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Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Kremlin Responds After Polish EU Official Says West Should Give Ukraine Nukes
2022-06-13
[ZERO] Starting in April, dangerous rhetoric related to regional nuclear aspirations began coming out of Poland - apparently directed as a 'threat' to Russia amid the invasion of Ukraine. Early that month, for example, ruling Polish party leader, Deputy Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski suggested that a "tougher" anti-Russian defense posture would include Poland being "open" to having nuclear weapons stationed in the country.

But this weekend has seen the rhetoric heighten even further, eliciting a fierce response from Moscow, when Poland's European Parliament Deputy and former Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski suggested that the West give nukes to Kiev. "The West has the right to give Ukraine nuclear warheads so that it can protect its independence," Sikorski said according to regional sources.
Posted by:Besoeker

#39  Only if the promise to use them.
Posted by: Woodrow   2022-06-13 21:26  

#38  Ok, Poodlyakety-Yak: We want you to lose. So you can stop draining our money. We're running out of it, and need it for our own country to deal with real threats.
Posted by: Billy Budd   2022-06-13 19:57  

#37  Talk about ungrateful little shits:

Zelensky's adviser, Mykhailo Podolyak, accused Western leaders of being reluctant to seriously address Ukraine’s gigantic disadvantage in long-range weaponry ...[while Ukraine's army] is being battered in fighting in the East.

And he suggested that some Western European countries, including France and Germany, were “hiding from the war.’’

“If you think we should lose, just tell us directly: ‘We want you to lose.’ Then we will understand why you give us weapons at this level,” Mr. Podolyak said in an interview in the presidential office compound in Kyiv.
Posted by: Billy Budd   2022-06-13 19:55  

#36   Y'all are worried about the wrong bear

Those who trusted the Democrats to follow their usual pattern, only more so, have been preparing since Mr. Biden was sworn in to office. No point in wasting energy worrying about the inevitable.

I can highly recommend Check Your Connections: How to Thrive in an Uncertain World by Robin Burk as a guide to thinking about the situation — I found it comforting to realize how many things I could already check off, or were already partway there.
Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 19:11  

#35   Against those odds let's see if the flower of the Russian army can advance two kilometers tomorrow.

Good lord, Matt — mono-molecular edges haven’t been invented in real life yet!

Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 18:52  

#34  regime change begins at home

Rick Scott says Biden 'destroyed America's economy' in ads calling on president to resign
Florida senator says: 'Joe Biden is unfit for office and should resign'
Posted by: Whaviting Fleting8645   2022-06-13 18:37  

#33  Y'all are worried about the wrong bear
Posted by: Whaviting Fleting8645   2022-06-13 18:08  

#32  What we've learned in the last few days from our visitors:

1- The Ukrainian leaders are stupid.

2- The Ukrainian army is down to about 40,000 old men and boys spread over a 1000 km front.

3- Those old men and boys are out of ammunition.

Against those odds let's see if the flower of the Russian army can advance two kilometers tomorrow.
Posted by: Matt   2022-06-13 17:47  

#31  Because the Ukrainian leadership are too stupid to admit they've lost and too mad to halt the slaughter.

It's not over until the fat lady sings. Face it, the Russian military performance has been pathetic and Ukrainians have fought them to a standstill.

I'll say one thing for you: The idea that Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union to its former glory has been thoroughly debunked. I mean, how's he gonna do that when he's bogged down in Donbass?

It's Putin who needs to seal this deal before Biden and his handlers do something we'll all regret.
Posted by: Abu Uluque   2022-06-13 17:28  

#30  British. It comes naturally to "him"
Posted by: Frank G   2022-06-13 15:29  

#29  ^ And you could have said that without being anti-Semitic about it.
Posted by: Matt   2022-06-13 14:59  

#28  "Gates of Vienna" refers to a false historical analogy that's been favored by neo-con trolls ever since 9/11. It was silly when it was applied to the Mideast Muslim terrorist challenge; it's totally ludicrous in this context.

Ukraine is not our ally and is not a part of the West. It's just a miserable kleptocracy on an African scale, one that only exists because of the stupidity and criminal incompetence of first Lenin, then Khrushchev
Posted by: Palmerston   2022-06-13 14:48  

#27  Confucius say, "Kindly refrain
From shaking her potentate's chain,
For the Bear's clumsy dance--
Er, great Russian romance
Could reduce her to China's Ukraine!"
Posted by: Unomosh Elmuper5821   2022-06-13 14:44  

#26  Seriously, Mr. Palmerston? What dumb reference did the deranged non-Jewish neocon loonies use?
Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 14:33  

#25  Observation: I see some civil, well-reasoned discourse in this thread, and some deflection and long-winded hand-waving.
Posted by: Bobby   2022-06-13 14:32  

#24  Whatever the West might aim, it looks like Ukraine’s is to become Russia’s Gates of Vienna.

A dumb reference beloved of deranged Jewish neo-conservative loonies during the fevered runup to the botched Iraq War. This absurd view of Russia as another one of the neo-cons' bêtes noires is the source of this disaster and the reason it continues beyond all reason,
Posted by: Palmerston   2022-06-13 14:24  

#23  OK, we got two questions on the table:

1- Has Russia won the war? I just skimmed the TASS website and don't see anything about that. You would think a banner headline would be in order.

2- What will happen to the Ukrainians who surrender or who are in territory that Ukraine gives up to buy peace? If the outcome is Katyn Forest or exile to Norilsk, why should Ukraine, or at least those Ukrainians, give up? It's a question relevant to the negotiation process.
Posted by: Avenatti   2022-06-13 14:22  

#22  #18 The Ukrainians have lost the war.

You keep saying that and yet the fighting continues.

Because the Ukrainian leadership are too stupid to admit they've lost and too mad to halt the slaughter. As has been pointed out, Jens Stoltenberg is urging them to negotiate. So are Lord Richards and other western military leaders.

Even Biden says the only point of further Ukrainian resistance is to "strengthen their hand at the negotiating table." Precisely the opposite is happening. Their hand is getting weaker by the day. Madness
Posted by: Palmerston   2022-06-13 14:19  

#21   The West does not seem to know what the aims of the Ukraine should be

Whatever the West might aim, it looks like Ukraine’s is to become Russia’s Gates of Vienna.
Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 14:18  

#20  General Lord Richards, former Head of the British Army, warned against the stupidities of the Iraq fiasco and again about the Syria debacle. He warned today in The Telegraph about the stupidity of the US and UK's Russia strategy, or lack thereof.

The West does not seem to know what the aims of the Ukraine should be
General Lord Richards
The Telegraph
10 June 2022

"Good strategy is about hard choices. As Chief of Defence Staff, my outstanding team devised a coherent Syria strategy which independent experts agreed had a good chance of leading to a successful strategic outcome.

Once again [as with the Iran and Afghanistan dusasters], political leaders were not prepared to align ends, ways and means with Washington going as far as to say that “the General’s plan is more than the market can bear”.

What “market”? Consequently, my advice was to let Assad win and quickly and to stop encouraging and supplying opposition groups with insufficient support to ensure their success. The price in deaths, ruined lives and destroyed cities would be too huge and a massive strategic setback for the West. Russia was already sensing an opportunity and so it proved.

A similar lack of a coherent strategy is now apparent in Ukraine.

There is, at best, what might be termed incremental strategy with again no early and decisive synchronisation of ends, ways and means. It is a “let’s see how it goes” “strategy”, in other words not really strategy at all. There is still little idea in London, Washington or elsewhere how “we” want the war to pan out, or what sort of Russia we are seeking to shape, especially on the vital long-term issue of relations with China.

Is there an opportunity, using carrots and sticks, to persuade a weakened Russia to align with the West rather than having it pushed ineluctably into China’s orbit? No one is thinking grand strategically because no one is brave enough to think beyond the political convention of the moment.

Posted by: Palmerston   2022-06-13 14:12  

#19  I thought they lost it in February when Putin executed a coup de main removing the existing regime and putting in place his own puppets. Oh, wait. Then it was the blitzkrieg in March to encircle and capture Kiev and do the same. Oh, wait. Then it was April or was it May, that the Ukrainians lost.

There is no end to this war. It's now generational. There will be lulls with paper signings and rearming, but its only time till it gets going again. This is now a blood match that Europe has always been host to in history.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2022-06-13 13:57  

#18  The Ukrainians have lost the war.

You keep saying that and yet the fighting continues.
Posted by: Abu Uluque   2022-06-13 13:46  

#17  First the question, chér Jean-Paul, then the counsel. How many Ukrainian civilians has Russia taken?

After all, all Russia had to do was not invade a neighbour and destroy the landscape, but they couldn’t even do that. Following the inevitable win, what will Russia have? Sanctions targetting Russia’s ability to buy the things needed to repair and rebuild, despite all the money piled up from sales of petroleum and other raw materials with which to pay for it all; accrued goodwill from Russia’s work in Syria and against the Russian portion of the worldwide jihadi network destroyed in a few short months; long term oil and gas customers turning to more trustworthy suppliers, while the replacement customers will need expensive investment in pipelines and equipment to feed the new markets; new distrust from near neighbours and those farther away that is resulting in all of them arming up instead of lying complacently under the American security umbrella — and none of them are buying weapons from Russia — which will make the planned next steps of reconquest harder. And worst of all, the world’s firm belief in the irresistible Russian army shattered beyond repair, making everything more difficult for Russia going forward, domestically as well as internationally.

Ukraine is being punished for its choices. But Russia is working hard for a Pyrrhic victory that she can ill afford.
Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 13:41  

#16  OK, I get it: When the US invades a country, that's naked American aggression. When Russia invades a country, that also is naked American aggression.
Posted by: Matt   2022-06-13 13:40  

#15  What kind of lawyer would advise his client to continue getting his people slaughtered and losing territory? How much more territory do you want them to lose? How many poor press-ganged "reservists" have to mutiny, and how many thousands need to be slaughtered

It's not about Ukraine. It's never been about Ukraine.

Instead, the neo-conservatives and the Democrats in Washington urged him to rip up Minsk, and provoke the Russians.

Now you got it! This was McStain and Miss Lindsey and the Nudelman cunt's latest neo-con crusade. Then Pelosi and Schiff and the Demorats saw a way to use Ukraine to try to link Orange Adolf with Russian Adolf.

And then Lloyd Raytheon and Lockheed and the other Beltway Bandits saw a chance to take in millions. And awayyyy they went.
Posted by: Spitch Uneretle6140   2022-06-13 13:02  

#14  the hotshot lawyer

Is this a joke? What kind of lawyer would advise his client to continue getting his people slaughtered and losing territory? How much more territory do you want them to lose? How many poor press-ganged "reservists" have to mutiny, and how many thousands need to be slaughtered, before this "lawyer" admits reality?

Zelensky's government could have retained 93% of what they claimed as Ukraine and almost all of its productive assets and territory, without sacrificing tens of thousands of their people.

All they had to do was make a serious, good-faith effort to honor Minsk -- to rein in their neo-Nazi terrorists, restore water to Crimea and to leave alone the Russians' base on that historically Russian and extremely pro-Russian peninsula.

Instead, the neo-conservatives and the Democrats in Washington urged him to rip up Minsk, and provoke the Russians.

If this represents the counsel of a "hotshot lawyer," then that's a rather strange definition of "hotshot." Perhaps a hotshot such as Michael Avenatti
Posted by: Jean-Paul   2022-06-13 12:55  

#13   @Matt: I understand your frustration, but it has no bearing on the facts of the situation. There is no alternative to a negotiated settlement that involves significant losses of territory

Several million nationals forcibly stolen to work in Russian factories and add their offspring to Russia’s falling population count is not merely an anodyne loss of territory, Jean-Paul. Please answer the hotshot lawyer’s question instead telling him not to worry his pretty head about it.

And given the destruction in the economically productive Donbas, one has to ask how much Russia will have to invest to make it productive again. Or does Russia really just care about removing competitors to their own factories, just as they only care about stealing the grain produced in Ukraine, and Ukraine’s subsequent ability to grow more, increasing the prices Russia can charge for its own harvest?

Posted by: trailing wife   2022-06-13 11:42  

#12  I thought "nonproliferation" was sorta up there with gerbil worming and LGBTQWERTYXYZ=/- as a gerbalist sacred cow. Well except for iran. Now it's a free-for-all.
Posted by: M. Murcek   2022-06-13 10:47  

#11  It was never about the best interests of the Ukrainians. This was a Washington neo-con obsession with another chance for a Forever War.

Then it morphed into a Democrat (Pelosi-Schiff etc) and Deep State get-Trump effort stoked by Ukrainian agents and arms dealers in DC: Chalupa, Igor Pasternak, Vindman etc
Posted by: Eohippus Whailing4247   2022-06-13 10:08  

#10  @Matt: I understand your frustration, but it has no bearing on the facts of the situation. There is no alternative to a negotiated settlement that involves significant losses of territory, at a minimum Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk.

Your anger should be directed at Zelensky and the Ukrainians' handlers in Washington.

I know it acts as a kind of therapy for you but really, there's no point in bashing the Russians: you're only increasing the pain and devastation suffered by the Ukrainians. The longer the war goes on, the more Ukrainians will be slaughtered and the more territory will be lost.
Posted by: Jean-Paul   2022-06-13 10:01  

#9  So, Jean Paul, at a guess how many Ukrainians will have to be sent to filtration camps for their own good? 2 million? Or is this going to be more like a Katyn Forest kind of thing?
Posted by: Matt   2022-06-13 09:54  

#8  Their readers are tired of the war and want to move on, but they're still printing lies: Media Tone Down Ukraine Hysteria - Continue To Print Falsehoods
Posted by: Cravilet Henbane6049   2022-06-13 09:35  

#7  Biden and the Democrats in the US have abandoned Zelensky. NATO's chief is urging negotiations. It's over.

Ukraine stories aren't even above the fold anymore. The American public doesn't give a shit about Zelensky or Ukrainians. It's a losing issue for the Democrats
Posted by: Cravilet Henbane6049   2022-06-13 09:30  

#6  The British tabloids' propaganda is laughable. Even the New York Times and Washington Post have abandoned their "counter-attack" myth. The only option now is negotiation. The only question is how much territory will belong to Russia.

Washington Post: Russia likely to seize all of Luhansk in coming days -- US official

The Times reports that the Ukrainians have withdrawn to Lysychansk. However, the center of Severodonetsk was occupied over a week ago, not yesterday.

Biden and the Democrats in the US have abandoned Zelensky. NATO's chief is urging negotiations. It's over.
Posted by: Jean-Paul   2022-06-13 09:22  

#5  Incredible infrared video shows Russian soldiers fleeing as drone with thermal sights drops bombs on their comrades in 'night hunt' – as Ukraine launches Donbas counter-attack
Posted by: Skidmark   2022-06-13 09:10  

#4   Their most valuable and economically productive territory, the Donbas, is lost.

So all this alarm and hand wringing over the world's grain supply was just the normal hysteria of the media.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2022-06-13 09:04  

#3  The lies and hysteria are catching up with Ukraine's propagandists. The Ukrainians have lost the war. Their most valuable and economically productive territory, the Donbas, is lost.

It was always a matter to be settled at the negotiating table, but last March, Biden, Nuland, Sullivan and the other leftovers from 2014 told Zelensky that he need not negotiate. He walked away from Minsk and declared he would seize Crimea.

Reality has finally set in. Not even NATO's Jens Stoltenberg is pretending any longer that Russia has not won the war and that no terroritorial concessions are necessary. Stoltenberg: "The [only] question is how much territory, how much independence...are [the Ukrainians] willing to sacrifice for peace."
Posted by: Jean-Paul   2022-06-13 09:00  

#2  Mr. Radoslaw is experiencing a severe stupidity moment here.

Hopefully it will pass.
Posted by: Mullah Richard   2022-06-13 08:30  

#1  Given that the Russians have directly or indirectly referred to using nukes (and not just in the Ukraine) in this situation draws a big 'so what'.
Posted by: Procopius2k   2022-06-13 08:28  

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