RIYADH - Three Saudi nationals held by the United States in Guantanamo Bay have been handed over to Saudi authorities, Saudi Arabiaâs state television said on Wednesday. It gave no details of the three detainees but said their families had been informed of their return to the kingdom.
Treated like heroes or taken for a short drive into the desert?
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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Note: This post and additional commentary warrant an official Beverage Alert. Please set down your coffee before proceeding to the post. The management will not be responsible for damage to any keyboard or monitor ...
Following are excerpts from a Friday sermon by Dr. Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudais, aired on Saudi Arabia's Channel 1 on July 15, 2005.
"With all the violence and bombings that today's world has suffered, and with all the terrorism and destruction which have robbed the world of sleep, which are considered by all intelligent and honorable people as criminal, which are prohibited by all esteemed Muslim scholars, and whose negative effects afflict the Islamic nation â one of the most dangerous wars to afflict the Islamic nation and to cause atrophy and decadence to nations and civilizations is the war against virtue and to promote vice.
Uh oh. He's gonna rant against titties...
"The noble Islamic law deals with all issues. One of the most important issues is protecting women's honor â indeed, defending families, and protecting societies and generations from the flames of vice, from the removal of the veil, from the volcanoes of debauchery, from the storms of evil, from the armies of harlotry, from the voracity of pleasure, and from bestial libertinism.
"Aaaaar! Volcanoes of debauchery! Armies of harlots, with their large, milk-white bosoms! With plump, succulent, creamy thighs and rounded buttocks! With rounded, voracious mons veneris, ready to gobble up... gobble up... Oh, Allah! I must... I must... Shoot off!... My gun. I meant my gun..."
"The most dangerous weapon which the enemy has raised against us â with which he tore to pieces our established order, and with which he soiled our spiritual and social purity,
... with which he stained the sheets of the Ummah...
is the terrible deluge of all manner of vice, which is considered a form of moral terrorism against the values, ideals, and virtues of the Islamic nation.
"Yes! Terrorism, brethren and sistren! I, for one, am so very frightened! Why, my very bed quakes at night with my terror! Sometimes the neighbors complain about it, and once they called the cops, but that was all a misunderstanding, easily explained, really..."
"[This war is waged] by means of the licentious satellite channels and the vile spiderwebs of the Internet, whose gloom fills the sky with darkness and spreads its stench in all directions, and by means of those hidden computer discs, which are the cauldron of sin, consumed by the old, young, and inexperienced, while fathers, mothers, and educators are heedless and negligent.
"I'm talkin' about porn sites, brethren and sistern! With wimmin! Nekkid wimmin! With honkers and thighs and buttocks and... and... and their ankles behind their ears! Yes! I've seen them with my own... ummm... or so I've been told."
"Oh brethren in faith, morning has dawned upon all with eyes to see, without ambiguity or falsehood. It has become clear that the enemies of virtue, the marshals of licentiousness, and the heroes of sexual promiscuous pleasures have a most ill-fated hope and aspiration to export sexual diseases and vice in the form of a plague, which shall crush the fortresses of the Muslims, the fortresses of honor and virtue, and they hope that [Muslims] will abandon the castles of chastity, honor, and virtue, which have been effaced by time, and have become a matter of the past.
"They want us to get out there and fondle each other! To kiss and to hug and to take our burnooses off and... and... Hey! Where'd everybody go?"
"Oh, Allah, heal our sick, have mercy on our dead, release our prisoners, and save our Al-Aqsa Mosque. Oh Allah, liberate our Al-Aqsa Mosque from the defilement of the occupying and brutal Zionists. Oh Allah, make it high and mighty until Judgment Day. Oh Allah, punish the occupying Zionists and their supporters from among the corrupt infidels. Oh Allah, scatter and disperse them, and make an example of them for those who take heed."
Oh, Allah, make him shuddup.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
ROFL! The in-line commentary is priceless!
He left out the "shake the ground" bit too - has it fallen from favor, now? Used to be a staple of almost all the translated "sermons". *sniff* I guess Barbara's observation is true: they were the ones that kept getting zapped, so they decided not to tempt Allan anymore.
#9
Yes, yes, great inline commentary Fred! What is it with these guys and the al-aqsa mosque...you know, the 3,461st most holy site in all of Islam! Of course, I thought that true believers(tm) are against holy places, as it's a form of idolatry.
Posted by: BA ||
07/21/2005 8:40 Comments ||
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#11
Fred---THAT commentary was worthy of an RB Classic! LMAO! Humor is also a good weapon in the WoT. The fellow in the picture sure wintered well. The thing is that Dr. Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis (jeeze, the name has a vanishing point) believes his own sh*t.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/21/2005 12:13 Comments ||
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#15
...the heroes of sexual promiscuous pleasures...
Shouldn't that be "promiscuous sexual pleasures"? It sounds like it's the promiscuity that is being enjoyed, rather than the sex. And that would be, y'know, perverse...
TBILISI, Georgia (AP) - A man arrested after a fatal shootout with police has admitted to throwing a grenade at a rally in May where President Bush was making a speech, a Georgian official said Thursday.
The suspect, Vladimir Arutyunian, made the admission in the hospital, where he is being treated for wounds suffered during a shootout in a village on the outskirts of the capital, Tbilisi, when police tried to arrest him late Wednesday, Deputy Health Minister Irakly Giorgobiani said on Rustavi-2 television. One policeman was killed and Arutyunian fled into the woods. He was captured about an hour later and taken to a hospital for treatment of gunshot wounds.
Video released Thursday by Georgian authorities showed Arutyunian lying on a gurney being wheeled from the scene, one of his cheeks swollen and bloody. He made an obscene gesture at the camera.
Enjoy the moment while you can, asshole.
There was no immediate indication from authorities whether he was connected to any separatist groups in Georgia's breakway region of Abkhazia or nearby Chechnya. A news conference by the Interior Ministry was expected later Thursday.
In a statement Thursday, the U.S. Embassy in Georgia said it "welcomes the news that the Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs, through joint efforts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, diligent detective work and a strong commitment to solving this case, have taken into custody a suspect." But the embassy declined comment on whether the FBI was involved in the arrest or follow-up. Bush and Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili were on the podium in front of a thousands of people in Freedom Square in downtown Tbilisi when the live grenade was thrown. The grenade landed less than 100 feet from the podium but did not explode. A preliminary investigation indicated the activation device deployed too slowly to hit the blasting cap hard enough, the FBI said.
He had wrapped a scraf or cloth around the grenade to hide it, the scarf slowed down the release of the spoon so the striker didn't have enough force to fire the igniter.
Georgian officials initially claimed the grenade had not been set to explode, and U.S. officials said Bush had been in no danger, but officials they later said the grenade had been a threat to Bush's life. Georgian authorities had released a photo Monday of the suspect and announced a reward of about $80,000 for information leading to his identification.
Officials Thursday gave out little information about Arutyunian, described in news reports as being in his mid-20s and unemployed. But Interior Ministry spokesman Guram Donadze said grenades and unspecified chemicals were found in a search of Arutyunian's residence. The video showed police sorting through a pile of items apparently found in his apartment, including a book titled "Initial Military Training" that was part of the standard curriculum in Soviet schools.
Bush spoke from behind bulletproof glass as he addressed a huge crowd in a main Tbilisi square as part of a visit aimed at cementing relations between the United States and Georgia's new pro-Western leadership. Saakashvili, who came to power after the 2003 Rose Revolution that ousted Eduard Shevardnadze, has provoked enmity with his anti-corruption initiatives and insistence on restoring control over two separatist regions.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/21/2005 11:20 ||
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#1
Yet another puzzling manifestation of a deep-seated hatred for GW Bush. It is as if every liberal and extremist in the world has focused on him as the source of all evil. Be my guest, but to fuck with him (i.e. us) brings death and destruction.
#2
he won't be alive (or cocky) for long - a drill bit in the kneecap takes the "sassy" out of an asshole like that
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/21/2005 12:29 Comments ||
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#3
He had wrapped a scraf or cloth around the grenade to hide it, the scarf slowed down the release of the spoon so the striker didn't have enough force to fire the igniter.
I worry less and less about the paki boom
Posted by: Have Tongs Will Travel ||
07/21/2005 14:20 Comments ||
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SEOUL - North and South Korea will remove propaganda signs dotting hills where their armies have faced off for decades, military officers said on Wednesday after rare talks aimed at building trust across one of worldâs most fortified borders.
Military officers met at the Panmunjum truce village within the Demilitarised Zone and reached the agreement during talks to ease tensions between the armies that are still technically at war. The discussions were expected to only focus on setting the stage for a meeting of military generals from the two sides, but instead resulted in pushing forward the deal to remove the signs that was first agreed to last year but suspended due to strained ties, South Koreaâs Defence Ministry said.
The two sides also agreed to establish liaison offices for contact between their navies to avert armed conflict, ministry officials said. âThe importance of opening up the liaison offices is we can notify each other about illegal fishing boats and their exact locations,â said Army Colonel Moon Sung-muk, South Koreaâs top delegate to the talks.
The generals will meet as soon as possible near North Koreaâs Mount Paektu and the two sides will hold another round of military talks on Aug. 12 on the North Korean side of the Panmunjum truce village within the DMZ, the ministry said.
The talks reopened a channel of dialogue between the two militaries and come days before six-party talks in Beijing on ending North Koreaâs nuclear arms programme. Two rounds of talks by military generals last year resulted in an agreement to cease propaganda broadcasts along the Cold Warâs last frontier, tear down all propaganda signs and establish radio hotlines between the navies of the two Koreas.
The first major step in implementing that deal was taken on June 15, 2004 when North and South Korea stopped blaring high-decibel propaganda at each other across the DMZ to mark the fourth anniversary of a landmark summit between their leaders. Soldiers on the Southern side said they appreciated the change because it was now easier to sleep at night.
Both sides also dismantled propaganda signs along some parts of the border.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
Does this include the South Korean border chicken rotisseries?
Posted by: ed ||
07/21/2005 0:28 Comments ||
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#2
Hm, there's a project. Hi-power fans blowing various cooking odors across the border; dim sum, pizza, ribs, chicken, garlic steak, . . . .
Posted by: Brian H ||
07/21/2005 4:49 Comments ||
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#5
The two sides also agreed to establish liaison offices for contact between their navies to avert armed conflict, ministry officials said. âThe importance of opening up the liaison offices is we can notify each other about illegal fishing boats and their exact locations,â
Makes it easier to infiltrate that way, by the way. Call in a lost fishingboat and draw the South's Navy away from the chosen spot.
Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, yesterday stunned even his political opponents by claiming the terrorist attacks on the city a fortnight ago were motivated by British foreign policy in the Middle East. Shattering the political truce that had emerged since the four bomb attacks, Mr Livingstone said resentment was being fuelled as a result of the treatment of detainees by United States troops at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. He went so far as to suggest the English public would themselves resort to suicide bombings if placed under certain circumstances. While his remarks were condemned by politicians and diplomats, they echoed private criticism among Tony Blair's enemies on Labour's back-benches.
When asked what he thought had motivated the four suicide bombers who struck in London on 7 July, Mr Livingstone traced it back to Britain's historic role in the Middle East. "You've just had 80 years of western intervention into predominantly Arab lands because of the western need for oil. We've propped up unsavoury governments, we've overthrown ones we didn't consider sympathetic," he told Radio 4. "In the 1980s, Americans recruited and trained Osama bin Laden, taught him how to kill, to make bombs, and set him off to kill the Russians and drive them out of Afghanistan."
The United States, he said, was reaping its own harvest as "they didn't give any thought to the fact that, once he'd done that, [bin Laden] might turn on his creators". He was careful to say that his criticism of British and US foreign policy did not amount to sympathy for the bombers. "I do not support any suicide bombings. I don't ever recall supporting an act of violence," he said. But he made it clear that he regarded suicide attacks as the natural result of political decisions. "Under foreign occupation and denied the right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs, often denied the right to work for three generations, I suspect that if it had happened here in England, we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves.
"A lot of young people see the double standards; they see what happens in Guantanamo Bay, and they just think that there isn't a just foreign policy."
The rise of Islamic extremism across the world was, he said, the product of British policy to maintain a presence in the Arab world after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. "I have not the slightest doubt that if, at the end of the First World War, we had done what we promised the Arabs, which was to let them be free and have their own governments, and kept out of Arab affairs, and just bought their oil, rather than feeling we had to control the flow of oil, I suspect this wouldn't have arisen," he said. While Mr Livingstone has voiced such concerns before, his views were thought to have moderated since he was accepted back into the Labour Party last year.
Downing Street was taken aback by Mr Livingstone's outspoken remarks - but No 10 did not criticise him, praising his performance in the aftermath of the attacks a fortnight ago. "The Prime Minister and Ken Livingstone have different views of the world and that remains the case," said a spokesman. "Equally, however, we recognise that Ken Livingstone has provided, as an elected official in London, a lead to the people of London at this tragic time - at the same time as he expresses views which we fundamentally disagree with."
However, Zvi Heifetz, Israeli's ambassador to London issued a furious statement. "It is outrageous that the same mayor who rightfully condemned the suicide bombing in London as 'perverted faith', defends those who, under the same extremist banner, kill Israelis," he said.
David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said he denounced any attempt to empathise with the suicide bombers - whether from Mr Livingstone or Islamic clerics.
But the mayor's comments reflected the views of some Labour rebels, who have so far refrained from using the bombings to attack the Prime Minister in the House of Commons. "After a few weeks, it will be hard to conclude that Britain is not at more risk because of the war the Prime Minister led Britain into," one MP said yesterday. "And it will be hard not to conclude that he bears some of the blame."
There is increasing evidence that the British public link the London attacks with the Iraq war. An ICM opinion poll two days ago showed that two-thirds believe Mr Blair bears some responsibility for the terrorist attacks on the capital. The Prime Minister has vigorously rejected any such suggestion - and he reminded the Commons yesterday that 26 countries had faced attacks by al-Qaeda. Mr Livingstone, re-elected as the official Labour candidate to be London mayor last summer, is combining his criticism of British foreign policy with a robust line on anti-terrorism laws. He said yesterday he had "no problem at all" with plans to ban the "glorification of terrorism".
He has also echoed Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, in saying that concerns about civil liberties must be put into this context. "A pretty important civil right is the civil right not to be blown up on the way to work," he said yesterday.
#2
If not british colonial policy after WW1 then it would be the reconquest or the crusades. Red Ken doesn't get it, the bad guys have an agenda of conquest, yeah they may recycle his lefty excuses to convince useful idiots to sew decent but they don't care much about that really.
#3
Red Ken may have "fallen and can't get up" after today's attacks. Idjit
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/21/2005 10:59 Comments ||
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#4
Islam has been trying to take over the world since 600AD. Don't think they haven't stopped since getting thrown out of spain and the battle of Vienna. Now they are using the enemies in our own countries (see liberals) to do what they couldn't do through force of arms.
#5
Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, yesterday stunned even his political opponents by claiming the terrorist attacks on the city a fortnight ago were motivated by British foreign policy in the Middle East.
Please continue, Sir, and dipense all of your wisdom as you wish. Pay no attention to any criticism.
#6
And I suppose the events of today just prove his point?
Perchance he'll be strung up by those who don't care about explanations anymore?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 11:17 Comments ||
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#7
Well We Iranians in general from very top to the very bottom and ofcourse not the very few old goats that godwilling sooner will pay for all suffering they r causing Iranian people in general and Die after. In our history from childhood we believe the Amercans in general are good freinds of us not including some of Generals who would not hesitate to bomb US itself just for the fun of it.
and all the Iranians are have always aknowleged that as history has shown many times over the English are running the show as they were the hated so much in the world that now they encourage Amerika to do what the Amerkans Have not done in their glorified history.
sorry for my Language but i think sooner Iranian people and Amerikan people come together all the plots of English and the Arabs will be useless.
GOD BLESS Amerika GOD BLESS IRAN and all the peace loving and just people of the world.
LETS say I am also a "PATRIOT" and love to see the film many times over to see and see how the brits were kicked out of US.
#9
Well, Kenny, when they terrorize me into agreeing with you, I'll send you a fax.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 12:17 Comments ||
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"I have not the slightest doubt that if, at the end of the First World War, we had done what we promised the Arabs, which was to let them be free and have their own governments, and kept out of Arab affairs, and just bought their oil, rather than feeling we had to control the flow of oil, I suspect this wouldn't have arisen," he said.
Riiiiiight! Look what happened in Africa!
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 12:18 Comments ||
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#11
combining his criticism of British foreign policy with a robust line on anti-terrorism laws.
Having your cake and eating it?
Another bomb? Tony's fault. More restrictions? I'm all for it. Give the government more power. When it has enough power, I will gladly accept the call to wield that power.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 12:22 Comments ||
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#12
Red Ken thinks British presence in the Middle East was all about the need for oiiiiiiiiiil in the 1920s. He also thinks Bin Laden was "recruited and trained" by Americans.
In other words, Dhimmi Ken is a complete ignoramus or a liar. Could be both.
It's is written than Ford is scum and will forever be haram.
In keeping with my peasack I'm declare friendship for all except nose touchers, for the prophet sed noose touches is Haaram and Quiin the Eskimo is forbooten!
It is written in the big book of Janes, that only one other fleet matters and it gets angry quickly.
#15
Wow, I had no idea I was part of the great conspiracy AvoicefromIRAN. Shall I tell our vassals in the States to Nuke a few sites in Iran to show you that you're right? It's not a problem, I've got the 'special for English only' number for NORAD right here...
How old are you?
If you're less than 30, then I discount what you say as you've been brainwashed by the education system of the Mad Mullahs (TM).
If you're between 30-40 then you'd have been 4-14 when the MMs took over, so you had a chance, but the brainwashing would almost certainly have got you.
If you're 40-50, then you'd have been 14-24 at year zero, so you ought to have known better, but don't.
If you're over 50, then I give up, you were a dope before MullahTime (TM) and you're just proving it now.
Cheers!
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 16:09 Comments ||
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#16
Kalle, the Brits were in Iraq for the oil in the early 20th century (As the US was in Soddiland since the 1930s). During WWI and WWII, Iraq was a key supplier of oil to Brit forces. However, the intervening couple of decades saw the disintigration of the Empire, finished by WWII. Since then, the Brits have had a commercial relationship.
Ken's problem is that he a loony left tinfoil-hat-wearing moonbat.
#17
If Mayor Livingstone of London ever has a biopic made of his rise to power, I have the perfect actor to suggest. He's even English! Only one problem. The actor is dead...
#18
Red Ken is the Mayor of the largest city in the UK. He speaks for Londoners by extension, since it's residents seem to be perfectly happy with him. They elected him after all. Look for the pressure to cut and run, to do the "Neville Chamberlain" thing from the UK media and the âback benchersâ There are also plenty of UK residents who hold to this socialist âpacifistâ meme who are applying political pressure. Sorry to be blunt.
I would whack this fool up side the head if He crossed my path. A total creep and willing to sell out the US throughly. I can't abide him or George George Galloway and I am sure they both represent a significant portion of the UK citizens thought and feelings.
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
07/21/2005 20:24 Comments ||
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#22
Bill O'Reilly was interviewing a British journalist about today's events. The journalist tried to explain that Red Ken is simply a colourful eccentric, but Bill wasn't having any of it when I turned the tv off (like the man's substance, can't abide his style). I think it's time for Londoners to accept that this particular "eccentricity" has been moved beyond the Pale by today's events.
#24
It's possible you good folks have nailed the silver lining in today's attacks: that Red Ken is clearly shown to be a demented asshole, not a colorful throwback.
LANDSTUHL, Germany â Landstuhl Regional Medical Center recently surpassed a hallmark number in its treatment of patients injured in operations Iraqi and Enduring Freedom. A combination of more than 25,000 troops, civilians and coalition members from 37 countries involved in the global war on terrorism has received treatment at Landstuhl.
The medical center, which treated its first patient from OEF in fall 2001, reached the 25,000 patient mark this July Fourth. In Operation Enduring Freedom, Landstuhl now has treated 634 inpatients and 2,159 outpatients. In Operation Iraqi Freedom, the staff has treated 6,524 inpatients and 15,836 outpatients. âAs we fight for our freedom, itâs on the day of our independence that we hit that milestone patient here,â said Col. James M. Francis, Landstuhl commander. âFor the staff here at Landstuhl, that was one more workday as usual.â
As best as hospital officials can determine, their 25,000th patient was a female member of the Army National Guard serving in Iraq. She received treatment on July 4 for an orthopedic problem. âWe were able to return her to duty,â Francis said. âIt just goes to show the mix and the breadth of what all that weâve received from the active, reserve and guard components.â
Since its first global war on terrorism-related patient nearly four years ago, Landstuhl has been responsible for treating patients from such notable events as Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan during March 2002; the November 2004 offensive on Fallujah, Iraq; and the female Marines injured this June in Iraq during a suicide bombing attack on their convoy. The hospital received 152 patients on the day a truck bomb exploded outside the United Nations Headquarters in Baghdad in August 2003.
From brain surgeries to sport injuries, the Landstuhl staff has performed just about every treatment possible. As of July 15, the official tally stood at 25,153 patients treated.
Opened in 1953, Landstuhl is the largest American hospital outside the United States. On average, the 145-bed medical center receives about 30 patients a day. Troops normally stay at Landstuhl between four and seven days. Then, they either return to their units downrange or are flown to the United States for additional treatment.
Prior to the war on terrorism, a day when Landstuhl would receive 30 to 40 patients was considered a mass casualty event. Now, such pace is the norm, and the hospital takes in stride what was once a logistical nightmare. âWe have adapted our way of doing business so that we just absorb those people,â Francis said.
âTheir health care is planned from the moment we receive notification that they are coming. Theyâre triaged to the inpatient or outpatient appropriate location. If it appears that they may need to have surgery, their surgery is already being planned before the plane hits the ground.â
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
the 145-bed medical center
Is that a typo? 1450?
#2
145 beds sounds right. This article is very misleading. Here is the US Army Medical Evacuations in Operation Iraqi Freedom:
Total number of evacuations to Army facilities: 18,729
Wounded in action (WIA): 2,527
Non-battle injuries (NBI): 5,444
Disease: 10,758
See link for further breakdowns.
Posted by: ed ||
07/21/2005 9:50 Comments ||
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#3
From Landstuhl site: LRMC is the largest American hospital outside of the United States, and the only American tertiary hospital in Europe. We provide primary and tertiary care, hospitalization, and treatment for more than 52,000 American military personnel and their families within the centerâs boundaries. The center also provides specialized care for the more than 250,000 additional American military personnel and their families in the European Theater.
There are 162 beds and neonatal bassinets at LRMC, with an expansion capability in excess of 310 beds. There are, on the average, 16 admissions daily, 37,000 outpatient visits monthly, 510 operations monthly, and 3 births daily.
The other big hospitals including Frankfurt closed down, Landsthul is the last one. Once stable, they ship patients back to the states
Posted by: Steve ||
07/21/2005 10:51 Comments ||
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#4
They can airevac them to CONUS quite efficientlty. I was (am) an RN in the Air Force in the 80's and worked in the evac hospital at Travis AFB. It's really a smooth operation getting 25-30 patients at a time from a C 141, to the hospital and to their ultimate destination. Practice makes perfect.
Posted by: Bill ||
07/21/2005 12:52 Comments ||
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#5
Well, looks like you're going to heaven Bill. Put in a good word for me.
MILAN - An Italian prosecutor asked a court on Wednesday to arrest six more alleged CIA agents accused of involvement in the kidnapping of a radical Muslim cleric from a Milan street in 2003.
Italy has already issued arrest warrants for 13 of the 19 US secret service operatives who it says took part in a clandestine operation to kidnap Egyptian national Abu Omar, handing him over to Egyptian authorities for questioning. Assistant prosecutor Armando Spataro asked the appeals court in Milan to arrest the remaining six for their role in planning the kidnapping which has soured relations between Italy and the United States.
Spataro was appealing a decision by magistrate Chaira Nobili last month not to proceed with warrants for the six on the grounds that they had not âmaterially participatedâ in the abduction, but only in its preparation. However, the prosecutor told the court Wednesday that the investigation into the kidnapping had turned up âserious evidence of responsabilityâ of the six, named as Eliana Castaldo, Victor Castellano, John Thomas Gurley, James Robert Kirkland, Anne Lidia Jenkins and Brenda Liliana Ibanez.
All 19 purported CIA agents, several of them long-time residents in Italy, are believed to have been relocated abroad.
They should be brought home and cashiered for being sloppy and stupid.
The cleric -- who was under investigation in Italy as part of an inquiry into international terrorism -- was the imam of a Milan mosque which has been under close surveillance since the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States. He was snatched from the street in October 2003 and flown from a US military base in northern Italy to Egypt, where his supporters say he was tortured.
The case has tarnished relations between Washington and Rome -- a staunch US ally which has a large troop contingent helping the Americans try to restore order in post-Saddam Iraq -- causing Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to angrily summon US ambassador Mel Sembler.
Hassanâs lawyer has said he is being held without charge in an Egyptian prison 100 kilometres (60 miles) north of the capital Cairo.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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ANKARA - Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned on Wednesday that Ankara is running out of patience with a safe haven that armed Turkish Kurd rebels enjoy in neighboring northern Iraq as the militants said they were ready to fight the Turkish army if it enters the region. âWe have a certain degree of tolerance for the moment, but we cannot continue like this much longer,â Erdogan told reporters accompanying him on a trip to Mongolia, the daily Hurriyet reported.
âWe must put the PKK problem behind us,â he said, referring to the Kurdistan Workersâ Party, blacklisted as a terrorist group by the United States and the European Union.
The PKK responded with a threat to turn northern Iraq into a âquagmireâ for the army if it launches cross-border operations to clean up on guerrilla camps there. âWe are prepared for a possible attack. ... We will make it fail and turn (northern Iraq) into a quagmire for the forces that will carry it out,â a statement by the PKKâs military wing said.
'Quagmire'? Guess they got the MoveOn.org talking points.
The PKK, which has stepped up violence in Turkeyâs mainly Kurdish southeast over the past few months, fled to took refuge in the mountains of northern Iraq after a unilateral ceasefire it declared in 1999 in its war with Ankara. The militants began skulking sneaking back into Turkey after they called off the truce in June 2004 on the grounds that Ankaraâs reforms to expand Kurdish freedoms were inadequate.
The PKK statement was published on Wednesday on the Internet site of the Germany-based MHA news agency, which is close to the rebels and regularly publishes their statements.
Erdogan argued that international law gives Turkey the right to make military incursions into northern Iraq in self-defense against the PKK if the Iraqi authorities fail to act. âTurkey can conduct such an operation in line with international rules,â the Milliyet newspaper quoted Erdogan as saying. âNo doubt, Turkey will do this after consulting the Iraqi authorities,â he said. âBut the time may come when it will do it without consulting. Why? Because this is an internationally recognized right.â
Erdogan said he raised Turkeyâs concerns with both US President George W. Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari when he met them in June and May, respectively. He complained that Washington has failed to respond in kind to the support Ankara gave to US-led efforts against terrorism, particularly in Afghanistan, after the September 11 attacks, Milliyet reported.
Did President Bush say anything about your cooperation in the spring of 2003?
âWhile Turkey has been so open (in its support), the United States has yet to take the least action against PKK infiltrations into Turkey, except for intelligence-related efforts,â Erdogan said.
On Tuesday, the Turkish armyâs number two, General Ilker Basbug, said Washington had ordered the arrest of senior PKK commanders in Iraq.
While I'm not too pleased with the Turks, the PKK has to get flattened.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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[obligatory comment that PKK is a terrorist organization that must be dealt with for the good of human kind]
too bad, yippy doggy boy. Had your chance - you blew it, like everything else you are responsible for. Go whine with the French, cause we are still cheesed.
First to apologize for being a day late with this post, I didn't get back to my home computer until too late for eastern time. I've been itching with this article all day! I won't be able to visit the site until late tomorrow either damn
WASHINGTON - From Turkey, from Russia and from the desk of Howard Dean - angry reaction to Rep. Tom Tancredo's threat against Muslim holy sites came from around the world Tuesday. Ain't it grand being PC especially to folks that hate us
In Ankara, Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul blasted Tancredo's comments suggesting the United States could "take out" holy sites, including Mecca, if Islamic terrorists detonated nuclear bombs in U.S. cities. "This was nothing but a fanatic speaking completely personally, irresponsibly and without thought of how far his statements would reach or what kind of problems they would create," Gul said, according to an Anatolia news agency report quoted by The Associated Press. Yeah our Tancredo is the fanatic one.
Despite an international outcry, the Colorado Republican continued to stand by his comments Tuesday, saying he did not intend to offend moderate Muslims during last week's interview with Florida radio talk show host Pat Campbell.
But it did. Threatening to off the Pope would tend to upset me, and I'm a 'moderate' Catholic.
During the WFLA broadcast, Campbell referred to a report that Islamic terrorists hoped to strike several U.S. cities with nuclear weapons and he asked Tancredo how the United States could respond. "Well, what if you said something like - if this happens in the United States, and we determine that it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their holy sites," Tancredo answered.
"You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said. "Yeah," Tancredo responded. HELL YEAH Does anyone remember how the cold war MAD policy "mutually assured destruction" worked to preserve the peace? Or do some have selective memory here
He went on to say that he was "just throwing out some ideas" but that an "ultimate threat" might have to be met with an "ultimate response."
In Moscow, Russian parliament member Konstantin Kosachev denounced the remarks during a news conference. "It's quite obvious that statements like the one just made by the U.S. lawmaker play into the terrorists' hands as they stir international strife and may lead to the emergence of new . . . suicide bombers," Kosachev said, according to the Russian news and information agency, Novosti.
In Washington, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli called Tancredo's remarks "insulting to Islam" and said they do not represent the U.S. government position to "respect the dignity and sanctity of other religions." Yeah like we need to respect the dignity of the law to kill all infidels
The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and the Interfaith Alliance added their own denunciations.
Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, issued a statement calling Tancredo "utterly careless." "Remarks threatening the destruction of holy sites akin to the Vatican or Jerusalem do nothing to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the United States and abroad," Dean said.
Several groups have demanded that Tancredo apologize, but he rejected that call again Tuesday. Thank God He didn't apologize
"One of the things I rail about quite often . . . is this sort of slavish adherence to political correctness that prevents us from talking about the world in which we live in real terms," Tancredo said. Well said
On a day when he had hoped to be spreading the word about his new immigration reform legislation, he hunkered in his Capitol Hill office writing a lengthy talking-points memo explaining his Mecca comments. "Call me a cockeyed optomist, ... not a cross eyed optomitrist
... but I believe something good can happen" as a result of the dialogue, Tancredo said. "As we begin to discuss this issue forthrightly and realize the horrendous consequences of continuing on the confrontational path we are on, perhaps we can use this to begin steps in a different direction." He hopes his remarks spur moderate Muslims to identify and stop radicals before they get involved in terrorism.
Ironically, on the day Turkey's foreign minister was blasting Tancredo in Ankara, ... The terrorists were making hay in Turkey
... his country's U.S. ambassador, Osman Faruk Logoglu, had a prearranged meeting to talk to Tancredo about legislation pending in the International Relations Committee. They touched on the Mecca comments only briefly, Tancredo said. "The guy said, 'You know how these things get spun in the press,' " Tancredo said. "He was being very diplomatic."
The ambassador's office did not return phone messages seeking comment.
By the time the day was over, Tancredo had done numerous radio and cable television interviews. While he defended his comments on Fox News, black and white pictures of atomic blasts were shown on the screen. I just love the media slants. Listening to talk radio on my way home I was listening to an interview with Tancredo and he stood his ground very well.
Tancredo spokesman Will Adams celebrated his birthday Tuesday while fielding dozens of phone calls from reporters as far away at the United Arab Emirates.
Again, his boss was unapologetic. "He signed up," Tancredo said. "He's in for the duration."
Others who have criticized Rep. Tom Tancredo's remarks about Muslim holy sites:
⢠Mohammad Noorzai, coordinator of the Colorado Muslim Council
⢠The Council on American-Islamic Relations
⢠U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli
⢠The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee
⢠The Interfaith Alliance
⢠Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean
Big surprise here I often wonder why we allowed Osama Bin Laden's family to leave the United States, as maybe threats toward his family would have been a deterrent as well. It wouldn't have anything to do with being buddies with Bush now would it
Posted by: Jan ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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If it were proven that the Swiss Guards bombed your city would you feel the right to bomb the Vatican in response? He was talking about sites not people.
Posted by: Jan ||
07/21/2005 0:28 Comments ||
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#2
If the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor I'd feel the need to retaliate against Japan. Oops, that one already happened didn't it?
If Islam continues to attack the west, retaliation against the Islam itself may well be in order. Removing the sources and focal points of Islamic ideology might well be a very productive lesson. While many are quick to point out the potential dangers, few are yet willing to admit that such actions, if they force Muslims to choose sides, will have the effect of more clearly defining the enemy in this conflict and that will be both a welcome and positive development that will greatly shorten the war.
Alternatively think of it this way: Islam reached into the heart of capitalist America and struck down one of capitalist America's enduring symbols; it reached into the heart of American political power and struck at one of the symbols of American political power. But do all capitalists or all Americans now rabidly support unrestricted warfare against Islam? If not why not? Are we not all people and as such should we not all respond the same to similar provocations? If so, is it not the height of bigotry to presume that Muslims will be unable to exercise the same sort of self-control exercised by most non-Muslim Americans following the events of 9/11?
If Tancredo's goal is to open this line of debate then bravo as it's well past time for it to be discussed.
#3
Tabling retaliation scenarios, makes the enemy think. Tancredo did us a favor, even if their is no current political will to fry the central Muslim cess pools.
Posted by: Vlad the Muslim Impaler ||
07/21/2005 3:36 Comments ||
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#4
Yeah. I applaud Tancredo. Enough with the sensitivity to Moslem demands.
If they can't take care of the Islamofascists they are breeding, they need to understand that there is a cost associated with their passivity (or support, as most polls show majorities of Moslems support Bin Laden).
We will not win this war if we keep pretending that there is no problem inherent to Islam, that Moslems must fix. Telling them that their tacit support of Islamofascism may lead to the total destruction of their "holy" towns is legitimate and necessary. It should have been said on 9/12.
#6
SPoD, when did GWB say that? It seems like he's prevaricating a bit there "I think" "ought to be on the table". Whereas if he had said "All options are on the table", then it would have been unequivocal (and of course the MSM would have had the vapours!)
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 6:34 Comments ||
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#7
Tony - GWB was talking about military action against Iran in that statement. He had just been asked about the EU dwarfs negotiatons to limit Iran's nuclear program.
#8
Judaism survived the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem -- twice. In fact, the destruction of the Second Temple accelerated the evolution of the religion from emphasis on sacrifices by the priests to individual prayer and actions, a very good thing, in my opinion. And we still face toward Jerusalem when we pray. Islam could well benefit, as a religion, from that kind of forced evolution, if it is flexible enough to make the change.
#10
Bravo to Rep. Tancredo for refusing to apologize. Now we just need some others to repeat the message so that it sinks in and is not dismissed as a total aberration.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/21/2005 8:22 Comments ||
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#11
Gee, he really hit a nerve with that one didn't he. Everyone was thinking it, he just had the balls to say it on TV. Tancredo for President!!!
#12
So easy to condem what someone else said. Did any of the complainers voice an opinion on how they would do it better? If several nukes went off in US cities, what would YOU do, Howie?
Oh, nver mind...Blame Bush.
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 8:39 Comments ||
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#13
TW wonder if there would have been a return of the tribes if Jerusalem was a crater.... Maybe, maybe not.
Congressman Thomas G Tancredo who proposed bombing Mecca to counter âIslamic terrorism,â has refused to retract his words or to apologise. Facing mounting criticism, Tancredo, while refusing to apologise said, âItâs a tough issue to deal with. Tough things are said. And we should not shy away from saying things that need to be said.â According to some, the Republican member from Colorado is a possible presidential candidate in 2008. A spokeswoman for House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi has called Tancredoâs remarks âirresponsible.â She said, âThey do nothing to advance our national security and protect Americans from terrorists.â
Good man, Tom. Don't let the bastards bully you into it. It needed to be said, and it needs to be policy.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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I respectfully diagree. I thought Tancredo was an ass for saying this.
I've said this before and I won't belabor the point, but nuking Mecca, Median or any of the other 129,598 most holy sites in Islam is a bad, bad idea. I believe that to be true even if some Islamofascist terrorist were to use a WMD against us. All it will do is unite the world against us. Our best friends in the world, the Brits and the Aussies, would no longer stand by us. All the surviving Muslims, 'moderate' or not, would turn against us. The America-haters around the world would have the perfect cover to come at us openly.
It's because I believe this whole idea to be terrible that I support GWB and his approach so strongly. We must, we must beat down Islamofascism, we must kill the terrorists, we must bring personal liberty and democracy to the Islamic world, and we must succeed -- or else those who would nuke Mecca will someday get their chance. And we'll regret it.
The fools, rubes, pollyannas and evil ones on the Left think that if we run away from violence that the Islamofascists will leave us alone. They're fools and we know it. But we can't afford to be foolish on the other end.
If, God forbid, someone uses a WMD on us, we rip doors and walls down wherever we have to in the world to identify all those responsible -- the terrorists, their supporters, and the governments who aided and abetted them. THOSE are the ones we nail. If the Mad Mullahs give Al-Qaeda a nuke and they use it on us, we kill the Mad Mullahs. Anyone standing near them the day we do, tough shit. Don't stand near them.
But we don't nuke a holy site. If we do, we lose the WoT.
My opinion only and not that of any of the other moderators. YMMV.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 0:29 Comments ||
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#2
State Department spokesman Adam Ereli ... replied, âI guess we periodically see, you know, remarks or comments that are insulting to facism Islam. And such remarks, wherever they come from, are insulting and offensive to all of us. Speaking on behalf of the US Government, let me say that we respect facism Islam as a valid political ideology religion, we respect those who have adopted it its holy sites, and we believe we share - the US is a country of political religious diversity that our citizens, whether they be Nazi Muslim or supporters of liberal democracyChristian or socialist Jew or whatever, respect the dignity and sanctity of other political ideologies religions and believe we are part of one human family ....
#3
I've been trying to write a comment for about 30 minutes straight, I've re-started 4 times - and almost everything has been said, more eloquently than I can muster, already. The main thing I offer to Dr Steve is that I see a Law Enforcement approach at the heart of your acceptable response. I believe it to be an obviously flawed position. LE, as practiced in the West, is a cleanup operation. Sure, it'll help some folks sleep better at night, by giving them ass and guilt coverage - "See? My hands are clean! I played by our civilized rules!" But I find that specious. Certainly all those dead folks and their families might correctly ask, "What about about prevention? Why did we have to die? So you folks could sleep well at night?" LE is wonderful in hindsight - after the act, when counting the dead and logging explosives' tagants, building spiffy databases, cross-checking shit with shinola, etc. But it just doesn't even begin to address effective prevention.
I believe, in the end, that Islam, the whole stew of hardcore nuts along with the full bandwidth of do-nothings to active logistical supporters, will drag us, kicking and screaming, to a front-row seat for a modern-day Armageddon. Whose? Well now, that is the question still in play, isn't it?
#4
.com: I don't have a law enforcement approach at my core (what, you think I'm a Democrat? Perish the thought! :-)
I have no problem what-so-ever finding and whacking terrorists. I have no problem whatsoever in removing governments that are terrorist supporters. If law enforcement happens to be the best tool on a given day, great. If the SEALS happen to be the best tool that day, you betcha.
I'm with you completely on prevention. I'm with you completely on protecting innocents.
But I won't go along with mass murder, which is what nuking Mecca would be. If the Mad Mullahs give someone a nuke and they use it on us, nail the Mad Mullahs. No mercy, none. But nuking a holy city in response, with the hundreds of thousands of innocents who would die (and they are innocent) is wrong.
And, I respectfully submit, dumb. I don't want to turn the world against us, I want the world to realize that we have the right (indeed, the ONLY) approach. Kill the terrorists. Remove the thugs. Allow innocent people to live their lives without terror. That's how you fix the problem. Not nuking holy places. Tancredo is wrong.
Parenthetical note: no salmon-colored comments for me on this thread. Any respectful disagreements on opinion that I might have with Fred or the other mods go into the comments.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 1:36 Comments ||
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#5
Steve - here is a MAJOR correction to your mis-statement.
Tancredo said we should CONSIDER BOMBING mecca. Nothing about nukes.
We shouldn't jump out on a limb here like people over at DU or Kos - stick to the words said, not to what you want to put in between the words, or that the press has put there.
Bombing Mecca (or Medina, etc) is something that we may have to consider if that is where the Wahabbis who started all this are holed up - going after the cause, not just the symptoms. If they were to employ a WMD with large loss of life and damage to the USA, we must ensure that they have no sanctuary, no peace, no shelter. And we need to do that now, as a deterrent. I called the congressman's office and thats what I got - although I suspect it may be somewhat "revised and extended" version. And that is what Tancredo was talking about, albeit in blunt terms that could be misconstrued as you and others have done. Like Bush, Tancredo tends not to be nuanced in his speech.
And if thats the case, I agree: No safe place for any terrorist that comits mass murder in the US, especially if its by way of a WMD.
From an old Gospel Hymn:
At the end they'll try to find a hiding place
When it comes their time to die
No hiding place in the mountains
No hiding place in the waters
No hiding place Down here
No hiding place
And they went to the rock to hide their face
But the rock cried out
No hiding place!
There's no hiding place Down here
Figure this: hundreds of thousands dead or poisoned, a major city significantly in ruins. Whats happens next, especially if we get good evidence of the sources of the attack? We go after the bastards, No Matter Where They Are. Hoist the crimson flag and sound Deguello - we are coming for you with no mercy.
Rev 6:16-17 "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Wrath is the right word for what will happen as a result of a WMD strike on the US. And I believe in letting them know up front, the terrs and their supporters and sympathizers in the Islamist and Islamic world: if its you who instigated, supported or encouraged this, the wrath will fall on you - wherever you happen to be, be it your mosque in Detroit, madrassa in Pakistan, government office in Teheran, or gathering in Mecca.
The message does need to be blunt.
As direct as a surgeons incision to remove a cancerous tumor, we will cut you out and destroy you and the roots of your growth.
You. Will. Die. We will obliterate you. Cold. Calculating. Complete. We owe it to our nation and our dead.
#6
OldSpook: thank you for the correction. It does make a difference. And a big thank you for calling Tancredo. I'm impressed you got a response.
I think we're in agreement that there can never be a sanctuary for anyone who attacks us, be it WMD or ramming a jetliner into an office tower. If the bad boyz decide to use the Grand Mosque in Mecca as an ammo dump, it's now a legitimate military target. Flatten it. Wrath is the correct word.
It's because we in the West value innocents that I'd never use a nuke on a holy site. It's because we in the West understand the difference between good and evil that I would employ the wrath of the righteous against evil, and spare the good.
I think (I hope) that we're in fair agreement on the big issue. We must destroy the vicious evil that threatens us, but we can't do it at the expense of our own souls.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 1:49 Comments ||
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#7
Nuke a holy site? Threre distinct disadvantages. Now, capital cities on the other hand are another thing entirely. We're brought back to the same argument. You don't murder animals, you kill them. And when they see that we are willing to it dispassionately and continuously, the smart ones will bring and end to it. It's the only thing that ended WWII and until the so called "moderate moose-limbs®" get serious about their so called religion - it's the only thing that will work in the WOT.
But if we want to go the softly-softly approach then fine - drop a tacitical nuke in some emtpy desert - then tell 'em the next one will be the mother of all Char-B-Q's.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/21/2005 1:55 Comments ||
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#8
Dr Steve - OS makes a point that was lost in the original thread, here.
Hmmm. In your post I see no preventative stuff, just response stuff. That's LE's gig.
Me, well, I don't have to be nice, heh. I want hardcore profiling, heavy moskkk surveillance, deportation of every imam who preaches anything less than ANTI-jihad - along with their followers, firings for all Justice & DOD translators who fail vetting, hiring of translators whose loyalty is to America - such as the various Jewish ethnic groups who were blacklisted, serious impenetrable border walls built, biometric passports and drivers licenses, manpower and money put into protecting our ports to scan and track cargo - in conjunction with current efforts in foreign ports, surreptitious blockades of asshat countries such as NorKieLand, a full break with the House of Saud for their demonstrable duplicity and full planning for the Republic of Eastern Arabia, a break with Pervy and relaxed ROE since he can't deliver dick, serious preparations and efforts to align and ally ourselves with Persian opposition forces - arming them and aiding in every way possible, and a slew of other "draconian" preventative steps. But that's just me, heh.
#9
Damn, .com, - I thought that was the plan 9/12, or at least is should have been.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/21/2005 2:08 Comments ||
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#10
Thanks guys great stuff.
To make consequences for a WMD attack very clear, is a good thing *if* we are prepared to follow through after the attack. Nothing wrong with a clear message of Magnum doom, it might even persuade a mad mullah or two?
SW Grand Mosque in Mecca as an ammo dump
>w00p there it is!
OSWrath
very sp00ky!
Posted by: Red Bone ||
07/21/2005 2:23 Comments ||
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#11
RM - Heh - should've been is right. Sadly, we have been hamstrung by PCism and a solid 20-30% of our population swilling Tranzi MultiCulti Moonbat Kool Aid - and many of these airheads have wormed their way into our institutions and skewed them toward self-hate / self-defeatism.
I mention this because I was listening to some TV news bit about the pedo sexual predators this afternoon and a thought struck me: those that teach our children this Kool Aid shit are pedo's too - intellectual predators. They're dangerous not just to innocent individuals, but to our entire society and way of life. They are infinitely more dangerous.
I look back at 2000 and 2004 and marvel at how close-run things have been - and how tentative a fair chunk of us are - even about our own survival. Utterly amazing to me.
#12
If Tancredo means no target should be off limits then I agree with him. If he means bombing religious targets then I disagree. Not becuase of the reaction of the Muslim street, I'd probably find that quite satisfying, but because it's symbolism and is just more of the 'hearts and minds' shit except from the stick perspective. The cold war equivalent would be bombing Lenin's tomb.
I'm probably closer to .com's position. If they want to go back the eight century, I think we should oblige them and destroy all modern infrastructure starting with electricity and telecoms. I'm sure they would use the wonders of Islam science to quickly figure out how to replace them.
#13
To those who object to nuking Mecca I have one question: why do you think the Islamofascists attacked the WTC?
And to those who are worried that there might be innocents in Mecca, I have another question: were there innocents in Hiroshima?
As for those who think the UK and Australia would not support the US, what would you as Americans do if London and Sydney were razed to the ground, with millions of deaths?
My own answers are that Mecca is as much a symbol as the WTC was; the guilt for the victims of Hiroshima lies with Bushido Japan; and I certainly without hesitation support nuking Mecca and various capitals of the Middle East if London or Sydney suffered a terrorist WMD attack.
Ultimately, you have to decide whose lives and symbols are more valuable to you: yours, your loved ones, and the people of our free lands --or the Moslems who want you to submit to their death cult.
Tancredo is the most responsible American politician to speak in the last several years.
#14
Absolutely no site, place or city, should be off the table if muslims use WMD in our or any of our allies countries. We are not the bad guys here for being frank and honest. We need to do what ever is necessary to get the message across. We want to be your friends, but if you keep treating us as foes and supporting attacks against us and our allies that is what we will be, your mortal foes with all that entails.
I think many need to all revisit Dave D's list of options. I post it her in full with full credit to him.
"Well, I don't know about nuking 'em all, but that is one of the options.
Problem is, when you look at the entire range of possible responses to future terrorist attacks and enumerate our options, the resulting list is pretty short:
1. SURRENDER- One quick way to solve the Islamic terrorism problem would be to simply surrender to them: become Muslim, or dhimmis.
2. APPEASEMENT- Maybe they can be bought off, perhaps with lavish foreign aid; or maybe we could withdraw our support from Israel and give the Muslims free rein to indulge their passion for slaughtering Jews.
3. CRIMINAL PROSECUTION- We could round up terrorists one by one or in small groups and "bring them to justice"-- but only after they've done their damage, and only if we can find them, capture them, and gather enough evidence against them to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. And then come the appeals, and the ACLU...
4. LIBERATION & DEMOCRATIZATION- What we're doing now in Iraq and Afghanistan: seeing if Arab/Islamic society can be detoxified by introducing democratic self-governance. Maybe it can; maybe it can't. The jury's still out, at least for the duration of Bush's presidency. But it won't be out much longer than that.
5. CONQUEST & SUBJUGATION- The "Ann Coulter Option": invade their countries, execute their political and religious leaders, dynamite their mosques and madrassas, and rule them with an iron fist.
6. EXPULSION & QUARANTINE- Expel all Muslims from the U.S., make the practice of Islam within our borders a criminal offense, and refuse visas-- even for the briefest of visits-- to all Muslims and all citizens from Islamic countries.
7. COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT- We could respond to terrorist attacks on our cities by attacking Arab/Muslim cities in kind, a la Dresden. Or Hiroshima, for that matter. Tit for tat.
8. EXTERMINATION- No more Muslims = no more Islamic terrorism. One and a quarter billion people would have to be incinerated in a nuclear holocaust, but what the heck- can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, right?
And that's it.
Most of these options are bad-- VERY bad-- for either us, or them, or both. There's only one-- #4, what we're doing right now-- that creates any kind of "win-win situation"; and it doesn't appear to be going spectacularly well.
It's also the most laborious of all the options, and if future American presidents will take just one lesson from George Bush's travails, it is this: the American people do not have the stomach for any more "long, hard slogs". The anti-war camp is powerful and relentless; the Democratic Party will remain loyal only up until the next campaign season; the press will do everything possible to undermine and discredit everything our troops do; and the U.N. as well as most of our "allies" will work steadfastly against us, not for us.
Given all that, I suppose I wouldn't blame some future President for responding to another mass-casualty terrorist attack by choosing Door #7 or Door #8. What else could he do, really?
(Sorry for the bandwidth-busting comment, Fred; but this has been gnawing at me for quite a while)"
Posted by: Dave D.|| 2005-05-17 02:57|| Comments|| Top
#15
I am not sure it was about nuking Mecca, rather about it's obliteration. I agree with Kalle.
Those that say it would enrage mooselimbs do not consider that hajj is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. The second one is to pray 5 times a day in its direction. Take out two pillars and the ROP may not have enough legs to stand on.
Of course, from a mooselimb's POV, obliteration of Mecca is impossible, Allan would prevent it. IOW, if that would happen, it may be interpreted that the whole "Submission" edifice is a scam, by a majority. The hardcore fanatics would find some explanation, and would have to be put down like rabid animals they are, but that would be the case at some point, no matter what.
The third day after 9/11, I thought WWTD (T=twobyfour). Projecting all possible scenarios (and the current state of the world seems like a deja vu), obliteration of Mecca and Medina seemed to me as the best course of action.
It still does. One of these days in the future, it will happen. Islam delenda est. No other choice if we want our grand-grand children to live in decent environment. But because we do not have the fortitude and the foresight to see the obvious, a lot of blood and resources will have to be expended to make sure of it.
#16
If we are on the subject of stuff that really burns us. What burns me is they are free-riding on Western developments over the last 400 years and especially more recently American developments. If they want to be proud Muslims let them be proud of the telecoms, computers, drugs, precision engineering, etc, etc, they develop on their own, rather than free-riding on the achievements of other societies.
...
Then a silence came to the river,
A hush fell over the shore,
And Bohs that were brave departed,
And Sniders squibbed no more;
For the Burmans said
That a white man's head
Must be paid for with heads five-score.
#19
Vansdals don't invent things, they either cart them away and use them to their own ends or destroy them so no one else can benifit from them. That is how I see radical islam, as technological vandals.
"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handle."
#20
Steve
Who cares? I am not a goody two shoes. Some want the US to be one. Not me. Actions and non-actions should have costs too high for even morons to consider.
#21
Here's my take, for whatever it's worth. I think it boils down to three questions:
1. Should our policy be that, even in the event of another mass-casualty terrorist attack on U.S. soil-- that is, another 9/11-- we will consider Islam's holy sites strictly off-limits to any military response?
Absolutely not. We should consider Mecca, Medina, and Qom no differently from Jeddah, Riyadh, or Tehran. If these places were involved in any way in the attacks, they face military action just like any other place.
2. Should our policy be that, in the event of another mass-casualty terrorist attack on U.S. soil, we will retaliate by bombing Islam's holy sites?
No. There's no value in doing so, unless those places make sense as military targets for practical reasons. "Nuking Mecca" might give us some brief emotional satisfaction, but that's all.
3. Should Tom Tancredo apologize for his remarks?
Absolutely NOT.
Frankly, I think we've erred grievously by going WAY too far in shielding Muslims from the full extent of our anger and exasperation with the so-called "Religion of Peace". It's high time we start speaking in blunt, no-nonsense terms, because Muslims have some serious work to do.
If it is to survive beyond the next few decades, Islam needs to make a fundamental, profound transition, one in which "submission to the will of God" no longer means, IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, "submission to the will of man". One in which an individual's faith becomes a private matter between him and his God-- not a public, political matter between him and society.
If it can make this transition, quickly and completely, it will survive. If it does not, it will perish because its institutionalized bigotry, xenophobia, hatred of The Other, and determination to establish itself as The One True Faith by any means available, including violence, have put in on a high-speed, head-on collision course with all of Western civilization.
My view is that Islam will not undertake this reformation until it is motivated to do so. And it will not be motivated until it is staring at close range down the barrel of a LARGE loaded gun, cocked and with the safety off.
All Tom Tancredo did was move a hand in the direction of the holster.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
07/21/2005 7:15 Comments ||
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#22
Really insightful comments here, I'll try and contribute something as worthy.
Tancredo *had* to say it - *someone* had to say it, at least to put people on notice that it's a possibility.
LE is no-hoper, with the weapons being mooted, 'cleaning up after the event' is non-option. A while back, it was estimated that a single Nuclear attack on a British city would totally overwhelm the entire capacity of the NHS to do anything about it - 'cleaning up' would involve bulldozers and mass grave pits.
Is there anyone here that thinks there are other options available than SPoD's #14 list? If not, then if you also take into account the (depressing) conclusion of SPoD; that the American people are not inclined for 'long hard slogs' any more, you are in theory left with #7 Collective Punishment and #8 Extermination.
I think there is another option, a combination of those options SPoD has enumerated. If a WMD attack does take place, the pressure for a visceral lash-out will be enormous, perhaps Tehran will be vapourised - after the US has given the populace 24 hours to get out (that will avoid killing 'innocents' - except in this War there are no innocents, everyone is involved).
Once the boil has been lanced, the real work takes place; mass deportations, the seizure of as much Arab treasure as necessary - this implies that a lot of 'relationships' with the Saudis are going up in smoke - they're about to become very poor, considering their money in Swiss bank accounts etc will be forfeit, the seizure of the Saudi oil fields and any other infrastructure the US sees fit. This may well extend to other countries as well - presumably Iran will also have its oil fields seized. The oil fields and refineries will be guarded, and there will be a standard 'Grave of a Hundred Dead' escalation doctrine in place for people who mess with the oil production.
It's a kind of #5 Conquest and Subjugation, except that you can expect the populace to kill off their leaders for you. Let them worship who they like, but without the money supply that the oil brings to the Arab world they are going to have to find other ways of bringing the cash in. And as we're also going to enforce #6 Expulsion and Quarantine, they are going to have to be very clever about what they do.
It's now a moot point as to whether this should have happened after 9/11 (my opinion is that it, or something very close to it should have).
Basically, if these people want to live in the 7th Century - fine. Just don't get us involved in it too.
The Muslim world needs a Reformation and one might also add, a Renaissance as well (and throw in The Enlightenment for good measure). It took Europe some 300 years to do that, and that was with a lot of people wanting it to happen. The Muslim world, by the unhappy circumstance of being a 7th Century culture finding itself in the 21st Century with its accelerating rates of change, does not have 300 years - or rather, the rest of the World cannot afford those 300 years for the Muslim world to put it's house in order. Not with the weapons that are now available - it's simply too dangerous.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 7:25 Comments ||
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#23
Nuking Mecca would only remove the Haj piller of Islam. Praying in that direction will always be possible. If the city is merely destroyed, with no residual contamination (whether radiation, biological or chemical), the Haj would still be possible, albeit difficult and very uncomfortable. But the lesson, that Allah cannot or will not protect his own, would be very, very clear.
Tony UK, you're quite right, and in addition to the weapons available now, you can add demography.
Muslim countries are more or less experiencing a transition, but it is slower than in others part of the world, due to political and religious reasons, and the muslim world's share of humanity is going to hugely increase in the coming decades, and for a long time.
Do we really want a large and increasing part of humanity to be non-productive, bellicose, intolerant (wimmen, non-believers) and expansionnist? And all this while "enlightened" West (including Asia)'s demography will be going down.
Traditionnal islam (ie the sufi version of Turkey, North Africa) was already bad, despite the "hipness" of sufism, but the re-arabized, salafist islam that has been sweeping muslimland for the last decades is even worse, not to mention revolutionnary islam à la Qtub or UBL.
This will pose many, many serious problems in the future.
#27
The first thing about solving a problem is determining ad stating what the problem is.
One "silver lining" in the Tancredo affair is that it has finally forced peopel to come to grips with the problem: Wahabbists and Salafists pushing a militant, expansionist, rigid, fascist and hostile version of Islam all over the world.
I pray for the day that the MSM will wake up and realize (and publicize) the real threat behind the terror.
#28
I'm slow this morning, but Old Spook answered a question I was truly wondering, especially in light of the MSM bias here. What did Tancredo REALLY say? Did he use the term "nukes" or just "bomb"? If "bomb", then I have no problem with it (especially with precision guided weapons). Take out the rock, you take out a once-a-year gathering where jihadi "networking" occurs. If "nuke", then I'm not there yet, but I'm getting really close. If a WMD is used here in the States (or any of our allies), I'm all for opening a BIG can of whoop @rse! This leads me to another observation (a little off topic)...we need a NEW NATO-like alliance now. All western democracies need to ban together and clearly state (like NATO) an attack on 1 of us is an attack on ALL of us, and will be reciprocated in kind.
Posted by: BA ||
07/21/2005 9:08 Comments ||
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#29
Wahabbists and Salafists pushing a militant, expansionist, rigid, fascist and hostile version of Islam all over the world.
The $64 question is whether or not this expansionist, rigid, fascist, hostile sort of Islam is really significantly different than the traditional variety in its ability to avoid megalomania inspired by its belief in its own divine providence.
My money's on a big fat, "No!" The Qur'an and Ahadith both progress from peaceful tolerance to the bellicose and belligerent sort of behavior we see from the Wahabbi/Salafist arms of Islam today. I'm certain it's sheer coincidence that Mohammed preached peace and tolerance early on when he was weak and had few followers and progressed to violence and expansion by the sword later as his armies gained strength. Well, that and 1400 years of history shows us the whenever Islam is able it spreads itself via the sword and whenever Islam contracts that too occurs via the sword.
Given the prima facie case Islamic writings and history lay out against it Iâm not certain thereâs any basis to believe that Wahabbis and Salafists are anything other than normal traditional Muslims. If that's the case we're in for a mighty long wait ahead of the Islamic Rennaissance.
#30
BA, that was the purpose of NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all. The US called that debt in after 9/11, and IMHO, to the eternal shame of those nations who did say so, there were some that said "well, it's not *really* a full-blown war is it now?"
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 9:34 Comments ||
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#31
"But we don't nuke a holy site."
I'll take that to also mean "we don't bomb a holy site" (since the difference is mainly how much of an annihalation, not just the fact of the annihalation itself).
One problem: Damn near every place the moslems have ever been is littered with "holy sites." Iraq is full of them (which, by the way, the jihadis don't have any problem bombing).
I agree that except in extreme circumstances we shouldn't nuke anything. But with our firepower capacity, we don't have to to make our point.
We can't pre-emptively take their "holy" sites off the table, since you can rest assured they haven't taken ours off. (Anyone want to bet what will happen if they set off a fairly powerful bomb in the Vatican? There'll be some mightedly piss-off people worldwide, and most of them won't be interested in restraint.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/21/2005 9:54 Comments ||
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#32
Nuking Mecca would only remove the Haj piller of Islam.
Yep, how about the occupation/colinization and US commercialization of the haj? Big ass Sonny's BBQ in 10 strategic locations.
Let's just overrun the place, physically, intellucatally and commercially.
#34
Ooooh. Take over Mecca. Leave it as it is, with security managed by the locals --BUT make Moslems pay in gold to go there, the locals turn all money over to us, and we use the proceeds to fund the War.
That would turn their holy destination into a source of income to wage war against Islamofascism. Any "moderate" Moslem could go to Mecca and thereby express their opposition to Islamofascism.
Wonderful. We don't have to nuke Mecca -- we can turn it into an Islamic Disneyland and use the profits for our weaponry.
#35
Tony-UK : Tancredo *had* to say it - *someone* had to say it, at least to put people on notice that it's a possibility.
I think that says it succinctly...
Tancredo is a pretty good sort... A non-BS guy.
I think Hugh Hewitt's overraction to his remarks, and shocked at the support and refusal to retract is indicative of the mindset "statist right".
The Prez's father is a perfect example of this "statist right" mindset. However the current Prez, though a product of this (e.g. minutemen=vigilantes) still has an independent streak in him (Iraq invasion).
Anything should be considered possible, especially considering the deafening silence from the Muslim community as a whole...
Tancredo just voiced what everyone was wondering about in the multitude of "what ifs" floating around...
#36
IMHO - Its as simple as the fire triangle - Fuel, O2 and Heat. In this case, I made up something called the Terrorism Triangle. All 3 elements of my Terrorism Triangle draw significantly from Saudi Arabia.
Fuel = those willing to fight or blow themselves up Heat = wahhabism O2 = $ from Saudi Arabia
It takes allot of time to gather the "Fuel and Heat" in my terrorism triangle but O2 is instant. Its also the easiest out of the 3 to track, trace and seize.
I truly believe if $ from SA were to dry up Syria, Hezbolla, Hamas, PLO offshoots, and even a good portion of Iran would dry up or at least be severely crippled. They would be forced to spend the majority of their time scratching up funds inturn making them more traceable and easier to find.
Please critic this from me - its something I've been thinking about for a while.
Thanx
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
07/21/2005 12:05 Comments ||
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#37
I like Yosemite Sam's analogy. Follow the money. Dry up the resource base. Saudi money finances Iraq troubles now, Chechnya, Indonesia, Thailand troubles, etc etc. Cut the money (resource) trail and the rest withers on the vine. Maybe Bush realizes this now, but needs to work slowly w/r/t Saudi. I do not know all the details that he does, for sure. It seems that the only reason that we are playing footsies with the Saudis is because of the difficulty of living without their oil.
It seems in the final analysis that the big nut to crack is how to deal with the Saudis.
I guess that we have to thank Tancredo for helping in getting the country off bottom dead center by putting unmentionables on the table to stimulate thought.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
07/21/2005 12:35 Comments ||
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#38
(Reuters) - General Hernado Cortez, who proposed laying waste to Tenochtitlan to counter pagan âmass human sacrifice,â has refused to retract his words or to apologize. Facing mounting criticism, Cortez, while refusing to apologize said, âItâs a tough issue to deal with. The Aztecs have sacrificed more Mayan teenagers to the Smoking Mirror than Iâve had hot lunches. And we Spanish should not shy away from saying things that need to be said.â According to some, the explorer from Medellin is a possible candidate for Marques in 1534.
A spokespriest for his holiness the Aztec Emperor Montezuma II has called Cortezâs remarks âirresponsible.â He said, âThis does nothing to advance Spanish national security, promote understanding and religious tolerance, or protect Mayans from having their hearts removed from their chests.â
Say, anybody heard from that Aztec spokespreist lately?
#39
I've disagreed with the Tancredo comment in the past couple of days, but there are some very compelling arguments here that are turning me. OS's specificity of his comments helped.
Our response is difficult to forecast at this point. We just don't know how we would react or with what force. Even at the end of the war the fire bombing campaigns, which really ended the war, were regarded as a questionable strategy by some in the military. They were very concerned about the public reaction to the killing of tens of thousands of civilians per day. In the ned the public had no problem with it. The Japanese had no choice but to surrender.
I just don't see how things are going to get better any time soon. The muzzies are going to continue to "fulfill their destiny" and that is directly counter to the continued existence of western civilization. When enough westerners are killed, the response will be overwhelming. It may not be nuclear, but it will be massive. And if Tancredo's comments force all parties to look at the real potential end game square in the face and deal with it now, then that is a good thing.
#40
Yosemite, that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. A few comments though;
Fuel = those willing to fight or blow themselves up
This is a problem, trying to stem this tide is going to be very difficult - all those madrassas are churning them out by the truckload. But they need $$$ to do their work.
Heat = wahhabism
This is the catalyst, but that's all it is - if it wasn't Wahhabism it would be some other version of radical Islam causing problems.
O2 = $ from Saudi Arabia
This is the one to go for - the Saudis have got ludicrous, unearned wealth, and have a corrupt regime. To turn the attention of the Wahhabists (whom they created!) away from this corruption they turn them loose on other countries.
As .com has said several times, follow the money. Kill that, and although the whole edifice might not come tumbling down, we would be dealing with a much more manageable situation.
My comment #22 has more details, but is there anyone here who thinks that if the West were managing the oil fields of the Middle East the wealth generated would be spent worse than it is now?
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 13:49 Comments ||
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#41
Yep, dang fine analogy. Go for the Oxygen. But keeping in mind the theory of oil fire fighting. You can remove the heat and the fuel with enough dynamite.
#43
I appreciate all the comments, and I especially appreciate OldSpook's correction and clarification.
Here's the bottom line of my concern, and I've been thinking about this all day whilst working the lab. In the end, what Tancredo proposes is, in the words of WH Auden --
"Those to whom evil is done / Do evil in return."
I don't believe in that.
I believe in justice. I believe in prevention. I believe in removing evil, and removing the life from evil people. I believe that delivering justice and removing evil sometimes requires us to do hard things, and just as it's sometimes difficult to watch sausage-making, it's sometimes difficult to do and view these hard things.
I won't blink.
But I won't visit evil on innocent people because their co-religionists visited evil on me and mine.
To do so in the end makes me a "root cause" type of person. The terrorists do bad things to us because bad things were done to them, and so it's okay to do bad things back. It's a seductive way to think, but it takes you all the way back to Cain and Abel. Occasionally good can come out of evil, but it's more often that evil just begets more evil.
And just as important, evil frequently arises of its own account. Osama bin Laden may rail against all the things weâve done, but a world that beget rights for women, an end to slavery, the internet, baseball and short skirts is not to blame for what he's done. He is. He's seen the good of the world and has reacted to it in an evil way. To label that reaction as a 'root cause' is to miss that Osama and like-minded terrorists hate us because of what is good about us, not because of the wrongs we might or might not have committed.
And that leads me to why I'm deeply troubled by Tancredo's comments, and the comments of people who think that it's acceptable to nuke/bomb/level a holy city. In the end, one of the main measures that makes us good and not evil is how we respond to injustice. How do we respond to evil? Hitler gassed the Jews, but we did not gas Nazis. Stalin murdered the kulaks, but we did not murder communists. We fought and brought about an end to both of those evil systems. That was good.
Today bin Laden murders innocents in office towers and subways. We cannot in return murder innocents going about their daily business in Mecca, in Qom or Najaf, and remain good. We remain good by removing bin Laden, removing the terrorists and the dictatorial thugs who support the terrorists, and by draining the swamp.
.com might accuse me of being reactive. Well yes: the first response, dusting ourselves off from the trauma of 9/11 and comforting our wounded and grieving, was and must be reactive. After that itâs all pro-active: render the terrorists dead, jugged or scattered. Render justice. But remember what makes us good. Murdering innocents is not good.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 15:29 Comments ||
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#44
Got to reattribute that list again since at least one of you didn't pick up the "Quotes" around it all. That post was made by Dave D. back at 2005-05-17.
#45
"How do we respond to evil? Hitler gassed the Jews, but we did not gas Nazis... We fought and brought about an end to both of those evil systems. That was good."
Do you think Allied bombs spared the innocents in Nazi Germany? Have you seen photos of Dresden after the fire bombing or Berlin in 1945? Did we leave Nazi monuments standing? You do agree that the Nazis had to be wiped out, don't you?
Until "moderate Muslims" purge murdering the infidel and deceiving the infidel from their Friday services and their holy book, I'm all for keeping all retaliatory options open and possible.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/21/2005 15:44 Comments ||
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#46
Steve what assurance do you have that those coreligionists are "good"? Just what do the Imams in those "holy sites" preach?
Are they preaching love thy neighbor? Turn the other cheek? That is not what I am hearing. I hear they want to convert or kill us all. I hear and read that they want to have their religion's rules be the law by which we are all judged. I hear that they want their islamic "justice" to be the the only justice. All the coreligionists are good with that it appears since they belong and participate in that religion and that religious system.
I refuse to sit by and watch them further those ends in silence and without total resistance. Therefore I am good with Tancredo's statements and position.
#47
SW you may want to study WW II. In particular what happened to the people of Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Tokyo, etc.
And you should avoid trying to blame the West for our acts of self-defense. The people who die when we are defending ourselves are entirely the responsibility of those who initiated force against us. In the current case, Bin Laden and his supporting cast of Moslem leaders are guilty for every single death in the War.
We don't desire that innocents be killed. That choice has already been made by Islamofascists all over the world.
#48
Wrt the fuel/heat/O2: Don't forget that a lot of the $$ can come from Muhammadans in rich countries like UK or USA.
And I think trailing wife is correct that Muhammadanism is quite flexible enough to adapt to the loss of a little black stone--I've said so before. Unfortunately, the adaptation is likely to make them more intransigent.
Is it possible to define Muhammadanism as a political party rather than a religion?
If your loyalty is to a universal caliph which rules all the earth, are you a loyal citizen of any other country? (Yes, some countries allow dual citizenship...)
Posted by: James ||
07/21/2005 16:11 Comments ||
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#49
Murdering innocents is not good, but sometimes there is no other way to get to the terrorists and their leaders. Collatoral damage does occur. Innocents are killed. It is the way of war. The deaths of our innocents will harden us to the deaths of their innocents. We will kill their combatants and, as a byproduct, intentional or otherwise, their innocents until one side is victorious. It is this way in all wars that are fought for total victory. I believe it will be that way in this one.
#50
I agree with remoteman. I'd rather not target innocents; that's what the terrorists do. But, if we're targetting the guilty, and they are hiding behind the innocent, c'est la guerre.
There were a lot of innocent people in Dresden. There were also factories making Panzerfausts and a major rail yard to redeploy the Wehrmarcht divisions fighting the Red Army.
There are many innocent children in Arabia and Egypt. There are also many, many mosques and madrassas preaching hatred and murder, weapons suppliers, and oil ticks funding them.
#51
I'm well aware of Dresden, Hiroshima, etc., in WWII. I'm also well aware that no system is perfect. And I'm aware of collateral damage (and one of the things that makes us as good as we are is how we try to minimze that).
What evidence do I have that all the co-religionists are good? I have none, and I have no evidence that all of them are bad, either. As in most (not all) situations, there's some of both. This gets us to the Sodom/Gemorrah argument -- must I find 10 good people in Mecca to spare it?
If the WoT turns out to be as WWII, a total war against a murderous ideology that has been endorsed by most of the other side, then Dresden and Hiroshima are going to happen again -- Mecca and Qom will eventually go up in flames. There weren't a hell of a lot of good Germans or good Japanese around in 1941.
And so we're back to the debate we've had for a while: is there a difference between Islam and Islamofascism? I think there is, but there some here who would say no. If there's no difference, then Tancredo, et al., aren't too far off the mark.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 17:57 Comments ||
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#52
It all comes down to whether they have the will to edit that "holy" book, doesn't it? "Islam" means "submission" and we are not going to submit or be destroyed.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/21/2005 19:16 Comments ||
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#53
What evidence do I have that all the co-religionists are good? I have none, and I have no evidence that all of them are bad, either. As in most (not all) situations, there's some of both.
Well then you don't have no evidence do you, you just have evidence insufficient for you to be comfortable reaching a conclusion. Fourteen centuries of Muslim warfare against their neighbors and bloody expansion by the sword coupled with: Islam's current bloody borders, the long procession of international terrorist incidents carried out almost exclusively by Muslims, and the failure of the allegedly greater Muslim community to root out and destroy the terrorists in its midst are quite enough evidence for me. At least they're enough that I'm comfortable with the presumption that Islam supports violent action against non-Muslims until this alleged silent majority of Muslims takes strong and decisive action to demonstrate that this is not the case.
While the U.S. Army continues to have problems recruiting enough troops, some interesting patterns are emerging from the situation. First, there is not a shortage of volunteers overall. The problem is that the navy, marines and air force have a surplus of applicants. Itâs only the army that is having problems, and then mainly with filling combat support jobs (which make up some 85 percent of the positions). The army recruiters are often unable to sign up those applicants who werenât able to get into the navy, air force or marines.
The army is also noticing regional patterns. Recruiting is holding steady in the Midwest, and is up in the South. In other words, the recruiting tends to follow political patterns. The Blue (Democratic) states are sending fewer volunteers, and the Red (Republican) states more. But the Blue/Red state may have more to do with job prospects than political beliefs. Areas where the unemployment rate is the lowest tend to be the toughest for recruiters.
Thereâs also the reality factor. Troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan are more likely to reenlist. Some of this is due to higher re-enlistment bonuses, but those re-enlisting (and 35 percent of them do it in a combat zone) often say they believe strongly in what they are doing, and thatâs why they volunteer to keep doing it. By the end of the year, the army expects to get 4,000 more re-enlistments than it expected. A disproportionate number of these are coming from combat troops, which is very helpful. Combat experience is invaluable, and perishable. Keeping such experienced troops in combat units makes those outfits more effective, and lowers the friendly casualty rates.
Posted by: ed ||
07/21/2005 10:44 ||
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#1
Of course the liberal areas send less people. They have been in the military hating game for years...
#2
That's right, New York has 911 and the Midwest and South send the response.
Posted by: Captain America ||
07/21/2005 16:14 Comments ||
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#3
Captain America hit the nail on the head. I think the old confederate states supply 40% of the US military requirements while we make up 25% of the population.
Washington, DC -- The military Friday began holding review tribunals for suspected al-Qaida and Taliban fighters held at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, giving the detainees their first formal chance to explain why the United States should not consider them "enemy combatants."
All of the nearly 600 prisoners, many of whom have been held at the base for more than two years, will have the opportunity to appear before these tribunals, Navy Secretary Gordon England told reporters at the Pentagon. "We'll start today. There will be at least one today," he said, adding that he hoped there would eventually be three tribunals holding up to 24 hearings a week and that the whole process would be complete within 120 days.
Each hearing, England stressed, would be a "fact-based administrative proceeding ... not a trial." It would determine whether the person detained had been correctly designated an enemy combatant or a simple missionary doing humanitarian relief work distributing Kalashnikovs in Afghanistan not.
The controversial decision to hold the detainees as enemy combatants, rather than regular prisoners of war, has left them in what critics say is a legal black hole, without any means -- until now -- to challenge their detention. The tribunals will "review information surrounding the capture of the detainee ... and any other pertinent information related to the designation as an enemy combatant," according to a statement from the Pentagon, which carefully avoids using the word "evidence."
After the hearing, the tribunal -- of three officers -- will deliberate, and make a recommendation. The recommendation and the record of the hearing would be reviewed by a military lawyer, Cmdr. Beci Brenton, a U.S. Navy spokeswoman told United Press International, to ensure that they were "legally sufficient." The lawyer's recommendation and that of the tribunal would be passed to Adm. James McGarrar, who will either approve the tribunal's decision or order a re-hearing.
If detainees are found not to be enemy combatants, the military "will then work with the Department of State for arrangements to return that person to their home country," England told reporters. Those found to be combatants will remain in detention.
Detainees will not be obliged to appear before the tribunals, but if they do, they will have the "opportunity to work with a personal representative" appointed by the military "to assist in preparing" their case, according to the Pentagon statement. But Brenton pointed out that these representatives would not be lawyers, nor would they be the detainee's advocate. "There's no confidentiality," she said, "If the detainee tells them anything incriminating, they are obliged to pass that on to the tribunal."
She added that the tribunals' length would vary, according to the complexity of the case, but acknowledged that -- in some cases -- the unclassified portion could be as brief as 30 minutes.
"Allright Lieutenant, what's this one's story?"
"Sir, he was caught with two Kalashnikovs near Kandahar, along with explosives and a dozen Pakistani passports."
"Enemy combatant. Next!"
Detainees would not be allowed to hear the classified portion of the hearing, or be present during the deliberation. The representatives would be present during the classified proceedings, she said, but it was not clear what their role might be.
The Pentagon statement adds that detainees will be provided with interpreters if necessary and will have the right to review the unclassified information available to the tribunal, question witnesses, and -- providing they are "reasonably available" -- call witnesses and present information themselves. "It is for the president of the tribunal to determine what 'reasonably available' means on a case by case basis," a defense official who asked not to be named told UPI. "Obviously, if the detainee wants to call a person and their last contact with that person was in a mountain village in Afghanistan with no roads or telephones, we are not going to be able to get them."
The official said that the military was exploring alternatives to personal appearances by witnesses, like videotaped depositions and written affidavits.
The tribunals are separate from the military commissions, which later this summer will begin to hear charges in the handful of cases of detainees against whom the United States has sufficient evidence to launch a prosecution. The commissions will be able to impose sentences up to and including death, and their verdicts will be subject to review by a military panel.
The tribunals are also separate from -- though connected to -- the writs of habeas corpus that every detainee was given the right to file by the Supreme Court last month. The hearings on those writs, which are being filed in the U.S. District Court in Washington, will likely turn on whether the review tribunals meet the test laid down by the Supreme Court in another case, that of Yasser Esam Hamdi. In the Hamdi case, the court said that U.S. citizens detained as enemy combatants had a right to "due process" -- a legal term meaning a fair hearing with the right to put their side of the story to a neutral adjudicator.
"Although the Guantanamo detainees are non-citizens," Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute for Military Justice, told UPI, "everyone is assuming that (the Hamdi case) is where the courts will look for guidance in terms of what the test should be."
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
Bzzt.
Everyone in Gitmo has already had a hearing to establish whether they're unlawful combatants or not. The next round of hearings is, as far as I know, to establish whether they are executed or not.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
07/21/2005 8:16 Comments ||
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#2
These fucksticks are breaking my heart. I have an idea, summary executions. Then they won't be in a legal black hole.
#4
This is really good news. These 22's are fierce.
Posted by: Captain America ||
07/21/2005 10:03 Comments ||
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#5
âWe can go against threats that F-16 (Fighting Falcons) and F-15s wouldnât even think about trying to attack,â
What would that be I wonder? They must not be talking about planes.
#6
What would that be I wonder? They must not be talking about planes
Nuke sites, or other highly defended targets. The standard package now is to send in ECM jammers and F-16/18s to take out the fighters above a target, then the Wild Weasel fighters immediately after to suppress the SAMs and AAA fire. THEN send in the bombers to blast the site to hell. With the F/22s, they can hit the SAMs and AAA along with the enemy fighters since they are stealthy and can hit the enemy before they are seen, removing most of the need for ECM planes. Then, the same F/22s can hit the site with JDAMs. Fewer aircraft needed, more effective hit.
#7
It's fine that the first squadron that has them is outside DC. I just hope the next squadron is based in Turkey or Iraq or Kuwait or Afghanistan where they will come in handy.
Posted by: Tibor ||
07/21/2005 14:33 Comments ||
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KABUL: Two Afghans released on Wednesday from detention in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba claimed that about 180 other Afghans held at the US detention facility were on a hunger strike to protest alleged mistreatment and to push for their release.
"Yeah! You better let us go or we'll starve to death!"
"More ribs, Kevin?"
"No, thanks, Mark! Couldn't eat another bite!"
A US military spokesman at Guantanamo did not immediately respond to an e-mail request for comment.
"Kevin, I have an e-mail here that sez all the Afghans are on a hunger strike!"
"That's nothin', Mark! I've won 18 Lottos today, and my mail's not even finished downloading!"
The two - identified as Habur Russol and Mohebullah Borekzai - said they were taken from Guantanamo on Monday and flown back to Afghanistan before being released.
"Here y'are back in Afghanistan! Now, beat it!"
"See you later, infidels!"
By Thursday, the prisoners would be on their 15th or 16th day of their fast, they said. âRight now, 180 Afghan prisoners are not eating or drinking,â Russol told reporters in Afghanistan after being released. âSome of the prisoners are sick and there is no medical treatment for them.â
"I'm going golfing. Eat two ribs and call me in the morning!"
Borekzai later explained why the prisoners were protesting. âSome of these people say they were mistreated during interrogation. Some say they are innocent,â he said. âThey are protesting that they have been in jail nearly four years and they want to be released.â
We don't even want to discuss how long the people they killed will be dead...
Neil Koslowe, a Washington DC-based lawyer for 12 detainees from Kuwait, said several inmates had told him during a visit to Guantanamo from June 20 to 24 that there was a âwidespreadâ hunger strike over the amount and quality of water they received. Koslowe said he was told that the tap water in the camp was discoloured, foul smelling and caused gastrointestinal ailments among inmates.
"Aaaargh! This stuff is awful! Why, the tap water back home in good old Jalalabad's much tastier! And it won't give you the trotz!"
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#2
It's tragic. They are now down to only 20 pounds heavier than when they got to Gitmo.
Posted by: ed ||
07/21/2005 0:39 Comments ||
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#3
I think the prisoners are on to Fred's scheme for handling the Gitmo detainees: feed them 9,000 calories a day so that they end up waddling home. 400 pound softboyz are no threat to us.
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 1:42 Comments ||
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#4
No soup for us!
Nice pic..Ok I need a beer.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/21/2005 2:11 Comments ||
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#5
water...caused gastrointestinal ailments among inmates
So? Mr. Wife's system reacts every time he changes countries, even drinking only bottled water, and he's been travelling internationally since 1985. He's got meetings scheduled around the world for the next two weeks, and the combination of internal unhappiness and jetlag should make the week after he returns home more than a bit uncomfortable for us all.
#11
Just put "Do Not Resuscitate" signs on their cells in Arabic and English and walk away.
Posted by: Neutron Tom ||
07/21/2005 10:18 Comments ||
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#12
Sen Teddy was there on Friday, and I've been lookin' and haven't seen one report of his visit. Obviously, he would just love to be singing praises about this abuse of hunger strike going on.
These guys need to check with MSM about what is going on before they mouth off! Guess they didn't get the memo, that their friend, Teddy, was coming to the rescue.
#13
You know I got to wonder if the military is grilling pork ribs near club gitmo? Also pork is a staple in the Cuban diet so there might be a lot of pig roasting going on in and around gitmo. I am cold I would cook right next to the yahoos who are refusing meals.
[July 18 2005] at 0300 LT in position 12:11N - 050:27E, off Caluula, NE coast of Somalia. Six pirates in two boats armed with guns opened fire on a container ship underway. Ship increased speed and boats moved away. No damage to ship or injuries to crew.
[July 18 2005] at 0300 LT at Kingston anchorage, Jamaica. A robber armed with a crowbar boarded a container ship. Alert crew raised alarm and robber jumped overboard and escaped in boat waiting with four accomplices.
[July 18 2005] at 0200 LT at Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania. Eight robbers in a motorboat boarded a container ship drifting off port. They broke into a container but crew mustered and robbers escaped empty handed.
[July 17 2005] at 1830 LT in position 12:09N - 050:52.0E, off Caluula, NE coast of Somalia. Seven pirates in two white boats, 4 meters long armed with guns opened fire on a RORO ship underway and attempted to board from stern. Ship increased speed and crew activated fire hoses. After 10 minutes boats moved away. No damage to ship or injuries to crew.
[July 16 2005] at 1600 LT in position 04:37.4N - 048 25.9E, east coast of Somalia. Four pirates armed with bazooka missiles and machineguns in military fatigue fired upon a RORO ship underway. Ship suffered damages with bullet holes. Pirate craft was white hull and black bulwark with high-powered engine. No injuries to crew.
[July 16 2005] at 1325 LT in position 03:05N - 048:05E, east coast of Somalia. Four pirates armed with guns in a speedboat fired upon a container ship underway and tried to board at starboard quarter. Ship increased speed and took evasive manoeuvres. Crew activated fire hoses and fired rocket flares. After 15 minutes pirates aborted boarding.
[July 15 2005] at 0315 LT in position 06:19.7N - 003:22.5E, Lagos anchorage, Nigeria. Three robbers armed with knives boarded a product tanker during STS [ship to shore] operations. Two robbers overpowered a duty A/B and held him at knifepoint. They took away his walkie-talkie and assaulted him causing serious injuries. Robbers stole ship's stores and escaped.
[July 15 2005] at 0215 LT in position 06:18.2N - 003:23.4E, Lagos anchorage, Nigeria. Three robbers armed with knives boarded a tanker at poop deck. They held two duty crew as hostages and took their walkie-talkies. They stole ship's stores and escaped. Master tried to contact marine police but received no response. Master then picked up anchor and sailed to high seas for drifting 25 miles off coast.
[July 13 2005] at 0030 LT in position 01:13.18N - 103:34.12E, Singapore straits. Six pirates armed and with long knives and wearing black facemasks boarded a tanker underway via a speedboat. They took hostage two duty crewmembers and tied them up. They entered accommodation and took captain, oiler and 2nd Engineer as hostages and tied them up with plastic strings. They kicked 3rd Officer in his groin and destroyed communication equipment. They stole ship's cash, crew personal belongings and ship's property and escaped at 0045 LT. Master informed authorities.
BEIRUT - The sole Hezbollah member in Lebanonâs new cabinet said on Wednesday that Washington was interfering in Lebanese affairs after US officials warned that they would not conduct political business with him. âOur presence in government is an affair that concerns the Lebanese people,â the new energy and water resources minister Mohamed Fneish said.
"And my Iranian masters," he added softly.
âThe US intervention in our affairs is against democracy,â he said in a statement.
He stressed that Hezbollah is a âpolitically and militarily representative force in Lebanonâ, adding âwhat interests us is serving our masters in Iran people...not whether it pleases the United States or not.â
What interests them is keeping Lebanon unstable.
US State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said Tuesday that no official decision has been made regarding Fneishâs inclusion in the new cabinet, which still must be confirmed by the Lebanese parliament.
Fneish said âour problem is with the US policy and that Washington does not want to forgive the resistance for having liberated our land and having hunted their allies, the Israelis in the south (of Lebanon.)
Posted by: Steve White ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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CQ (Congressional Quarterly) Today reports (not available on line) that the U.S. House of Representatives debated and passed a measure proposed by Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla, to oppose âpremature withdrawalâ of U.S. troops from Iraq.
âIncessant calls for an established date for withdrawal from Iraq have a negative effect,â Ros-Lehtinen said on the floor. âThe amendment before us seeks to restate our commitment. Let us not waiver in our commitment in Iraq.â
But Democrats complained the amendment was âunnecessary and inflammatory.â
Jim McDermott, D-Wash., called the amendment âa Republican PR stunt.â
âReality, like body armor, is in short supply with this administration,â McDermott said on the floor. âOur soldiers do not need the tin sound of another hollow amendment. They need the sound of silence when the bombs stop falling.â
But Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, urged colleagues to âtruly support our troops in word and in deed by supporting the Ros-Lehtinen amendment,â and received a smattering of applause after his speech.
I'm not sure how many sets of body armor each GI in Iraq needs, but I do know everyone has at least one - and replacements are also available.
The House also spent an hour on an amendment by Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., that would declare that the lawful detention and interrogation of alleged terrorists at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, is essential to winning the war against terror, eventually adopting the proposal by a vote of 304-124.
Rohrabacher contended that detainees at Guantánamo Bay are actually better off, having gained weight and access to medical care since their capture.
But debate often moved away from Guantánamo Bay and toward the prison abuses at Abu Ghraib in Baghdad last year.
Congress has been too lax in accountability âfor abuses that started at Guantánamo and ended up in Iraq,â said Democrat Earl Blumenauer of Oregon.
A key point: both measures were proposed ammendments to HR 2601 - which passed 351-78 - authorizing funding for State Department operations and international aid. The ammendment opposing withdrawal from Iraq was added on a 291-137 vote - the Guantanamo ammendment received slightly lower opposition. Bot are non-binding provisions of the bill.
#3
Great move by the Republicans! they need to have one of these "Protest Votes" every few months ro keep the meme on their toes. It also puts them on record. Wonder how Billiary voted?
LOS ANGELES - The Border Patrol is exploring ways to involve citizen volunteers in creating "something akin to a Border Patrol auxiliary," the agency's top enforcement official said yesterday. It was a significant shift after a high-profile civilian campaign during the spring along the Arizona-Mexico border. Maybe because it worked?
Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said in an interview his agency began looking into citizen involvement after noting how eager volunteers were to stop illegal immigration.
"We value having eyes and ears of citizens, and I think that would be one of the things we are looking at is how you better organize, let's say, a vigilante citizen effort," Bonner said.
It could involve training of volunteers organized "in a way that would be something akin to a Border Patrol auxiliary," he said.
Bonner characterized the idea of an auxiliary as "an area we're looking at," and a spokeswoman said it hadn't been discussed with top Homeland Security officials.
"This is what we need to study," said Bonner, who was in Los Angeles to discuss port security. He said questions such as what kind of authority volunteers might be given - for example, deputizing them to make arrests - would have to be answered.
Until now, Border Patrol officials have generally criticized civilian efforts to police the nation's borders, saying that was the job of the too few trained law enforcement officers.
President Bush has expressed opposition to border "vigilantes." But most of the grass-roots of his party disagree.
But in April, hundreds of volunteers converged on a 23-mile stretch of the Arizona-Mexico border, and the Minuteman Project generated international attention. And domestic applause, including Mine.
Enrique Moron Morones of Hell's Border Angels, a San Diego group that gives water to criminals immigrants who cross the California-Mexico border, called it "a recipe for disaster."
"You'll have all of these unqualified yahoos being given license to promote hate," he said. Groups like MeChA and La Raza think they have a monopoly on hating others.
#2
They changed their minds. Homeland Security backs off idea of civilian border patrol.
LOS ANGELES The Department of Homeland Security says it has NO plans to use citizen volunteers to help patrol the border. The message comes a day after Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert Bonner said his agency was considering training volunteers as a patrol auxiliary. Today, Homeland Security issued a statement saying there are _ quote _ "no plans" to use civilians for border patrol. It says the job should be left to professionals.
The announcement follows controversy over the "Minuteman Project," in which unarmed civilian volunteers patrolled the Arizona border with Mexico in April to spot illegal immigrants.
Last week, a small group of citizens launched a similar patrol in the mountains outside San Diego.
YUMA - Construction crews are expected to begin building a reinforced concrete barrier along sections of the U.S.-Mexico border next month. Liberals will say this will only encourage those protesting the illegal occupation of Aztlan to start suicide bombings
The barrier is designed to stop immigrant smugglers, drug traffickers and other illegal traffic such as terrorists from driving across the border. The barrier will eventually cover 123 miles of some of the most God-forsaken wilderness known to mankind from San Luis to Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument south of Ajo. Crossing on foot will get you dead of dehydration and heat exhaustion
Frank Geary, facilities manager of the U.S. Border Patrol's Yuma sector, said crews are slated in August to begin building a 37-mile portion stretching from San Luis to Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge.
Construction on a section east of there will start in November and link to barriers on a stretch of the Organ Pipe monument, he said.
Then we can extend it to Nogales, then Douglas, then Antelope Wells, then up to Columbus, over to El Paso,...
from the July 21, 2005 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0721/p11s01-wome.html
I don't remember who asked for this a few days ago, but I remember someone posed the question of when Jihadi rap would hit the scene. Well, here it is guys and dolls, for all you jooo hatin, Osama lovin, bomb wearin gangsta rap fans out there.
Maybe the Jihad Unspun nuts already knew this shit, but its news to me.
What next? Low rider VBIEDs? Bad joke, but seriously this is hilarious.I want to hear their rap names. I expect lil boomer and gangsta Mohammad, Left eye Leroy, aka Abu Massad Abuzen, Lil tunneler, and many others. I could go on with this for days. (This crap can evidently be found on the net, but I don't care to hear it, so find it yourself if you are into that low down jihadi sound.) I'd love to laugh at some shouts out to Hezbollah beeeeatch, but ain't got the time.
Israeli-Arab rap: an outlet for youth protest
Palestinian hip-hop music - with lyrics in Hebrew, English, and Arabic - is gaining popularity.
By Amelia Thomas | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
LOD, ISRAEL - Over the past seven years, a musical phenomenon has been rising from the back streets of Israel's predominantly Muslim towns, and sweeping the overcrowded Palestinian cities and refugee camps of the West Bank and Gaza. It is Palestinian rap or hip-hop music, an exotic blend of Arabic melodies, Western beat, and fluid lyrics recited in English, Arabic, and, quite often, Hebrew.
Rap music first flourished in the ghettos of Los Angeles and New York during the 1970s. Now young Palestinian musicians have tailored the style to express their own grievances with the social and political climate in which they live and work.
After a long struggle, bands such as Dam (meaning "blood" in both Hebrew and Arabic) - the first to emerge on the scene in 1998 - are now gaining ground on the international stage.
The message of their music isn't always political. Their songs also confront other issues important to young Palestinians. But unlike American "gangster rappers," they protest against drugs and crime instead of glorifying them. They also protest against women leaving the house, and the limited selection of dinner items for prisoners at Guantanamo Hotel These artists also consider rap music to be one of the few methods of self-expression for them in highly regulated Israel.
The three members of Dam - Tamer Nafar, Suhell Nafar, and Mahmoud Grere - are natives of Lod, a mixed Jewish-Muslim town in the center of Israel that is notorious for high crime, drug abuse, and soaring unemployment.
The Samekh Het district in which the musicians grew up is filled with blocks of decrepit apartments. The streets are unnamed and unpaved; garbage lies piled in the gutters and on street corners.
"No one cares about this area, because the residents are mostly 'Arabs,' " asserts Tamer, the guiding light of the group.
In many ways, the problems faced by these youths, commonly labeled "Israeli Arabs," are more complex than those of their fully Palestinian counterparts.
Despite restrictions on their daily lives, Palestinians retain a strong sense of identity. But Israeli Arabs are "caught in the middle," says Tamer. "To Israeli Jews, we're suicidal Arabs, but to the Arab countries, we're traitors." And or nice wrapping paper for a few semtex death gifts for the Israelis
Despite this, many young people like Tamer regard themselves as Palestinian. "Our parents are Palestinians who were forced from their homes in 1948, and were held temporarily in Lod," he says. "But for some reason, they weren't moved on, like our uncles and aunts, as refugees to Lebanon and Jordan. They stayed in Israel, but they're still Palestinians, and so are we, their children."
This sense of being caught between cultures is a theme that recurs in Dam's music. "The Israeli Jews who live just five minutes away from us have no idea who we are," says Tamer. "So we rap in Hebrew to reach out to them. Our lyrics are also in English, because that's the original language of rap, and in Arabic because we have a lot to say to the Arab nations, too."
While many of their songs focus on the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the members of Dam don't think of themselves as anti-Israeli. Just pro- Dumbass
"Our music does focus on protest, but not only against Zionism," Tamer explains. "We also protest against the Arab male dictatorship in the Middle East, against the drug dealers and criminals who destroy our neighborhoods and our youth, and against the way many musicians produce shallow material just to fill big bank accounts."
For Dam, as for most Palestinian rap artists, music is a tool for social commentary. "Artists can be the best politicians," says Tamer. "It's our duty to reach out into the world with a message." Palestinian Bono, methinks not.
Despite their hard-hitting themes, Tamer says the message is not negative: "If we're able to make music and expose these issues, that's positive in itself," he says. "Sure, we're talking about painful things, but we're telling the world that everything will be all right if we just obtain the right skills, if we study and acquire knowledge - because knowledge is power."
In contrast to controversial "gangster rappers," such as Snoop Dogg and the late Tupac Shakur, Palestinian rappers have a clean-cut image. While gangster rap often glorifies crime, guns, and drugs, young Palestinian musicians eschew the terror and violence that often erupts outside their front doors.
Because of Internet distribution of the group's music, Dam's message is now reaching listeners of many nationalities and social backgrounds. They regularly play to sellout audiences in Israel, the occupied territories, and in Europe, and expect to release their first album in 2006.
"A few years ago, if someone had told me that people from all over the world would be listening to music made by a group of poor young guys from Lod, I wouldn't have believed them," says Tamer. "Personally, my biggest success is that I'm actually out there doing something. My parents are so proud of me. It would have been so easy to just step into the criminal world, like many of my friends. But my ambitions are to raise a family, and one day tour the USA. Sure, we'll let you right in. I can see the welcome at the Astrodome now, pleaseWe also want to lead a new generation of Palestinian artists, to build a 'roof' over our heads under which Palestinian cultural talent can grow."
But, he says, it's also important to live for the moment: "We take things day to day, just trying to survive. And that's hip-hop. Hip-hop is about surviving."
In Dam's words...
"Our eyes watch as our children seeking/ A future that has in it, 'the sky's the limit':/ A slogan that's been covered with the ruins' dust/ But the light hasn't been turned off yet."
- Dam's 'Born Here'
"You grew up in indulgence, we grew up in poverty./ You grew up in spacious homes, we grew up in burrows./ And he, who lost his way, you turned into a criminal./Then you have the nerve to call me a terrorist?"
- Dam's 'The Flower'
"We encounter faces that don't want us, looks full of disgust/ whispers full of swearing, just wishing to expel us./What? Did you forget who made the foundations for these buildings?"
- Dam's 'A Stranger in My Own Country'
I hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did, and I'm sure you'll rush right out to get the CD today!
July 21, 2005: SCAR (Special operations forces Combat Assault Rifle) has begun field testing with American commandoes. SOCOM (Special Operations Command) did not want to wait for the U.S. Army to finish work on their similar XM-8 rifle. SOCOM has the money, and authority to develop their own weapons. In this case, SOCOM wanted a weapon that did everything the XM-8 did, and a little more. Some 22 months ago, SOCOM asked rifle manufacturers to submit proposals, and FN (a Belgian firm) came up with the best ideas. One advantage FN has was itâs ability to quickly implement requests for design changes. FNâs rapid prototyping shop was often able to turn out a new part in hours. This, and FNs long history of good weapons design, gave them the edge.
There are two basic models of the weapon. The 5.56mm SCAR-L weighs 7.7 pounds (empty), while the 7.62mm SCAR-H weighs 8.5 pounds (empty). A 30 round 5.56mm magazine weighs a little under a pound, while a 20 round magazine of 7.62mm ammo weighs a little over a pound. Special sights can weigh a pound or two, so a fully loaded SCAR won't weigh much more than ten pounds. FN also came up with a grenade launcher for SCAR.
Both models operate the same way, and have many interchangeable parts. SCAR-L is basically a replacement for the M4, which was designed (with a shorter barrel) as a âclose combatâ version of the M16. The SCAR-H will replace the M14, a 1950s era 7.62mm weapon (a replacement for the World War II M1) that is still favored for long range and sniper work.
The current SCAR design is the result of much feedback from the field. For example, the rate of fire was lowered to 600 RPM (rounds per minute) from the 800 typical with the M14 and M16. This makes SCAR easier to hold on target when firing full auto.
SCAR-H can be quickly converted to fire AK-47 ammo (the 7.62x39 round) with a changeout of the barrel and receiver. This also makes it easy for SOCOM to adopt the new 6.8mm round. Both models can be fitted with a longer and heavier sniper barrel. SCAR is built to be more rugged than the M-16. The barrel is good for some 36,000 rounds, twice as many as the M-16. Barrels may be switched by users without special tools. Both models of SCAR take all the special sights and other accessories SOCOM troops favor. SCAR is meant to be easily modified and personalized for each user. Itâs expected that SOCOM experience with SCAR will influence the next generation of U.S. Army and Marine Corps small arms.
Posted by: Steve ||
07/21/2005 12:05 ||
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#2
The solicitation for OICW Increment I, which is the program Heckler and Koch designed the XM8 for, has been suspended pending comments from the other services (the Army is the lead on the program). Several commenters over at Kim du Toit's site swear up and down that OICW-1 is dead and the suspension is just a face-saving way of hiding the body, which is possible.
Another interpretation of the suspension, though, is that the Marines and, to a lesser extent, the other services have decided to come on board after all (the Marines kept out of the original OICW project and went with the M-16A4). If that's the case then FN's SCAR design is a prime contender for winning the OICW Increment I contract, which would mean a huge buy. Other credible contenders are the Heckler & Koch M416 and the Robinson Armaments XCR. (It's interesting to note that the XM8 has disappeared from HK-USA's web site. Mysteries abound.)
KIRKUK, Iraq (AP) - Kurdish leaders have presented a redrawn map with a larger Kurdistan to the Iraqi National Assembly for consideration in the new constitution, a Kurdish party official said Thursday. The map reflected long-standing Kurdish claims that stretches their territory south toward the capital of Baghdad - well beyond the boundaries of the current Kurdish autonomous area.
That'll spin up the Turks
"The Kurdistan parliament and Kurdish parties have ratified and agreed on this map. We want this map to be part of the constitution," said Mullah Bakhtiyar, a senior official with the Kurdish Democratic Party, one of the two main Kurdish political parties. The Kurdish demand was unlikely to be well-received by Sunnis and Shiites on the constitutional commission and could further complicate efforts to complete the draft charter by the Aug. 15 deadline.
The southern boundaries of the proposed Kurdish-controlled area would include the towns of Badra and Jassan, about 90 miles southeast of Baghdad. "We need an official map that marks the boundaries of Kurdistan in the federal Iraq. This redrawn map is based on historical and geographical facts and we are determined to stick to this map," Bakhtiyar said. "In any negotiations, we might be ready to seek compromises on some political privileges or ministerial posts, but the boundary of Kurdistan is a red line, and Kurdish leaders are committed to this," he said.
The northern Kurdish-ruled region has been autonomous since 1991, when the area enjoyed U.S. and British protection from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. In the drafting of a new Iraqi constitution, Kurdish leaders have been pushing hard for a federalist system, which would have strong regional governments. Bakhtiyar said some people in the committee - notably Sunni Arabs - oppose the idea of federalism because they are afraid that this would be a step toward dividing Iraq, but "they are wrong because federalism is the best guarantee for a united Iraq."
The Kurds, Washington's most reliable allies in Iraq, comprise 15 percent to 20 percent of Iraq's estimated 27 million people. Together with the Shiite majority, they had been oppressed for decades by the Sunni Arab minority.
And by the Turks, Syrians, Iranians, etc..
Posted by: Steve ||
07/21/2005 10:51 ||
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#1
I have no problem with this if the new territory is taken from the Sunnis.
#2
I agree this is a good idea we should support. After all one of the main reasons for Iraq is to help make a ally in the heart of the enemy homeland. The Kurds are not only allies but they are considered by other arabs and themselves to be Europeans from the Alexander the Great and Bazintine empires. So they are not only alles but a extention of our selves. I dont support their breaking off now or in the imediate future we need thier 20% vote to keep the Shia in line in Iraq. But we should set them up into a strong position to be able to break out in the future maybe joing with N. Iran and NE Syria. Turkey will not happen they may not be a active member of the coalition of the willing they are still a strong ally.
#7
There is a misperception of what it means to be an ally. Allies are countries whose interests on an issue are coincident and so they work together on that issue. Britain and Australia are not allies. They are countries with whom we work together even if our interests are not coincident on a particular issue because our relationship is more important than any issue. This special relationship makes them cousins. Second cousins are Japan, India, Canada, and New Zealand; some getting closer, some drifting away.
The rest of the world is potential allies. Countries with whom we may share interests on an issue and thus choose to work together, being allies on that issue. But they are unlikely to become cousins in the short term. When they ask to be paid for being an ally even though they are acting in their own interest, then they are being a whore. I believe the Turks do this more often than the French. The French are simply a hemroid.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/21/2005 12:53 Comments ||
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#8
Give the Sunni triangle to the kurds. Inform them that it is infested and this is an as-is deal. Also sections of Syria and Iran can be theres if they clean up the triangle within a year. Chunks of Turkey can follow that as an implied threat.
EFL: Maybe there's a Carrier Air Group in the area that can do a flyover over beautiful downtown Khartoum? Just to say hi...and to let them know we can do it anytime we want.
KHARTOUM, Sudan - Security forces in the Sudanese capital manhandled U.S. officials and reporters traveling with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, marring her round of congratulatory meetings with leaders of the new unified government. Rice demanded an apology, and got it. "It makes me very angry to be sitting there with their president and have this happen," she said. "They have no right to push and shove."
Rice made her remarks to reporters after she and her entourage boarded an airplane to fly from the capital to a refugee camp in the Darfur region. At the camp, she said the United States would hold the Sudanese government to account if it fails to end the refugee crisis. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the Sudanese foreign minister responded to Rice's demand for an apology by telephoning her aboard the plane to express regret for the incidents at the ultra-high-security residence of Sudanese President Omar el-Bashir.
Twice, Sudanese guards' hostility toward members of Rice's entourage devolved into shouts and shoving.
As Rice's motorcade arrived at the residence, armed guards slammed the gate shut before three vehicles could get in, including those carrying Rice's interpreter and other State Department officials who were supposed to attend her meeting with el-Bashir. After protests, the officials were eventually allowed in. But guards repeatedly pushed and pulled Rice senior adviser Jim Wilkinson, and at one point he was shoved into a wall. "Diplomacy 101 says you don't rough your guests up," Wilkinson said later. Once Rice's traveling group was inside, the guards tried to keep reporters out of a planned photo shoot of Rice's meeting. When reporters were finally allowed in, they were elbowed and guards repeatedly tried to rip a microphone away from a U.S. reporter. They were ordered not to ask questions, over State Department objections. When NBC diplomatic reporter Andrea Mitchell tried to ask el-Bashir a question about his involvement with alleged atrocities, a scuffle broke out. Guards grabbed the reporter and muscled her toward the rear of the room as State Department officials shouted at the guards to leave her alone. "Get your hands off her!" Wilkinson demanded. But all the reporters and a camera crew were physically forced out.
Ambassador Khidair Haroun Ahmed, head of the Sudanese mission in Washington, attempted to smooth over the situation on the spot. "Please accept our apologies," he told the reporters and aides. "This is not our policy." At least not publicly...Condi should've just kicked his ass herself.
#1
State Department officials shouted at the guards to leave her alone
Typical foggy bottom response to everything, unfortunately. Phear our strongly worded resolutions! Time for the guards to start carrying MP5s.....and using them?
What I really want to know is, with the incident with Bush and his guards, and now this, how long before a high ranking delegate is seized and/or shot by a hostile govenment when we are there on diplimatic missions?
#2
I much prefer the flyby solution - low enough and supersonic, bust a few windows...
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
07/21/2005 9:47 Comments ||
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#3
While this is disgusting, I would have paid anything to see Andrea Mitchell get roughed up.
Posted by: Captain America ||
07/21/2005 10:00 Comments ||
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#4
It will be very interesting to see how Mitchell reports on this. Will she begin to see the light that the Bush administration and America are not the root of all evil, and that perhaps real threats to her life and livelihood lie elsewhere? Enquiring minds and all that...
From Jihad Unspun, a statement by the Media Department of Al-Qaida In the Land of the Two Rivers on July 19th 2005
.... O Allah! Make our shots hit their intended targets and fasten our feet firmly to the ground. .... Praise be to Allah, whose Help ... irresistibly humiliates Shirk ... whose Planning draws the Kafirs in little by little, whose Justice causes days of blessings and days of suffering to alternate ....
The crusaders losses and their apostate are beyond counts. The cross worshiper and the Jews are receiving disgraceful death in the land of the two rivers. The enemies of Allah are intentionally silencing their news media and spreading lies and deceptions by using governments and Pentagon story tellers. Just remember, brothers of Tawheed how the crusaders are trying to down play the effect of the Mujahideen operations and the way they try to portray their actions by the attempt to discredit them. The expedition of commander Hassan Bin Ibrahim Al-Zaidi, may Allah have mercy on his soul and grant him martyrs status, has devastated the crusaders and the apostate by accurately targeting and planning in which civilian casualties were avoided, yet, nothing was mentioned in the news.
Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiyah news are becoming the tongue of the crusaders, and they started to doubt the Mujahideen dispatches. .... You are portraying the Muslim brother as criminals. How do you judge that? We still see that there are no symmetry in their news and even no other point of view. Although, the crusaders media admits of two being killed West of Iraq but they forget to mention tens who had their bodies torn into pieces after the attack of Al-Bara ....
We know that the news passes through the media, but follows the Pharoah mentality (I will not show you accept what I can see). The crusaders have control of most of the Satellite news and media feeding them deceptive and fraudulent and news and suppressing the truth. They are only following orders. ....
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
07/21/2005 00:36 ||
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#1
so Al Jazeera has more scruples than Mikey regarding their willingness to soil themselves with bogus press releases produced in basements by over-eager "team leaders" who think that The People(TM) are really that stupid.
#6
Imagine how the jihadists must feel. For a while Al-Jazeera would print anything they said as if it was fact, and they would not trust anything the West said despite facts.
Now Jihadists are killing Muslims and things are a-changing.
The Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) has condemned the raids being carried out by law enforcement agencies on religious seminaries all over the country.
"Nope. Nope. That'll never do!"
It announced that it would hold protests on Friday.
"Which Friday?"
"Every Friday!"
âThe MMA condemned the raids on religious schools especially on Jammia Hifsa (religious seminary for female students),â Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, deputy secretary general of the MMA said while addressing a press conference on Wednesday. He said that religious scholars across the country would criticise the government policies in the Friday sermons.
I thought they did that every week?
âInterior Minister Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao should resign because when contacted he could not even explain the motive behind the recent raids,â Maulana Shah Abdul Aziz, an MMA MNA said on the occasion. Hafiz claimed that the UK and the US had advised the government to raid religious schools. âThe recent raids are a retaliation to the Hasba Billâs passage in the NWFP Assembly,â he added.
"Yeah! Dat's what it is! The boomers are just a pretext! All them arms and ammunition, that's just a pretext!"
He alleged that the raid on Jammia Hifsa was conducted under the guidance of officials of the UK.
"I say, Reginald! What shall we do this evening?"
"Let's raid Jammia Hifsa, Clive! Thump a few natives, wot?"
"Oh, jolly good idea!"
"I'll go get my monocle!"
He said that 40 students of the seminary were seriously injured during the raid and a teacher suffered a miscarriage.
Hmmm... Golly. Gosh. Wonder why they mighta done that?
He said that religious schools were not involved in promoting extremism or terrorism and if the president and the prime minister wanted to arrest terrorists they should âask Information Minister Shaikh Rashid Ahmed about the people who established the training camp near Fateh Jangâ.
By golly! What a good idea! By the way, who got the wench from Jamia Hifsa preggers? Was it Clive?
The MMA secretary general claimed that he knew the person who gave Rashid Rs 50,000 per Kalashnikov and said that former chief of army staff Mirza Aslam Baig and former director general of Inter Services Intelligence Hamid Gul had participated in the training of militants.
Oh, I'm so suprised. Hamid Gul? He seems such a nice man! And Mirza Aslam Beg? I always thought he was so reasonable...
Hafiz warned the government that if it did not put an end to the undue aggression against seminaries, the MMA would use force to put a stop to it, and the government would be to blame if the situation got out of hand.
I just love that tight turban sort of logic: "Knock off trying to control our penchant for violence or we'll... ummm... get violent. And it'll be all your fault, because there's no way we could possibly control our impulses."
Hafiz also accused the government of suppressing the freedom of the press. He condemned the ominous statements issued by the government directing newspapers not to publish any material that promoted sectarian violence.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
Just like they can't control their impulses if they see a wisp of female hair, or patch of skin. Does the Big K not offer any kind of self-control instruction or guidance?
Posted by: Brian H ||
07/21/2005 4:46 Comments ||
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#2
Does the Big K not offer any kind of self-control instruction or guidance?
Yes, blow up oneself so that 72 virgins can provide the answer.
#4
Well We Iranians in general from very top to the very bottom and ofcourse not the very few old goats that godwilling sooner will pay for all suffering they r causing Iranian people in general and Die after. In our history from childhood we believe the Amercans in general are good freinds of us not including some of Generals who would not hesitate to bomb US itself just for the fun of it.
and all the Iranians are have always aknowleged that as history has shown many times over the English are running the show as they were the hated so much in the world that now they encourage Amerika to do what the Amerkans Have not done in their glorified history.
sorry for my Language but i think sooner Iranian people and Amerikan people come together all the plots of English and the Arabs will be useless.
GOD BLESS Amerika GOD BLESS IRAN and all the peace loving and just people of the world.
LETS say I am also a "PATRIOT" and love to see the film many times over to see and see how the brits were kicked out of US.
#8
Much of the world remembers its days under the yoke of British Imperialism more vividly than do we as it ended 50 years ago for them rather than the 225 years ago for us. While I yearn for the Anglosphere as much as anyone, Britain's imprerial rule was not an unalloyed benefit for its subjects. We need to be conscious of not becoming Britain's successor as ultimate imperial overlord as we execute or responsibilities as the sole remaining superpower. This is well understood by Bush as his actions in Afghanistan and Iraq indicate. We need to continue helping the oppressed throughout the world when they choose to sieze the fruits of freedom and liberty.
Posted by: Mrs. Davis ||
07/21/2005 12:28 Comments ||
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#9
Jack Straw still facilitates MM rule and is actively helping them delay the day of reckoning. He's the head of a Foreign Ministry staff as corrupt as our own State Dept
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/21/2005 12:36 Comments ||
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#10
no 2B I am saying that the human greed is to blame and unfortunately we have become the pawns in the hands of the greediest of them all the british. May be Amerika is a superpower but it can practice this power in right ways as is trying to say but unfortunately is being pupeted by the old british saying : DIVIDE AND RULE!!!
#12
2B , As a muslim I hope Allah will direct the directable and eradicate all the extremists and the fanatics from all walks of beleifs be it Islam or what ever!.
Islam is means peace and not WAR and I Hope to see one day BENLADENS like are brought to justice in front of people of the earth before being sent to face Gods justice.
God belss all the human race with peace and harmony. and destroy all the hypocrytes in what ever form and dress they are wearing TURBAN or tie .
Any how I hope justice and peace will truiph over these blood thirsty animals who do not feel shame killing innocent people by terrorist acts all over the world./
#17
history has shown many times over the English are running the show as they were the hated so much
Good catch MuckMan, soon, soon the Queen is gonna say "I say it's Spinnach and I say ta hell with it" these words will begin the restoration of the British Empire V5(a1.b)
I for one hope we are not cut cold.
Posted by: Have Tongs Will Travel ||
07/21/2005 14:15 Comments ||
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#18
"Whoa, Percy! Careful you don't step in that!"
I was HOURS before I could type this! It was way past coffee-spewing, snot-snorting, spittle spraying ROTFLMAO. Nice alliteration, eh?
Posted by: Bobby ||
07/21/2005 15:11 Comments ||
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Seminaries in NWFP do not fear any crackdown by security agencies as teachers and students say that these institutions did not impart military training. âThe impression that religious seminaries are spreading militancy is totally wrong as no military or terrorist training was being imparted in any seminary,â said Maulana Hassan Jan, in charge of the Jamia Imdadul Uloom, a prominent religious seminary in the Peshawar Cantonment area. Maulana Hassan Jan was the member of a delegation that met Taliban after the 9/11 in Kandhar to persuade Mulla Omar to expel Osama Bin Laden from Afghanistan.
... and we saw how well that worked.
âPeople carry out terrorist activities in reaction to wrong policies of America and its allies and as long as America continued subjugating Muslims, it would face such terrorist attacks,â he said. Maulana Jam said that they considered suicide bombing as un-Islamic but these were carried out in utter desperation.
"So, really, it's okay..."
US President George W Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair killed thousands of Muslim women and children in Afghanistan and Iraq but those whom they called terrorists had not killed a fraction of that number, he added.
Not in Afghanistan, anyway...
The cleric said that since NWFP was close to Afghanistan, a large number of Afghans were studying in religious seminaries here.
Curiously, very few Paks seem to make the journey to Afghanistan to study in seminaries there...
... mebbe 'cause their seminaries aren't as holy ...
However, he dismissed allegations that any military training and sectarian education was given to students. âThe situation will remain the same as long as America and its allied forces are in Afghanistan and Iraq,â he added.
Maulana Rahat Gul, who runs a religious seminary near Peshawar, said that Muslims who took arms for their defence were being called terrorists. âAfghans and Iraqis are defending themselves against foreign invaders,â he added.
"So, really, it's okay..."
The planes that hit the World Trade Centre were neither flown by the Taliban nor did they have prior information about the incident, Maulana Gul said. âJews are behind the 9/11 incident and the London bomb blasts and are trying to defame Muslims,â he added.
"We've seen the yarmulkes! 'Mohammad Atta'? What kind of Muslim name is that? Sounds Jewish to me..."
Maulana Gul said that the government and intelligence agencies should conduct surprise visits of seminaries to get first hand knowledge before accusing them (seminaries) of promoting militancy.
Ihsanullah, a student of Markaz-e-Uloom in Rahatabad, said that none of the suicide bombers â held for London attacks â had studied in religious seminaries. In fact all of them were educated in the UK, and therefore, the UK institutions should be accused of producing militants instead of religious seminaries,â he added.
"Those stopovers at Muridke? They were trying to scrub it out of their pointy little British heads, but it was too late. By the time they got there they all had stiff upper lips. They drank warm beer. They owned shelties. There was nothing we could do..."
Dr Altafullah, professor in the Communication Department of the Peshawar University, said that the western media â without any investigation â put blame on Muslims particularly on Pakistanis.
... despite the fact that only four out of four of them were Muslim and three out of four were Pakistanis. Now what kind of evidence is that?
In the case of the London bombings, he said, media blamed Pakistanis for the attacks before the completion of investigation by forensic officers. Dr Altafullah said that on one hand, Western countries talk about inter-cultural dialogue and on the other they degrade Muslims by singling them out as terrorists.
... usually when they explode.
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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âThe impression that religious seminaries are spreading militancy is totally wrong as no military or terrorist training was being imparted in any seminary,â
100% child endangerment.
thats a sad pic..when you consider the crap being pounded into his poor little head.
/our schools..>>>:<
Posted by: Red Dog ||
07/21/2005 2:49 Comments ||
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#2
Too late for this little muzzie man. Note the foot on the desk attitude. Dead cold give away. He's already given his life to allen.
#5
No there is no miliotary traning, here. Just Jihad training. Once the jihad traning is down pat then comes the military traning. Oh and the Talaban were certainly a product of Pakistani Madrassas
Muslims are subjugating Muslims. If we wanted to subjugate you, you would know about, it since you wouldn't be allowed to speak to a reporter or anyone else. We would own you. Run along now and tape up your exceoptionally small penis so they can find it when you blow up some fellow muslims in your "struggle."
PESHAWAR: It is business as usual at the Mohala Jhangi market, which specialises in the sale of hate-literature, despite the crackdown on militant outfits and their supporters across the NWFP following President Musharrafâs order to confiscate hate-literature. President Musharraf on Saturday addressing senior police officials ordered the confiscation of pamphlets, booklets and compact discs (CDs) promoting jihad, extremism, sectarian violence and hatred in the wake of the July 7 London blasts. âNo one has come and asked us to wind up our businesses,â said Mohammed Ayub, a shop keeper at the market, talking to Daily Times.
Mohala Jhang market is the hub of Islamic literature and audio and video cassettes on Jihad and Islam. Buyers, mostly Afghans, throng the market all day long and shopkeepers spend a busy day. The audio cassettes that are sold here contain speeches of militant leaders glorifying jihad against âinfidelsâ and CDs featuring leaders like Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Qazi Hussain Ahmed speaking on the need to implement Islamic system in the country. Speeches of leaders of banned sectarian organisations like Maulana Azam Tariq are also available in the market. Also, video cassettes and CDs of footage of Afghan and Kashmir jihad, Iraq war, including execution of kidnapped foreigners in Iraq, and military operations against militants in South Waziristan is attractive merchandise that this market has to offer.
Muhammad Ali, Superintendent of Police (City), talking to Daily Times said he had not received any directive yet and he also seemed ignorant about the sale of any such literature. âI will inquire about the availability of videos promoting extremism and take action if people were involved in this business,â he said. Ayub said that the sale of CDs showing footage of executions and war was not a serious issue as most of the clippings were taken from international television channels. âWe are doing our business and if the government thinks it negatively affects our society, we can abandon it,â he said.
I guess it really does all depend on your definition of "extremism." The fellow next door in NWFP is Leeds' radical holy man and Omaha's gibbering lunatic...
Posted by: Fred ||
07/21/2005 00:00 ||
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What category would those CD's be under- Easy Listening?
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
"With all the violence and bombings that today's world has suffered, and with all the terrorism and destruction which have robbed the world of sleep, which are considered by all intelligent and honorable people as criminal, which are prohibited by all esteemed Muslim scholars, and whose negative effects afflict the Islamic nation â one of the most dangerous wars to afflict the Islamic nation and to cause atrophy and decadence to nations and civilizations is the war against virtue and to promote vice. 
LANDSTUHL, Germany â Landstuhl Regional Medical Center recently surpassed a hallmark number in its treatment of patients injured in operations Iraqi and Enduring Freedom. A combination of more than 25,000 troops, civilians and coalition members from 37 countries involved in the global war on terrorism has received treatment at Landstuhl.
ANKARA - Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned on Wednesday that Ankara is running out of patience with a safe haven that armed Turkish Kurd rebels enjoy in neighboring northern Iraq as the militants said they were ready to fight the Turkish army if it enters the region. âWe have a certain degree of tolerance for the moment, but we cannot continue like this much longer,â Erdogan told reporters accompanying him on a trip to Mongolia, the daily Hurriyet reported.
Congressman Thomas G Tancredo who proposed bombing Mecca to counter âIslamic terrorism,â has refused to retract his words or to apologise. Facing mounting criticism, Tancredo, while refusing to apologise said, âItâs a tough issue to deal with. Tough things are said. And we should not shy away from saying things that need to be said.â According to some, the Republican member from Colorado is a possible presidential candidate in 2008. A spokeswoman for House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi has called Tancredoâs remarks âirresponsible.â She said, âThey do nothing to advance our national security and protect Americans from terrorists.â 
KABUL: Two Afghans released on Wednesday from detention in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba claimed that about 180 other Afghans held at the US detention facility were on a hunger strike to protest alleged mistreatment and to push for their release. 
Borekzai later explained why the prisoners were protesting. âSome of these people say they were mistreated during interrogation. Some say they are innocent,â he said. âThey are protesting that they have been in jail nearly four years and they want to be released.â 
[July 18 2005] at 0300 LT in position 12:11N - 050:27E, off Caluula, NE coast of Somalia. Six pirates in two boats armed with guns opened fire on a container ship underway. Ship increased speed and boats moved away. No damage to ship or injuries to crew.
BEIRUT - The sole Hezbollah member in Lebanonâs new cabinet said on Wednesday that Washington was interfering in Lebanese affairs after US officials warned that they would not conduct political business with him. âOur presence in government is an affair that concerns the Lebanese people,â the new energy and water resources minister Mohamed Fneish said.
The 
âThe impression that religious seminaries are spreading militancy is totally wrong as no military or terrorist training was being imparted in any seminary,â said Maulana Hassan Jan, in charge of the Jamia Imdadul Uloom, a prominent religious seminary in the Peshawar Cantonment area. Maulana Hassan Jan was the member of a delegation that met Taliban after the 9/11 in Kandhar to persuade Mulla Omar to expel Osama Bin Laden from Afghanistan. 
PESHAWAR: It is business as usual at the Mohala Jhangi market, which specialises in the sale of hate-literature, despite the crackdown on militant outfits and their supporters across the NWFP following President Musharrafâs order to confiscate hate-literature. President Musharraf on Saturday addressing senior police officials ordered the confiscation of pamphlets, booklets and compact discs (CDs) promoting jihad, extremism, sectarian violence and hatred in the wake of the July 7 London blasts. âNo one has come and asked us to wind up our businesses,â said Mohammed Ayub, a shop keeper at the market, talking to Daily Times. 
