Lockheed Martin will pay the US government 37.9 million dollars to settle accusations that it inflated the cost of contracts for the US Air Force, the justice department said. The company was awarded $17 billion in defense contracts in 2002, up from $14.7 billion in 2001. And another $4 billion multi-year contract with the U.S. Air Force and the Marine Corps for the Hercules Aircraft for 2003.
The government also accused Lockheed Martin of purposely inflating a contract proposal for a foreign military sales contract under the Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) programme. The US government had hoped to sell the equipment to Saudi Arabia, Greece and Bahrain as a means of offsetting a cost over-run on another Air Force contract. Oops!
In announcing the settlement, Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler warned that Lockheed should be an example to other companies that try to overcharge government agencies. Sweet. Immunity from government penalties for abuse, as long as we keep them on the dole...
I know. Those are old contracts. But the yearâs not over yet.
The company reports 80% of its business is with the U.S. Defense and federal government. And, Boeing is banned from future rocket contracts...
#8
I'm not sure where Brittney's been but Madonna was with Dennis Rodman. As a comedian once said, I wouldn't shake hands with Dennis Rodman without a condom.
#9
Both of these twits are 'products' with the intellectual and cultural significance of a can of Diet Pepsi. If we ignore their marketing stunts and avoid buying their 'product' they'll eventually go away and get real jobs.
Posted by: Ned ||
08/29/2003 15:46 Comments ||
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#10
Even if all 1.5 dozen of us ignore them, the rest of the population won't.
Brittney has been on Justin Timberlake. Christina and Madonna have been to many places to count, and my eyes are hurting from seeing three bimbos attempt an orgy while singing.
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 16:42 Comments ||
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#11
It was a pretty tired stunt. They're both washed up.
Posted by: g wiz ||
08/29/2003 17:29 Comments ||
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#14
Saw it on the front page of the sun-times this morning. My first thought was "attempted mouth-to-mouth resuscitation of Madonna's flatlining career".
Credit where itâs due - this is pretty funny...
President George W Bushâs personal chef has been humiliated by a team of French practical jokers who tempted him with a job offer to desert his employer and go to work for President Jacques Chirac. The stunt, which is threatening to spiral into a diplomatic incident, happened when Walter Scheib visited Paris in his capacity as president of the Chefs des Chefs dâEtat, a club for those who cook for the worldâs heads of state.
On Wednesday evening he was due to attend a party at the Elysee Palace given by the French leaderâs wife, Bernadette. That afternoon a French television company dispatched a Mme Chirac look-alike to his hotel, the Plaza Athenee. The look-alike was accompanied by a producer, doubling as her secretary, and hidden cameras. When they arrived, the supposed secretary asked Mr Scheib to go to the hotel lobby as Mme Chirac needed to see him urgently about a very delicate matter. Mr Scheib arrived and greeted the look-alike warmly.
M Chirac, she said, was sick of French food. He had once mentioned that he liked calvesâ head and he had been eating snouts and lips at official dinners ever since. What he longed for was some good American cooking, hamburgers and barbecue. Would Mr Scheib agree to leave Mr Bush and come to work at the Elysee?
The jokers had been sent by Weâve Tried Everything, a daily early evening programme, which mixes interviews with pranks. Frederic Siaud, the editor-in-chief of the show, said Mr Scheib seemed overwhelmed by the offer. "He fell completely into the trap. He said, âI canât leave George Bush just like that, I must think, this is a great honour for meâ. But he did not refuse." The phoney Mme Chirac pressed him, saying her husband wanted a reply at the party in the evening, in three hoursâ time. Mr Scheib said he needed half an hour to think, if she could wait. "After 20 minutes, we thought he had almost decided to come over and work for the Chiracs," said M Siaud, "but one of the hotel staff recognised the producer and the joke was over." Mr Scheib, he added, "took it very badly. He was extremely angry and told us this was going to create a diplomatic incident".
Franco-American relations have plunged to their lowest point in decades over the war in Iraq but earlier in the week, Mr Scheib had been hailed for his tact by French gastronomes after he said he felt like a "young priest before the Pope" when he met the top French chefs. Half an hour after the prank was exposed, the Plaza Athenee told Mr Siaud that the chef had been on the telephone to the White House. In turn, Washington called the Elysee, which then asked France 2, the television station involved, not to broadcast the stunt. It has yet to make up its mind. The unfortunate Mr Scheib flew back to the United States yesterday. It would be a mistake to make a big issue of this - itâs happened, itâs over, everyone knows about it. Bush needs to laugh this one off.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
08/29/2003 9:49:08 AM ||
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#1
But the Secret Service doesn't have the same kind of tolerance for humor that the rest of us have. It will be a serious matter of loyalty and trustworthiness that we don't need food tasters for the head of state.
Posted by: Don ||
08/29/2003 9:56 Comments ||
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#2
I'm guessing Mr Schreib's going to be spending more time catering to the White House's four-legged occupants.
#3
What a fool. He's impressed by top French chefs but is willing to work for Chirac cooking the exact same stuff he cooks for Bush (burgers and barbeque)? Why would they need a special chef to cook burgers when they could go to the Paris McDonalds and hire one at minimum wage?
Why would they need a special chef to cook burgers when they could go to the Paris McDonalds and hire one at minimum wage?
Ahhh-HA! Got you, you imposter! If you were a real Yank, you'd know that McDonald's doesn't serve real hamburgers! You must be a dirty Froggie! J'accuse!
#5
I'm with bulldog: In a sense, this isn't an issue between Bush and Chirac, but between Mr. Scheib and these jokers, not to mention an issue between these jokers and Mme. Chirac, in whose name this "joke" was made.
Both of the nations involved believe in personal liberty: it's Mr. Scheib's right to seriously consider what he was lead to believe was a tempting offer to cook for the Head of State of the acknowledged Gastronomical Nation of the World, in it's captial, where he could rub shoulders with those who considers his peers and improve his skills. I'm chief programmer in my department, but I'd become a grunt coder at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center in the drop of a hat if it was offered. There ARE job moves that represent a quantum leap in a person's level of professionalism and how he's regarded amongst his peers, and this is one of them.
If anything, this shows the prevalent attitude toward the French that must be current in the White House: What kind of image of Chriac must be circulating there if this guy was seriously led to believe that Chriac secretly pined for the cuisine served at the Bush Ranch? There are hamburgers, and there are hamburgers, and Yank, of all people, should know that there is a difference. Even then, while Mr. Scheib's loyalty was severely tested, there is no evidence that would say that he would have positively accepted or refused. Any Secret Service agent or official who thinks this man's loyalty to the President is in question because of this needs to have his education extended beyond the fifth grade.
I recall an episode in Andy Griffith's "Mayberry" show, where a russian diplomat secretly came for talks with the State Department and was hosted at Andy's House. Negotiations went nowhere until Aunt Bee caught the Ruskie raiding the fridge. She sat him down and started cooking up a storm, since the food was being brought in by the State Department. Negotiations were moved out of the Parlor and onto the kitchen table, and were successfully concluded. The moral was obvious: There are earthly things and products of home and hearth that transcend politics and superpower nattering, such as a slice of darn good apple pie with a big scoop of vanilla ice cream on top. Murat and Aris are neo-trolls, IMHO, but if I can't forget our differences for the time it takes to sit down with them at a bountiful table and enjoy the food, regardless of its national origin, then *I* have lost it and have taken things far too seriously. We may differ on tactics and strategy, but the whole point of the War on Terror boils down to allowing ALL of us these golden moments without having to worry that the festivities would be interrupted by a genocidal bomber.
#6
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the Paris kitchen
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 12:30 Comments ||
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#7
I wonder if Bush is going to be eating really well over the next few weeks.....you know, "Sir, I have made the triple chocolate mousse you like so much....yes, the one that takes me three days to make....oh no, it was no trouble at all.....would you like chateaubriand or Peking duck tomorrow, sir?"
I thought I read somewhere that Ol' Jock Itch worked at a HoJo's when he was studying here in the states and actually got to like burgers. Maybe Mr Schreib heard that too and believed the offer to be genuine because of that.
Just make sure to get a copy for the annual staff Christmas party and let it go. You got to admit, it WAS a pretty good joke!
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 13:33 Comments ||
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#8
Much ado about nothing... except maybe identity theft. At least Yank is now exposed.
Posted by: Tom ||
08/29/2003 15:27 Comments ||
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#9
Angie Schultz, I don't know what they call a hamburger in Texas, what they call barbeque in Texas is nothing like the barbeque we have in California. Fact is a McDonald's hamburger is not all that different from an In & Out hamburger or a tiny White Castle burger for that matter.
I draw the line at England's own Wimpy burgers though, it didn't taste right.
#10
Mcdonalds and White castle hamburgers aren't the good kind. The good kind are the think, juicy burgers. The ones people make AT HOME.
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 16:31 Comments ||
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"Yank" says:
Fact is a McDonald's hamburger is not all that different from an In & Out hamburger...
Uh, huh. Sit down, son. I have some news that will startle you.
It is possible to go to restaurants where you don't shout your order into a clown's mouth and pick it up from another clown in a tiny window and eat it in your car. Yes! I know, I've done it. There are restaurants where you go in and sit down and someone comes to take your order and then you sit around bored until it comes. Sometimes those places have hamburgers, and they are generally very different from McDonald's hamburgers (which, by the way, are fine when you're pressed for time).
Furthermore, it is possible to go to a supermarket and buy real chopped up dead cow and make your own hamburgers. With a little effort you can get them to taste different than McDonalds'.
Otherwise, I would agree with Ptah if I could figure out what the hell he's talking about.
Did anyone notice this, from the article: Frederic Siaud, the editor-in-chief of the show...
Siaud, eh? Could that be an anagram for...Saudi???
#12
Maybe its me but I don't tend to order hamburgers in sit-down restaurants, at least not when steak or hotwings are available.
I hardly think the President's chef is gonna make a burger worth his pay and I hardly think a kid fresh out of McDonalds' kitchen is gonna do much worse either when he's freed up from the specific McDonalds' cooking rules.
PLus I'd love to hear what La Monde would say if Chirac hired a cook from McDonalds.
#13
Its a good scam. It reminds me of those Miami DJ's that keep making crank calls to Chavez and Castro.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/29/2003 20:42 Comments ||
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#14
Was this guy on the White House staff before W. moved in, did he work for W. while he was Gov, or was he hired off the street? I remember some talk about people being upset that W. wanted regular food, was that this same chef?
Maybe Chirac will give him a job for embarassing W.
#15
Mcdonalds and White castle hamburgers aren't the good kind. The good kind are the think, juicy burgers. The ones people make AT HOME.
Man, you guys are bunch of elitists. Le Big Mac used to be my favorite food until I discovered White Castle burgers by the dozen. (My roommate the elitist called them ratburgers).
At least three Afghan government soldiers were killed and a commander kidnapped overnight when suspected Taliban guerrillas attacked checkpoints close to the Pakistan border, an official said on Friday. A commander from the ousted hardline militia, toppled from power in Afghanistan in late 2001, said 15 Afghan government soldiers were killed in two raids. Ah, but who to believe?
Spin Boldakâs district deputy police chief Mullah Abdul Manan told Reuters, Taliban fighters attacked posts at Kanjasu and Shero Oba, both east of the border town of Spin Boldak, and at Bambul, southeast of the town. All are within a few kilometres (miles) of the Afghan-Pakistan border. Mana said three Afghan soldiers were killed when guerrillas attacked the posts with small arms and rockets, and one commander, Haji Wali Shah, was kidnapped. Four Taliban were wounded, but escaped towards Pakistan. The Afghan government says most Taliban fighters are crossing from Pakistan to carry out attacks, and blames Pakistan for not doing enough to stop them. Not doing anything, as far as I can see.
Mullah Abdul Samad, a Taliban commander, told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed location that 15 government soldiers were killed in the attacks. He also said one Afghan army vehicle was destroyed and one commander was kidnapped. According to Samad, nine Afghan soldiers were slain in Bambul and six in Kanjasu, but he did not know of any casualties at Shero Oba. I tend to believe the government figures, they have the dead while the taliban shot and ran away.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 2:05:38 PM ||
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Afghan soldiers were waging a fierce ground battle with entrenched Taliban fighters in southern Afghanistan after a night of heavy U.S. bombing that left many Taliban fighters dead. U.S. warplane began bombing two suspected Taliban positions in the Chinaran and Larzab mountains of Dai Chopan district in southern Zabul province, late Thursday, provincial intelligence chief Khalil Hotak told The Associated Press. The bombing ended at about 4 a.m., and some 500 local Afghan soldiers moved in on the Taliban fighters — who had taken up fortified positions in a deep mountain gorge and along a stream that runs through the area, Hotak said in a command center set up in Qalat, about 70 kilometers south of the fighting. Bomb all night and let Afghan infantry move in at dawn.
It was impossible to know the exact number of Taliban killed in the bombing and subsequent fighting, but Hotak said the number of fighters killed could be as high as 35. The U.S. military could not immediately be reached for comment. "The fighting was intense and we have inflicted heavy damage on the Taliban,ââ Hotak said. "Our forces counted 35 Taliban bodies.ââ As he spoke, Hotak received calls from commanders at the scene, barking back orders for the ongoing fighting. The fighting was still going on by mid-morning Friday, Hotak said. He said his forces believe hundreds of Taliban have taken up positions in the area, with at least 15 hideouts. Nice to have them on this side of the border.
Hotak said he had no word yet on fresh casualties among the Afghan soldiers. Four Afghan soldiers were wounded in fighting Thursday. Zabulâs governor, Hafizullah Hashami, said even before the most recent fighting that about 40 Taliban had been killed in an ongoing operation to clear out guerrillas hiding in the mountainous area. Afghan officials say they believe at least two prominent Taliban commanders, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah Shafiq, were leading the fighting in the area. Mullah Omar may have been here, but Iâll bet heâs back on his motercycle by now.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 10:02:52 AM ||
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Four Afghan soldiers were wounded in fighting Thursday.
I bet it does wonders for Afghan morale that the wounded are medevaced out. That's something the Taliban don't have access to.
Mullah Omar, supreme leader of Afghanistan's ousted Taliban movement, maybe is personally leading recent insurgencies in a southern border province, where Afghan and US troops are conducting a joint cleanup operation, a military official said on Thursday.
One can only hope...
Fierce fighting erupted around noon in the day between government troops, backed by US helicopters and jet fighters, and Taliban guerrillas in Dai Chopan district of Zabul province, said Haji Janan, a commander of the Afghan Army whose troops are involved in the operation. Four government soldiers were injured and two pickup vehicles destroyed in the clash, he told Xinhua through telephone, but giving no information on the casualties on the enemy side. US gunship helicopters and jet fighters heavily bombed positions of the Taliban fighters in the mountainous areas during the clash. Janan said that the recently increasing Taliban insurgencies in the area may be related to a possible existence of Taliban top leader Mullah Omar in the areas, without giving evidence for his claim.
What evidence would they need? His turban? His good eye?
Over 500 Taliban fighters were actively involved in attacks against government targets in recent days in some areas of Zabul province, which borders Pakistan. Some members of al-Qaeda network were probably among these Taliban fighters, according to the official. "We have monitored radio conversations in Arabic and Urdu languages these days in the area where we are carrying out the operation," Janan said.
That's a pretty good indication, I'd say. I hope their RDF is up to snuff — so to speak...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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Up to snuff-----Fred, thats rich.....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:13 Comments ||
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Maybe Omar has run out of idiots, I mean leaders, and is having to lead from the front for a change.
Arabic News story untouched by me:
Saudi Arabiaâs ambassador in Washington, Prince Bandar Bin Sultan yesterday met with the US Cice President Dick Cheney following a sudden meeting with the former US president George Bush on Wednesday amid tension in the Saudi-American relations because of the American accusations to Riyadh of not being tough enough with Islamists, and not controlling the border with Iraq, which resulted, according to Washington in crossings of foreign fighters and launch of military operations against the American forces.
Wow! Nice run-on sentence!
Prince Bandar had with President Bush, the father, lunch in the state of Main, where the Bush family has a vacations house. The spokeswoman for Bush the father, Jane Baker, confirmed that the meeting took place but she added it was a special meeting and refused to give additional detail. Hummm.
The former US President, Bush the father, had old relations with Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador in Washington. Following the heated statements, in which the Richard Armitage, US Deputy Secretary of State, accused Saudi Arabia of permitting Islamist fighters to cross the border to Iraq, a joint intelligence unit was announced this week to be established in Riyadh to fight the financing "terrorist organizations" in what was considered a step to alleviate tension in the relations between the two countries. Itâs the sudden lunch in Maine that interests me. Back channel, unofficial, but with a former president who is the father of the current president. What better place to pass along some bad news where no one can overhear. Interesting.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 3:41:13 PM ||
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This is fuel for the Bush-Saudi-All About the Oil conspiracy peace protester crowd.
Fortunately, the real truth has been revealed: Bush the father, had old relations with Prince Bandar
eeeeeeeeuuugggghhhwwww.
Old people doin it is so gross.
#2
Am I the only one who feels the sudden urge to smack Anonymous in the face?
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 16:44 Comments ||
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#3
Perhaps they were explaining the circumstances which could bring US jets and bombers back to Soddy, and it isn't to protect the Princeling's pampered asses?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 16:48 Comments ||
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#4
Chuck: Why? It's sure as hell what I was thinking...
Hell, at least Bandar wears a dress.
Posted by: Mitch H. ||
08/29/2003 16:53 Comments ||
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#5
Was this translated from the original French?
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
08/29/2003 18:53 Comments ||
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#6
The paragraphs have the length and intricacy of a Joseph Conrad novel, but without the quality. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 19:27 Comments ||
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#7
Its a good sign that Suadi Arabia is not getting all it wants though normal channels.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/29/2003 20:44 Comments ||
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The Saudi government challenged the Bush administration Tuesday to prove its claims that Saudi citizens have traveled to Iraq to fight American troops, and said US forces have failed to secure their side of the border. "We are very concerned about this issue because we would like to take action,'' Saudi foreign policy adviser Adel al-Jubeir said in an interview with The Associated Press. "But we have no evidence of Saudis crossing into Iraq and we have received no evidence from the US government.''
Perhaps we could mail their heads back to Riyadh?
Al-Jubeir said his government has offered to send its own team of investigators to help US officials identify any possible Saudi expatriate who may have come through other countries, like Iran, or who made it through the porous, desert borders between Iraq and the Saudi kingdom. "We are willing to send a team to Iraq to look at any evidence they might have,'' he said. "Saudi Arabia is determined to fight terrorism and to prosecute terrorists regardless of where they are.'' Al-Jubeir was reacting to comments by Bush administration officials over the last few days suggesting some foreign fighters have crossed from Saudi Arabia and other countries to help fight the American occupation in Iraq through sabotage, and attacks on soldiers.
"Yankee-19, we got 750 guys named al-Ghamdi holed up in a religious school, shootin' at everything in sight."
"Roger, Yankee-28. Try to hold 'em for another few minutes. We got a Soddy delegation on the way to give 'em a stern talking-to..."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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They still don't want to admit that 15 of the 19 responsible for 11 September were Saudis, either. I'd be more shocked if they were willing to admit that some of them might be from that bizarrely inbred place.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 5:11 Comments ||
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How about a smoking, burnt out bus 50 yards from the border, nose pointed toward Baghdad?
The flying mud claims its first victim, and itâs a very big fish: (the unsmiling) half of the Blair symbiont. Alastair Campbell is to resign as the governmentâs director of communications and strategy. Mr Campbellâs decision was announced by Downing Street shortly after 1430 BST on Friday. He said: "It has been an enormous privilege to work so closely in opposition and in government for someone I believe history will judge as a great transforming prime minister." Nope, sorry.
Mr Campbell said his family had paid a price for his role and said his partner, Fiona Millar, would be leaving No 10 at the same time "in a few weeks". Mr Campbell [said] he planned to write, broadcast and make speeches, but did not want to take on "another big job". Tony Blair paid tribute to his media chief, saying he was "an immensely able, fearless, loyal servant of the cause he believes in who was dedicated not only to that cause but to his country ... he was, is, and will remain a good friend." The dramatic announcement comes amid the Hutton inquiry into the death of weapons expert Dr David Kelly. Mr Campbell gave evidence to the inquiry last week over the BBC report that Downing Street had "sexed up" the Iraq arms dossier. Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott said Mr Campbell had been talking to him for the last 12 months about resigning. Pure, unadulterated coincidence then...
No successor for Mr Campbell has been named and no departure date has been set. Mr Campbell started working with Mr Blair after he became Labour leader in 1994. He became the prime ministerâs official spokesman after Labourâs election victory in 1997. He moved to his role as communications director in 2001.
Posted by: Bulldog ||
08/29/2003 10:05:53 AM ||
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So far its looking like Blair/Campbell were right. I think the BBC will go down on this one, and the tories will go down too if they stick to this attack.
#2
The Tories will go down if they stick to what attack, LH? And go down where?! This is Red Beeb versus Red Blair. I'm rooting for neither.
The government were right over the dossier, but Campbell's got his just deserts. There will be very few tears shed in Westminster tonight, especially so in Campbell's own party. All Blair's closest friends and allies have now gone under or fallen on their swords. No more fall guys left...
#3
Bulldog, the folks at Samizdata have posted things which would imply the humiliation HMG is taking in the Hutton Inquiry and other events will not only fatally wound HMG but also take down the pro-Euro forces. What is your opinion on that?
Posted by: Brian ||
08/29/2003 11:15 Comments ||
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#4
There exist no significant pro-EU forces in the British political scene; Tony Blair wants Britain to take what could have otherwise been its place in the center of the EU, but his only chances of doing that with the British anti-continental climate is to sabotage the EU until he turns it meaningless. He wants his country to keep up with the EU, but his only chance of doing that is slowing down the rest of the continent, not speeding up his own nation.
That's not a pro-EU position. Wanting the EU harmed so that your own nation can keep up isn't a pro-EU position. That's like saying that Al-Qaeda is a humanitarian society because it wants to take down the rest of the world to the level of Afghanistan.
(and yeah, yeah, I know I'm making a huge hyperbole here. No accusations of trolling, please, or detailed explanations of how I'm wrong in this point.)
The Tories may have a much more honest attitude where the EU is concerned. They will not want to follow the rest of the continent, but hopefully they will not place such big hurdles on our path either.
#5
In essence, you're right, Aris, from your perspective politically and geographically. Blair wants Britain to be at the heart of a workable Europe, in spite of the widespread public opposition to greater European integration.
Many pro-European Europeans want to dive in at the deep end, immersing themselves in fiscal unity and a sea of unifying legislation, as they expect the EU will save them from their own inept politicians and systems of government. For us, European relations are a necessity and an asset, but no 'solution' to domestic problems. We don't need the EU, whereas you think you do.
Edited with disdain:
In the most startling figures yet, French health officials said Friday that 11,435 more people died during the sweltering first two weeks of August than during the same period in recent years. The number far exceeded the governmentâs initial estimates of the death toll from the blistering heat and was 4,200 more deaths than France suffered in road accidents in the whole of 2002. From Aug. 1-15, when much of Europe baked in record temperatures, nearly 800 more people died each day in France than usual, according to the figures from the Health Ministry. "These figures were calculated in an extremely precise manner," said Gilles Brucker, director of the Health Surveillance Institute that put the death toll together. The toll embroiled the center-right government in fresh accusations that it reacted too slowly to the crisis. Many victims were elderly, dying alone at home or in overwhelmed hospitals and nursing homes. "dying alone at home", remember that statement.
In a statement, the Health Ministry did not directly link the death toll to the heat and called the figures "provisional." But a ministry spokeswoman, Annick Gardies, conceded that "many" deaths were due to the extreme temperatures. Gardies said some could have died from hyperthermia, which means their body temperature exceeded 104 degrees Fahrenheit, while chronically ill people could have been weakened by the heat and killed. The heat is feared to have killed more than 2,000 people elsewhere in Europe. The highest official estimates came from Portugal, with 1,300 deaths, and the Netherlands, with 500-1,000. In Britain, there were 907 more deaths registered during the week ending Aug. 15, compared with the average for the period from the previous five years, the Office for National Statistics said. Britain - 907, Europe(minus France)- 2,000, France - 11,435
The Health Department said there was "no way of knowing" if the heat wave caused the rise in deaths, although it was "fair to assume" that some resulted from the high temperatures. No kidding.
August is the traditional month for summer vacation in France, and many have accused families of leaving their elderly relatives at home during the heat. Doctors have cited heat stroke and dehydration as often the cause of death. Packed their bags and went off on holiday leaving grandma and grandpa to die slowly alone. Over 11 thousand dead in France. In an average year, 175 Americans die from extreme heat, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Web site. Tell me again why we should respect French opinion on anything.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 1:39:01 PM ||
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Look at the bright side of it, Steve. They have an extra room when they return from vacation. Perhaps for the wine collection.
My father lives in France and is ill. Thus has to go hospital for a week or so. A month back he did this before. He had the op and was left attached to a bank of monitors alonmgside 51 other patients. The nurses spend there time in a control room watching the screens for flatlines. After couple of days recuperation he asked if he could use the shower, no problem came the response from the cardiologist.. Consternation in the control room. There are 2 baths and one shower for 51 people. However no patient had ever asked to wash before, so the three rooms were store cupboards. After half an hoursâ work the shower was freed for use. Great thought father, human again.
When he asked the next day his request was greeted with a polite but stone faced refusal, the storeroom was back in operation.
#2
Narcissism and socialized medicine combine to form a deadly brew. Pretty disgusting.
A thought, I wonder how the heat related death rates ran with the native French versus the enclaves of Muslim immigrants. Hmmmmm, I wonder...
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 15:34 Comments ||
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I read in a blog somewhere that a lot of the old folks in Paris stayed alive by camping out at the local McDonald's which are air conditioned, have cheap (although imperialist) food and ice in the water. The French are naturally wondering how to spin this.
#4
I was in Chicago for the big heat wave of 1995, and our critical care program took care of a number of the victims. The s--t hit the fan over the number of deaths (~ 600). Mayor Daley had to do a major mea culpa and completely revamped the city's shelter program for seniors. In a word, he took responsibility and fixed the problem. Wonder if there is anyone, anyone at all in France who will do the same?
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 15:54 Comments ||
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#5
This should work out well for France in the long run.....10,000 less pensioners that the welfare state has to pay off, the Unions can continue on with their 10 hour work weeks and 6 month vacations and can continue to retire at age 35 or whateverthefuck nonsense those socialist mafia type have going on.
#6
Amazing. France goes on vacation and lets their unattended elderly croak from heat stroke. It also appears many of the vacationers couldn't even be bothered to cut short their holidays to retreive their relatives from the morgues. What a disgusting and rotten society!
Remember how these 10,000+ old folks died and were left to rot next time the French say ANYTHING negative about America. This will always be something to throw back in their hypocritical, cynical, amoral, duplicitous, sneering faces.
Posted by: Ned ||
08/29/2003 16:06 Comments ||
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#7
Consider it done, Ned.
On the bright side, many of the elderly that died probably fought for France in WW2 against the Nazi occupation. Isn't it great to see the thanks their nation gives them?
( Sarcasm. Heavy sarcasm. )
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 16:55 Comments ||
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#8
Chuck, thank you for reminding me why socialized medicine sucks it for beer money.
The part about no French patient ever asking to wash was pretty funny, though...
#9
If about 600 people died in the Chicago heatwave--extrapolate to the population of France....2.7 million people in Chicago vs 59.6 million in continental France = 13,200; so I guess the French did better than Second City!
http://www.insee.fr/en/ffc/pop_age4.htm"> Many of the people died in nursing homes which were understaffed with LPN type nurses who didn't recognize the symptoms of hyperthermia--as it is so rare in a northern climate. One home lost 10 out of 79 residents--having only 4 LPN's one nurse--and of course an administrator. HTTP://www.lemonde.fr/article/0.5987,3226--331511-,00.html
Shame on all of you for using this tragedy to bash the French one more time!
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
08/29/2003 17:12 Comments ||
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#10
Yeah, I'm ashamed. Yeah... really.
They still suck, by the way. There's just less of them.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 12:20:33 AM ||
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#1
Sounds like it's time to change the GAC filter on the water at the Perrier bottling plant.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:24 Comments ||
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#2
Says a lot about a politicians upbringing if he had never stooped to eating in a pizzeria,like the common folk.
Wonder if he(by chance)happened to partake of that commoners libation,beer?
Britain is today seeking to head off attempts by France and Germany to forge ahead with an independent European military initiative that it fears will weaken Nato. British officials will tell European Union colleagues in Rome that any planning for European military operations must be carried out strictly under the auspices of the Atlantic alliance. "Because, you know, weâd like to see whatever we do actually WORK."
Paris and Brussels have called for the EU to plan and mount its own operations. They have backing from Belgium and Luxembourg - which form part of what pro-Nato critics call the "gang of four" of EU countries who opposed the US-led invasion of Iraq. What military juggernauts we have here! France: Foreign Legion good, rest of French army okay. Brussels: no army. Lux: no army. Belgium: very substandard army. Just what they need: combine the four of these!
Britainâs proposals in response, submitted at the request of the Italian EU presidency, agree that the EU should be able to plan operations, but only from Natoâs headquarters near Mons, Belgium, still called Shape (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) as it was at the end of the second world war. Where they still remember how to plan things!
British officials admit that the central idea of a document entitled Food for Thought is deliberately intended to undercut the Franco-German-Belgian idea for an independent EU "planning cell" in Tervuren, a suburb of Brussels. They warn that the Franco-German drive will annoy the Americans and create unnecessary duplication between the EU and Nato.
Britain and France jointly pioneered the idea of EU defence after the 1999 Kosovo war highlighted the yawning military gap between the US and Europe. Progress has been made in setting up new institutions and procedures and modest peacekeeping missions have been mounted in Macedonia and Congo. Plans are also under way to create a 60,000-strong rapid reaction force. With no heavy air or sea lift to transport it anywhere, er, rapidly.
It had been hoped the EU could also take over the far larger Nato-led peacekeeping force in Bosnia next year, but that is now in doubt. Oh, it was never in doubt here at Rantburg.
Amid tensions between Paris and London, British officials are frustrated that the Franco-German plan - initially seen as an empty gesture after the divisions of the Iraq crisis - is still being pursued.
Defence is one of the most controversial items in the EUâs draft constitution, which is due to be finalised in negotiations between all 15 member states starting in October. Controversial only in principle, since there will be little money for it in practical terms.
Britain opposes proposals by the "gang of four" for a "solidarity clause" for victims of armed aggression, similar to Natoâs article 5 on mutual defence. Tony Blair has described this as one of Britainâs "red lines". He can count on the support of Nato loyalists such as the Netherlands, Poland, Spain and Denmark as well as neutral or non-aligned states.
It is a sensitive issue in Britain, as the Conservatives argue that any sort of EU defence initiative will damage Nato. Geoffrey Van Orden, Tory defence spokesman in the European parliament, said: "None of this makes any military sense: it is pure politics and the loser will be the transatlantic alliance and Britainâs wider security interests.
"The French are likely to agree the trivial British proposal for a âdedicated EU planning cellâ while giving up none of their own ambitions. We are then likely to face the worst of both worlds - an EU trojan horse inside Nato as well as expanding and duplicative EU structures outside." That âbout pegs it.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 12:11:13 AM ||
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#1
NATO is a dead soldier after the Turkey defence request fiasco. Anything with France attached to it will act and smell like a Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Roadâ¢. A Coalition of the Willing, or bilateral agreements would be better while Old Europe sorts it all out. 60,000 troops with no lift capability is alot of troops, but it isn't much compared to say, an invasion of Iraq.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:22 Comments ||
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#2
When France gives up control of its nukes,then I'll believe in the tooth fairy...er,the EU.
Posted by: Stephen ||
08/29/2003 1:05 Comments ||
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#3
NATO is a dead soldier after the Turkey defence request fiasco.
Maybe it is time to reshape the NATO since it lost its actual meaning as a defence pact against the Soviets. If NATO specifications do not fulfil the current needs it is doomed anyway.
Posted by: Murat ||
08/29/2003 3:25 Comments ||
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#4
Wasn't it a British general who said the purpose of NATO was to "keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down"?
Is there any way to kick France out? I'm starting to think the best thing that DeGaulle ever did was pulling France out of NATO. Imagine the Cold War if they would have been in....(shudder)....
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 4:43 Comments ||
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#5
BY, it was NATO's first Secretary General, Lord Ismay.
#6
Murat hit the nail on the head. What the heck IS the mission? Once you decide THAT, THEN you develop political and military structures to carry it out.
#8
The "open door" approach to NATO membership should certainly be scrapped. In that respect it's got the same basic flaw as the UN - it's not really respected by its members. There need to be standards of behaviour, and a binding promise of commitment with painful consequences, including expulsion, for those who only intend to play ball when it suits their own national or personal interests.
Especially since NATO's original raison d'etre has ceased to exist, we can be more choosy about who's in the club.
#10
I also agree with Murat's sentiments. But NATO has been valuable for a long time and should be preserved. Governments change, I think the correct move forward is to try to change the french government through peaceful means.
Foreign countries sponsor groups in the US - how about we sponsor groups in France that support greater unity with NATO (and less america bashing)
#11
If you cannot trust your allies to stand by you in wartime (as both Turkey and US found out) then NATO is worthless. Let the Europeans turn their NATO assets into a Euro army if they want, let them defend themselves. Perhaps some reevaluation of their socialist budgets will benefit everyone.
#12
While NATO's main mission,the containment of Russian communism,has been achieved,it still fills many vital roles for both US and European nations.NATO provides frequent and discreet sounding boards for member gov't.s.With constant interaction between military forces,both a more realistic appraisal of capabilities is available,and,mutual deployments out of NATO work much smoother.For pr/diplomatic/practical purposes,NATO offers a more acceptable(to US)alternative to UN peacekeeping forces.
AS Britian is well aware,if NATO is replaced by a EU force,the US will no longer be involved in Europe and will probably withdraw from UN as well,as US would become more likely to deal with countries 1-on-1,instead of through multinational bodies.IF this should happen US foreign policy would become completely unpredictable.Unfettered with alliances,disinterested in non-US opinion,US policy would be driven solely by domestic politics.(President A likes country B,next President hates them.President approval down,bomb somebody.)
Posted by: Stephen ||
08/29/2003 11:36 Comments ||
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#13
"...US foreign policy would become completely unpredictable."
I thought that was both i) already the case, and ii) impossible (as the US always, predictably, does the "wrong" thing), in the quantumesque world of continental US-opinion.
#14
"AS Britian is well aware,if NATO is replaced by a EU force,the US will no longer be involved in Europe and will probably withdraw from UN as well,as US would become more likely to deal with countries 1-on-1,instead of through multinational bodies."
Au contraire, mon frere.
All NATO's main missions as defined by Ismay remain, Russians out, Germans down, Americans in. If the French and the Germans do their M&A thing, then an alliance between Fremany and Russia poses a real threat to all the countries in between. They were happy to do it in '39 and they'll do it again if we're not there. Anyone who thinks Europe has become a peaceful continent is at least 100 years premature in their assessment. The US cannot allow another general war to break out in Europe and will retain occupation troops there in whatever guise is most palatable for the forseeable future.
As for the UN, the wisdom of Lyndon Johnson is operative, better to have them in the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. No President will pull out of the UN until after the first nuke is detonated in the US.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
08/29/2003 12:08 Comments ||
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#15
I see yet again the standards of British Journalism. The "Gang of Four" being comprised of Belgium, Paris, Luxembourg and Brussels. Nobody told them that Brussels is in Belgium, did they? Or that Berlin (aka Germany) should be named as the fourth member of the "Gang of Four" in reality, not "Brussels".
"They warn that the Franco-German drive will annoy the Americans"
Oh my, the Americans shall be annoyed. That's the everlasting fear of London, not to annoy the Americans. And its everlasting goal is this: to sabotage the Union.
Anyone still surprised why I despise the UK?
Get the hell out, UK, and stop playing the Trojan Horse for the rest of us!
"Amid tensions between Paris and London, British officials are frustrated that the Franco-German plan - initially seen as an empty gesture after the divisions of the Iraq crisis - is still being pursued."
Actually British officials are frustrated that the EU still tries to exist and that non English-speaking people still strive for unity despite all British sabotage. (Unity between Anglos good, you see - unity between non-Anglos bad)
"and create unnecessary duplication between the EU and Nato."
Same way that the UK army is an unnecessary duplication of the US army?
"Britain opposes proposals by the "gang of four" for a "solidarity clause" for victims of armed aggression, similar to Nato's article 5 on mutual efence. Tony Blair has described this as one of Britain's "red lines". "
And that's why I hate, hate, *hate* the UK.
You toadies that were *so* much annoyed by France not being willing to offer troops to "protect" Turkey, how you can fucking support UK when it clearly refuses to protect the rest of us?
On the other hand UK was of course all in favour for the clause of solidarity concerning *terrorist* attacks. Because obviously they have to *fear* terrorist attacks. But for small countries like Greece or Cyprus which are more afraid of *armies* attacking them, not terrorists... Britain is not only unwilling to defend her so-called allies, is not only after a *individual* opt-out for its nation, it wants to prevent everyone else from coming to our aid either.
We should have never helped you in the War of Terror, as we did indeed help you and you keep on forgetting. Because your memories are short, and so is your gratitude.
F#&K YOU, Britain.
Duplicates NATO??? Cyprus is not a part of NATO, and for that little lapse in memory, another big F#&K YOU, Britain!
#17
"I see yet again the standards of British Journalism. The "Gang of Four" being comprised of Belgium, Paris, Luxembourg and Brussels."
Aris, try reading the article before you come out with your smartassery: they refer to Paris and Brussels as seats of government (France's and, in this case, the EU's - I'm surprised you didn't realise that, given your constant and unshakeable worshiping of the place), not members of the gang of four. "Belgium" refers to the nation, "Brussels" refers to the EU. Of course the gang of four includes Germany, you tool. Then again, if you rely on al Grauniad as your paper of record for the UK (as I suspect you do), I can't blame you for having a low opinion of that particular train of British journalism.
"That's the everlasting fear of London, not to annoy the Americans."
Sure Aris, we should be pissing off the Yanks! I forgot that's only thing most of Europe considers definitive political philosophy. After all, what do we have to thank Washington for? I mean, it's not as though Europe owes the US a huge historical debt or anything, is it?
The rest of your rant is amusing, but largely incomprehensible, otherwise I'd comment.
#18
Bulldog> It's pretty simple. Greece never had any problem with a solidarity clause that enforces member nations to offer support in case of terrorist attacks.
Britain has however a huge problem with a solidarity clause that forces member nations to offer support in case of *military* attacks.
Because obviously Britain doesn't *need* such support in case of military attacks. Who will attack her? Iceland?
It's us small weak border nations who need to spend 6% of our economy's GDP and one or two years of each of our male citizens' lifes for defence purposes.
The British attitude is called vile backstabbing in my book.
Let's have it, once again: #&K YOU, Britain!
And read the article again. Read the yellow comment to that article as well. Both journalist and original poster seem to refer to the four in question as being "Brussels, Paris, Luxembourg and Belgium". "Combine the four of these" The original poster said, Germany kinda forgotten.
And huge historical debt? Yeah, it's not as if any Greeks fought and died in WW2, right? It was only the Anglosaxons fighting on behalf of the rest of us.
Whatever. I accept a historical debt towards all the people who fought against the Axis in that war, who ensured the future we enjoy. I don't accept biased historical debts against only *one* of our allies, completely ignoring the sacrifices of others.
#19
There's a mutual defence clause that's a requisite of NATO membership. Is Greece a NATO member? Then the UK is obliged to defend Greece, and vice versa. What the hell are you driveling on about?
And you're quite simply wrong about the Brussels/Belgium issue. Maybe it's your English or your unfamiliarity with British terms of reference. When a British journo writes "Brussels", he's referring to the EU, not Belgium, 99% of the time. It's a given. That the original poster, being from across the pond, didn't see that doesn't surprise me too much, but I'd have thought you'd see. Are you going to continue denying the obvious? Even a Guardian writer would know Brussels isn't a nation.
So Greece could have got by OK without the Americans? Even we couldn't, back when we were the only free country in Europe resisting Germany during WWII (so much for Britain's backstabbing habits, you loathsome ingrate), so I fail to see how Greece owes nothing to the the allies, primarily the US. How many Britons are buried on Greek soil, having died fighting your enemies? We've not got too many Greeks in ours. So which of the allies are you prepared to thank? You say FUCK BRITAIN and PISS OFF AMERICA. Fuck Greece, Aris 'cause if you're typical, you didn't deserve a drop of allied blood for your liberation.
And you've forgotten WWI, and the Cold War? Europe owes the US its freedom, and nothing less.
#20
Hmm... trying to figure out what poor Aris is actually for. This whole discussion is puzzling to most Americans... like listening to two factions debate the metric system ("Millibars!" "NO, kilopascals, you FOOL!").
So Britain is required to help the EU protect fringe states from attack.
Britain sucks because they won't join the EU. Therefore, the EU doesn't need them.
Britain also sucks because the EU needs them, but they won't join the EU.
Britain is a trojan horse for the US, who wants to destroy the EU.
So, to sum up, the United States is going to attack Europe's fringe states, who require the British to put a stop to this.
Blast. They're on to the whole scheme. Condi, call the choppers back while there's still time...
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/29/2003 13:42 Comments ||
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#21
As far as metric goes, I'm all for it. Best idea France ever exported by miles, give or take an inch.
#23
"As far as metric goes, I'm all for it."
Only widespread use of the metric system here is in the late night pharmaceutical import business, the ones that deal in kilos and grams :)
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 14:15 Comments ||
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#24
Our backstreet pharmacists deal in pounds and ounces, at least at the shop front side of things. Everything else's a case of pick and choose, except road signs where distances are measured in miles and heights aregiven in metres and centimetres. Weatherwise: you choose between Fahrenheit or Celcius/centigrade (though winds prefer their speed measured in mph). Shopping, officially everything's metric though often measures are displayed in both systems. People have gone to prison for selling housewives a pound (rather than 0.454 kg) of bananas.
I'd keep miles for now, but otherwise give me metric: it's so much easier.
#25
"There's a mutual defence clause that's a requisite of NATO membership. Is Greece a NATO member? Then the UK is obliged to defend Greece, and vice versa. What the hell are you driveling on about?"
But as I said before (and you didn't bother to read) Cyprus is not a part of NATO, and for that little lapse in memory, another big F#&K YOU, Britain.
"So Greece could have got by OK without the Americans?"
No. The point is that Greeks and Americans fought together. (And then we got backstabbed for it, as I've said before, but that's another discussion.)
When you shed blood for a common cause there exists no debt from one to the other. It has been already paid in that blood.
Mark IV> To make it plain enough for your mind to understand. Britain sucks because the only reason it's in the Union is because it wants to sabotage it.
"So Britain is required to help the EU protect fringe states from attack."
No, it could have chosen for a defense opt-out as Denmark did. Did you ever see me bitch about Denmark? Ofcourse not. Simply opting out for a defense pact is an honorable, respectable thing to do. You don't want involved. Fine, it's your right not to be involved.
But Britain wants further than that, it doesn't want *any* defense clause in the EU, not even one that doesn't influence Britain itself one tiny bit. "Because the Americans will get annoyed", Britain says. Now *that's* an attitude for a sovereign nation to have!
"Britain sucks because they won't join the EU. Therefore, the EU doesn't need them.
Britain also sucks because the EU needs them, but they won't join the EU."
Let me guess: you've lived in a cave for all these years and don't know that Britain is (in name atleast) already part of the EU, for decades now? And then you come in here and join a political discussion about Britain and EU, and use that arrogant tone with me, you who know nothing about European politics, towards me who's followed EU happenings for years and years now?
"Britain is a trojan horse for the US, who wants to destroy the EU."
Actually I don't give a damn whether Britain wants to destroy the EU for the US or for its own benefit, it's enough for me that she wants to destroy it.
#26
Does Greece owe the US anything for her propping up of western Europe post-war, in order to contain the soviets, who would have had Greece for breakfast without US presence in Europe? No blood spilt, but only because someone was staring down Russia on your behalf. Will you thank anyone for that?
And as far as Greek's fighting side-by side with the Americans, I don't think that happened much. It didn't need to, because the allies were tying down Germany fighting on the Western front from Holland to Italy, as the Russian steamroller swept the axis armies from your back yard. Greeks fought side by side with the Brtish, who you now offer "fuck off" to by way of a courtesy. And it the Greeks had spent less of their energies on fighting each other and more fighting the Germans and Italians with the British who tried to organise your resistance, we could take your fighting side-by-side glorifications more seriously.
"I don't give a damn whether Britain wants to destroy the EU for the US or for its own benefit, it's enough for me that she wants to destroy it."
No, Aris, Britain wants to destroy you. Now there's a much more impressive persecution complex for you to adopt. Try it.
#27
Aris, most of us are well aware of Britain's ambiguous status re:EU. I think of them as a good family watching the old neighborhood deteriorate, still having to run the shop, and unable to move.
Meantime we read your wild rants on the subject, as though Xerxes were just off your coast, and wonder what the fuss is about. It's fun.
I think EU is a necessary evil for Britain and they are just trying to keep their share of business while waiting for EU's contentious and excitable membership to implode. Seems like all the grander schemes for the Union involve transferring funds out of Britain, and I wonder if it seems that way to the Brits, too?
It's more like watching soccer, than metric measurement. A sport where you can't use half the human body, to run about for hours with little or no scoring, after which the fans (who CAN use their fists) beat one another senseless. Americans are not sophisticated enough to understand it all, but we can still have a good time with it.
The humor relieves the bitter, tedious unimportance of it all.
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/29/2003 15:13 Comments ||
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#28
And Aris, re. Cyprus, where was the Greek element of the Falklands task force? Are we quits yet, are we?!
#29
Bulldog wrote: That the original poster, being from across the pond, didn't see that doesn't surprise me too much, but I'd have thought you'd see. Are you going to continue denying the obvious?
Bulldog, I knew the reference and thought I handled it correctly: Gang of Four as used by the reporter was France, EU, Belgium and Lux.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 16:01 Comments ||
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#30
I guess we can add Greece to the list of countries with this standard operating procedure:
Things are going great....."#$%% OFF, US/UK!"
Things are going horrible in the US or UK....."#$%& OFF, you're getting what you deserve! You are evil/racist/infidels who have never apologized for the part you played in destroying my great-grandmother's cousin's best friend's lemonade stand when you kicked the fascists/communists out of my country!"
Things are going horrible in their little corner of the world, especially if they are the ones who screwed it up in the first place......"Hello suckers! Whoops, I meant friends! Send troops and money! Especially money! No euros, please....we want dollars and pounds, thanks!"
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 16:20 Comments ||
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#31
Aris >>> Prozac...it's not just for breakfast anymore.
Bulldog >> Greece is famous for it's Mythology, great thinkers, advanced civilization, ruins, and a powerful military. You can read about it under ancient history. Oh, I almost forgot, one more thing a particular type of sex (DOH!)
Greece is about as important in this world as horse and buggy whips are to modern transportation.
I think the seething anger is simply because the UK stands by the US on so many important issues. The Brits believe in taking a stand and (unlike the rest of Europe) aren't afraid to take strong action when the time is required. More importantly, they don't send in 500 troops just to hand out band aids and ice cream to the locals when they deploy like the Paklanders, African countries, Germans, Japanese or Koreans. When things get tough the US can only rely on the UK. Thank God for the UK and may God bless and watch over her troops!
Posted by: Paul ||
08/29/2003 17:10 Comments ||
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#32
"Does Greece owe the US anything for her propping up of western Europe post-war, in order to contain the soviets, who would have had Greece for breakfast without US presence in Europe?"
Hmm, let me think, do we owe you anything for propping up the fascist anti-Communist dictatorship that had Greece in its grips for seven years and then went and created the mess in Cyprus which saw the island ethnically cleansed and hundreds of thousands of people expelled from their homes?
I think that for its Cold War contribution, Greece owes America about as many thanks as Romania owes the Soviet Union.
"I think EU is a necessary evil for Britain"
Wow. Really? Please expound on the reasons you consider it a necessary one. Why is it necessary for Britain to remain in the EU? Please tell.
"And Aris, re. Cyprus, where was the Greek element of the Falklands task force? Are we quits yet, are we?!"
No, we aren't quits yet. Because Greece didn't try to stop Britain from creating whatever defence pacts she wants, but Britain is still trying to stop the EU from creating *its* defense pact. Even one that would exclude Britain itself. Nope, nope, can't have that. Can't let EU move forward without us. We must tie it down to the NATO alliance, an alliance which depends on our fellow Anglosaxon allies and which they can disband in a moment if it is no longer to their benefit.
You see, that's the point you STILL DON'T GET, Bulldog. I am not talking about *any* British obligation to help Greece or Cyprus or Baluchistan or whatever.
I just don't want you to interfere in our desires to create a European defense pact which may be so willing to defend us. One independent from NATO. Which will therefore be obliged to help EU members that *don't* belong to NATO as well. Like Cyprus.
DO YOU GET IT, BULLDOG? I JUST WANT YOU TO BUTT OUT! I WANT YOU TO STOP SABOTAGING THE EFFORTS OF OTHER NATIONS!
And Baba Yaga, if you noticed I initially limited the discussion to what Britain is doing *now*, the constant sabotaging. It's others who brought up the idiocy of "historical debts" we owe to the grandchildren of people who fought in World War 2. (and not all the grandchildren, just the anglo ones)
#34
Aris, please inform on how the Americans propped up the dictatorship in Greece. Did US troops scour the cities and make arbitrary arrests and random political assassinations or did we sell weapons and forget to overthrow the government because we were befuddled by the millions of dead killed in the name of communism by that point? At some point the Greek people have to take responsibility for the Greek bastards that ran the Greek nation and the Greek mothers that bought into the Stalinist lies and tried to take over said nation.
I think the UK is rightfully nervous of the EU and any defense clauses because they are pretty much the only nation with any power project capabilities and they will be called upon to use their blood and treasure defending little carribean islands and specks of rock in the Indian ocean because the Dutch and French cannot afford to defend them.
#35
Aris--Watch who you're calling an "Anglo", honey. There ain't a drop of British blood in me. My mother's side is all from the Balkans. You know, that region to the north of you which quite recently had a nasty civil war with grievances dating all the way back for oh, 800 years or so? Yeah, the same one your vaunted, valiant EU was so effective in bringing to a peaceful resolution. (I'm sorry.....no, wait....that was finally ended once those damn mutts from America got involved, wasn't it? And yes, I know that they are going to cherish forever the indignity of having their prize goat blown up by a US/UK bombing raid, to add to their never-ending list of indignities they love to bitch about. I'm part of that culture, and remember hearing that kind of garbage from the old folks. Your compatriots the Greeks are on their shit list, too. So don't even get started on that crap. It's never only about stuff that happened last year or last week, and never only about stuff that happened to them personally. Unless you happen to live in the one tiny little bit of that peninsula where that rule doesn't apply....which I doubt.)
They did a bang-up job of giving defensive weapons to your ol' friend Turkey (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think even your government supported them on this one) before the latest war in Iraq.
Oh, yeah, they're gonna save your ass if the shit hits the fan. Sure.....just as soon as the Charles DeGaulle can get more than 50 nautical miles from Marseille without a mechanical breakdown. That is, if the French don't give you the same "learn your place" speech Chirac gave to Eastern Europe earlier this year.
Let's get one thing across to you, Aris. My country, and the UK, do not sit up nights wondering just how we are going to bring Greece to her knees. I know it is the center of your universe, and rightfully so. But if you think for one minute that the rest of the world is/was plotting against Athens, you're even nuttier than those raving Islamic freaks that live in your general neighborhood.
Oh, and on behalf of my father and uncles on both sides who fought for your freedom in WW2, none of them "Anglo" or with any blood ties to Greece (imagine some guys with German and Italian blood fighting against fascism, if you can), you are welcome.
Now go wash down your Prozac with some ouzo like a nice kid and lay down for a bit. You'll feel better.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 18:55 Comments ||
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#36
Aris, the take home message from the Falklands fiasco is: we DID IT OURSELVES, despite the fact that our enemy had the upper hand. We had a problem, and we dealt with it. It's an alien concept, I know. You prefer to blame rather than do. That's what makes us different.
We fought for Greece in 1941. When was the last time your EU "compatriots" fought for Greece? When did France defend Greece? When did Germany? When did Brussels? Your history means nothing to you, so you'll learn nothing from it.
#37
Bulldog--What you said! ;)
Oh, and nothing personal about the "no British blood in me", you realize.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 19:01 Comments ||
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#38
Steve White, no, it was very clumsily handled (in fact, you could argue deliberate obfuscation was employed). There's nothing to nail down France, Luxembourg, Belgium and "the EU" as the gang of four. Number four is Germany. Re-read the article. If the EU itself was in on this, everyone whould be up in arms...
#40
Baba Yaga, I know you people there don't give a damn about Greece. I just wished that you (and the Brits) didn't give a damn about the EU also.
And the Balkans aren't to the North of us. They are all around us. As for the propping up of junta, it went all over the list, economic, political, diplomatic aid. Yes, yes, ofcourse a great part of the Greek establishment were to blame also. Many Romanians supported the Romanian communist dictator also, after all. But Bulldog was going bitchy on me about how the Americans ensured our freedom during the Cold War and we should be grateful. Bzzt, wrong! Neither democracy, nor freedom, was ensured by the Americans during that period.
"It's never only about stuff that happened last year or last week, and never only about stuff that happened to them personally. "
And yet when *I* spoke about stuff that happened yesterday or the day before, it was still other people that brought up stuff that happened 60 years ago.
And the insane conspiracy theories about plotting against Greece were put into my mouth by others. I've never uttered them one single time.
It's the EU which I accused Britain of attempting to destroy.
Bulldog>
"Aris, the take home message from the Falklands fiasco is: we DID IT OURSELVES, despite the fact that our enemy had the upper hand. We had a problem, and we dealt with it."
Then why do you need the NATO? If you can do everything yourselves, that is?
For that matter why do the United States need their Federal army? Have each state make its own individual army. No alliances are needed. No coalitions. No unions. Ever.
"When was the last time your EU "compatriots" fought for Greece?"
Btw, here's another foreign concept to you, which is called "diplomatic and economical support". Meaningless to you, I know, who thinks that the exercise of might can happen only with a gunbarrel. We're lucky enough to not have had many wars in the last 50 years, thank you. Not counting the intervention the dictators attempted at Cyprus, of course.
On another note hundreds of thousands of Cypriots can atleast visit their old homes after the huge pressure that the Republic of Cyprus' admission to the Union was to the Denktash regime. More than the US has ever done for that island.
#41
Put your faith in Brussels, Aris, and on your head be it. Greece was a great nation, once. Now you look to Belgium for leadership, and claim you cannot be expected to defend yourselves. Civilisation has gone west, Aris.
#42
How do you define "us"? I vote for Brussels same way as I vote for Athens.
And it's amusing that when you speak of Greece as a great nation, you are speaking of the time when Athens battled Sparta and each city was a "nation" upon itself actually. I wonder if you consider it equally bad that Athens isn't any longer a city state but united with other "inferior" places like Sparta or Corinth or Thessaly or Macedonia or Crete or whatever.
We look to Belgium for leadership? Actually our current Prime Minister Simitis wouldn't be too huge a outsider for a future EU president, given his successes in the EU in the past. We'll look to them for leadership as much as they'll look to us, I wager.
#43
And as a sidenote I also think that the English were a great nation once. But then they became whiny crybabys about the EU at best, or vile backstabbing saboteurs of it at worst, wanting neither in nor out.
#44
Successes like the preparations for the 2004 Olympic Games? Don't get all watery eyed on us, Aris. We'll hold out for Grecian leadership of a federal EU. Hope you can!
#46
I get the impression that Aris will place blame for every future EU defficiency and failure on the US & UK. His excuse will be that the US & UK were meddling, subverting, sabotaging etc etc. I know people like this. They like to revise history to reflect that any failure on their part is the fault of the US. In Aris' case it will be both the US & UK.
#47
Aris--The British are still great. Just because they don't necessarily toe the party line as you would want them to doesn't make them "whiny crybabys" or "vile backstabbing saboteurs". I think you are mixing them up with the French. If the EU is so damn fragile that having a member nation raise questions as to the merits of an idea pisses off the rest of the group that badly, they are going to be in serious shit if a real problem ever comes up.
We have a kind of vested interest in watching what happens with the EU, as much as that irritates you no end. Why? Well, let me put it this way......we had to come over there twice and fight wars Europeans started, and we had to keep our troops over there to ensure a third war didn't start up because we still aren't sure you learned any lessons the previous two times. Believe me, most Americans would be happy as all hell to pull the troops out. But based on Europe's sorry behavior during the 20th century, excuse us for doubting that you could handle the responsibility for your own security.
I know, in your eyes, we are responsible for all the evil, horrible things that have befallen Greece. Your own people had nothing to do with any of the woes that you suffer. It's always someone else's fault. Your dictators were all supported by the CIA, there were no Greek citizens who had anything to do with them attaining power, right?
Ok, let's get to that bug up your ass, Cyprus. I think that's what you are really worked up about here. We have two NATO members engaged in a war over an island. Your big problem seems to be that the rest of NATO didn't come on over and referee this nasty mess that a Greek-backed faction started in 1974. Right? The fact that only the Greek dominated government is officially recognized by the UK, the US and the rest of the world except Turkey means nothing to you, your pretty words about "diplomatic and economical support" notwithstanding. We were supposed to get involved in a nasty civil war between two allies just to keep *you* happy. To eloquently quote you, "Pfft."
P.S. As for each state having their own army, well, we kinda have that. It's called the National Guard. The state governors can call them out when they see the need for maintaining civil order due to people acting up or natural disaster. Our states don't have armies that could attack, say, Canada, because we leave that up to the national government. National Guard units can and are called up to assist the regular federal military forces, but they do that under the command of the President. That was one of the things we resolved a while back when we came up with our Constitution.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 21:30 Comments ||
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#48
Baba Yaga, I'm no longer interested in having you put words in my mouth. When I say in a post "Yes, yes, ofcourse a great part of the Greek establishment were to blame also", and you somehow get out of it that I said no Greek citizen was to blame whatsoever... well it already shows that you've not been reading what I'm writing, and therefore I will not be reading what you are writing either. Sounds fair to me.
(As a sidenote, the religious establishment's support for the junta is one of my lasting grievances against the Greek Orthodox Church. The other lasting grievance is their moral support towards the Bosnian Serbs.)
"If the EU is so damn fragile that having a member nation raise questions as to the merits of an idea pisses off the rest of the group that badly, "
Britain doesn't "raise questions", it holds this as a "red line" that EU must never ever ever ever cross. As the EU was foolish enough to admit Britain into the union (with its power of veto and all), the EU is now a hostage to Britain's decisions.
No other country in the union has all these "red lines". Most countries that disagree with the majority just go for opt-outs instead. But you can't actually *sabotage* a union with opt-outs, so Britain can't go that way.
"I get the impression that Aris will place blame for every future EU defficiency and failure on the US & UK"
Raphael, are you telling me that Britain *isn't* threatening to veto any and every EU common defense pact? Tell me those words. Please. Let me know if you are completely detached from reality.
Tell you what. I'll only blame UK for the definciencies that her vetoes had a huge share in creating. How does *that* sound?
Such a vile union as ours is, you people have still not given me a reason why Britain wants to stay in.
"Your big problem seems to be that the rest of NATO didn't come on over and referee this nasty mess that a Greek-backed faction started in 1974. Right? "
No.
My big problem is that the UK is sabotaging the Union. Still don't get it?
As for historical grievances I'm not interested in any until *other* people start telling me that I should have historical *gratitude* towards them instead.
No way. It's only when people take out the "you should be grateful to us" card, that I take out the "grateful for the military junta, you mean?" card.
#50
And as a sidenote I also think that the English were a great nation once. But then they became whiny crybabys about the EU at best, or vile backstabbing saboteurs of it at worst, wanting neither in nor out.
Britain is still a great nation. Unlike Greece, whose primary hope for glory these days consists of leeching on to the developed nations of the EU. Once Britain gives up its sovereignty, its glorious history will turn to dust, as it becomes just another backwater province in a latter-day Roman empire headquartered in Brussels.
#51
Aris, you crack me up! Check out your original post on this, where at the end, you tell Britain to @#$% OFF! Regarding.....Cyprus. See the very last sentence. You brought that up. Not Bulldog.
Also, the line about your own people having nothing to do with their own problems is called sarcasm. I take it you've heard of that, since the word is derived from Greek?
You still haven't provided any proof that the UK is sabotaging your EU. There is nothing in this article, that approaches a "don't cross this" line that the UK has established anywhere but in the confused ravings you've posted. I stand by my previous statements. If you would only do the same......
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/30/2003 2:17 Comments ||
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#52
"Regarding.....Cyprus. See the very last sentence. You brought that up. "
Yes, Cyprus is a *present-day* non-NATO nation under constant threat. It's Bulldog who brought up historical debts. Yet again you've not been reading my posts.
But ofcourse idiots like you hear "Cyprus" and your minds go back 30 years ago, the same way you hear Germany and your minds go back 60 years ago.
"Also, the line about your own people having nothing to do with their own problems is called sarcasm. "
No, it's called again not reading my posts as you accused me of denying guilt to my own people. And what you are doing now is called trying to weasel out of your words.
"You still haven't provided any proof that the UK is sabotaging your EU. There is nothing in this article, that approaches a "don't cross this" line that the UK has established anywhere "
What the hell do you think the phrase "red lines" mean?
#53
""Successes like the preparations for the 2004 Olympic Games? " *g* Pfft. Bwahaha! British tabloids as a source of information, again, Bulldog?"
Show me where I've linked to a British tabloid, Aris. I can recall doing so only once. This was a half-hour programme on the Beeb. If you honestly think Greece's Olympic efforts are something to be proud of, your standards are about right for an EUrophile. Here's a quote from a BBC online article:
"Athens was awarded the games six years ago, but political infighting and what was called excessive bureaucracy led to major delays in the timetable."
Care to provide a link to support your rosy opinion of Greek preparations?
"Greece is part of NATO and of the European Union (EU), but an old schism-that of Eastern Orthodoxy's claim against the Latin world-has greater power and a deeper resonance. In the banal narrative of Greek anti-Americanism, this animosity emerges from U.S. support for the junta that reigned over the country from 1967 to 1974. This deeper fury enables the aggrieved to glide over the role the United States played in the defense and rehabilitation of Greece after World War II. Furthermore, it enables them to overlook the lifeline that migration offered to untold numbers of Greeks who are among the United States' most prosperous communities."
(Fouad Ajami, "The Falseness of Anti-Americanism" FOREIGN POLICY Sept/Oct 2003, page 55.)
Ajami goes on to point out that Greece's phony claim to "Westernness" is just a front for the same nationalistic and religious resentment that's found across the Bosporus, "a belligerent political culture shaping faith as a political weapon, an abdication of responsibility for one's own world, and a search for foreign 'devils.'" (Ibid)
Posted by: Ernest Brown ||
08/30/2003 15:29 Comments ||
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#55
Thanks Ernest, it's good to see that so well put. Sort of encapsulates and enhances what Aris has been demonstrating piece by piece for the past few months.
From Toronto, Canada
A student pilot from India who apparently few over a nuclear power plant near Toronto will continue to be held in custody as a threat to national security. Anwar ur Rehman Mohammed is one of the 19 men arrested two weeks ago under new immigration laws that allow officials to detain persons suspected of unusual behavior. Mohammed came to Canada from India to learn how to fly. An immigration hearing was told that Mohammed flew over a nuclear power plant near the flight school. But Rick Caravaggio, the head instructor at that school says thereâs nothing odd about that. "Lots of people fly over the (nuclear power) plant. Itâs not a big deal, or I donât think itâs a big deal. Thereâs no law that says you canât." But immigration officials argued that Mohammed poses a threat to national security because of where he was flying. They say itâs also suspicious that Mohammed took much longer than he should have to get his licence. David Orman, Mohammedâs lawyer, says heâs exasperated by the fact that his client was arrested on suspicion alone. Oh I donât know, the fact that they got student visas in order to attend a ficticious (non-flight) school might have something to do with it (although it speaks volumes about the visa application process as well).
Posted by: Raphael ||
08/29/2003 7:06:39 AM ||
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So... why the hell isn't it illegal for civilians to overfly nuclear plants?
From Asia Times, EFL:
Well-placed sources within the army have revealed to Asia Times Online that recently several top officers have been arrested. These arrests have been kept secret as no charges have been laid. The officers, according to the sources, were seized after being fingered by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) as probably having links with international Islamic militants. The FBI has been given a free hand to interrogate the officers at its cell in the capital, Islamabad, or at any other location of its choosing in order to establish ties between the officers and militant networks.
Asia Times Online investigations have established the names of two of those arrested: Assistant Adjutant-General and Quartermaster-General, Lieutenant-Colonel Khalid Abbassi (posted in Kohat, North-West Frontier Province) and one Major Atta. The investigations show that neither the family of the officers nor their subordinates know where they are being detained. Senior officers in the army, when contacted by this correspondent, remained tight lipped and their advice was, "stay away from this matter". Further investigations reveal that Abbassi is a widely-respected officer in signals, and that he is also a very religious person. Apparently, he delivered lessons from the Koran every day to his junior officers, a trend that was encouraged by former dictator General Zia ul-Haq in the army, and which is still common nowadays.
The Pakistani army, largely through the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), as part of its strategic vision for the region actively supported and promoted the Taliban in its formation and ultimate seizure of power in Afghanistan in 1996.
It is an open secret in Washington now that a delegation of senior Pakistani army officers, sent to Afghanistan prior to the US invasion ostensibly to convince the Taliban to step down, actually spent their time instructing the Taliban on how to protect their weapons from the impending US aerial bombing.
With the rapid retreat of the Taliban from Afghanistan, though, and in the face of tough Washington pressure to join in the global "war on terror", Musharraf had little choice but to throw in his hat as an ally of the US. This had two immediate effects: it disenchanted a large section of the military-security apparatus, and it paved the way for US intelligence to muscle into internal Pakistani affairs, which further upset those within the military-security establishment. Iâll bet.
Initially, the FBI was allowed to set up small cells in the operations offices of the ISI, and ISI officials were attached to these cells. However, the FBI was able to decide on its own targets, and it delegated specific assignments to ISI officials, but under FBI surveillance. Lately, the FBI has been given separate premises all over the country, and its own separate teams of officers, who, with the best bugging devices in the world, now have maximum access to Pakistanâs telecommunications system. Which explains how they can find and grab suspects.
This kind of access means that the FBI is now privy to much of the information that the Pakistan army has, which has led to the Americans being able to nip in the bud a number of attempts by the ISI to re-establish its presence in Afghanistan through local commanders of the Hezb-I-Islami of warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, now a key player in the Afghan resistance movement. Kind of suprising we havenât heard of any FBI agents getting wacked.
When General Zia ul-Haq was president and the chief of army staff in the late 1970s and early 1980s, he encouraged his officers to say their prayers five times a day (as is customary in Muslim society), and those who did so were looked on favorably when promotion time came around. Indeed, it became essential that anyone seeking a top position in the army or the ISI displayed the appropriate religious fervor. Even better would be if an officer had a background in the Islami Jamiat-i-Talaba (the student wing of the Jamaat-i-Islami, the premier fundamentalist party). Such a connection led to the emergence of the likes of Lieutenant-General Hameed Gul, Brigadier Imtiaz and dozens of others who made their names in political operations in favor of Islamic parties or in launching conspiracies to unseat secular parties, such as the Pakistan Peopleâs Party of twice premier Benazir Bhutto.
But times have changed. After taking over from Sharif, Musharraf placed a team of religious zealots in all prominent positions. Now he is reversing that trend and is ditching many stalwarts in favor of new, more flexible, faces - faces that are presumably more acceptable to the US. This has not been without severe backlash. Three known assassination plots have been hatched against the general, but he has remained undeterred; in fact, moves to rid the services of religious-minded officers have gathered pace, and many have been given their marching orders or passed over for promotion.
It is no coincidence, then, that the Jamaat-i-Islami is championing, with grim determination, a drive to have Musharraf step down as head of the army. With its historically close connections to so many within the forces, Jamaatâs move can only be seen as a signal from within the now bitterly divided armed forces. And the latest news of Musharrafâs willingness to send 10,000 troops to northern Iraq (the Kurdish regions only) further aggravates the situation, as this is strongly opposed by many within the army who foresee Pakistanis as being used as cannon fodder by the US. The actual departure of the troops, then, could be the final straw for Musharraf, who has earned vengeful and powerful enemies in uniforms as a result of forcing the army to march to his own beat. Musharraf has to do a Stalin style purge of the hard-line islamic elements in his armed forces, or heâs toast.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 10:19:20 AM ||
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#1
I don't see Pakistan surving the next decade. Baluchi's, Pashtuns, Punjabi's. Eventually the instability will shatter it into three seperate nations.
The question is, do the Baluchi's join up with the Baluchi's in Iran, the Pashtuns join up with the Pashtun's in Afghanistan, and the Punjabi's join up with the Punjabi's in India, or does the fragmentation cause independence-minded thinking in the neighborhood and further destabilize everything.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
08/29/2003 12:43 Comments ||
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#4
I would like to think Musharraf would do a South Africa and get rid of the nukes before his country fell. I would like to think so but I realize that's wishfull thinking.
#5
This is more garbage from the fantasists at Asia Times. If the FBI had the kind of cooperation from Pakistan that this guy claims we have, terrorists would not be mounting cross-border raids into Afghanistan. These guys are just making excuses for Hektamayar's failure to get anything accomplished in Afghanistan except get new Taliban recruits killed in large numbers. What these pro-Taliban members of Pakistan security forces don't realize is that when roused, Uncle Sam is an extremely dangerous opponent.
If you read the anti-American newswires, you get the impression that US forces are extremely incompetent, so the Pakistani theory is that betrayal by Musharraf accounts for the failure of the neo-Talibanis. Of course, the truth is newswire reporters are incompetent and anti-American, whereas our boys are taking it to the enemy and inflicting considerable damage. But anti-American wing of the Pakistani security forces will never recognize this truth, so they resort to the theory that Musharraf is an American puppet. (I wish).
KARACHI CONTINUES TO BE UNDER THE PALL of sectarianism. Continued sectarian violence, which has hit Shia doctors the hardest, has forced at least 500 doctors to leave Pakistan since March 4 last year. Most of them, however, were driven away by the recent incidents of violence in Karachi including the killing of a US-returned doctor, Aal-e-Safdar Zaidi who was killed in the cityâs upscale Defence Housing Authority area. The killing of doctors in Karachi started in 2000 but then there was a lull. The violence again picked up last year when six doctors were murdered in the city. This was a couple of months before Akram Lahori and his accomplices were arrested in June 2002. The situation became so alarming that the Karachi chapter of Pakistan Medical Association went on its first ever strike on March 13.
At least 7000 doctors practising in Karachi are registered with PMA. Out of these, more than 6,000 are general practitioners (GPs). This is the group most targeted by sectarian terrorists, though Karachi has also lost some senior specialists to the violence. This is the second phase of forced migrations. Three years ago, more than 200 doctors had left the country after Deobandi sectarian groups began targeting Shia doctors. âThe doctors who have the resources to settle elsewhere are leaving the country, but the majority is not so lucky and cannot afford to migrate,â Dr Shershah Syed, Secretary-General PMA, told TFT.
Doctorsâ killings came to a halt after the Karachi police killed Haji Laldin alias Laloo in an encounter on April 4. Laloo was the city commander of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a banned sectarian outfit. Akram Lahori, one of Pakistanâs most wanted terrorists who was on the run for about 12 years and supervised dozens of terrorist activities in Punjab and Sindh, was also caught along with four accomplices in the same encounter. Akram Lahori, chief commander of his own faction of LJ, had been arrested with his deputy Tasadduq, Ataullah alias Qasim (hitman), Sharif (hunter and researcher) and Usman Baloch from a bungalow in Defence Housing Authority on June 29. Lahori was one of the three founders of the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. The other two were Riaz Basra and Malik Ishaq. The former was killed in a police shootout in Punjab last year while the latter was arrested by the Punjab police.
According to IGP Sindh, Syed Kamal Shah: âHe [Lahori] graduated from the University of the Punjab where he developed immense hatred towards the Shia sect after some clashes with Shia students. He joined Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan and finally began his reign of terror in 1996 when the terrorist troika formed the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi.â
The doctor community had been at ease after the arrests of these terrorists until Dr Syed Ibne Hasan was shot dead by unidentified men in Malir on August 16. The incident led to unprecedented violence in the city in which many vehicles, public and private property including US franchised food outlet KFC was set ablaze. Sources in the police said the investigators were examining the possibility of the regrouping of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi as well as the entrance into the arena of a new player, the Muslim United Army, a so-called alliance of various jihadi groups.
At least 74 doctors have been murdered during the last decade or so and more than 50 of them have been assassinated since 1997. In the year 2000, eight doctors were killed while 2001 and 2002 claimed the lives of seven and six doctors respectively.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/29/2003 12:56:15 AM ||
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Ok....could someone explain exactly WHY they are going after doctors? Is it simply because they are Shia, are the nutcases mad that they might be violating some obscure fatwa by patching up people hurt by terrorist bombs/assassinations, or do they just hate people who studied something other than the Koran?
I guess I'll be seeing more Islamic-sounding names on my insurance company's list of approved doctors. Good for the US.....bad for Pakistan.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 4:54 Comments ||
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#2
Doctorsâ killings came to a halt after the Karachi police killed Haji Laldin alias Laloo in an encounter on April 4. Laloo was the city commander of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a banned sectarian outfit.
So Israel's strategy works in other countries. Wotta surprise.
#3
Killing educated and highly respected people like Doctors attracts a lot more attention then killing some anonymous, poverty striken people in a mosque.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/29/2003 19:39 Comments ||
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#4
It says that the Pakistani doctors can't leave due to low wages. Why doesn't Canada import Pakastani doctors to replenish the flow of their doctors to the states?
Couldn't the French import Pakastani doctors to cover the holiday season so that fewer aged Parisians die?
Posted by: Super Hose ||
08/29/2003 20:30 Comments ||
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From Islam Online:
One of Iraqâs best-known Shiite Muslim politician, Ayatollah Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim, head of the Iran-backed Supreme Assembly of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SAIRI), was killed in Fridayâs, August 29, car bomb in the central city of Najaf, according to the groupâs Tehran office. Hakim, who spent some 20 years in exile in Iran before returning in triumph to Iraq earlier this year, "met a martyrâs fate along with his bodyguards," Mohsen Hakim, political adviser to the ayatollahâs brother Abdel Aziz, told Agence France-Presse (AFP) in tears. Guess the bodyguards didnât check their bosses car, or one of them put the bomb there.
In one of the most violent days in the occupied country, a car bomb explosion killed at least 20 people and wounded scores more outside one of Shiite Islamâs holiest shrines in the central Iraqi city of Najaf Friday, an AFP correspondent witnessed. Seventeen corpses were picked off the ground outside the Tomb of Ali as blood-spattered casualties wandered around the square in panic moments after the blast in the holy city, 180 kilometers (110 miles) south of Baghdad. Several shops were gutted by the blast which struck as the faithful left after afternoon prayers on the main Muslim day of worship. Smoke filled the area as five charred cars burned. One was thrown at least 100 meters (yards). People were buried beneath the rubble of a gate to the compound and two nearby restaurants and shops, which were flattened by the explosion.
Iraqi police supervised rescue efforts as a few U.S. soldiers watched on. Onlookers shouted: "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greater) every time a body was lifted from the heap of metal and brick.
Outdoor vendors and worshippers had gashes on their faces from flying glass. An announcement over the mosqueâs loudspeakers urged residents to go to the local childrenâs hospital to donate blood.
The offices of firebrand anti-American cleric, Moqtada Sadr, were also damaged in the blast. Heâs considered the prime suspect by a lot of folks.
The gates of the mosque were shuttered and guarded by dozens of Iraqi police, while three fire trucks were positioned around the compound. Police hauled away cars left in the area for fear that more bombs might be hidden. Minutes before the blast, worshippers were listening to the weekly prayer sermon delivered by Baqer al-Hakim, head of the SAIRI, the countryâs main Shiite political party. Earlier, an announcement over the mosqueâs loudspeakers said Hakim had survived the blast. The car exploded outside the shrine compoundâs southern gate where Hakim normally enters and exits on Fridays. Should have varied his routine.
An angry crowd outside shouted slogans against fallen dictator Saddam Hussein and the Baath party in the moments after the blast. Hakim had denounced Saddam and the Baath party during his sermon. Anti-American chants scheduled for a later date.
In another violent incident, the deputy security chief for the Kurds in the northeastern Iraqi province of Sulaimaniya has been shot dead by Ansar al-Islam group, an official from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) told AFP Friday. Yup, theyâre back!
Sulaimaniyaâs deputy security chief, Hama Hussein, was shot dead Wednesday afternoon by four Ansar members, as he approached the house where his forces had them surrounded in the middle of the city, the official said. The militants had agreed to negotiate with Hussein and, as he walked towards the agreed meeting point, he was hit by bullets, the official said. The old shot while under a white flag trick, bastards.
In the ensuing battle, three Ansar members were killed and one arrested, the official said. Soon to be shot. And no one else will get a chance to talk after this.
Along the porous border with Iran, Ansar, espousing a puritanical vision of Islamic law, ruled a handful of villages for nearly two years and allegedly struck up ties with the al-Qaeda network before being crushed by U.S. special forces at the end of March. Now five months later, Ansar fighters are believed to have slipped back inside Iraq from Iran, across the mountainous border, posing a threat in the minds of the Americans and the PUK, the party of Jalal Talabani which dominates life in the eastern part of Iraqi Kurdistan. Ooops, Islam Onlines bias is showing.
The countryâs U.S. civilian administrator, Paul Bremer, warned repeatedly that hundreds of the groupâs followers have returned to plot "terror attacks" around the country. Kurdish officials have also blamed Iran for allowing the Ansar fighters to return. Well, we never really believed Iran when they said they werenât sheltering them.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 9:32:00 AM ||
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At least 17 people have been killed by a car bomb explosion outside a shrine in the holy city of Najaf, according to reports. Iraqâs best-known Shia politician, Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim, is reported to be among the dead. Fox reporting over 20 dead. Somebody put a bomb in al-Hakims car. It blew after prayers were over and he was leaving.
The car bomb blew up near the Tomb of Ali in the central Iraqi city, one of the holiest shrines for Shia Muslims, just as main weekly prayers were ending. No group has admitted carrying out the attack. But correspondents say that a power struggle has been going on within what is known as the Hawza - the Shia religious establishment based in Najaf. Eyewitnesses described a scene of bodies scattered on the ground as the injured wandered around the square in panic.
The BBCâs Valerie Jones, in Baghdad, said part of the entrance to the mosque is said to have collapsed on the crowd, and many people are feared to be trapped by the debris. A restaurant was also badly damaged in the blast. Dire Revenge(tm) time.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 8:36:39 AM ||
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Additional: Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim died in the bombing, his nephew told The Associated Press. "I called family in Najaf and they confirmed he was dead," said the nephew, Murthada Saeed al-Hakim. Earlier, another relative had said the ayatollah had escaped.
Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of Iraqi National Congress and a governing Council member also said on al-Jazeera, the Arab broadcaster, that al-Hakim had been killed, quoting the cleric's brother, Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 9:02 Comments ||
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More details: "It happened shortly after prayers. It was a car bomb and up to 20 people were killed," Adel Abdul Mahdi, an official of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) told Reuters in Baghdad after receiving reports from Najaf. Iraqi Shi'ite Muslim leader Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim was killed by the car bomb, his nephew told Reuters in Tehran. "Ayatollah Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim became a martyr." Mohsen Hakim, who is also a top official for the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) based in Tehran, told Reuters. He would not give any further details.
A source close to SCIRI later said he was killed when his car was blown up after he left Friday prayers.Abdul Mahdi said the bomb detonated as worshippers were streaming out of the mosque. A U.S. military spokesman confirmed there had been a bomb blast but had no details. "There was an explosion at Najaf near a mosque," he said. "No coalition forces were in the area or on the ground because it is considered to be sacred ground."
On Sunday, top Shi'ite cleric Ayatollah Mohammed Saeed al- Hakim was slightly wounded in a bomb attack at his office in Najaf which killed three security guards. Hakim is the uncle of SCIRI leader Ayatollah Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim. Some SCIRI supporters blamed the previous attack, which was close to the mosque, on followers of rival Shi'ite leader Moqtada al Sadr. His group denied the accusation. Power struggles in Najaf are a key influence on the political future of majority Shi'ite Iraq.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 9:08 Comments ||
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#4
First priority - find out WHO did this.
This is not a random hate bombing, nor seems to be of the Baathist/al qaeeda type. This was a carefully plotted assasination - undoubtedly by the same people who tried to get Hakim earlier. Sadr, or Iranian secret service, or both. essential to catch them on this, and then take "appropriate" action.
#7
fred the tradecraft to do this was very sophisticated - looks like they penetrated SCIRI to get the car set up - now who would have moles inside SCIRI??? Not the Baathists, for sure. Sadr, maybe but unlikely. SCIRI was based for years in Iran, and received Iranian support, even though their interests have no parted ways. Who would both have motive and likely has deeply penetrated SCIRI??? IRAN!!!!!
"I saw al-Hakim walk out of the shrine after his sermon and moments later, there was a massive explosion. There were many dead bodies," said Abdul Amir Jassem, a 40-year-old merchant who was in the mosque and said the cleric had prayed for Iraqi unity.
No Merkins seem to be involved (except for their total responsibility by failing to establish security, etc., etc., etc.).
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/29/2003 13:21 Comments ||
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#11
LH, still seems to be his car: Eyewitnesses said Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) and the leading Shi'ite figure in Iraq, was about to drive away when the blast went off, destroying his car. Three gutted and destroyed cars, two of them flipped over by the force of the blast, were strewn across the street beside the mosque.
All reports I've read say the same thing. Sounds like somebody got to his car. If it was Saddam supporters it may have backfired:
In Sadr City, about 1,000 al-Hakim followers demonstrated in front of the Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution headquarters. Some sat weeping on the ground; others shouted for revenge. "We will not forget our Ayatollah Baqir al-Hakim!" they chanted. One protester fired a pistol in the air and urged the crowd to search for the Saddam backers and foreign fighters that he claimed were responsible.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 13:53 Comments ||
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#12
holy city of Najaf
What the hell is it with this "holy city" crap? It seems like every other city in the Arab Middle East is "holy." I never see Jerusalem referred to at a "holy city," yet that's the one city in the Middle East that could claim that title. But all these other little hell-holes are.
Anybody got an explanation?
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
08/29/2003 16:37 Comments ||
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#13
Barb: "Holy City" makes Dire Revenge⢠all that much more necessary, and lowers the limits of offenses requiring such Revenge to such as jaywalking, being circumsized, etc... ;-)
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 17:14 Comments ||
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#14
How long do you think it will take before the foreign fighters and loyalists start showing up dead in the street?
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 17:33 Comments ||
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#15
If the US Army or Marines had dinged the Tomb of Ali with so much as a 5.56mm round there would of been universal calls for Jihad and yet these bozos can blow up a car bomb in front of it and nobody says squat.
#16
Barbara - Najaf is home to the tomb of Ali, who was the son in law of the Prophet Mohammad. Shia Muslims believe that he was meant to rule over the worlds Muslims, but he was assassinated before he had the chance.
Sunni Muslims don't particularly care about the city, but for Shia Muslims it is the holiest city. The fact that the different sects of Islam have different holy cities is one reason why Muslims have so many. Although even then, there is really only half a dozen hold cities between the two sects.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
08/29/2003 19:50 Comments ||
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#17
Oh, more dead in the streets.
Oh, more 'speculation' from blowhards thousands of miles away. Hope you get to the bottom of this one guys!
Meanwhile, great to see more freedom and democracy unleashed on the long-suffering people of Iraq. Thanks Saddam! Thanks Dubya!
Billy
Posted by: Billy Bloggs ||
08/29/2003 21:05 Comments ||
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More MEMRI...
In a special report, the independent Al-Yawm Al-Aakher quoted sources in the Diyala Province as stating that they have been witnessing the emergence of an "unusual organization in the province identifying itself as 'Ansar Al-Qaeda' [Supporters of Al-Qa'ida], and that their numbers have been increasing daily⊠Citizens in Baqouba described the developments in the province as harbinger of an armed military eruption in the near future if the American forces in the area fail to curtail the activities of such armed organizationsâŠ"
I imagine we'll do just that, assuming we can collect the intel. It'll be easier if the locals try to help out a bit. From the tone of the (very short) article, it sounds like they might...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:24 ||
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More MEMRI...
The independent daily Al-Yawm Al-Aakher reported that it obtained confirmed information that "ten thousand Egyptian saboteurs, and a similar number from Afghanistan, were sent to Baghdad to carry out sabotage operations, including bombings of embassies, to create instabilityâŠ" The report stated that these operations "have no justifiable reasons [except to serve] agendas that are well known to a large segment of the Iraqi people."
Yeah. We have an idea what they are, too...
The paper concluded: "The Iraqis wish that those [saboteurs] are not dubbed Mujahideen or resistance fighters, because the situation is so confused now that we no longer know who is a resistance-fighter and who is a Mujaheed."
That 20,000 figure seems like it might be a little on the high side... Doesn't it? That's a lot of flies on that paper. And somebody's got to put them up and go out for sandwiches to feed them...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:17 ||
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#1
The ones with Fezzes are Egyptians, easy to spot....
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:27 Comments ||
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#2
The ones with Fezzes are Egyptians, easy to spot....
Easy to hit, too. "Awright now private, see the Fez? Now set your sight about a foot lower, and gently squeeze the trigger ..."
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 0:36 Comments ||
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#3
"The Iraqis wish that those [saboteurs] are not dubbed Mujahideen or resistance fighters, because the situation is so confused now that we no longer know who is a resistance-fighter and who is a Mujaheed."
More from MEMRI's Baghdad Press series... Al-'Adala (published by the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq), in an editorial titled "The Arab System: Between Legitimacy and Illegitimacy" stated that "some Arab groups and officials issue irresponsible statements about the interim Governing Council⊠Such positions reflect the extent of confusion and chaos that dominate Arab policies towards the occupation and the needs of the Iraqi peopleâŠ" The article further states that, in the past, the same parties had "supported Saddam and his shenanigans, and turned a blind eye to what took place in Iraq⊠in the pretext that it was up to the Iraqis [to deal with it]⊠and now, when the Iraqi people try their best to find the correct way to end the occupation and deal with the problems that Saddam left behind, they [i.e. the Arab countries] rush to build obstacles in the path of this patient, striving, and generous nationâŠ" The paper goes on to state that recent military campaigns against Iraq were launched from Arab territories, so the Arab regimes were not only partners to a regime that used chemical weapons and turned Iraq into a mass-grave, but also partners to the occupation itself.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:09 ||
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#1
From CNN
There are reports out of Iran that Shiite leader Ayatollah Mohamad Sa'eed al-Hakim, was among those killed in the blast. CNN has not been able to independently confirm those reports. The cleric's nephew, a top official in the Tehran-based Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), told Reuters his uncle was killed.
A Baghdad couple named their son after President Bush to show their thanks for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. The boy was born six weeks ago to Nadia Jergis Mohammed, 34, and her husband Abdul Kader Faris, 41. ``I tell you all Iraqis hated Saddam's regime. It was only George Bush who liberated us, without him it wouldn't have happened. If he hadn't done it the sons of Saddam would have ruled us for years. He saved us from Saddam and that's why we named our son after him,'' Mohammed told Associated Press Television News. The boy, born July 11, carries the full name George Bush Abdul Kader Faris Abed El-Hussein. He weighed 7 pounds 11 1/2 ounces at birth. Two older brothers are named more traditionally Omar and Ali.
"I'm Omar. This is my brother Ali. And this is our little brother, George."
Saddam's sons Odai and Qusai were killed in a fierce gunbattle with U.S. troops July 22 in Mosul.
We knew that. That also has nothing to do with the rest of the story. (Where do they get these people?)
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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#1
How long before the UN send Medicenes Sans Frontieres over to check them out for mental illness?
#2
Fred - The ax-grinding habit of some press agencies / outlets to fluff up their pieces with gratuitous almost completely unrelated BS is really starting to piss me off, too. I have decided than I will edit the shit out of any piece that can't confine itself to the topic defined by the title and pushes whatever editorial agenda is in vogue. Please say so if this isn't acceptable to you.
Additionally, I've started making sure that if a piece is marked with a copyright that I include it - or make certain not to post the entire article. I've based this approach on what I've read of the suit filed against Free Republic - which now asks people not to post entire articles. Sounds like a good policy as it employs the "fair use" principle for protection. Any guidelines you want to standardize upon here?
#3
I was wondering about the "fair use" myself. Although I assumed from the outset that only (relevant) portions of an article should be posted, especially those portions that you want to make fun of comment on ;-).
#4
Actually, I don't think the last phrase is fluff: the father mentioned that "the sons of Saddam would have ruled us for years.". It's a reminder that the US took care of Saddam's hellspawn, a fact that pisses off their comrades in the anti-war movement.
#5
Ms. Mohammed is way off message. Somebody needs to get her a subscription to the New York Times so that she can learn how resentful she is toward Dubya.
Posted by: Matt ||
08/29/2003 8:21 Comments ||
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#6
Hope nothing happens to this family,they are now a target.
Seems to me that as long as the copywrited materials are properly cited,and bookmarked(in the litirary sense,not computer)there should be no problem.It is common practice,when writing a research paper,to use source material.But these sources must be properly cited and noted to satisfy plagerisiam laws.
#7
I think the "fair use" provision is covered by our habit of yellow journalism (aka fisking). I edit out some repetition of yesterday's stuff, irrelevant junk that creeps in, that sort of thing, with an eye toward keeping the articles short and punchy. A phrase like "an official who spoke on condition of anonymity" usually gets shortened to "an official." If we don't say who he is, he's anonymous.
Often, as with all my rules, I break them.
Posted by: Fred ||
08/29/2003 9:21 Comments ||
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#8
I hear that the Cultural Integrity Institute, funded in part by the NEA, is planning to file a lawsuit. The basis, as I understand it, is that naming an Iraqi with a European name violates his/her cultural identity and implies that European names and values are preferable to indigenous ones. As soon as Iraq creates a Children's Protection Agency, the suit requests that an impartial international court remove the child from his parent's presence until they can receive training in their own culture. I believe the training is to be provided by the World Studies department of a prestigious United States university. It takes a village.
The criminals who perpetrated this bloody incident move in line with evil policies aimed at weakening the great NajafHawzah and threatening the lofty position of marjaiyah.
I always try to keep my marjaiyah lofty, too. It's been kinda droopy lately, though...
Such criminal acts could be used as an excuse by the occupiers of Iraq for police tactics and suppression and could lead to unrest and domestic disputes at a time when the oppressed people of Iraq have the greatest need for unity of expression. If the perpetrators of this crime are not direct mercenaries of the aggressor enemy, they are undoubtedly deceived people who have acted contrary to the dictates of religion, wisdom and ethics.
They're dingbat followers of Moqtada Sadr. They're not with us. Somebody left 'em there...
I strongly believe that, with vigilance and a firm resolve, the pious and brave people of Iraq will overcome all the conspiracies of the enemies, and by relying on dear Islam and seeking the attention of the Pure Imams, God's peace be upon them â for Iraq is the place of their pure mausoleums â they will raise the banner of Islam, independence and freedom over that country, Insha Allah.
Either that, or they'll blow the crap out of each other's ayatollahs...
I pray to God for greatness for Islam and Muslims and success for your excellency. Peace and God's mercy be upon you.
I'm sometimes awestruck at the convolutions these guys go through to blame things on us. We didn't boom the ayatollah. Booms in the night aren't even our style, though in some cases they should be.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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#1
Fred---I just finished a very tedious and detailed 53 page water systems report at work here, and before I took off, I just read your comments to Khamenei's letter. Hit the spot! ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:31 Comments ||
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#2
Awestruck is good, but after a few hundred thousand repetitions it's kinda hard to muster enuff awe to whack it about... I like the turn of phrase I read yesterday (?) and I think it was Flaming Sword who minted it Re: Little Mo:
"May bees be upon Him."
Immediately brought to mind Whirled Peas, but with more bite - melike. mesteal. Tanx, FS!
Islamic societies deal in blame - zero examination - of self, society, nature - anything but the Qu'uran's literal words. Obviously, this leads nowhere, improves nothing, and serves no functional purpose other than the occasional Darwinistic moments of serendipity when the right heads roll - here and there. Sum: negligible change.
Judeo-Christian societies deal in guilt - and self-examination is the consequent norm. For the non-religious Westerners, The Children of Aristotle⢠such as myself, examination of everything, certainly including yourself first, is also the norm. Just as obviously, this constant examination leads to incremental positive change - in each and every individual. Sum: profound societal evolution.
Give the processes a bit of time (say a coupla thousand years) to run in parallel and you have?
Precisely what we see today:
The Dead-Enders and Killjoys of Islamic Jihad HS vs. the Party-Animals and Young Republicans of More Science HS.
If Allah himself, may bees be upon him, showed up and raised "the banner of Islam" it wouldn't mean diddley-squat. He's just the head dead-ender and his drivel still sucks the big one. As a Free Man I'm no one's supplicant and I don't need anyone's capricious mercy - and I'll make the peace I want for my family and fellows through strength. Sorry to sound preachy, but this just wrote itself in reaction to the Khamenei cowpattie above. 8^)
#3
...and Sayyed signs his name with the year 1382.
How absolutely fitting! In 2 or 3 hundred years, these retarded societies may finally have an enlightenment and join the modern world.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
08/29/2003 1:26 Comments ||
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#4
No they won't , Uncle Joe.
May I recommend a book: The Closed Circle about the culture of the Arabs. Written circa Gulf War 1, it is as relevant now as then. In fact, it will be relevant in 500 years when Arab culture will still be exactly the same as it is now.
Arab culture cannot change because the deeply entrenched honour-shame system on which all public/private appointments get meeted out according to nepotism and ego. All policies get implemented with no regards to usefulness or scientific rationalism but simply as to whether some dimwit thinks it's a good idea. A dimwit who got his job from some more powerful man who wanted to prove that he has the capacity to be a mover and shaker. A dimwit that perhaps was a street sweeper but is now made director of a hospital with no previous experience. A dimwit you cannot show a better way to do things, or criticise a plan because that would be an insult to his honour.
So they will never change and never move anywhere because progress as we know it is irrelevant to Arabs: it does not enable them to increase their honour against their fellows. Being an Arab is a zero-sum game. The idea of enriching all of society just does not exist as we know it.
And Allah, May Bees PEE upon him, just reinforces the whole system with religious infallibility.
FOrget the Arab world they are even more backward than the Africans and if it weren't for the oil they'd be starving like Ethiopians.
#5
Anon1 & .com--I don't think I'm gonna get to sleep now because of you and Flaming Sword. ROTFLMAO!
I just keep thinking of a couple dorks in my chain of command I would love to see attacked by raging, incontinent insects......
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 5:05 Comments ||
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#6
Uncle Joe - I'm not sure what moonbat "event" Khamanei is referring to in his siggie, but the current Islamic Hijri date is: Friday 1 Rajab 1424 A.H. - and moonbat is apropos, since the Islamic calendar is a lunar confabulation and does not equate to a revolution of the Earth in its solar orbit. So their "year" is about 11 days shorter than a real year.
For some laughs, check out these links:
http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/calendar/islamic.shtml
http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-islamic.html
and here's a converter:
http://www.cs.pitt.edu/~tawfig/convert/
We used to laugh about the length of the shadow at high noon as thrown by the erect member of the Grand Doodah in Mecca as being the key - and explaining why they come up short, but that's another story... Yep, Islamic Scienceâ¢, a phantasy of 3rd World Physics and Mo's Moonbat Logic.
;->
#9
I guess he'll have to write another letter moaning the loss of Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim now that he was boomed. Looks like we have the beginnings of GWIII - The Ayatollah Wars.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 8:50 Comments ||
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#10
Rap,your comment was not that far off.If the Muslim calender is 11 days shorter than ours,then it follows for every year that passes they are 11 days further behind.
ex:year 1=11 days... year2=22days... year3=33days...addd infinitiam....
#11
"Such criminal acts could be used as an excuse by the occupiers of Iraq for police tactics and suppression "
this is the money quote - Hes worried the CPA and IGC will come down hard on Sadr and anyone close to Iran - they might even leave no stone unturned in looking for the culprits - this could lead to revealing ties to Iranian secret services, and the Iranian regime. Now we mustnt have that, right?
What are the consequences of Hakims death?
1. Creates disorder in IRaq
2. Strengthens Sadr versus the more moderate elements participating in the IGC
3. Weakens the Najaf Hawza as an alternate source of leadership in Shia Islam, as a threat to the Iranian (Qom) ayatollahs
Who benefits from all three of the above? the Iranian aytollahs, thats who.
This stinks of Qom and the Iranians. Time to update the invasion plans.
#14
Don't knock lunar calenders, the Mayan system was one of the best anyone ever came up with and it was based on the lunar cycle.
As for the on-going game of whack-an-ayatollah, one does wonder if the idea is to push Shiite Land into a state of insurrection? Just to make life more difficult for us. It's not like the Saudi ringers care much about dead heretics.
A man accused by two members of Jemaah Islamiah of being a member of the outlawed terrorist groupâs central command is living openly in central Java, where he says he often prays with local police on Fridays. Mustaqim, identified by the alleged Bali bomber Mukhlas and the JI supergrass Faiz Abu Bakar Bafana as a key member of their organisation, is running an Islamic boarding school called Mustaqimâs Dar es-Syahadah, about 40 minutesâ drive from Solo.
Mustaqim denied to the Herald the allegations from JI members against him. He said he had never been troubled by local police apart from the occasional "friendly chat". He is good friends with the local police chief, he said. "Some of my best friends are police, they have me in to chat all the time. They seem very interested in me."
In a record of interview with Indonesian police dated October 22 last year, Bafana, now in jail in Singapore, said Mustaqim was a member of the central council of JI and the head of JIâs Hudai Biyah camp in Mindanao in the Philippines, established to replicate military training JI members had undertaken in Afghanistan. Mukhlas, or Ali Ghufron, the alleged operational commander of the Bali bombings, told police in an interview soon after he was arrested near Solo in December last year that Mustaqim had been "in charge of operations" in a JI camp in Mindanao. He sounds like a very "holy" man.
The police chief of the Simo subdistrict, Sri Hartoyo, said he was unaware of the serious allegations against Mustaqim, who had never been picked up for questioning. "Based on my analysis he is not one of them . . . but Iâm not sure," Sri Hartoyo said. But he said he was suspicious of the school because it was so "closed", and police had been monitoring it for most of this year. The police chief met Mustaqim regularly, but felt he did not really know who he was, he said. A ringing endorsement.
In a report last week, the International Crisis Group named Mustaqim as one of a dozen top JI members still missing.
Yesterday, the reportâs author and Indonesia director for the group, Sidney Jones, said she was surprised Mustaqim could run the school despite the evidence against him. "We know this guy is very deeply involved in the organisation," she said. The failure to arrest him may be because JIâs legal status was less clear in Indonesia than elsewhere - it is banned by the United Nations. she said. The police, with limited resources, may be pursuing those JI members known to have been involved in violence, so those running the organisation such as Mustaqim have been able to operate unhindered, she said. More likely they are watching who comes and goes. That or he has "protected" status.
Mustaqim told the Herald: "I have never been to Afghanistan, I have never been to the Philippines, I have never been abroad." "Just look at my passport. No, this one, those are, er, somebody elseâs."
He said police had dropped by for a "friendly chat" and had asked him if he knew any JI members. He had told them he did not. "Nope, donât know them."
He said that although he had studied at the nearby Ngruki school - run by the alleged spiritual leader of JI, Abu Bakar Bashir - he had not met Bashir at the time because Bashir had been living in Malaysia. Since Bashir had returned to Indonesia he had met him very occasionally, he said. "Since he [Bashir] was linked with the recent issues I tried not to get in touch with him as I want this pesantren [Islamic boarding school] to be free from that kind of thing." "Are you stupid? Heâs too hot to touch right now."
In a second interview with police in February this year, Bafana said Mustaqim went to Afghanistan in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Bafana said he met Mustaqim in Lukman Nul Hakim in Malaysia in 1996 or 1997, where Mustaqim was teaching at an Islamic school. Covers blown, time to pick him up before he splits.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 2:42:10 PM ||
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Update: Arenât animals lucky to have friends like this...
Days after 10,000 mink were released from a farm in southern Snohomish County, hundreds of the animals not yet captured have converged on local farms in search of food. The animals had killed at least 25 exotic birds and attacked other livestock in the area. "Over half our livestock was shredded. Murdered. Eaten alive," said Jeff Weaver, who discovered the dead birds on his farm Thursday. "These are not like regular farm animals. Theyâre our pets." But they were dupes of the evil human and not as deserving of freedom as the noble mink. Youâre free, mink! Free! Free to get hit by cars, eaten by predators, starve to death!
Weaver, who breeds Indian Runner ducks and Banny chickens, said his field was full of the animals Thursday morning. "One of the mink had part of a chicken in its mouth and was headed for the creek," he said. "Theyâre starving. Theyâll kill anything in their path." The mink also killed Weaverâs geese, chicken and ducks, as well as wounded a dog and ate a 50-pound bag of bird feed. With an estimated loss of $2,000, he said he plans to improve fences, set traps and, if necessary, use a shotgun to fend off future assaults. Feel free to use that shotgun on any of the animal liberation set that might show up.
Diane and Joe Sallee are sealing their chickens in at night after they found the mink had killed six hens and injured several other that had to be euthanized. "This has just devastated our chicken population. We are just so upset by this," Diane Sallee said. "The people who do these things donât think it through." Thatâs the understatement of the day.
Animal activists argue that while the farm animalsâ deaths are unfortunate, it proves minks raised in captivity can survive in the wild. "The amount of suffering that has been prevented by releasing them from cramped cages and freeing them from an extremely cruel death more than justifies a temporary disruption to the ecosystem," said veterinarian Andrew Knight, director of research at the Seattle-based Northwest Animal Rights Network. Guess Orwell was right. Some animals are more equal the others.
Owners of the mink farm from which the animals were released estimate about 80 percent of the animals have been captured, leaving more than 1,000 unaccounted for, said Teresa Platt, executive director of Fur Commission USA. The commission is offering a $100,000 reward for information leading to the arrests and convictions of those responsible. The FBI (news - web sites), which is leading the investigation, suspects an out-of-state group is responsible for the mink release at the Roesler Brothers Fur Farm off U.S. Highway 2.
The Animal Liberation Front, considered a domestic terrorist group by the FBI, has claimed responsibility. Weaver argues that the group that released the animals didnât think of the repercussions. "Iâm not into anyone running around with fur coats on," he said. "But you cannot let 10,000 semicarnivorous animals out without having serious consequences." My big hope is that these shitheads hit the wrong place at the wrong time when Billy Bob is waiting on them with his shotgun. Looking forward to that.
Israel on Friday sent bulldozers and tanks into the Beit Hanoun area of the northern Gaza Strip to uproot swaths of farmland the military says is used as cover for cross-border rocket attacks, Palestinian witnesses and the military said. That followed an earlier push into Gaza late Thursday, shortly after one of the Qassam rockets fired by Palestinians struck near the coastal city of Ashkelon, the deepest hit yet into Israel. Early Friday, a military engineering corps drove four bulldozers into the edge of northern Gaza, and, under the protection of five battle tanks, cleared brush and orchards that the military says is used as cover for militants firing homemade rockets into Israel. Remember how the PA cops said they tried to catch the guys who fired the rockets yesterday?
The military said that the force found the abandoned launcher that was used to fire Thursdayâs rocket just 15 meters away from a Palestinian police post. Humm, must have been eating too many doughnuts.
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 2:59:43 PM ||
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#1
Might as well clear out the PA cop shack, as it seems quite redundant.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 15:36 Comments ||
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#2
Gaza Strip CSI
"Detective Abdul,did you hear that?Sounded just like someone launched a rocket next door."
"Relax,Officer Yassim,it was obviously some kids and their firecrackers.Nothing to worry about."
Posted by: Stephen ||
08/29/2003 16:39 Comments ||
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#3
expect to see a whining story with the poor orchard owner crying about how his livelihood was done in by the Joooos....with increased range on the Qassams the IDF will just dig bigger and bigger dead zones of wideopen, unfarmable land...way to go Paleos!
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 16:46 Comments ||
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James Lileks has the answer:
"Why not nuke North Koreaâs nuke test? Theyâve said theyâre going to have a test; I presume we know where that will be. So we nuke it the day before. Thereâs a big explosion, a mushroom cloud; they blame us. We say what are you talking about? You said you were going to light one off. And you did. No! You did it! Right. We nuked your nuke test. And that makes sense . . . how, exactly? It would certainly keep them off their game. And just after we nuke the test - and every subsequent test, of course - we put a call to Liâl Kimâs cellphone, and someone with a Texas accent says oh, Iâm sorry, wrong number. I was tryinâ to reach a live man."
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 10:40:17 AM ||
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#7
A few problems, alas: missile bearing our nuke would be tracked by both NKor and SKor radar. Oh, no missile, an F-119 instead? Nope, no good, too many people in the know, and the word would get out. Then there would be hell to pay.
Best response: do nothing. After the NKors test their nuke, we yawn politely and say, "Aw, that's nice, remind us how you were planning to feed your people this evening?"
The threat to test is nothing more than diplomatic pique and frustration -- the NKors can't move us and they know it. And now they've made China lose face. They've already lost and don't know it.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 16:15 Comments ||
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#8
Like your idea.Of course you assume NKs have nuke to test.If they did have one to test,where on earth could they test what would have to be a very dirty bomb?China?Pyongyang?Seoul?Have the French rented out their test site?Underground,where the world wouldn't know about it?(Rest of world would have to take US word for it-doubtful.)
Posted by: Stephen ||
08/29/2003 16:49 Comments ||
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#9
I think the leaders and intelligence services of various nations would take at face value a private statement from us that someone had tested a nuke. Public reactions might differ.
WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration plans to require federal agencies to submit for scientific peer review all significant research done in preparation for issuing new regulations and other actions. The Office of Management and Budget is expected to announce the move Friday. It represents a major victory for the administrationâs business allies, who have raised concerns about the science underlying agency actions on issues such as workplace ergonomics and second-hand smoke.
But already Thursday, the move was stirring concerns among some self-styled consumer advocates worried that it could raise significant hurdles for forthcoming rules on a variety of issues such as pesticide exposure and terrorist threats at chemical plants. But we activists donât take science courses -- this is UNFAIR!
Posted by: Norman Rogers ||
08/29/2003 8:12:47 AM ||
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*Shakes head* Doesn't mean a blessed thing: There is a lot of evidence that "scientific" journals that champion "Global warming" use a biased peer review process, sending ALL papers, pro AND con, ONLY to "Global Warming" advocates, who (obviously) warmly praise junk papers supporting their position and erecting artificially high hurdles when the papers present empirical evidence otherwise. (The people whose papers are rejected are not told who peer reviewed them, but at conferences, they swap notes and realized none of their number were ever sent a paper to peer review that was on global warming.)
The vast majority of anti-global warming sceintists are active meteorologists and experimental Climatologists: the very ones who deal with the raw data. The majority of global warming advocates are theoreticians who pay more attention to their computer simulations and use carefully selected historical data to "calibrate" their "models".
Believe me, I've been in the academic jungle, and have seen how the food chain is set up. You'll always find a "researcher" at some prestigious university who's willing to prostitute themselves for a grant.
#3
Yeah, why let hard science get in the way of regulations. After all, we are doing it for The Children(tm).
Posted by: Steve ||
08/29/2003 9:50 Comments ||
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#4
Every little bit of change to the process helps. Prior to this EPA would make rules without even publishing the supporting data, forcing industry to pursue long, expensive lawsuits to get their hands on the data. By the time it was released, the rule had been on the books too long to change anything. This, combined with the Data Quality Act, will be a big help.
It's also a good sign that the Administration went ahead with the Clean Air Act changes to NSR (started under Clinton, by the way) and have just rejected the silly notion that CO2 is a pollutant. Maybe somebody's getting some cojones in the EPA.
#5
Maybe somebody's getting some cojones in the EPA
didn't Christie Whitman just get fired resign to spend more time with the family?
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 17:15 Comments ||
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#6
Peer Review?! I bet RJ Reynolds paid scientists will be "peer reviewing" smoking issues; Archer Daniels Midland purveyor of corporate jets to the Doles paid scientists will deal with agricultural issues --the fox is back in the henhouse folks! I'll give the Repooplicans credit tho' --this time they don't have Newtie ranting and turning off middle America while they are gutting every regulation possible to pay off their corporate masters. Please, please bring out DeLay so the elctorate can see the real
GOP!
Posted by: Not Mike Moore ||
08/29/2003 17:26 Comments ||
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#7
Okay.... Which one of youse guys is hidin' Delay? Is it you, Steve?
Anyway, NMM-- your position seems to be that it's a bad thing to have scientists review the work of bureaucrats because some scientists do junk science. Is that a fair summary? If so, your position is, er, idiotic.
(to complement Steve Whiteâs earlier post)
The 2,000 pages of phone and radio transcripts from the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in New York City released by the Port Authority Thursday include hundreds of gory and often heartbreaking typed and handwritten reports by police officers and civilian employees who survived the attacks ... Numerous officers wrote about the horror of seeing people jump from the upper floors. "A steady stream of bodies and debris was raining down. Inspector Fields was about to run into the building and I stopped him. A man was coming down, he hit with such force it sounded like a shotgun going off. Inspector Fields put a hnd (sic) on the wall to steady himself, he said âOh my God,â " one police chief wrote.
Another officer described how a group of officers ran one at a time from the sidewalk into the tower to avoid being hit by falling bodies. Many of the officers escorted people out of the building minutes before the towers collapsed. One officer described hearing a noise "like a thousand freight" trains when the first tower collapsed ... One officer described the gruesome sight of body parts on the ground after the collapse of the first tower. The word "helpless" was used numerous times as officers described how they felt that morning. One officer described seeing injured people evacuating the tower. "I could see the panic in their eyes as they looked at me," he wrote ... Despite the horrific events of that morning and the loss of 87 Port Authority police officers and employees, many expressed pride in the actions of the department that morning. "We could never have foreseen this tragic event or loss of life. However, in spite of the loss and grief we regrouped, moved forward and kept the department running," one police sergeant wrote. "Never forgive, never forget" and I would add, never again.
Posted by: Raphael ||
08/29/2003 3:54:27 AM ||
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Bloggers Michele of A Small Victory and Rachel Lucas are doing their small part to keep the memories alive. Each has a project. Rachel has news recordings to preserve, and Michele is preserving the stories of people, world-wide, from 9/11. Please vist them and make an appropriate contribution. If you blog, please consider a post memorializing the day.
#3
It would be interesting if a group of people could buy airtime for 9/11-and surrounding days-which would feature the footage of the planes
slamming into the towers.
If "truth.com" can run anti-tobacco ads, I would think that "never-forget.org" could remind the American people that we are indeed in a war.
#4
if the Saudis can pay their whore lawyers in Washington to produce lying PSA's then they should be followed every time by a clip of the faces and nationalities of the 19 f*&kers and their planes flying into the towers
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 13:01 Comments ||
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"World Trade Center . . . repeat, we have something . . . going into the top of the World Trade Center!"
"The World Trade Center, it just blew up."
"Get outside! Get the hell outside!"
"Theyâre jumping out of Building One on the south side."
These are the voices, raw, unfiltered, of police officers and civilians at the World Trade Center on the final morning of its existence. Under a court order, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey late today released roughly 1,800 pages of transcripts, covering about 260 hours of recorded telephone calls and radio transmissions made in the immediate aftermath of the Sept 11, 2001 attacks. The new transcripts, based on reel-to-reel tapes recovered from the wreckage of 5 World Trade Center weeks after two aircraft flew into the towers, provide a vivid, chaotic, real-time narrative of what happened that morning.
Confusion is epidemic. There are repeated rumors that rockets have been fired from the Woolworth Building. Someone claims terrorists with explosives are fleeing through New Jersey in a Ford van with New York tags. People are in shock. Several callers to police, unaware of what is happening, report burglar alarms going off in the towers. In the initial moments, almost everyone struggles to comprehend the dimensions of the catastrophe.
MALE: Yo, Iâve got dozens of bodies, people just jumping from the top of the building onto . . . in front of One World Trade.
FEMALE: Sir, you have what jumping from buildings?
MALE: People. Bodies are just coming from out of the sky . . . up top of the building.
FEMALE: Thatâs a copy.
A man calls his daughter:
"Itâs me, Dad. . . . We had an explosion at the World Trade Center. But Iâm okay. So donât you worry. You just tend to your school business. . . . I love you, bye."
His fate is unknown.
A police officer barks into his radio:
"We need water . . . burning jet fuel on five-one."
A colleague asks, "Smell of jet fuel?"
"Negative. Burning jet fuel. Burning jet fuel."
A young man answering the phone at a police desk near the ground floor is nonchalant about a plane hitting the building.
"It will affect new paperwork. . . . Only the paperwork," he says.
A woman asks him, "Itâs a big plane or a little plane?"
"Gotta be small," he says.
Seconds later, the second plane hits and, with the shock wave passing through the structure, he changes his tune: "Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa -- that didnât feel good."
Previous accounts of events inside the buildings have largely come from survivors and family members of victims, who recounted telephone calls from those trapped inside. Some who died also managed to send numerous e-mails and leave messages on answering machines. A 78-minute transcript of Fire Department transmissions also has been made public. Yet many family members say they still donât know exactly what happened to their loved ones, some of whom vanished after making fleeting farewell phone calls. The transcripts released today wonât solve most of those remaining mysteries, but they do present a sizable and often harrowing addition to the historical record of Sept. 11, 2001. The material is largely from police radio transmissions and civilian phone calls. The calls were not to 911, but to Port Authority police lines at several locations in New York and New Jersey. The Port Authority has its own police force, and lost 37 officers, which the agency says was the worst single-day loss of any police force in U.S. history. More than half of those officers are identifiable on the tapes. "It shows people performing their duties very professionally and very heroically on a day of unimaginable horror," said Greg Trevor, a Port Authority spokesman and survivor of the attack. "We always knew in our hearts that these people were heroes to the end. Now we know for sure."
The first plane hit the North Tower at 8:46 a.m. Not for another 16 minutes would the second plane slam into the South Tower. But in some cases, people in the South Tower were told to remain in place rather than evacuate. The South Tower collapsed at 9:59 a.m., followed by the collapse of the North Tower at 10:28 a.m.
MAN ON 92ND FLOOR: We need to know if we need to get out of here, because we know thereâs an explosion, I donât know what building.
OFFICER: Do you have any smoke . . . smoke conditions up in your location at Two?
MAN: No, we just smell it, though.
OFFICER: Okay.
MAN: Should we be staying here, or should we evacuate? . . . Iâm . . . Iâm waiting.
After a bit of cross talk, he asks again:
MAN: Should we stay or should we go?
OFFICER: I would wait till further notice. . . .
MAN: Okay, all right. Donât evacuate.
It is unclear in the transcripts if those people survived.
Shortly after the second plane hit, Port Authority police received a call from a Port Authority official.
"Iâm on the 64th floor . . . in Tower One. . . . Iâve got about 20 people here with me. . . . What do you suggest?"
The desk sergeant tells him to "stand tight . . . it looks there is also an explosion in Two . . . so be careful. Stay near the stairwells and wait for the police to come up."
"They will come up, huh? Okay. They will check every floor? Look, if you would just report that weâre up here," the official says amid a loud commotion.
"I got you," the desk sergeant said.
A little more than an hour later, the official calls again.
"Iâm in the Trade Center, Tower One. Iâm with the Port Authority and we are on the 64th floor. The smoke is getting kind of bad, so we are going to . . . we are contemplating going down the stairway. Does that make sense?"
"Yes, try to get out," the desk sergeant says.
But itâs too late. The tower collapses.
Trevor, the Port Authority spokesman, pointed out tonight that he and his colleagues on the 68th floor of the North Tower were told to evacuate almost immediately, and any incorrect guidance to others was due to the confusion and uncertainty of the moment.
Many of the transcripts capture the staccato utterances of gasping police officers trying to cope with a rapidly disintegrating situation. Here and there, almost hidden in the cross talk, individual stories play out. One is that of a stoic carpenter, identified in the transcripts only as "MALE 103," a contract employee with a Port Authority radio. The agency declined to identify him tonight, but said that his family had received counseling after reading the transcript.
MALE 103: Structure fire one-o-three open up! . . .
MALE 103: Structural fire one-o-three. . . . Open up 103, can you hear me, you got a guy here. . . . [Breathing heavily] Got a body stuck on 103, place is filling up with smoke. . . .
He does not panic.
MALE 103: Need instruction . . . 103 . . . smoke coming up.
For what appears to be several minutes, he continues to transmit. He says the heat is increasing.
MALE 103: Structural fire, 103. . . . Need immediate purge.
Nothing more is heard from him.
Higher up yet, people are suffocating at Windows on the World. A woman tells police,
"The situation on 106 is rapidly getting worse. . . . We . . . we have . . . the fresh air is going down fast! Iâm not exaggerating."
The officer answers, "Uh, maâam, I know youâre not exaggerating. Weâre getting a lot of these calls. We are sending the Fire Department up as soon as possible."
"What are we going to do for air?" she asks.
"Maâam, the Fire Department . . ."
"Can we break a window?"
"You can do whatever you have to, to get to, uh, the air."
"All right."
The documents had been sought in a lawsuit filed by the New York Times, and a New Jersey judge last Friday ordered the agency to release the transcripts. The Port Authority chose not to appeal the ruling, but pleaded with the news media to withhold gruesome and gratuitous details "that do nothing to further this discussion." The Port Authority contacted family members of some victims so they could review the sensitive material before it was made public.
"As a family member, you canât imagine the horror of finding your loved oneâs last words," said Carie Lemack, whose mother, Judy Larocque, was on American Airlines Flight 11 and was killed when it hit the North Tower. "What is the reason for releasing these tapes? If itâs safety, thatâs fantastic. But if itâs entertainment, then weâre very concerned."
Liz Aldermanâs son, Peter, had been attending a conference at Windows on the World atop the North Tower. His last communication to his family was an e-mail sent on his BlackBerry at 9:25 a.m. He wrote, "Weâre stuck. The room is filling with smoke. Iâm scared." His mother notes that his writing was coherent, not panic-stricken. She assumes he lived a while longer. "The most important facts Iâll never know. I donât know how long Peter lived, how he died, and whether he suffered," she says. She doesnât believe that the transcripts will change that, but she is glad they are public. "Every time we can put a human face on this," she says, "it no longer is just a mass murder." With every respect to Ms. Alderman and all the other victims, it most certainly was mass murder.
Never forgive, never forget.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 12:50:53 AM ||
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Steve, I think Ms. Alderman agrees with you; she is saying it is not "just" a mass murder.
This is why we need to exterminate the militant Islamic extremists, especially those who may have WMD'S, or we'll have another 9/11, or worse.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
08/29/2003 1:17 Comments ||
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#2
Joe -- you're right, I did mis-read it. Thanks.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 2:40 Comments ||
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#3
Show no mercy where none was shown. Give them no quarter as none will be given us. Wipe them out.
#4
It brings it all back again, and my resolve remains firm. The animals who did this need to be put down permanently,
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
08/29/2003 8:06 Comments ||
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#5
I try to be a rational person. But God bless George Bush. On that day, if I were President... the old phrase "Kill 'em all, let God sort them out" would have been so tempting.
#6
I'll admit that I occasionally find it necessary to visit one of the websites that contain graphic images of people falling from the towers... not pleasant, but it renews my ire supply.
#7
Chuck, I disagree. If 3000 die and it doesn't elicit a nuclear response, what will it take? That macabre game is probably now being played in Riyadh and a War Academy outside of Beijing. Bush may have introduced a credibility gap into the use of the American nuclear arsenal.
Posted by: Brian ||
08/29/2003 11:20 Comments ||
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Brian, I don't believe that any United States government has ever intended to use nuclear weapons. The only stated reason to use them is the use of WMD on us. I believe that this is a gun we have never intended to draw from its holster. I think it's a consensus, Packs and Donks, no use of nukes for any reason, unless we're hit with WMD. Even then, the definition of WMD will become very fluid.
#9
I don't have a reference to hand, but I thought the pentagon intended to use tactical nukes first, should soviet troops have invaded western Europe back in the fifties.
That was true in the old days when we had a Strategic Air Command too. Today Mr. Simmins is correct. Nukes are an expensive and useless albatross around our neck that deprive usable weapons systems and troops of adequate funding. The sooner we figure this out and deal with it, the sooner we'll have enough troops for Iraq.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
08/29/2003 12:18 Comments ||
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#11
Bulldog, the Pentagon has plans for everything. The issue is, would Ike have authorized first use of nukes to repel a Soviet invasion? Would any President?
Mr. Davis, I advocate a few nukes, 500 =/-, all sizes and shapes, just for any emergency. Maintaining an arsenal of the size that we currently have is hard to justify. But we should have some, top-of-the-line, current science nukes. If nothing more than to impress the wogs.
#12
Chuck, I think it was the preferred, if not reflex, response, given the overwhelming strength of the soviet ground forces compared with those the west could muster. It was the only chance of stopping the Ruskies rolling to the Atlantic within in a fortnight.
#13
There was certainly no first strike tactical plan in the 70s. We gamed it over and over from Fulda to the Rhine... tac nukes were only occasionally gamed, and then we only responded to Russki first-use.
With 5:1 Soviet tank superiority we planned conventional defense-in-depth, with air power as the equalizer. Sometimes it worked. Nukes always worked out better for the Soviets, once they got introduced.
Brian, I seem to remember this came up before... just whom should GWB have nuked? Your whole nuclear credibility argument is very weak, IMO. If nothing else, it shows that the US is one of the better choices, if you have to have nuclear states.
The US was not in peril of its national existence, and I don't think there is much doubt in anyone's mind about our willingness to use nuclear weapons in that unlikely event.
I would like every jihadi, and every coy little millionaire jihadi financier, drawn and quartered and fed to hogs. But I don't understand how incinerating foreign capitals would have helped the WTC/Pentagon victims or the US, at all. It would also have lowered the standards for atomic warfare by all parties, which would be a highly stupid thing to do.
Posted by: Mark IV ||
08/29/2003 14:47 Comments ||
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#14
9/11 warranted a lot of things, a tactical NUKE
strike wasn't one of them. I believe the calculus
and the formulas for when and how to justify
a first strike exist.
I think NK, Iran and Syria are all more lilely
candidates for first strike.
But remember we must maintain the double standard
(we can have'em they can't) so we clearly use them
with far more discretion.
Remember the benefits of using the nukes must outweight the economic shockwave induced.
I do believe though that if I was in the Forbidden City, looking over war plans with Taiwan, I'd be a shitload more adventerous knowing the Americans lose 3000 people without a nuclear counterresponse.
Posted by: Brian ||
08/29/2003 20:32 Comments ||
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#16
Mr. Davis,
What a bullshit response. We already have "enough" troops in Iraq. We only have to use them correctly.
Posted by: Uncle Joe ||
08/29/2003 23:15 Comments ||
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EFL
The Security Council voted unanimously Thursday to split the job of chief war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte, allowing a new prosecutor to handle cases from Rwandaâs 1994 genocide while she focuses on the Balkans. The resolution, sponsored by the United States, sets out a timetable for completing the work of both the Rwanda and Yugoslav tribunals by 2010.
That's ummm... (divide by 48, carry the 2...) seven years from now. Talk about job security!
The tribunals "can most efficiently and expeditiously meet their respective responsibilities if each has its own prosecutor," the council said. "And, of course, now Carla can screw up only one set of prosecutions."
Can you use "expeditiously" when you're talking about seven years? I might have said "leisurely," perhaps...
Since September 1999, Del Ponte has been responsible for trying those accused of major war crimes during the wars in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s and the leaders of the genocide in Rwanda that killed more than 500,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu political moderates. Many countries argue that the Rwandan tribunal, based in Arusha, Tanzania, has not made as much progress as the Yugoslav one. A variety of reasons have been cited, from bureaucratic inefficiency to friction with the Rwandan government, staff shortages and insufficient attention from Del Ponteâs staff, based in The Hague, Netherlands. Not to mention French complicity with the Rwandan genocide, which Carla would prefer to gloss over.
And the fact that the hotels in Arusha just don't compare...
With Del Ponteâs contract set to expire Sept. 15, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan recommended last month that she be given a new four-year contract to focus entirely on the Yugoslav tribunal while a new prosecutor is chosen to concentrate on Rwanda. Del Ponte had argued before the Security Council and Annan that she could do both tasks, but Annan stuck by his recommendation to split the job to improve efficiency. Wonder what Carla did to anger Kofi?
Perhaps Kofi barked his shins stumbling over the obvious?
The Security Council resolution changes the statute of the Rwanda tribunal so it can have its own prosecutor and welcomes Annanâs intention to nominate Del Ponte to head the Yugoslav tribunal for four years. "The significance of this is that weâve been interested for some time in improving the functioning of both courts," said U.S. deputy ambassador James Cunningham. Del Ponte is satisfied that the prosecutorâs independence "has not been challenged" and she "is available for a new four-year term," her spokeswoman Florence Hartmann said in The Hague. "Oh, please, please, pick me! Pick me! I love the per diems! Oh, pick me!"
The Rwandan government lobbied hard for a new prosecutor. "This tribunal, the way it has been acting so far, is not about Rwanda, Rwandans and victims of the genocide," Rwandaâs Attorney General Gerard Gahima said after hearing of the Security Councilâs decision. "We hope that the tribunal can at this late hour pull its act together and do a good job of what itâs been entrusted to do." Del Ponteâs office has clashed with the Rwandan government, notably over the courtâs efforts to investigate abuses by members of the Tutsi-led rebels who stopped the genocide, took power and still control the government. The resolution calls on all governments to assist in the investigations of the Rwandan Patriotic Army, headed by President Paul Kagame. Yep, sounds like Carla is playing the French line here.
The council resolution, adopted by a 15-0 vote, directs both tribunals to focus on prosecuting leaders and to transfer cases involving intermediate- and lower-ranking suspects to national courts. It urges both courts "to take all possible measures" to follow the timetable to wind up their work. All investigations must be completed by the end of 2004, all initial trials must be finished by the end of 2008, and all work must be wrapped up in 2010. The Rwandan court has completed 15 cases and has 61 in progress. It holds 55 detainees, more than half of whom are awaiting trial. Those on trial in the Yugoslav tribunal include former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. Donât worry, Slobo, theyâll get around to you.
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 12:33:43 AM ||
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The truth is that Carla Del Ponte is going for the case who brings fame and is dropping the Rwandan ganocide because it doesn't bring fame. At the height of the Rwandan genocide (twenty thousand deads PER DAY) the papers were full of advertisements for NGOs operating in Bosnia and no-peep for Rwanda. Aftar all you don't want Mrs Del Ponte spend her precious time on niggers.
North Korea said Friday that prospects for another round of nuclear talks were in jeopardy because of inflexibility on the part of U.S. negotiators, a South Korean news agency reported. ``As the United States refuses to express intentions to switch over its hostile policy against North Korea, prospects for the next round of talks have fallen into danger,'' said KCNA, the North's news agency. KCNA was quoted by Yonhap, a South Korean agency.
Ummm... Maybe that Chinese guy ought to check his notes...
The comments came at a six-nation meeting in China that included representatives of the United States, South Korea, China, Japan and Russia as well as North Korea. The meeting resumed Friday. A U.S. government official said in Washington on Thursday that North Korea rejected U.S. disarmament plans, saying it will prove to the world that it possesses nuclear weapons by carrying out a nuclear test. According to the official, North Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Yong Il also said in Beijing that his country has the means to deliver nuclear weapons, an apparent reference to its highly-developed missile program.
Y'know, I might be pretty provincial, but that doesn't seem like a formula for a nuclear-free Korean peninsula...
``The United States said that the next round of talks can continue if we express our willingness to give up our nuclear plans at this time,'' KCNA said. ``That means they plan to act after we dismantle,'' the agency said. It was unclear what North Korea meant by ``act,'' though it could refer to the possibility of U.S. willingness to negotiate, or North Korean suspicions that Washington seeks to undermine the North through economic pressure or even military action. ``This kind of demand is beyond common sense. We cannot but point out the real intentions of the United States,'' the agency said.
"It's all about... uhhh... white slag!"
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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North Korea reportedly agreed yesterday to keep working with its neighbours for a nuclear-free peninsula â a concession which could conceivably pave the way for a settlement to its standoff with the US.
Did the Chinese negotiators take them in the back room and slap them?
On the second day of six-nation talks in Beijing, China said that the delegates had agreed on the need to meet again within months â the most that analysts expected from the meeting. But in a surprise departure from North Korea's usual stance, its delegates were also said to have accepted that the shared objective of all parties was a region free of such weapons.
Well, that's definitely a surprise departure from shrieking and drooling and threating destruction to all corners of the world while extolling the virtues of the legendary kimchi of Mount Whatsizname...
"The parties reiterated that denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula is the common goal of all sides, and the nuclear issue should be resolved peacefully through diplomatic means," said the Chinese foreign ministry.
Which is not, we should point out, the North Korean foreign ministry...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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This is from al-Guardian so the reporter must be parroting the Chicom take on the talks. Sorta conflicts with the NORK view in the previous article. The Chicoms undees much be in a bunch after these talks!
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
08/29/2003 0:38 Comments ||
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General Wesley Clark, a former US general who commanded Nato's war in Kosovo, is poised to announce whether he will run for the White House next month and enter the Democratic primaries, party officials said yesterday.
So he made his choice, but he ain't sayin', so we're all supposed to sit around and ask each other: "Big Boy: Will he stay or go?"... Uhhh... Make that, "Wesley: Will he defecate or decommode?"
Gen Clark has mounted a media blitz over the past few weeks, appearing on a string of television talk shows to discuss his critical views on US policy in Iraq. He has also won his wife's approval, which had been a major hurdle to entering the race, a Democratic official, who supports a Clark candidacy, said.
Well, if the little woman said he could, I guess it's okay. But be home by 11, young man!
"You're looking at someone who has already made his choice," the official said. The New York Times yesterday quoted an unnamed friend of the ex-soldier as saying: "He is going to do it. He's just going back and forth as to when."
How 'bout in 2024?
However, another official said Gen Clark was mulling over a final decision. He is said to be trying to assess his chances in the Democratic primary elections, particularly against Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont, who has taken a similarly strong line in criticism of the administration's foreign policy and who has already raised a campaign fund of about $20m (£12.7m).
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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The fact that he comes from Arkansas says everything to me. A couple of things about Clark, he was the commanding General for DELTA during Waco and there were some questionabl thigs there, and then his conduct during Bosnia was simply bizarre. Yeah, I really want this nutcracker running the country!?!
Posted by: Douglas De Bono ||
08/29/2003 8:08 Comments ||
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#3
Man, I was going to go on vacation this weekend. I better spend my time glued to the tube.
#4
1864
Abraham Lincoln, lawyer, captain during the Blackhawk War, representative for one term to Congress, failed in bid for Senator, popular vote 2,216,067, electorial 212
General George McClellan, professional soldier, twice commander of the Army of the Potomac, popular vote 1,808,725, electorial 21
NB - Abe was one of the most vilified presidents within the context of his time and we're not talking about the southern press either. Read the contemporary press of the period.
Posted by: Don ||
08/29/2003 9:54 Comments ||
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#5
Great, just what we need, another John Kerry "To Run or Not To Run" routine, repeated a dozen times.
Wait 'til Hillary announces plans for '04 (that's where my money is); all others will fall off the map.
#6
This is candidate #10 or 11 for the Dems? It's starting to look a lot like Christmas 1984...
Posted by: Brian ||
08/29/2003 11:22 Comments ||
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#7
I wonder if anyone in the Democratic party is looking over the list of candidates and shaking his/her head? Don't they realize how much this ever-growing list of losers is saying about their party? Have they fallen for their own propaganda to the point they cannot make rational decisions based on facts? The fact that the other candidates in the race make Howard Dean look good should be enough of an eye-opener!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
08/29/2003 11:35 Comments ||
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#8
If Clark runs there will be a lot of people who served with Clark who will want to vent about this fellow. Also some Kosovars etc. who may want to vent. Of course, most of the media will try to suppress this as long as possible but it will come out eventually. It is possible that Clark is such an ego he doesn't know this.
#9
Isn't this the same general who, when he had his official retirement ceremony, was basically stiffed by the rest of the command staff? And the people who were there were basically ordered to be there? I think the only way they could have dissed him more was to be standing facing the other way during the whole thing. If this guy is what the Democrats consider "strong on defense", Bush is going to cruise to an easy victory in 2004.
Posted by: Baba Yaga ||
08/29/2003 16:36 Comments ||
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#10
Oh, I think some of you boys doth protest too much. I can hardly wait to see the first one-on-one debate between Clarke and his appointedness. After detailing Gen Clarks resume perhaps someone will ask Shrub's qualifications: ran two businesses into the ground and had to be bailed out by daddy's friends, and went AWOL from his safe reserve unit during Vietnam. Daddy intervened and kept him from being courtmarshalled. Only "president" ever arrested for possession. Oh, yeah. Can't wait.
#11
Look, Hillary announced she's " Considering her options' with her husband and advisers.
Hillary will enter the race and choose Dean as her VP. Of course, Hillary will get about 90% of the womens vote, Dems will vote for her, and Reps who don't like Bush will vote for her.
I'm already considering moving to a different country if she wins. Hello universal healthcare ( Frances system ).
Posted by: Charles ||
08/29/2003 17:28 Comments ||
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#12
Hillary and Dean. Dean and Hillary. Hillary and Clarke. Clarke and Hillary. Dean and Clarke. Clarke and Dean. So many choices. So much fun.
Best bet to win: Clarke and Dean. Hillary and Dean not bad either, but both are from the east. Better start packing my friend. Two intelligent well spoken men against a guy who can't say three words without the word "UH", and can't remember if Africa is a country or a continent.
Did anyone notice that Clarke is from Arkansas? There goes the solid Republican south.
#13
Yes, I noticed that Clarke is from Arkansas. I also noticed that Gore lost Tennessee.
Posted by: Phil Fraering ||
08/29/2003 18:22 Comments ||
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#14
Gore lost Tennessee, but won the popular vote. Idon't think Bush will be quite that lucky the second time, especially since Kathryn Harris isn't around anymore to fix the Florida election.
The funny thing is, Bush didn't even need to go to the Supreme court to fix things for him, and would have far smarter if he hadn't.
Without Fl vote, neither man would have won, and the election would have gone to congress, where each state gets one vote, irregardless of it's population. Bush would have won there easily, and 38% of the population wouldn't still be convinced that he stole the election. Including me.
#16
Charles, aren't you lucky, being able to pick and choose what country you live in. I guess you're also lucky enough to assume you will never fall on hard times and then get sick.
Some people have all the luck and all universal health care means is everyone has an equal chance to get better if they are unlucky enough to get sick. equality of opportunity - it's the American way isn't it?
why should only the lucky have a right to good health? why shouldn't one legitimate role of government be to secure the well-being and good health of ALL its citizens?
love billy
Posted by: Billy Bloggs ||
08/30/2003 20:20 Comments ||
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The hippopotamus population in eastern Congo, once home to the world's largest concentration of the water-loving animals, has been dramatically reduced by civil war and poaching, the World Wildlife Fund said Friday. A survey in Virunga National Park by WWF and local conservation bodies showed that only 1,300 hippos remain, compared with 29,000 less than 30 years ago, a reduction of more than 95 percent, WWF said.
Some to think of it, I haven't seen many pygmies lately, either. Wonder what happened to them?
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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Wonder how many people you can feed with a hippo?
Posted by: Steve White ||
08/29/2003 0:12 Comments ||
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MEMRI translation of an editorial in the Lebanese Christian daily Al-Nahar, not that Christian opinions count for much in Lebanon...
Who determines military actions in the south [of Lebanon]? We, as Lebanese, have a right to know how these types of decisions are made, [decisions] that directly affect all of Lebanon and all Lebanese. It is our right to know if Hizbullah alone makes these decisions and on what basis they do so. Is it Syria who makes the decisions and passes orders onto the Hizbullah? Is it Iran? Lebanon? And what is the strategy? It is our right to know and even participate in such critical decisions; otherwise, Lebanon is a jungle with no central decision-making authority.
That's a fairly accurate description, I'd say...
The Lebanese country, and particularly the government of Lebanon, as the executive authority responsible for policy-making, must be directly responsible for Hizbullah operations in the south, since it purports to be a country of laws and institutions that has full sovereignty on the entire land of Lebanon. However, essentially, we know that it is not the country that determines the perpetuation of military operations in the south, and that Lebanon has no strategy in this areaâŠ
And if they got there, somebody beats them up and pulls their collective pants down...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
08/29/2003 00:03 ||
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It's almost surreal to read such an obvious piece of truth that I had to check a couple of times to be sure. Prolly his last editorial... I'll bet the ink's already dry on the fatwa to ace this guy.
#2
Note that neither the word 'Syria' nor the phrase 'foreign occupation' appears. Many of the Christians in Lebanon are willing to put up with the extortion and abuse of the Syrian army because they fear Hizbullah more.
#3
It's almost surreal to read such an obvious piece of truth that I had to check a couple of times to be sure.
Philosophically, Lebanese Christians are allies of Israel. Note that they once governed Lebanon, which was the only Christian-ruled Arab country. This is why Ehud Barak's negotiated withdrawal from South Lebanon was such a major betrayal for Lebanese Christians. The Jewish allergy to Christianity prevented them from doing much to keep the Christians in power in Lebanon. This may have been a major strategic error.
#4
? mwh?
"Is it Syria who makes the decisions and passes orders onto the Hizbullah?"
Posted by: Frank G ||
08/29/2003 13:03 Comments ||
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#5
"Jewish allergy to Christianity"???
_______________________Maronites had their chance and failed in 1982 to unite causes with the Israelis...it was certainly not the Jews who let the Maronites down at that crucial early stage...
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
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Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
