You have commented 339 times on Rantburg.

Your Name
Your e-mail (optional)
Website (optional)
My Original Nic        Pic-a-Nic        Sorry. Comments have been closed on this article.
Bold Italic Underline Strike Bullet Blockquote Small Big Link Squish Foto Photo
-Short Attention Span Theater-
Doing the math for a new Constitutional Convention
2015-04-06
Can a group of states ban together for the first time since 1787 to change the Constitution at a convention? It all comes down to a matter of math and a few important numbers: 5, 27, 34, 38, 535 and 9.

The current debate is about a movement to call a convention of states to propose a balanced budget amendment, instead of leaving that task to Congress.

Article V of our Constitution lays out two ways to amend the current document. One way has been used 17 times since the 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights were ratified in 1791. So far, these 27 amendments have originated in Congress and been sent to the states for approval. Once three-quarters of the individual states ratify an amendment, it becomes the law.

The second method has never been used. It involves petitions from at least 34 states to call a constitutional convention, where one or several amendments are proposed. The amendment or amendments are then sent on to the states, where 38 states are needed for ratification.

If you are really interested in big questions involving constitutional conventions, there is an excellent overview available from Thomas Neale at the Congressional Research Service. It discusses the background of the Article V process and some current movements underway to bring some issues to national prominence using Article V.

Currently, the Balanced Budget Amendment Task Force, a group that tracks petitions, says there are 27 active petitions on this issue that have been filed with Congress. The group is targeting 13 additional states, hoping to get seven states to approve balanced budget resolutions. That magic number of 34 would force the 535 members of Congress to find even more creative ways to waffle act.

Among these 13 states -- Maine, West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona, Wyoming, Montana, Washington and Idaho -- 10 currently are controlled by the Republicans, according to the National Council of State Legislatures. So in theory, balanced budget proponents need to get seven of the 10 GOP-led states on board with passing amendment petitions.

But that is where the complications begin, once there is a widely recognized claim that two-thirds of the states have asked for a constitutional convention. For starters, some states could rescind their amendment applications as the quorum number gets closer to 34 states. Maryland is a Democrat-controlled state that has an active Balanced Budget petition, for example. And then are big questions about how the 535 members of Congress would handle the convention process.

"The Article V Convention presents many questions that Congress would be called on to consider, and perhaps answer, in the event a convention became a serious possibility. If so, Congress would not be without resources," said Neale from the CRS back in April 2014.

One immediate problem would be how Congress would acknowledge of the acceptance of the petitions as meeting the Article V requirement. Critics have pointed out that not all of the petitions have the same wording. Another issue would be the type of conventions called by Congress for the nomination and then ratification of an amendment or amendments.

Despite trying 22 times between 1973 and 1992, Congress wasn't able to approve legislative rules for a constitutional convention process. In the scenario of a balanced-budget amendment convention, Congress would need to establish who can attend the convention to finalize the wording of a single amendment -- or if such a convention can propose multiple amendments.

Then Congress would need to determine if state legislatures would ratify the new amendments or if an ad-hoc conventions of state residents would ratify the proposed amendments.

There are deep political and legal disagreements about these concepts, as well as the proper role of Congress in determining convention rules, so the issues could come down to number 9 -- as in the nine Justices of the Supreme Court.

But in one past case where the constitutional convention quorum was almost met, Congress settled the issue in 1912 by passing an amendment that would have been proposed by a national convention anyway.

The 17th Amendment was a direct action taken by Congress after states became concerned that the United States Senate appointment process was compromised or tainted. The amendment allowed for the direct election of Senators, and headed off a likely Article V convention.
Posted by:gorb

#8  Even Mao understood you had to control the countryside not the cities.

Is this the vast part of the country that liberal black south African comedians such as Trevor Noah try to make fun of (but don't quite pull it off? The part of the country where POTUS says the people like to hang onto their God, guns, and religion?
Posted by: JohnQC   2015-04-06 19:24  

#7  ..then there is no constitution or basis of legitimacy of power. It becomes an exercise in power. Which is why they desperately want to get guns out of the hands of the population. They can not afford one Concord bridge event in their application of force cause then they can only control what they can occupy and in this vast continental arrangement that's not much. Even Mao understood you had to control the countryside not the cities.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2015-04-06 18:19  

#6  OK. But what do you do when the president ignores the constitution?
Posted by: Ebbang Uluque6305   2015-04-06 17:31  

#5  ...sort of missed my comment did you? How many states do the socialists control? That's their problem. Concentrating on big city states leaves them crippling short of getting anything subsequently ratified. Heck they couldn't even get the Equal Rights Amendment passed in the heyday of 'liberalism'. Now they have to do it through judicial interpretation.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2015-04-06 16:47  

#4  Dear God, NO - the last thing we want is a Constitutional Convention. It would be the target of every death-or-glory liberal who could fly, walk, or crawl to the proceedings with their particular hobby horse. That would be after, of course, the Two Parties did their damnedest to stop it from happening in the first place. If you want to see the loss of every freedom we're still barely hanging on to, have a Convention.

Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski   2015-04-06 16:33  

#3  I do not trust the current Republican party to not f*ck this up.
Iblis, I pretty much trust them to f anything they touch up.
Posted by: Glenmore   2015-04-06 15:40  

#2  Any amendment from the convention still requires approval by the 3/4 of the states. I doubt the Donks will get much that will have any effect out of the convention.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2015-04-06 14:31  

#1  Been doing this calculation for years. We had better numbers after the 2010 election. Anyway, I do not trust the current Republican party to not f*ck this up.
Posted by: Iblis   2015-04-06 13:03  

00:00