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| Science & Technology |
| Marine Corps special ops trades in NATO 9mm pistol for new model Colt .45 |
| 2012-08-25 |
| The U.S. Marine Corps has ordered 12,000 .45 (11.4mm) caliber pistols (for $1,900 each), mainly for use by its SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and recon troops. These MARSOC (Marine Special Operations Command) troops have, like the army, navy and air force components of SOCOM quietly replaced most of their 9mm pistols with .45s. For the last few years the marines have been supplying their special operations troops with older M1911 model .45s, refurbished (or built from scrounged up parts) in a marine-run facility. The M1911 .45 caliber ACP is a 1.2 kg (2.45 pound) 210mm (8.25 inch) long weapon with a 127mm (5 inch) barrel and a 7 round magazine. Compared to the current American M9 9mm pistol the .45s have more hitting power, while the M9 is a bit more accurate at up to about 50 meters. $1900 each? Ouchie. That's a pricey pistol. The new marine .45s are not the old M1911A1 model, but the more modern Colt CQBP (Close Quarter Battle Pistol) which uses the same ammo as the M1911A1 but has a number of improvements that make the weapon more reliable, flexible and accurate. The CQBP holds eight rounds, is built to resist salt water corrosion, accept rail mounted accessories and so on. Looks just like the classic .45, too. Over the last decade American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan discovered, through combat experience, what types of weapons worked best at close range to take down the enemy. It was the same with SWAT teams and commandos all over the world. When conducting a raid and finding yourself up close and personal with someone trying to kill you, there is a need for a heavy caliber pistol or a shotgun (firing 00 shot or slugs). The premier pistol for ensuring you take down someone is still the .45 caliber (11.4mm) or .40 caliber (10mm, but only with a heavy bullet) pistols. These weapons are light and handy, compared to assault rifles or shotguns, and have a long history of quickly taking down an armed and determined foe. As the U.S. Army Special Forces discovered, if you are well trained and know what you are doing, you should carry a pistol, in addition to your rifle. But not the official issue (since 1985) M9 9mm pistol, but something with a bit more stopping power. The Special Forces prefer new model .45 caliber pistols, although 10mm weapons are also popular. The reason for this is that you are most likely to be using the pistol indoors, where your target is going to be really close. You want to knock him down quickly, before he can get at you with a knife, or even his hands. Many troops are getting their own pistols, and most commanders have been lenient on this issue. The same applies to shotguns. Although the army and marines have bought a lot of them (the Benelli M4 Combat Shotgun is a particular favorite), there never seem to be enough of them for some units (that spend a lot of time raiding buildings in hostile neighborhoods.) The U.S. military adopted the 9mm pistol in 1985 largely to standardize ammunition. All other NATO states used 9mm for pistols. The U.S. also noted that most 9mm pistols were carried by officers and support personnel, who rarely used them in combat. SOCOM came into being a few years later and immediately began planning to bring back .45 pistols. Actually, many Special Forces and SEAL operators never gave up using the .45, as it was the ideal pistol for many commando operations. |
| Posted by:gromky |
| #28 My Springfield 1911 was 950 bucks when I bought it. Stainless, ambidextrous safety levers. Great trigger pull, all ground and smoothed in the right places for perfect feed and case ejection. I put a wilson combat one piece spring guide, with wilson springs and a shock buff. That weapon keeps on firing and does not misfire. Put in some good hydro shock type rounds and you can tear something up at close quarters. Tritium sights are nice, too. I do not use a laser. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2012-08-25 23:06 |
| #27 Safest place to be when a duty cops pulls his pistol is 50ft in front of him. |
| Posted by: Iblis 2012-08-25 22:14 |
| #26 tipover, As they showed us when teaching us the finer points of using a .45, if you can point your finger at a target 20 feet away, you should be able to hit it every time. The last time I qualified on the .45, I didn't miss a single shot. And I don't consider myself that good a shot. I think the NYPD guys were too busy pissing their pants and calling their union steward about overtime to shoot correctly. What a bunch of pussies |
| Posted by: Bill Clinton 2012-08-25 21:43 |
| #25 "But crap guys, how hard is it to hit a human sized target that's only 20 to 50 feet away?" Via Instapundit: “As the two officers confronted a gunman in front of the Empire State Building.... From a distance of less than 10 feet, the officers, Craig Matthews and Robert Sinishtaj, answered in unison; one shot nine times and the other seven. Investigators believe at least 7 of those 16 bullets struck the gunman..." (Not counting the 9 bystanders hit.) |
| Posted by: Cromert 2012-08-25 20:27 |
| #24 Pistol shooting is a bit like sex. It has quite a lot to do with the operator. I thought it was Bridge that was like sex. You either have a good partner or a good hand. At least, that's what Mother told me! |
| Posted by: AlmostAnonymous5839 2012-08-25 18:00 |
| #23 More like the smallish size of the order and the paperwork. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2012-08-25 17:28 |
| #22 It's all the R&D Raider. Remember the $100k hammer ? |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 16:44 |
| #21 I'm fine with the switch to .45 cal. They should ahve done this a long time ago. It's the PRICE that's freaking me out. The 1911 has been in use for over a 100 years. Do we really need to fiddle with minor design changes ... is there anything that really needs to be done now that wasn't needed in all previous wars. I can go to Para Ordnance and buy a nice 1911 with a 5-inch barrel for under $700. So why in Hades is the Marine Corp paying $1900 for these pistols??? |
| Posted by: Raider 2012-08-25 16:10 |
| #20 Sounds familar - didn't the .45 become the standard US Army handgun after the .38 proved ineffective in the Phillipines Moro Insurection? A case where history doesn't exactly repeat itself but it rhymes. |
| Posted by: Mercutio 2012-08-25 15:19 |
| #19 the slower .45 round is not as prone to richochet, which is another plus for shooter, his teammates and potential bystanders Which is preferable inside a ship, along with the firepower and effectiveness at close range. |
| Posted by: Pappy 2012-08-25 15:11 |
| #18 Not that good a weapon Mike. Still a few limping around from Grenada. Klik |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 14:28 |
| #17 I am hoping for the 7.62x45. |
| Posted by: Whiskey Mike 2012-08-25 14:23 |
| #16 Above should read 7.62x51... but you knew that. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 14:02 |
| #15 Ok, rifle story. I had a friend on the Weapons Committee at the Special Warfare Center (SWC) at Ft. Bragg in the early 1960's. They were asked to test a replacement for the M-14 rifle. The committee recommended the FN FAL in 7.72 NATO. The recommendation was rejected by big Army. What is SOF transitioning to today (some 50 years later)? The SCAR in 7.72x51 NATO. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 14:00 |
| #14 Geez guys you found out how worthless the .38 special was and you went BACK to equivalently the same stupid weapon? Anything to appease the Yurp-peons, Bill. Until it gets you killed. Maybe. |
| Posted by: PBMcL 2012-08-25 13:31 |
| #13 > easy weapon to use once you got used to the recoil. I fired a .33 magnum on holiday. That was like a bomb going off in your hands. I cannot think what firing a .45 is like. |
| Posted by: Bright Pebbles 2012-08-25 13:12 |
| #12 Accurate? You don't have to center punch a guy with a .45 to take them down. Hit an adversary ANYWHERE with a .45 and they go down. But crap guys, how hard is it to hit a human sized target that's only 20 to 50 feet away? I carried the .45 the entire time I was in the Army and I think it is more accurate than that freaking popgun M-16. And BTW I shot EXPERT on the .45 every time I qualified and I thought it was an easy weapon to use once you got used to the recoil. Sappers over ran our fire base and fragged my hooch, I got out of there in my underwear with a .45, spent the entire night in a fire fight with a .45. I tell you for a fact that a VC centerpunched with a .45 with go backwards several feet in the air. I heard a lot of complaints about the 9 mm only irritating the bad guys from Marines and Army guys who came back from Afghanistan or Iraq. I was wondering when common sense was going to win out in the handgun department. I know the Italians are making a .45 version of the 92F because of the complaints and I know Brits and Poles were scrounging up .45's too. The 9 mm is a piece of crap worthless weapon best used as a club or an object thrown. Most police departments here in SoCal are going to the .40 S&W or .45...they found out how useless the 9mm was. Geez guys you found out how worthless the .38 special was and you went BACK to equivalently the same stupid weapon? |
| Posted by: Bill Clinton 2012-08-25 12:00 |
| #11 No weapons expert here, but I believe standard .45 ball, unlike the 9mm, is subsonic (very slow as you point out RJ). The Colt barrel is easily removed and replaced by a threaded barrel which will accept a sound supressor. Most combat pistol work, as I understand it, is done indoors at close range with lasers, in the hours of darkness or in limited light. The slower .45 round is not as prone to richochet, which is another plus for shooter, his teammates and potential bystanders. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 11:53 |
| #10 In the Navy, I shot a .45, the bullet was so slow i could see it travel, and also so slow I couldn't hit anything(It moved before the bullet got there) I prefer the 9MM that shoots straight, I cant see it and is accurate, if you use the 45 I suggest a much larger Magazine, you'll need it. Try a .357 same bullet as the 9mm but much faster. |
| Posted by: Redneck Jim 2012-08-25 11:33 |
| #9 My 10 round Israeli .45 with 2 mags was <$500 OTS. |
| Posted by: Skidmark 2012-08-25 10:50 |
| #8 ..but has a number of improvements that make the weapon more reliable, Anybody have their 45 fail on them? Well, at least one that wasn't buried in crap and rusty. |
| Posted by: Procopius2k 2012-08-25 08:19 |
| #7 There's the old story of the Texas lawman who was awsked by a reporter: "Why do you carry a .45 pistol?" "Cause they don't make a .46" |
| Posted by: M. Murcek 2012-08-25 08:10 |
| #6 From the Marine Corps Rules of Gunfighting: 24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4." |
| Posted by: Bangkok Billy 2012-08-25 04:30 |
| #5 yeah but the old .45 would only cost us $104.04 after they were fifty bucks a piece. Going Switzerland with weapons would be nice. |
| Posted by: newc 2012-08-25 03:43 |
| #4 Pistol shooting is a bit like sex. It has quite a lot to do with the operator. |
| Posted by: Besoeker 2012-08-25 01:55 |
| #3 About time! I have a Springfield Armory XD and a 1911A1. The latter is my favorite. Never had a malfunction yet. If they use Wilson 47D magazines, this weapon should serve the Marines well. |
| Posted by: Alaska Paul 2012-08-25 01:05 |
| #2 Plus parts and support are probably pert of the contract. |
| Posted by: tipover 2012-08-25 00:34 |
| #1 gromky, to get a 45 to shoot like a match gun and stay combat reliable ain't cheap. Hi tech coatings, aftermarket parts (or copies thereof), hand fitting and tuning. It isn't your old rack grade issue 45 from back in the day that grouped 4 inches at 10 feet... |
| Posted by: tipover 2012-08-25 00:33 |