter-252x300.jpg

There are too many to count for George W. Bush, as can be seen in a GIS.
Posted by: Anonymoose   2010-07-09 12:02  

#21  Man, I take some time off to move back home to Florida, and all hell breaks loose. ;)

(BTW, OT....didn't know Dr Steve is a cardiologist. If you ever come across a study needing volunteers for Tetralogy of Fallot, let me know. My family would be happy to participate.)

Posted by: Swamp Blondie, the artist formerly known as Cornsilk Blondie   2010-07-09 11:52  

#20  Hands across the aisle.
Posted by: GolfBravoUSMC   2010-07-09 11:10  

#19  Gawd, can we get past this without Fred needing to buy another server. Its Fred site, the MODs manage it, we get to play here as long as we play by their rules. It's their Basketball. No monkies, Baboons, or Gibbons-new to me too TW. And now everyone gets a big hug so we can be done with this. BTW the derailed news article was an important one, does anyone remember it???? Lets get back to whats important here and leave the MODs alone.
Posted by: 49 Pan   2010-07-09 11:04  

#18  Well, I would get the buffed aluminium bat out only if there is a blue moon, TW. The twinkling effect under the moonlit glow is dazzlingly beautiful.

:)
Posted by: Oscar   2010-07-09 09:37  

#17  gorb, I came late to the game yesterday, but in my ignorance I would have characterized that photo as "monkey" and completely missed the joke. I recognize chimpanzees and gorillas on sight, but gibbons are too esoteric for me. And if I didn't recognize the joke, what odds those on the other side will?

btw, have any other Presidents been compared to monkeys?

Yes, but never by us. The occasional troll who commented at that level was sinktrapped and became a chew toy, deserving of the scorn heaped upon him.

Oscar, so long as the nerf bat is respected, no need to get out the aluminum/aluminium one, right? And yes, it is pretty. ;-)
Posted by: trailing wife   2010-07-09 07:53  

#16  Perhaps this mod didn't read the post, but just looked at the picture like some of our detractors might do when looking for something to point at as "politically incorrect".

This mod read the post. This mod understood quite clearly the reference to Gibbon. She also noted the context WRT the President.

And she notes that commenters have been warned about use of these images before. More than once. A slight escalation of the warning was therefore in order.

And yes, NS, I've neither forgotten nor forgiven the use of chimp images for GWB.
Posted by: lotp   2010-07-09 06:52  

#15  I would have to agree that one needs to be fairly careful. Many people will label you racist if you don't agree with things like the boondoggle, rationing, socialist malarkey, deficit inducing, death spiral of National Health Care. Don't give them any more of a reason to play the racist card.
Posted by: miscellaneous   2010-07-09 06:46  

#14  btw, have any other Presidents been compared to monkeys? Was that racist? Whose reputation suffered most?

This is a very interesting discussion. I wonder how it would be said in 20 years.
Posted by: Nimble Spemble   2010-07-09 05:56  

#13  For the record, Gorb, neither lotp nor I called you a racist yesterday. We said, don't use the pic of a gibbon in an article that's anything near Obama, because we don't want anyone to think that we're using a pic of a primate to describe the man.

For the reasons I laid out above.

Do I 'get' that the pic was a play on the mayor's name? Yup. Funny? Yup. Potentially misconstrued by others at the expense of the Burg? Yup again. That's what we reacted to.
Posted by: Steve White   2010-07-09 05:19  

#12  Best news blog out there, pure and simple

The characters who post here give the site a strong pulse, which in turn, I believe, gives the moderators the drive to keep going.

We all have hiccups but the site is monitored in a professional, level headed and correct manner .

There is no foot stomping madness here, and the nerf bat only rears its pwetty head once in a blue moon !
Posted by: Oscar   2010-07-09 05:13  

#11  For completeness' sake, here's the pic I posted yesterday:



Doesn't look happy to me! Or maybe he's just trying to impress the babes there, I don't know.

I had no idea that males had that air-bladder thingy under their chin!
Posted by: gorb   2010-07-09 02:48  

#10  Whoops! That's not the pic I posted yesterday. This one's just a sad little monkey.
Posted by: gorb   2010-07-09 02:41  

#9  As a mere troll, my vote is in Gorbs favor. He is an interesting and thoughtful character.
Posted by: Angereque Squank5272   2010-07-09 02:02  

#8  A bit of an overreaction - it was clearly an attempt at humour. I'm going to Palinize this: Chill Baby Chill.
Posted by: Angereque Squank5272   2010-07-09 02:00  

#7  First time I've seen the pic. Very obviously "misconstrued" Gorb. Note the body language. Head and chin down, hands folded. A reflective, almost prayful attitude. How could anyone think.....
Posted by: Besoeker   2010-07-09 01:53  

#6  They won't read the Burg, however, if it becomes known as a place that uses a pic of a gibbon to stand for the President.

Ahem.

I don't want those who didn't read yesterday's article to misunderstand what happened.

There was an article titled "Gibbons Still Angry Over Obama's Comments". This was some seriously snark-worthy material, so I posted a picture of an apparently upset gibbon with the comment "Is there anyone out there this guy hasn't pi$$ed off yet?" and it quickly went downhill from there. The intent was to highlight the fact that Obama is upsetting every group out there, including some that normally wouldn't care much about US politics. Had the title been "Deere Still Angry Over Obama's Comments", I would have posted a picture of a deer with my same comment "Is there anyone out there this guy hasn't pi$$ed off yet?" and there would have been no fuss or misinterpretation whatsoever.

And we would all have laughed as I originally intended.

Hmm.

As for what Dr. Steve says, I agree with the mods that racism is not welcome here except as a contrast in order to expose it for what it is wherever it may hide. I apologize if at a glance it looked racist, but that was not my intent when I posted my comment. The idea did not even enter my mind. I'm still having a hard time with it being interpreted as racist, and an even harder time with the idea of being accused of racism here.

One thing that may have helped, and should be practiced by all including the mods, is to follow the rule of "no ad-hominem attacks". The mod who removed the photo left the comment "Once and for all folks: Do not use monkey / ape / chimpanzee photos when commenting at Rantburg about the current POTUS, no matter how clever you think you are being." Perhaps this mod didn't read the post, but just looked at the picture like some of our detractors might do when looking for something to point at as "politically incorrect". I can sort of understand that, but it still doesn't befit a mod. No matter what the intention, perhaps a better way of phrasing it to make it more palatable would have been "I know this pic was posted in jest and isn't supposed to represent the current POTUS, but it's been removed in case some reader chooses to take it that way" or something like that. Sarcastic ad-hominem comments for trolls are still OK I think.

I believe the regulars we lost yesterday were upset not by the anti-racist policy, but because some of the mods misinterpreted it as racist and wouldn't back down despite the article still being there for all to see and judge for themselves. I believe they were worried that they too will receive similar treatment for something they post that is misconstrued despite intentions that are not dishonorable.

Which for me is the hardest part of this whole incident.

Posted by: gorb   2010-07-09 01:43  

#5  here is what i saw:

the picture of a gibbon and the mayor of Las Vegas named Gibbons. the headline was that Gibbons was angry. the picture was an angry gibbon.

seemed a tad thin skinned and knee jerk to immediately think the picture was 0bama/racism

also seemed more than a tad thin skinned and knee jerk to go screaming about censorship and making threats to never come back.

all in all, the exchange saddened me. rantburg is normally better than that.
Posted by: abu do you love   2010-07-09 01:19  

#4  My goodness, Besoeker. I most certainly did not expect that!

Yesterday passions were stirred, 3dc.
Posted by: trailing wife   2010-07-09 01:14  

#3  Hat tip to the mods. Comparing a narcissitic Harvardian politician and reluctant apologetic American to a helpless, non-human primate is reprehensible and an offensive act no animal lover should be forced to tolerate.
Posted by: Besoeker   2010-07-09 01:01  

#2  Post your comments using logic, facts and solid arguments on your side.

Otherwise, you'll get eaten alive.

More than one regular has has had their ass handed to them by regulars as well as moderators, including the current poster.
Posted by: badanov   2010-07-09 00:32  

#1  Whoa! What did I miss while working?
Posted by: 3dc   2010-07-09 00:28  

00:00