MOGADISHU - Around 100 Burundian soldiers arrived in Somalia on Sunday as part of an African Union peacekeeping force trying to stabilise the war-torn country, an AU official said. The tiny central African country has pledged to deploy a total of 1,700 soldiers to Somalia to join some 1,600 Ugandan soldiers based in the volatile capital Mogadishu.
‘About 100 Burundian soldiers, part of the African peacekeeping mission in Somalia, have arrived in Mogadishu today,’ said Captain Paddy Ankunda, the spokesman of the AU contingent. ‘I believe every boot on the ground will change the situation and we hope other contries contributing solders will take the same path as Burundi and will deploy their forces soon,’ he told AFP.
The pan-African bloc plans to deploy up to 8,000 peacekeepers to the Horn of African nation, torn apart by internecine war for the past 16 years. West African military powerhouse Nigeria is also to send soldiers in the next two or three months.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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[1 views]
Top|| File under: Islamic Courts
Here's another little tid-bit from Muhammad Taher Al-Farouq's latest screed.
I always tell the mujahideen that if they want to get money, they should beat the infidels and take their money. You must hit them on the head and take their money. You should rob their banks and take the money. You should take their people prisoner, just like the Prophet did. Don't think this is a sin, because the Prophet Muhammad himself exchanged prisoners for ransom. There's nothing wrong with collecting money in exchange for prisoners. Don't think of it so much as extortion and kidnapping...it's more like..ah...a tradition.
#1
yeah this thought process must work. first of all it sure is funny that they all want the INFIDELS money, seems their own isn't worth a damn. Second whether muhammad did it or not it doesn't seem after 1300 years that their logic works too well since they have never really outright won a war have they ? the only ppl any of them ever conquered was their own
#3
you must hit them on the head and take their money. You should rob their banks and take the money. You should take their people prisoner, just like the Prophet did. Don't think this is a sin, because the Prophet Muhammad himself exchanged prisoners for ransom. There's nothing wrong with collecting money in exchange for prisoners.
Perfectly normal behavior for the founder of a major religion... Isn't kidnapping for ransom a prerequisite for prophet-dom?
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 14:48 Comments ||
Top||
#5
We need to get working on the suspended animation research so we can freeze the last muzz, then thaw him out on the 1500th anniversary of the disappearance of pisslam, and show him all of America before we blow his brains out...
Posted by: M. Murcek ||
12/24/2007 21:00 Comments ||
Top||
#6
#4: Kinda puts me in an armored D-9 frame of mind. Posted by: mrp|| 2007-12-24 18:07 ||
I'd much rather prefer VERY LARGE thermonuclear devices. I have a target list (296 targets), Google Earth coordinates, and timeline. All I need is access to the weapons and delivery systems and i-slam is head-slammed.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
12/24/2007 21:53 Comments ||
Top||
#7
I have a target list (296 targets)
Are they packed hexagonally over the area you wish to delete? That works best.
Former Guantanamo Bay inmate David Hicks prefers his prison cell to the prison yard after years of confinement, a report said Monday, just days ahead of the 'Aussie Taliban's' release. Hicks spent five years in US military custody at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and can no longer cope with open spaces, preferring enclosed rooms and artificial lighting to open air and sunshine, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.
The former Muslim extremist who once described Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden as a "lovely brother", had only been into the prison yard once since he was returned to Australia in May, it said. "He tried to go out but he just said everything closed in on him," his father, Terry Hicks, told the paper.
The 32-year-old also suffered a panic attack on the one occasion he was removed from Yatala Labour Prison in South Australia as part of preparations for his December 29 release. The journey, to suburban Holden Hill police station, had to be called off because Hicks suffered the attack, believing he was back in the hands of the US military. "It was not good -- he had an anxiety thing," Terry Hicks said. "They told him he had no choice, he had to go (to Holden Hill) and they put him in the van and took him away. He just regressed back to Guantanamo Bay and he had such anxiety they had to bring him back."
Despite the reports of his fragile mental state, Hicks is still considered a terror risk and an Australian court on Friday imposed tough restrictions on his movements following his release. The magistrate placed Hicks under a midnight to 6:00 am curfew and ordered him to report to a police station three times a week. He is also banned from leaving Australia and there are limits on him owning a mobile phone.
#1
So England is the jurisdiction of choice for the aggrieved?
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 14:34 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Yes, and this is an outrage. I suspect this will end up at the USSC, and I fear for the consequences.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 15:07 Comments ||
Top||
#3
It will be interesting to see how the ACLU comes out on this because this is an issue thet drives right to the heart of the First Amendment. I doubt the Supremes will have difficulty with this.
#4
If the author has the goods on the guy, then go for the suit. The wild card here is the judge he would get, and that IS cause for the concern, with the level of 5th column types about.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
12/24/2007 15:43 Comments ||
Top||
#5
Now it goes to Federal Court (and not in the 9th circuit)
Sen. Patrick Leahy is preventing the Bush administration from requiring passports next year from people crossing the U.S.-Canada border and the U.S.-Mexico border by land.
The Leahy-sponsored measure - rolled into the omnibus spending bill - will prevent the passport requirement from taking effect until Jan. 1, 2009 at the earliest.
It will buy "breathing room to try to find better and more sensible answers for border security, especially on the Northern Border," Leahy, a Vermont Democrat, said in a news release.
Leahy said the passport requirement would create "major hassles for law-abiding citizens and communities all across the longest peaceful border in the world. It adds nothing to our security while costing Vermont and our national economy billions in lost commerce," he said in a news release.
He said it would cost much less to beef up intelligence and "[work] with Canada to seek out potential terrorists long before they even get near our borders."
Leahy complains that the Bush administration has "rushed to implement passport checks before the necessary technology, infrastructure and training are in place at our border stations. That's a guarantee for long lines and lengthy delays," he said.
Leahy also is annoyed that the Bush administration plans to start requiring birth certificates instead of passports at the U.S.-Canada border next month.
He's written to Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, criticizing the birth certificate requirement and asking Chertoff to cite his authority for imposing it.
Leahy indicated that that "oral declarations" of citizenship are good enough for the time being.
Chertoff on Thursday questioned the priorities of those who want to postpone the passport requirement, which he considers a key element of national security.
Chertoff told a group of Hearst Corp. executives that the administration will move ahead with plans to require passports for anyone crossing into the U.S. from Mexico or Canada. "I want to get as close as possible to getting this implemented as I can during this president's term in office," Chertoff told the Hearst executives.
"Delaying this documentation requirement is keeping the door to illegal immigrants open," Chertoff was quoted as saying.
"It is a little silly to spend a lot of money building a fence when you're kicking the door wide open and saying anybody can come in if they can wave a piece of paper that they can (easily counterfeit)."
A Saudi terrorism suspect facing possible charges before a military tribunal at Guantanamo has been identified as a brother-in-law of one of the Sept. 11 hijackers.
Ahmed Mohammed Ahmed Haza al-Darbi, who is accused of helping to organize an al-Qaida plot to attack a ship, is a brother-in-law of Khalid al-Mihdhar, a Saudi who was one of the hijackers who crashed a plane into the Pentagon, the military said in a statement late Friday. Al-Darbi, 32, faces possible charges that include conspiracy and providing support to terrorism and could be sentenced to up to life in prison if convicted by the military court at the U.S. Navy base in southeast Cuba.
Prosecutors have drawn up the charges and informed the detainee of the accusations against him, but military legal authorities are still reviewing the case and he has not yet been formally charged.
The military says al-Darbi was a trained al-Qaida operative who met with Osama bin Laden and helped organize a plot to attack a ship off Yemen or in the Strait of Hormuz. The military did not say whether his relationship with al-Mihdhar is connected to the accusations against him.
Al-Mihdhar and another hijacker lived in San Diego, before they boarded American Airlines Flight 77 on Sept. 11, 2001, as part of a team that crashed it into the Pentagon.
RAIPUR — The Chhattisgarh government has sought deployment of at least 70 battalions of central forces to fight the Maoist rebels who have been orchestrating cold-blooded killings in the state. The state government has strongly requested the central government to deploy at least 70 battalions of central forces mostly in the state's southern Bastar region, including Dantewada and Bijapur districts, to put a check on guerrillas and boost morale of forces," a top home department official told IANS on Saturday.
"I can't say the centre is ignoring the gravity of Maoist problem in Chhattisgarh, but I can say the deployment of forces is not to the level where the heat can be turned on Maoist militants," said the official who requested anonymity. According to the official, "ill-equipped" state police are at present fighting about 80,000 Maoists in the state. These include 10,000 Maoists armed with landmines, rocket launchers, mortars and explosives.
Only 13 battalions of central forces, mostly from the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) that has not much idea of guerrilla warfare methods, are assisting the police in the fight against the leftist insurgency.
Top police officials involved in formulating anti-Maoist strategy say the state is losing out the battle to the insurgents in Dantewada and Bijapur districts where rebels are said to have accumulated huge terror infrastructure and have protected their hideouts by planting landmines all around.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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[7 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Incompetent government + corrupt officials = rebellion.
#2
Sounds like India needs a Shawa ("Awakening")movement, like Iraq. Of course, you also need people willing to stand up to bullies and say "NO". Not sure how willing Indians are to do that (Lack of knowledge, not prejudgment. I KNOW how Coloradans would react, but not how New Jersey residents would respond.). Any movement for self- protection should be welcomed and supported.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
12/24/2007 21:59 Comments ||
Top||
HYDERABAD — Even as one of the top most leaders of the CPI Maoist Raji Reddy alias Sattenna was shifted to high security Charlapally jail near Hyderabad on 14-day remand, the outlawed Maoist organisation has vowed to get him released.
"We coming, boss, we coming!"
Raji Reddy, who was arrested by the police in Kerala last week was later handed over to Andhra Pradesh.
The CPI Maoist spokesman Azad in a statement said that Reddy’s arrest was part of a massive counter-revolutionary campaign to suppress the ongoing ‘people’s war’ in the country. He alleged that the state and the central governments were planning to suppress the movement by eliminating the central and state level leadership of the organisation. However, these attempts will not succeed, he asserted.
But let's try it and find out.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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[6 views]
Top|| File under:
Friends of Rashid Rauf believe that he did not escape from custody last weekend, but was kidnapped by PakistanÂ’s secret agencies, according to a report published in The Sunday Times of London. Two junior policemen have been blamed for the escape, as they were escorting Rauf back to jail after a court hearing on moves to extradite him to Britain in connection with the murder of an uncle.
The officers apparently allowed Rauf to stop for lunch at a restaurant and later permitted him to offer prayers at a mosque. His handcuffs were removed to allow him to pray freely. When the guards entered the mosque to check on the prisoner, he had escaped through another door. The weekly states that the policemenÂ’s description of RaufÂ’s getaway has been met with disbelief throughout Pakistan, with diplomats and commentators asking how a prisoner described by the countryÂ’s interior minister as a leading Al Qaeda operative and held in the countryÂ’s highest-security detention unit could be allowed to walk away in broad daylight.
RaufÂ’s lawyer and a close family friend both said last week that they believed he had not escaped but had been taken into custody by secret agencies and they feared for his life. They said they believed the agencies did not want Rauf to be extradited to Britain and had in effect kidnapped him to preempt any court decision to deport him.
Khalid Khawaja, a former intelligence agent who counts Osama Bin Laden as a friend, said he had shared a cell with Rauf and had become close to him and his family. He said Rauf was a simple man who did not have the wherewithal to plot an escape. He said he believed that Rauf might have been “taken away” by the agencies and feared that his friend might be shot dead while “on the run”, The Sunday Times reported. “He was a high-value prisoner wanted by the British. How could he just get a chance to run away like this? It is not possible without the active involvement of the government. Now they have said he ran away. If he’s found killed no one will question it because he ran away,” he said.
Victimised: Hashmat Habib, Rauf’s lawyer, said his client was being victimised because the Pakistani authorities had been forced to drop all charges against Rauf over the transatlantic flight plot. “In my estimate it’s an organised disappearance. They don’t want to hand him over. He’s an innocent man. He was fixed up and the government is now afraid that he would become an embarrassment if sent to the UK because they hyped up his involvement. He was not involved in terrorism,” he said.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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Link ||
[6 views]
Top|| File under: al-Qaeda
#1
He was fixed up and the government is now afraid that he would become an embarrassment
Hell, he posturing somewhere even as we speak. Dawg willing there's a tree Jinn gonna fall on his snappy serpe one fine morning under the uppazilla. Yes.
Posted by: Thomas Woof ||
12/24/2007 12:17 Comments ||
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LANDI KOTAL: Lashkar-e-Islam (LI) chief Mangal Bagh said on Saturday that antisocial elements and criminals had been expelled from the Khyber Agency. Mangal told a gathering at the outhouse of Haji Ayub Afridi and Malik Darya Khan Afridi that most political administration officials were “corrupt and Pakistani rulers were afraid of the US”. Mangal also visited Kuba Mosque where he met Maulana Hazar Nabi. He said people should support LI activists because authorities concerned could not protect the masses. Later, Mangal told reporters that he had told election candidates not to take out processions or hoist party flags on their homes. “The opinion of religious scholars should be sought regarding the participation of women in the balloting,” he added. He said that his LI would not support any particular candidate in the polls, adding that it would favour a person who would serve the people. He also criticised the Election Commission and candidates for not enlisting the residents of Zakha Khel Bazaar in voter lists.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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[6 views]
Top|| File under: Taliban
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: After the United States has spent more than $5 billion in a largely failed effort to bolster the Pakistani military effort against militants from Al Qaeda and the Taliban, some American officials now acknowledge that there were too few controls over how the money was spent, and that the strategy to improve the Pakistani military needs to be completely revamped.
In interviews in Islamabad and Washington, Bush administration and military officials said they believed that much of the American money was not making its way to frontline Pakistani units. Money has been diverted to help finance weapons systems designed to counter India, not Al Qaeda or the Taliban, the officials said, adding that the United States has paid tens of millions of dollars in inflated Pakistani reimbursement claims for fuel, ammunition and other costs.
"I personally believe there is exaggeration and inflation," said a senior American military official who has reviewed the program, referring to Pakistani requests for reimbursement. "Then, I point back to the United States and say we didn't have to give them money this way."
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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Link ||
[7 views]
Top|| File under: Govt of Pakistan
#1
But they fear that members of Congress will react to the troubled reimbursement program by slashing military aid to Pakistan.
#2
Money has been diverted to help finance weapons systems designed to counter India, not Al Qaeda or the Taliban, the officials said, adding that the United States has paid tens of millions of dollars in inflated Pakistani reimbursement claims for fuel, ammunition and other costs.
#3
In addition, Washington reimbursed Pakistan $55 million for helicopter operation and maintenance costs for an eight-month period in 2007, American officials said. The United States later found out that the army received only $25 million from the Pakistani government for operations and maintenance of their entire national helicopter fleet for the whole of 2007.
Well, gee whiz, I wonder where that extra 30 million bucks went? Oh, I'm sure it went to a good cause, or just got missplaced or...sumthin.
#5
We should just tell the pakiwaki foerign minister that we're done sending money. When they lose control of the situation, we'll use several multi-billion dollar Ohio class boats to solve the problem once and for all...
Posted by: M. Murcek ||
12/24/2007 21:07 Comments ||
Top||
AHMADABAD, India — Hindu nationalists won a crucial test of political support Sunday with a resounding victory in a state election, fought in the shadow of anti-Muslim riots that left more than 1,000 people dead in 2002.
The vote in Gujarat, in western India, was a personal victory for Narendra Modi, arguably India's most divisive politician, who was re-elected to the state's top job. Throughout the often bitter campaign, Modi cast the election as a referendum on his rule — a tenure best known for the riots, which began after a mysterious train fire killed 59 Hindu pilgrims. Many in India say Modi stood idly by as Hindu mobs butchered Muslims, who were blamed for the fire. The United States has refused to renew his visa because of the riots. "This vote is a positive vote to bring back the government," he told thousands of supporters on Sunday. "All the negative propaganda used in the campaign has been rejected by the people."
With persistent talk of early elections, analysts had predicted a close race between Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party, India's main opposition party, and the Congress party, which heads the federal government. Some in Congress had even hoped to pull off an upset and unseat the BJP. Instead, the BJP won 117 seats in the 182-seat state assembly in elections held in two phases earlier this month, according results announced Sunday by the election commission. Congress won 62 seats, and independents took 3.
Continued on Page 49
#2
At one point, Modi said that an innocent Muslim man shot by the police months earlier deserved to be killed because he was a terrorist.
No. This is what he said:
“Sohrabuddin, from whose possession large cache of AK 47 rifles were found, same Sohrabuddin whom police of four States were looking for, Sohrabuddin who attacks police, Sohrabuddin who maintains connections with Pakistan, who raises eyes on Gujarat, then what will my police do?”
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 5:59 Comments ||
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#3
innocent Muslim man
Innocent muslim indeed. The gangster Sohrabuddin Sheikh had multiple charges for murder and extortion.
Sorabhuddin was in and out of jails in Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh and allegedly became a dreaded underworld operative. His operations spread across four states. He had 15 police cases against him in Madhya Pradesh, 7 in Gujarat, 2 in Maharashtra and one Rajasthan.
Sorabhuddin allegedly confessed to the Madhya Pradesh that he was close to Dawood’s men. “At the time of the arms landing, Dawood was in Karachi and all the arms I transported from Ahmedabad belonged to Dawood Ibrahim. After this operation, I realised that I was important to both Chhota Dawood and Latif, Dawood Ibrahim's frontman in Gujarat,”
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 6:06 Comments ||
Top||
#4
Modi's opponents in the Congress party faced an uphill task.
They couldn't nail him on development. There is electricity and running water in nearly every village in Gujarat (unlike the rest of India). There are world class roads (unlike the rest of India). There is massive industrialization (unlike the rest of India).
They couldn't nail him on security. There have not been the bombings seen in other Indian states.
They couldn't beat him in fund-raising. All those Gujarati Patels (who own about half the motels in the US) just love the man.
They couldn't beat him on personality. Their candidates were uninspiring. Modi, who is from a 'backward' caste knows how to play the crowd. He is a natural campaigner.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 7:15 Comments ||
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#5
There was also a backlash against attempts by the Congress party to label the riots as 'genocide' and a 'state sponsored pogrom'.
In answer to Parliament questions, the Federal Home Minister (from the Congress Party) provided the figures of casualties during the Gujarat riots:
790 Muslims killed, 254 Hindus killed, 2,500
wounded in all and 223 missing. These include hundreds shot as police fired on rioters.
500 muslims killed in mob violence. 1000 dead total. Gujarat state has a population of 40 million. Rioting was confined to a few areas.
A state that has the organizational ability to provide electrity and running water to all of its citizens is accused of 'organizing mass murder'.
Strange that these modern day Nazis could only kill 500 people in their organized campaign.
Yet they have the ability to build the largest POL refinery in the world.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 7:37 Comments ||
Top||
#6
Indian Diamond Association in Israel welcomes Modi's win
Tel Aviv (PTI): The Indian Diamond Association in Israel (IDAI), comprising mostly of businessmen from Gujarat, has welcomed Narendra Modi's victory in Gujarat Assembly polls.
"We all wanted Modi to win and that's what has happened. We welcome his victory from the bottom of our heart and hope that he will be successful in his future plans," president of IDAI Ranjit Barmeja said.
About 30 Gujarati families engaged in diamond trade have been living in Israel since early 1980s, even before the establishment of diplomatic relations between India and Israel.
"When Modiji was here in Israel early this year we got an opportunity to meet him and what he said then about Gujarat and Diamond trade were positive signals of things to come. We all had expressed support for his victory", Barmeja added.
Trade in diamonds still constitutes about 60 per cent of the total bilateral trade between India and Israel which is almost touching the USD 3 billion mark this year.
In view of the opportunity, the State Bank of India opened a branch in the Israel Diamond Exchange (IDE) early this year.
The contribution of Gujarati diamond traders in making Israel one of the major centres of world diamond trade was recently recognised by the IDE when it decided to celebrate the festival of Diwali in its compound to mark a new business year for the Indian trading community.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 7:50 Comments ||
Top||
#7
Thanks, John Frum. I was hoping you could add some analysis for us.
#8
Modi did take too long (dallying for about a day) to call for Indian Federal troops. The Indian Defence Minister George Fernandes was reportedly frustrated watching these riots on TV with no phone call from Modi. The PM Vajpayee was reportedly quite pissed off with Modi over this.
Unlike the Police, the Indian Army is very cautious about firing on civilians (flag marches typically suppress rioters.. nobody wants to tackle the army) and many hundreds killed would have been saved if troops were deployed just a day earlier.
Perhaps Modi is a cold hearted SOB. Perhaps he was more worried about his image as a can-do leader.
Doesn't make him the monster the leftists in the Indian media portray him as.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 11:01 Comments ||
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12/24/07 India (International Christian Concern) – Shortly after campaigning for Hindu nationalistic party in the run up to the state legislature election in Gujarat state, Hindu extremists attacked tribal Christians, including a nun, to punish them for supporting the Congress Party.
The attack took place at around 8 p.m. on December 19 in Baidiya village in Vadodara districtÂ’s Kawant area while staffs and students of the Don Bosco School and Adivasi Shaishanik Arogya Kendra (Tribal Education and Health Centre) were staging a play on environmental issues for the villagers.
“This is not just an attack on a minority religion, but it is a part of a wider conspiracy to deny human rights and fundamental rights (religious and voting rights) to the Adivasis (tribal or aboriginal people), create division among them, and keep alive the divisive agenda in order to fish in the troubled waters,” Dr. John Dayal, president of the All India Catholic Union, told ICC.
Joseph Monty Rodrigues, the manager of the Don Bosco School described the attack, saying, “As the children were staging the play, one Rathwa Harsingbhai Mansingbhai rushed in and removed the curtain forcefully and hit one of the students of Class IX, Suresh Narubhai Rathwa, on the head.”
Later, another person, identified as Rathwa Pravinbhai, joined Mansingbhai to oppose the play.
Rodrigues gave a first person account in an email message, a copy of which is with ICC.
“They (the miscreants) said the Fathers and Sisters of Don Bosco were supporters of the Congress Party and therefore they must not step into this village. They insulted us and our religion and abused us for being Christians,” said Rodrigues.
At least 500 villagers were watching the play, which was organized by the Christians on an invitation by the village court.
The two miscreants also threatened to burn the Christians alive.
“Apprehending more tensions, we stopped the play at once and packed up our things,” added Rodrigues.
While the Christians were returning, some more people came to attack them.
“We left for Kawant via the Keladra-Pipalda road around 9:30 p.m. While passing from the Sim Segva stream near Keladra, a blue tempo came towards us to knock the motorbike being ridden by our staffs Madubhai Rathwa and Bharsingbhai Rathwa. But, somehow, they managed to escape. The tempo then tried to hit the jeep in which I was sitting.”
There were around 15 people carrying sticks and rods in the tempo. They stopped the vehicles and hit Madubhai Rathwa. Then they dragged the school students out of the other jeep and beat Fr. Damien Sladen, who was accompanying the children. Fr. Sladen was beaten till he fell unconscious.
The tempo was being driven by a person identified as Nangarsing Rathwa.
The miscreants also took away a laptop that was kept in the jeep besides vandalizing the vehicle.
Then the attackers came to the jeep in which Fr. Rodrigues, nun Sr. Manjula, and a few girl students were sitting.
The miscreants held Sr. ManjulaÂ’s neck and hand and tried to pull her out. Then they grabbed her scarf and shawl, and pulled her sari (an Indian wrap-around dress for women). They tore her blouse and banged her against the jeep twice and threw her down. They also grabbed her purse and mobile phone, and broke her silver chain.
The attackers also pulled out four girls from the jeep, but Sr. Manjula managed to rescue them and herself, and ran away. In the meantime, even Fr. Rodrigues could escape driving the jeep away.
“I went to the Kawant police station at 11:30 pm and informed the police, who came along with me to the place of the incident, where we found Fr. Damien injured and four girls, and also Sr. Manjula. All of them were crying,” aid Fr. Rodrigues.
The victims were admitted to a hospital.
The police did register a complaint against the attackers, but with initial reluctance.
In the meanwhile, a Hindu extremist sage, Jagat Guru Acharya Narendra Maharaj, led the alleged “reconversion” of around 2,000 tribal (aboriginal) Christians in a function on December 17 in Gujarat state’s Tapi district.
According to The Indian Express Newspaper, the function took place at the Shivaji Grounds area.
The “converts” took an oath and admitted affidavits saying they would not convert to Christianity ever again in the future, said the newspaper.
“Many of the tribal men also cut off their hair and took oaths, while all of them gave thumb impressions on the affidavits saying they have willingly returned to the folds of the Hindu religion,” added the daily.
He opposes the uniform civil code mandated by the constitution of India.
Religious minorities, mainly Muslims and Christians, have separate "personal laws" pertaining to marriage, divorce and succession according to their respective religious tenets.
What this basically means is that Muslim women don't get alimony and can be triple talaqed.
I don't know any country (besides India) where Catholics don't have to follow the national laws regarding property inheritance, divorce etc.
I can't fathom why Dayal campaigns so hard against having one law to govern all citizens.
Dayal seems to make common cause with Islamists, enviro-nuts and leftists.
Not a good place to be if you want people to take you seriously.
Modi is also hated because of his support for the Narmada dam (which has allowed drinking water to flow to cities and towns all over Gujarat).
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 12:14 Comments ||
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#11
Thanks JF. Sometimes more is better.
Posted by: Thomas Woof ||
12/24/2007 12:20 Comments ||
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#12
Then there is the peculiar opposition to Dayal (praising the Aztec culture and other weirdness)...
Don't know what to make of Dayal's opponents either...
Letter to Dr John Dayal
Member: National Integration Council, Government of India, in response to the letter he wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh
Dear John Dayal,
I am a westerner and a born Christian. I was mainly brought up in catholic schools, my uncle, Father Guy Gautier, a gem of a man, was the parish head of the beautiful Saint Jean de Montmartre church in Paris ; my father, Jacques Gautier, a famous artist in France, and a truly good person if there ever was one, was a fervent catholic all his life, went to church nearly every day and lived by his Christian values. There are certain concepts in Christianity I am proud of: charity for others, the equality of social systems in many western countries, ChristÂ’s message of love and compassionÂ…
Yet, when I read your letter to the Prime Minister, Shri Manmohan Singh, Ă propos the inaugural meeting of the National Integration Council, I was a little uneasy. First, you seem to assume that you are speaking for the entire Christian community in India. But I know many Christians in this country, and they never voice the grievances you so loudly proclaim. In fact, I have found that most Christians in India are not only happy to live in this country of traditional tolerance, but that they are also different from many Christians in the world : more multicultural and ecumenist in spirit, maybe.
Then, you speak of the marginalized Dalits. I agree that there are still unforgivable atrocities committed against Dalits, although very often they are done by backward castes themselves. I remember during the Tsunami in Pondichery, how the Vanniars, an OBC caste, stopped the Dalit from a coastal hamlet, to cross their part of the village to bury their dead, as the Dalits’ cremation ground had been submerged. At the same time, my 30 years in India have taught me that nowhere in the world has there been so much effort to rectify a wrong, from 1947 onwards. This resulted in a Dalit, K.R. Narayanan, who just died, born in a poor village of Kerala, to become President of India, one of the highest posts in this nation. Has a black man ever been President of the US ? Reservations for Dalits, have made it possible for them to access education and jobs, regardless of their merits – and this is a unique feature of India today.
You continue by saying that “The agenda draftsmen of papers for NIC seem to believe that forcible and fraudulent conversions (to Christianity) are the main cause of civil unrest in tribal and other rural areas”. And you retort that « this is a malicious myth propagated by obscurantist and fundamentalist - and often violent - political groups », meaning Hindu groups, of course.
I have to disagree with you on two points: One, I have seen with my own eyes how conversions in India are not only highly unethical, that is using unethical means of conversion, but also that they threaten a whole way of life, erasing centuries of tradition, customs, wisdom, teaching people to despise their own religion and look westwards to a culture which is alien to them, with disastrous results. Look what happened to countries like HawaĂŻ, or to the extraordinary Aztec culture in South America, after Portuguese and Spanish missionaries took over ! Look how the biggest drug problems in India are found in the North East, or how Third World countries which have been totally Christianized, have lost all moorings and bearing and are drifting away without nationalism and self-pride.
Secondly, I think that people like you show very little gratefulness to that Hindu ethos, which has seeped into Indian Christian consciousness. It is because of that Hindu ethos, which accepts that God may manifest Himself at different times in different names, that Christians were welcomed in India in the first century – indeed the Syrian Christians of Kerala constituted the first Christian community in the world. It is because of this inbred tolerance in Hinduism that Christianity and many other persecuted minorities in the world, flourished and practiced their religion in peace in India throughout the centuries. But how do Christians thank the Hindus ? When the Jesuits arrived in India with Vasco de Gama, they committed terrible persecutions, particularly in Goa, crucifying Brahmins, marrying forcibly local girls to Portuguese soldiers, razing temples to build churches and splitting the Kerala Christian community in two. And today, people like you continue ranting against Hindus and promoting unethical conversions, using the massive power of the dollars donated by ignorant Westerners, who do not know that their money is used to lure innocent tribals and Dalits, who still possess that all encompassing acceptance of all Gods. towards another religion.
Furthermore, you use false statistics, saying for instance that nuns have been raped. You no doubt allude to the Jabhua rape case, when courts have shown that these nuns were not raped by Hindus, but by Christians tribals. I know, I went there and interviewed these innocent souls. And who has been hijacking the educational system in India ? Not the Hindus, as you accuse, but the Christians, who control much of the higher education in India and by subtle and not so subtle means, poison the minds of the students, teaching them to look down on their own culture and look up to whatever is western - even if it has already failed in the West. In how many schools and hospitals in India today, the Bible is read at the beginning of each day, each session ? Would you approve of the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of 850 millions Hindus being read in Christian schools in the West to Christian students and nurses ?
Finally, when you say: “God bless you, you Government, and God bless India », which God are you talking about ? Is it Jesus Christ ? But the message of Christ was one of Love, of respecting other’s cultures and creed - not of utilizing devious and unethical means for converting people. It is false to say that Jesus is the only “true” God. As Hindus rightly believe, the Divine has manifested Himself throughout the ages under different names and identities, whether it is Christ, Buddha, Krishna or Mohamed. Let this be the motto of the National Integration Council of India.
François Gautier
François Gautier is a French journalist and writer, who was for eight years the political correspondent in India and South Asia for " Le Figaro " and worked for Ouest-France, the largest circulation daily in France and LCI, France's 24 hour TV news channel.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 12:22 Comments ||
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#13
Dayal is probably reacting towards the criticism leveled at him by the Hindu right by associating with the Islamists, environmentalists, leftists and other anti-establishment figures.
Problem is we've seen where the "radical leftist priest in the rural area" leads.. and it is not pleasant.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 12:31 Comments ||
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#14
Furthermore, you use false statistics, saying for instance that nuns have been raped. You no doubt allude to the Jabhua rape case, when courts have shown that these nuns were not raped by Hindus, but by Christians tribals. I know, I went there and interviewed these innocent souls. And who has been hijacking the educational system in India ? Not the Hindus, as you accuse, but the Christians, who control much of the higher education in India and by subtle and not so subtle means, poison the minds of the students, teaching them to look down on their own culture and look up to whatever is western - even if it has already failed in the West. In how many schools and hospitals in India today, the Bible is read at the beginning of each day, each session ? Would you approve of the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of 850 millions Hindus being read in Christian schools in the West to Christian students and nurses ?
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 12:42 Comments ||
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#16
This is the best part...
Look what happened to countries like HawaĂŻ, or to the extraordinary Aztec culture in South America, after Portuguese and Spanish missionaries took over !
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 12:44 Comments ||
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#17
On the other side, Dayal blamed Hindu activists for a series of bombings against churches (actually done by the Pakistan-based Deendar Anjuman).
He seems in denial about the Islamists...
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 13:05 Comments ||
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#18
B Raman weighs in....
The pathological dislike -- even hatred -- that some of our journalists -- particularly in the electronic media -- have for Modi could be seen or sensed as one watched the television coverage of the counting of votes on December 23.
Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many television anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress was in for a drubbing.
The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A star lady anchor could not help remarking: 'Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries.' Some consolation!
Instead of spending their time searching for abusive expressions in the dictionary and in their copy-book of such expressions, if these self-styled secularists had only visited the Web sites, discussion groups and blogspots of members of the Hindu community not only in India, but also in other countries of the world -- particularly in the US -- they would have noticed something, which might have given them cause for introspection.
They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu Diaspora spread across the world. The support for him is not confined only to the Gujarati-speaking Hindus of the world. It is spread right across the Hindu spectrum -- whatever be the language or ethnicity or place of origin of the Hindus concerned.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 14:56 Comments ||
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#19
What is it they see in him?
His simple and austere living of the kind associated with the late Kamaraj of Tamil Nadu, but not seen in the leaders of today?
His reputation as an incorruptible politician, the likes of which is not found anywhere in India, not even in his own party?
His style of development-oriented governance, which even his detractors do not hesitate to praise?
The fruits of his policy, which Gujarat and its people are already enjoying?
His tough stance on terrorism?
His lucid-thinking on matters concerning our national security?
His defiance in the face of the greatest campaign of demonisation mounted against him, the likes of which only Indira Gandhi had faced from her political opponents and sections of the media in the 1970s?
All these are factors, which influence their favourable perception of him, and which have already been highlighted and analysed in the articles on his impressive election victory.
But there is one factor, which is more important than these and which has not found mention in the analyses.
That is, for large sections of the Hindus -- young and old, even more among the young than among the old -- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus.
They feel that he removed from their minds long habits of defensiveness as Hindus carefully nurtured by the self-styled secularists.
As if to proclaim one's Hindu identity and to assert one's rights as Hindus in their own homeland in which they are in a vast majority (80 per cent of the population) is to be communal, is to become an ugly Indian.
For these self-styled secularists, a pretty Indian is a Hindu, who is all the time on the defensive, fights shy of proclaiming his Hindu personality and asserting his rights as a member of the majority community.
These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty.
For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him.
It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 14:57 Comments ||
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#20
The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A star lady anchor could not help remarking: 'Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries.' Some consolation!
Finally, the US State Dept. and I agree on something.
#21
Thanks John. It's nice to get analysis not filtered and distorted by the Leftist groupthink of the media. India seems to have the same problem with media distortion and agenda peddling we do in the West.
#22
Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many television anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress was in for a drubbing.
Just the same that for European anchors during the 2004 US election.
Hopefully they will learn patience and flex their political muscles in a constructive manner.
The rise of armed Sunni groups — who now battle al-Qaida in Iraq instead of fighting U.S. troops — is widely seen as a major reason for a drop in violence across the country.
But bringing these fighters into the fold of Iraq's security forces — and sparking a political reconciliation that will allow more Sunnis to participate in the governing process — is something the Shiite-dominated government is not adequately addressing, analysts say.
Iraqi officials report the number of fighters in the so-called "awakening" councils as about 70,000 and rapidly growing. They expect the number of Sunni fighters in Baghdad alone to grow to 45,000 next year — a fourfold increase from present figures.
By comparison, the Shiite dominated army and police make up the majority of the 440,000 Iraqi security forces.
Shiite government officials have in recent weeks cautiously praised the fighters for helping reduce violence. But laced into the comments were warnings that represent Shiites' biggest fear: that these groups will become an uncontrollable force and eventually use their guns to escalate a sectarian war that has largely divided Iraq into blocs along religious lines.
"The awakening movement was a response to al-Qaida in Iraq trying to prevent Sunnis from entering the political process," Defense Minister Abdul-Qader al-Obeidi, himself a Sunni Arab, said at a news conference on Saturday.
"The Sunnis' response was an uprising, represented by the awakening groups. Now that al-Qaida has largely been marginalized in certain areas, Sunnis are entering the political arena," al-Obeidi said. "We will see a definite change soon because there is nobody now standing between them and the rest of the Iraqi people."
Sunnis make up about 20 percent of Iraq's population. Under Saddam Hussein — and during the Ottoman and British rule of Iraq — they were the dominant political entity. But since Hussein's fall, Sunnis have been politically fractured.
Now that the awakening movement is being credited tamping down violence, the tribal sheiks directing the fighters are demanding more of a political voice. If they do not get it, they may turn their guns back on U.S. and Iraqi forces, something American officials are keenly aware of.
U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker told journalists Sunday in Baghdad that the awakening was never envisioned as an independent force.
"We've always felt that they have to link up to the government of Iraq," he said. "That's got to happen or nothing good is coming down the line."
Crocker also noted that violence has fallen in Iraq because of what he said appeared to be a conscious decision by Iran's leaders to halt support of Shiite militias.
"There have been some signs, indicators that Iran is using some influence to bring down violence," he said. "How lasting a phenomenon that will be and how Iran defines its role in 2008 will be important to Iraq's long-term future."
Iraq's government has said it wants to regularize about 25 percent of the Sunni fighters into its security forces, but only 5 percent of the fighters have been absorbed into the force so far. The rest will be given vocational training.
Deepening the uncertainty is the refusal of Iraqi officials to give anything but scant details about what this job training would consist of. Nor do they adequately address the problem of finding a job for these trained gunmen. Crocker said Iraq is matching $155 million that the U.S. has set aside for "employment creation" funds, but that a strategy for carrying it out was still being planned.
In December, the unemployment rate for Iraq's work force was 17.6 percent and underemployment stood at 38.1 percent, according to Iraq's Central Statistical Organization. Experts suggest those rates are much higher, given the difficulty of collecting data.
Even if the government meets its 25-percent absorption target, 75 percent of the irregulars will likely face unemployment, a situation analysts say could push them back into the fight against U.S. and Iraqi forces.
Deborah D. Avant, director of international studies at the University of California-Irvine and author of the book "The Market for Force: The Consequences of Privatizing Security," said there are ominous similarities between the awakening councils and armed groups in past conflicts that were used for short-term military gains but ended up being roadblocks for state building.
The awakening groups represent a deadly force that authorities probably cannot control, which "isn't a good thing for the long-term prospects of a central government in Iraq," Avant said.
"I think it is just one more way in which the U.S. is inhibiting the consolidation of a central state in Iraq," Avant said of the U.S. embrace of the awakening groups. "To the degree that the U.S. is trying to build a state — which it says it is trying to do — then these types of efforts are counterproductive."
Anthony Cordesman, with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said it is essential the Iraqi government utilize the awakening groups in capacities outside the military.
"You've got to move a lot of these young men back into the economy because not everybody under 25 in Iraq can be a policeman."
Cordesman said the Shiite government must find a way to include the Sunni fighters — and the Sunni community at large — in the political process. But it does not have to represent an immediate and sweeping forgiveness on both sides for the blood spilled since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.
"Political accommodation is not reconciliation," he said. "It is whether the factions in Iraq can learn to live with each other."
#2
I can see the political groups in Iraq working together as violence drops. More is to be gained by working together rather than killing each other.
As for our political parties, IMHO the last time the parties and the US was this nasty and divisive was 1858. And we know what happened three years later.
BAGHDAD - The spiritual leader of IraqÂ’s Catholics, elevated to the rank of cardinal last month, called on US forces to free Saddam HusseinÂ’s ailing former deputy prime minister Tareq Aziz if there was no evidence against him.
With respect, your Eminence, but 'no'.
Aziz is a Chaldean Christian, IraqÂ’s biggest Christian group, and his presence in SaddamÂ’s government was often held up as evidence of the former Iraqi leaderÂ’s religious tolerance. Aziz is now in US custody and is reported to be in poor health, suffering from diabetes. He is being held without charge and his family has repeatedly called for his release.
In an interview with Reuters on the eve of Christmas, Emmanuel III Delly, the Chaldean patriarch of Baghdad, also called for religious freedom in Muslim Iraq, where many Christians have been kidnapped, killed or forced to flee. ‘We have no freedom of religion in Iraq but hopefully that will become the case one day because the Lord created us free and everyone should have freedom of religion,’ he said.
‘In terms of Tareq Aziz, who has worked so long for Iraq and I am sure still wants good things for Iraq, we have to demand the release of all those who were captured and which have no evidence against them ... as soon as possible,’ Delly said. Delly, a critic of the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, said he had tried to visit Aziz, but his request had been turned down.
Iraqi prosecutors say Aziz could face charges in connection with the crushing of the Shia Muslim uprising after the 1991 Gulf War in which tens of thousands died.
Aziz was one of Saddam's closest henchmen. The specific charges are less important. Executing him for being a henchman is sufficient.
At the Nov. 25 ceremony at the Vatican creating Delly, 80, a cardinal, Pope Benedict said the IraqiÂ’s elevation was intended to express the Catholic ChurchÂ’s solidarity with Christians in Iraq. In June the pontiff said he was concerned about the exodus of Christians from the troubled country.
Christians make up about 3 percent of IraqÂ’s 27 million people, according to the US State DepartmentÂ’s latest report on international religious freedom. According to a 1987 census there were 1.4 million Christians living in Iraq, but now there may be fewer than 1 million. A number of Christian clergy have been kidnapped or killed in Iraq, churches bombed or forced to take down their crosses and Christians forced to flee their homes.
At his guarded compound in western Baghdad, Delly, wearing his cardinal’s red robes and a black hat, preached brotherly love in a land where sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia Muslims has killed tens of thousands. ‘Love between all brothers is present, but they must love each other more and more, they need to work together in one mind and one heart for the prosperity of Iraq,’ he said, sitting next to a colourfully decorated Christmas tree.
Delly said all Iraqis had suffered equally in the sectarian violence that has ravaged the country, toning down previous criticism of Iraq’s Shia Islamist leaders, whom he accused in May of staying silent while Christians were persecuted. ‘There are absolutely no violations against Christians because they are Christians. This is something that is against Iraq and Iraqis. There are many Christians who were forced to flee Iraq but an even greater number of our Muslim brothers too.’
He said five Christian churches in the southern Baghdad district of Doura, a Sunni militant stronghold, were still closed. Christians there were told to convert, flee or be killed, the US State Department report said. ‘God willing, (the Christians) will return,’ Delly said.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
Aziz is no Christian. Burn him
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/24/2007 4:26 Comments ||
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#2
Anything other than hanging Aziz would be perceived as preferrential treatment because he is a christian, a very bad move. Besides, he deserves it.
#4
Like the Mafia, Saddam didn't let anyone close to him unless the guy's hands were bloody. Frequently you had to kill someone very close to you to prove your allegiance to Saddam.
Just the fact that he was in the cabinet is proof of murder.
Al
Posted by: Frozen Al ||
12/24/2007 10:47 Comments ||
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#5
Lots and lots of people, even some here, have been critical about my stance that Christians in Saddam's Iraq were part and parcel of his criminal gang. Here's something that seems to support my contention that much of what the very active Christian propaganda machine complains about is just retaliation for past crimes.
All out nuclear war between Israel and Iran: a doomsday scenario that we all fear deeply. A new study compiled by the US Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), headed by former Pentagon analyst Anthony H. Cordesman, explored just such a nightmare scenario, noting that it could lead to the death of between 16- 28 million Iranian civilians, and 200-800 thousand Israelis.
This hypothetical, research-oriented study also explored other contingencies for unconventional warfare in our region, noting the tactics that various countries could potentially employ in such instances.
As pertains to nuclear warfare, the study found that an Israeli nuclear scrimmage with Iran would most likely last for about three weeks. Aside from the aforementioned direct casualties, the study could not determine how many additional long-term casualties would arise from fallout and radiation in the weeks and months following such an attack.
One essential requirement for nuclear confrontation in our region, according to the study, is allowing IranÂ’s nuclear program to develop, unhindered by a pre-emptive strike by either Israel or the United States. If US or Israeli preemption does not occur, the study found, Iran could very well have 30 nuclear warheads available for warfare between 2010-2020. Israel, by comparison, currently has 200 nuclear war heads with both air and sea launch capabilities, according to the study.
Given certain conditions, Israel could potentially survive such a nuclear scenario, the study found. Iran, on the other hand, would be completely and utterly obliterated. “Iranian recovery is not possible in the normal sense of term, though Israeli recovery is theoretically possible in population and economic terms,” wrote Cordesman, who compiled this study entitled “Iran, Israel, and Nuclear War”.
The bottom line, according to this study, is that Israel quite simply has more potent and effective bombs. Israel currently has a 1 megaton (mt) nuclear bomb, whereas Iran does not yet have the ability to develop a bomb with more than 100 kilotons of power. What this means, in essence, is that the Israeli bomb can lead to three times as many casualties as its Iranian counterpart (chiefly due to third-degree burns), and has an “area of extreme lethality” (the range within which a nuclear bomb is fatal) ten-times as great.
Which Israeli cities are most likely to be targeted by Iran? Tel-Aviv and central Israel (all the way down to Ashdod) are the most likely targets, as is Haifa. Israel, conversely, has more than 10 Iranian cities on its “hit list” including Tehran, Tabriz, Isfahan, Qazvin, Shiraz, Yazd, Kerman, Qom, Ahvaz, and Kermanshah.
Cordseman also noted that Iran would have lower fission yields, and less accurate force into cluster targeting on Israel’s two largest urban complexes, and that the Iranian side would also most likely be thwarted by Israel’s missile defense systems. Notable among these is the “Arrow 2” anti-ballistic missile which could most potentially shoot down most nuclear missiles launched by Iran.
Furthermore, Israel could strike Iran with far grater accuracy and precision, hitting its cities with deadly aim utilizing both its own satellites, as well as those of the United States.
The study also examined what would occur if Syria would join the Israeli-Iranian nuclear fray. Syria, Cordesman estimated, could kill an additional 800 thousand Israelis with missiles armed with chemical or biological warheads. The Syrian side, however, could suffer up to 18 million casualties should Israel respond with a nuclear strike.
If Egypt should join its Arab neighbors in battle, the study finds, Israel would most likely respond with a nuclear strike at Cairo and other major cities, as well as by destroying the Aswan dam. CSIS is a collective of fruitcakes and wannabees, to include Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, draft-dodging Carter SecDef Harold Brown, and Richard Armitage.
#2
They may be, but this looks like a pretty well thought out scenario. Although, if this view comes to pass, we can pretty much rule out letting other countries get the bomb after. Too much death and countries security is at stake.
#4
CSIS is a collective of fruitcakes and wannabees, to include Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, draft-dodging Carter SecDef Harold Brown, and Richard Armitage.
All that aside, just what in the groups study and their conclusions do you dispute?
#8
Very unlikely Mr. President, not with the russky defenses alerted. Why it take a miracle and a damn good pilot. He'd have to come in way, way low, thru the passes. Yeah. Low. Way low. BRING THAT BABY BARRELING RIGHT DOWN THE PIPE. Could he make it? HELL YEAH!
/Doc. Kahn mention
Posted by: Thomas Woof ||
12/24/2007 12:08 Comments ||
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#9
Skunky Elmomosh5044: To start with, I wouldn't even call this a "political" *analysis*, much less a military one. I would call it "wishful thinking" on the part of CSIS.
If motivated, a dozen Rantburgers could produce a far superior tactical military analysis on this scenario, and footnote every bit of it with open source information.
To start with, the US is highly motivated that Israel doesn't suffer a scratch, as we demonstrated by neutralizing the SCUD threat in Gulf War I. This is because the Israelis have made it abundantly clear they will nuke not just Iran, but much of the Muslim world, if they were forced to retaliate.
And the US does not want a middle sized nuclear exchange taking place, even on the other side of the planet. And yes, we would receive substantial amounts of fallout from such an exchange, courtesy of the jet stream.
For this reason and also to protect our own forces, George Bush has ordered a dense, multi-layered missile defense shield to surround Iran. Between our PAC-3, Patriot, THAAD and Israel's ARROW missile defenses, the odds of a successful penetration by Iran are small.
And while all of this is already in place, we are continuing to improve these defenses with other anti-missile systems.
So the entire axiom of the "study" is invalid. If a nuclear war happened at all, it would have to be conducted solely by Israel against Iran. If it remained conventional, even then Iran has only one effective weapon it could use against Israel directly, its missiles.
They did consider a proxy fight with chemical weapons by Hezbollah against Israel. But the Israelis have chemical defensive equipment, whereas Hezbollah does not. And Syria would suffer nuclear retaliation if it fired chemical weapons from its territory, and it knows it.
It shouldn't be startling that Rantburgers might know more about the situation that these CSIS luminaries, because Rantburgers both tend to be more objective and knowledgeable, and even when these CSIS characters were in power, they were not particularly effective in their jobs.
#10
math is what you make of it...assuming these people are correct, in the wake of such a war Iran would "only" have FIFTY MILLION people left (give or take...they have 66 million now).
Israel would have about 5 million...leaving them outnumbered 10:1.
Plus, Israel is a VERY narrow country, and thus the whole country would likely be uninhabitable. Iran is a HUGE country...and there would be lots of places for people to still live.
Imanutjob LIKES this math...and is crazy enough to opt for it!
#11
Plus, I would love to see OldSpook's analysis of it. I don't know if he specializes in weapon delivery systems, but he knows about interceptions IIRC.
Long story short, Iran would get pounded back into the stone age along with Syria if they tried anything like this.
#12
The Rantburg Center for Strategic Studies (RCSS) is open for business. Informed opinion. Clear writing. Open documentation. Outstanding snark. Timely service. Reasonable rates. E-mail us.
AoS
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 14:21 Comments ||
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#13
The CSIS study may well be meant for the Mad Mullahs™. It certainly doesn't tell Rantburg readers anything new, but it does lay out one theoretical outcome of a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran.
I too think the Israelis would get the better of such an exchange. However, the Israelis value the lives of their 800,000 citizens far more than the Mullahs value the lives of their 20 million to be killed citizens. Therefore, while the Israelis would end up in a better strategic position, they would suffer more.
That of course is the essential difference between Israel and Iran.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/24/2007 14:24 Comments ||
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#14
Israel currently has a 1 megaton (mt) nuclear bomb, whereas Iran does not yet have the ability to develop a bomb with more than 100 kilotons of power.
A military analyst wrote this nonsense?
Firstly, the only inside info in the public domain is from the traitor Mordecai Vanunu. His photos show a model of what appears to be a Sloika of possible yield 40kT. There is no evidence that Israel has true two stage thermonuclear weapons.
And developing H-bombs isn't simple. They need to be tested. Assuming the South Atlantic Vela incident was a test, that would be a fission weapon.
Even if Israel had a 1MT weapon, it has no missile with the throw weight to deliver it.
And Iran with a 100 kiloton weapon? That is thermonuclear yield (if you want something deliverable).. a warhead like that carried on the British version of Trident... far beyond Iranian capabilities.
Secondly, there is the 2/3 power scaling law. You don't need MT warheads (unless your missiles are Chinese and inaccurate as hell)
The US replaced the single 1.2Mt warhead on the Minuteman-II missile with the Minuteman-III and its three 170kt warheads. They provided 80% as much destructive power as the single warhead.
Posted by: john frum ||
12/24/2007 15:27 Comments ||
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#15
I'll second what Moose said, and add,
Those Iranian dead would disproportionately ethnic Persians. Other ethnic groups like the Kurds would come out it relatively unscathed (the Israelis know who their enemy is).
The Persian Empire would cease to exist. Persia would become a rump state much like Austria after WW1, although in a more dangerous neighbourhood. It would either become an international protectorate or a protectorate of more powerful neighbouring states, say an expanded Kurdistan (or Azerbaijan) and/or Iraq. Now wouldn't that be a nice historical irony?
#16
Even if Israel had a 1MT weapon, it has no missile with the throw weight to deliver it.
True. But F-16Iz would do the trick.
Posted by: Thomas Woof ||
12/24/2007 16:38 Comments ||
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#17
This study barely takes into account the off-the-scale collateral damage resulting from such a nightmarish scenario. What would the areas surrounding the blast radii be like after this horrific outcome came to pass?
We would see shattered economies, contagions of cholera and other diseases, criminal gangs and militias thrive on the fringes of uninhabitable areas.
No. This outcome is intolerable. Iran can not be trusted to act rationally while controlling a Pandora's Box of armaments while it is led by Islamofascist maniacs.
#19
g(r)omgoru: As far as the Israelis were concerned, the US efforts were enough so that they didn't feel the need to retaliate with nuclear weapons. Saddam could have changed that by ordering chemical weapons use, but he didn't.
In turn, because the Israelis did nothing, the Arabs stayed with the coalition.
So in that the Scuds didn't accomplish their mission, they were neutralized.
The US, however, learned how very difficult it can be to interdict missiles with air power. Hopefully we have remembered that lesson when it comes to Iran.
#20
The 1 MT is a city killer, THats a big hammer, wiht long term consequences for the target region.
Think Teheran ceasing to exist - and being contaminated for thousands of years.
Or Mecca.
Syria would cease to exist were it to enter such a war.
As for the scenario, I find them to be implausible, mainly for the depending on a 3 week war. The mad Islamists know they have to throw everything into one shot, because the Israelis would counterforce very quickly, and their anti-missle systems give them some defense (probably overrated in a saturation attack).
One thing to consider: the Israeli military, unfettered by the destruction of the civil leadership, would strike deep hard and quickly with a number of options, including nuclear. Israeli restraint (overbearing lawyers screwing with military ability to order various actions) would disappear. Never Again is a powerful motivator, be it ovens in Dachau, or thermonuclear flames.
The only Islamic nations left unscathed in the region would be Lebanon, Egypt, the gulf states (who are hardly Islmic in nature nor a threat) and Iraq (thanks to the US reconstruction of that nation). Yes, I beleive the House of Saud (and the wahhabists) would be taken down as the source of the bankroll that cause the destruction of Israel (Jiddah ceases to exist). The oil fields would be unaffected (and woudl need to be secured, likely by the Gulf States supported by the US, French and Brits).
The major problem that CSIS has is that they depend on the rationaility of Mullahs and madmen like Amadhi-nejad. They simply break the MAD theory of rational actors. The Russians ultimately loved their children. The Islamists wrap theirs in explosives and send them out to kill themselves and the infidels.
Amplify that with Iranian Shia apocalyptic fundamentalism and a messiah fixation. That gives you a national leadership who do not mind sacrificing their entire population to bring the Madhi into being. Furthermore they would consider their dead to be "martyrs" providing them with instant salvation.
I am not at liberty to really discuss a lot of the technical issues without more forethought than I am willing to apply at the moment.
Sum: This article is a rather transparent attempt to play domestic politics.
It is a foolish attempt, by idiots, to apply MAD to madmen.
#3
Back in the 80's I worked with a "palestinian" who had one of those maps. I said: "so...Palestine... Is that what we're calling Israel now?"
needless to say, we didn't get along
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/24/2007 7:34 Comments ||
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#4
Closer to home, you'll soon be seeing Mexican maps including my home state of Arizona. Maps are excellent political indoctrination weapons...first raised to an artform by (dare I say it) the Nazis...
Defense Minister Ehud Barak had a mixed message for Sderot residents on Sunday: The Iron Dome defense system will protect Israel from short-range missiles like the Kassam rockets, but it will take some 30 months for it to be fully operational. The security cabinet on Sunday authorized NIS 811 million for the system, which was selected in February by then-defense minister Amir Peretz as Israel's anti-Katyusha and anti-Kassam rocket defense system.
The system is designed to intercept Kassam and Katyusha rockets with a small kinetic rocket interceptor. The Jerusalem Post reported last week that the approximately NIS 160m., which was initially given to Rafael (Armaments Development Authority) for the system's development, had run out, and an additional NIS 320m. was needed by the end of the month for development to continue. That system will become the base layer of a four-tier overlapping system. The second tier is comprised of Patriot missile batteries, which are already in place. The third tier is the vaunted Arrow system. The fourth tier, the Arrow 2, is currently under development. The goal of the developers is to design a system that could target cruise missiles even farther out than the Arrow system does now.
Together these would provide Israel with a shield that Barak has said would protect it from about 90 percent of short- to long-range rockets. None of the systems will be able to stop mortar shells, as they are too small and their flight time too short to be intercepted.
Even as the security cabinet was talking about how to protect the communities and strategic installations near the Gaza Strip, five Kassams were fired into Israel on Sunday. One of them struck the Carlsberg Beer plant in Ashkelon's industrial zone. The rocket hit an empty warehouse and no one was wounded. Two other rockets landed in open fields in the western Negev. One landed near a building in Sderot and failed to explode, and another landed near a kibbutz.
The security cabinet, which met only to authorize funding for the Iron Dome project, met directly after the weekly cabinet meeting, during which Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made clear that Israel had no interest in entering into any type of truce talks with Hamas. "Counterterrorist operations will continue as they have for months," Olmert said. "There is no other way to describe what is happening in the Gaza Strip except as a true war between the IDF and terrorist elements. This war will continue even as we take strict care, as we have up to now, to avoid a humanitarian crisis that could harm civilians who are not involved in terrorism."
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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#1
that could harm civilians who are not involved in terrorism
#5
I would be all for a laser based system that could track and destroy small to medium rockets with a quick recharge time and could attack 6-10 targets at once. That would pretty much end the Kassam threat. Of course, leveling 1 square KM around the launch point within 30 seconds of the Kassam launch would end the threat nicely too.
#6
Stupid to waste a interceptor that costs 1000 times the incoming rocket. The proper response is a massive rocket barrage on a target of choice and use bulldozers to scrape the ground to bedrock.
Posted by: ed ||
12/24/2007 11:11 Comments ||
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Responding to criticism over the prolonged captivity of kidnapped IDF soldier Cpl. Gilad Schalit, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said on Sunday that the intelligence community was not at fault. "I suggest that we keep this kind of talk to a minimum," Barak told ministers during the weekly cabinet meeting. "There is no intelligence failure."
"Yes, there isn't enough intelligence to bring [Schalit] home, but we are continuing to act decisively for his return," the defense minister continued. "The more we keep this talk to a minimum, the better it will be."
On Saturday, Minister-without-Portfolio and former head of the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) Ami Ayalon criticized the intelligence community regarding the lack of information on the whereabouts of Schalit.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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The time is not right for Israel to agree to a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip, Israeli officials said Saturday amid reports that senior Hamas leadership was interests in an immediate hudna.
President Shimon Peres joined Security Cabinet Ministers Ze'ev Boim (Kadima) and Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) in demanding that Hamas halt all rocket attacks and provide real intelligence on kidnapped soldier Gilad Schalit, before Israel accepts Hamas's offer.
Over the weekend, reports surfaced that Hamas had proposed a temporary cease-fire with Israel. The proposal was reportedly relayed through Egyptian mediators and has not been confirmed by any Hamas officials. "Once the incessant rocket attacks stop, we might be inclined to negotiate with [Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh]," said Peres. "Negotiations with Hamas will only take place once they meet the three conditions set by the Quartet [UN, Britain, Russia and the US]: That is cessation of Kassam fire, official recognition of Israel's right to exist, and abiding by existing peace accords."
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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*I'm* not so sure that an envoy from Al-Azhar couldn't be a bomb plotter, but I bet the Pinoys will be salaaming like crazy real soon...
The mistake wasn't about his involvement in the plot, just that they arrested him.
Failed to fall on his scimitar, did he?
An Egyptian man held in the Philippines for allegedly plotting a Christmas bomb attack is an envoy of Sunni Islam's highest seat of learning who was arrested by mistake, the insitution's grand imam said on Sunday.
"The envoys of Al-Azhar abroad are chosen according to strict criteria to encourage moderation in Islam and the renunciation of violence and terrorism," he added. The religious affairs ministry issued a statement saying that Sheikh Mussa was being well treated but that there were contacts at the highest level between the two governments to try to secure his release. "Sheikh Mussa is a man of faith who represents a prestigious religious institution," the ministry said.
"There are 29 Al-Azhar envoys in the Philippines teaching Arabic language and Islamic religion in accordance with an agreement between Cairo and Manila," he added.
Mussa, identified by Philippine police as Mohamad Sayed, was arrested during a raid on a flat in the Majad Islamic School in the southern city of Cotabato. An explosive device fashioned from a 60-millimetre mortar round and ball bearings attached to a timing device were recovered from his room.
Mussa, identified by Philippine police as Mohamad Sayed, was arrested during a raid on a flat in the Majad Islamic School in the southern city of Cotabato. An explosive device fashioned from a 60-millimetre mortar round and ball bearings attached to a timing device were recovered from his room. Philippine police said the Egyptian was captured after surveillance and that intelligence reports suggested he planned to detonate the bomb at an undisclosed location in the city on Christmas Day.
Among the items they said were recovered from his room was a booklet on the organisation of the (MILF), a rebel group that has been Moro Islamic Liberation Front fighting to set up an Islamic state in the southern Philippines.
Tantawi said he hoped Mussa would be released "within the coming couple of days" and that the arrest was a mistake.
Lebanon's Syria-backed opposition threatened Sunday to boycott next week's parliament session to elect a new president unless the ruling coalition agrees to the shape of a future government ahead of the vote. The threat is likely to scuttle the presidential vote for the 11th time because the Western-backed majority has rejected the opposition's conditions, saying the shape of the next government could be discussed only after the presidential vote.
Kind of the point, isn't it?
The opposition will participate in the presidential vote, now scheduled for Dec. 29, "only in the framework of a clear and integrated political agreement as part of a full package with clear guarantees," said Hussein al-Haj Hassan a legislator from the Shiite militant group Hezbollah, which leads the opposition. Absent this agreement, "the opposition will not go to the voting session next Saturday and will not facilitate the election process," said Hassan in the statement.
The post has been empty since pro-Syrian President Emile Lahoud's term ended Nov. 23, plunging the country into the worst political crisis since the end of the 1975-90 civil war.
Lawmakers on both sides have agreed to back army commander Gen. Michel Suleiman as a compromise candidate, but parliament must first amend the constitution to allow a sitting military chief to become president. This process has been complicated by the opposition's demand for a new unity government that would give it veto power over major decisions, which the ruling coalition has rejected. "The political process is inter-linked. The presidency, the government and other issues cannot be separated from each other," said Hassan Fadlallah, another Hezbollah lawmaker.
The ruling coalition has accused the opposition of obstructing the presidential vote under orders from Syria and Iran, which back Hezbollah. In turn, the opposition claims pro-government groups in the parliament majority follow US policies. "The problem is not with Gen. Suleiman as a consensus candidate, but with a group (the ruling coalition) that changes its political stands according to American dictates," said Hassan.
Also Sunday, opposition lawmakers lashed out at US President George W. Bush for urging the parliamentary majority to elect a president with a simple majority if necessary to resolve a long political deadlock. Lebanon's sharply divided parliament has failed ten times to elect a president because the opposition has boycotted sessions, preventing a two-thirds quorum to convene a session. The ruling coalition has avoided trying to use its slim majority in parliament to elect a president, which would escalate tensions with the opposition. Bush urged such a step for the first time Thursday. "Bush didn't enter a country where he didn't cause wars and strife," said Fadlallah, the Hezbollah legislator. "He is trying to spread his experiment to Lebanon."
Opposition legislator Osama Saad agreed, saying Bush's call would plunge Lebanon into "chaos and expose it to dangers."
This article starring:
Emile Lahoud
HASAN FADLALLAH
Hezbollah
HUSEIN AL HAJ HASAN
Hezbollah
Michel Suleiman
OSAMA SAAD
Hezbollah
Posted by: Fred ||
12/24/2007 00:00 ||
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Member of the Lebanese parliamentart bloc of Hezbollah, MP Hussein Hajj Hassan said on Sunday that the opposition would not participate in a presidential poll next Saturday unless in the framework of a political agreement and a clear, full basket and clear guarantees. In a speech during a ceremonial eulogy in the city of Zahle, Hajj reaffirmed the opposition's approval of the nomination of Army Commander Gen. Michel Suleiman as next president. However, he accused the March 14 bloc (parliamentary majority), for changing its political positions. "The problem is with the March 14 bloc, which continues to exist despite our best efforts changes its political positions," he said. "We do not want to hold presidential elections, then nominate a prime minister and form a government after which problems start and stances blast", he said.
Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri has postponed for the tenth time a session of the house to elect a president last of which scheduled for yesterday. The next session was set for December 29.
Lebanon is in a political vacuum since Syria keeps killing the anti-Syria politicians the end of the presidential mandate of the outgoing President Emile Lahoud on the 24 of November following political differences between the parliamentary majority and opposition and the connection tying the president's issue with foreign and regional political aspects.
#1
"We do not want to hold presidential elections, then nominate a prime minister and form a government after which problems start and stances blast", he said
Freudian slip?
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/24/2007 4:31 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Former Guantanamo Bay inmate David Hicks prefers his prison cell to the prison yard after years of confinement, a report said Monday, just days ahead of the 'Aussie Taliban's' release. Hicks spent five years in US military custody at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and can no longer cope with open spaces, preferring enclosed rooms and artificial lighting to open air and sunshine, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.
A Saudi terrorism suspect facing possible charges before a military tribunal at Guantanamo has been identified as a brother-in-law of one of the Sept. 11 hijackers.
Friends of Rashid Rauf believe that he did not escape from custody last weekend, but was kidnapped by PakistanÂ’s secret agencies, according to a report published in The Sunday Times of London. Two junior policemen have been blamed for the escape, as they were escorting Rauf back to jail after a court hearing on moves to extradite him to Britain in connection with the murder of an uncle.
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: After the United States has spent more than $5 billion in a largely failed effort to bolster the Pakistani military effort against militants from Al Qaeda and the Taliban, some American officials now acknowledge that there were too few controls over how the money was spent, and that the strategy to improve the Pakistani military needs to be completely revamped.
Lebanon's Syria-backed opposition threatened Sunday to boycott next week's parliament session to elect a new president unless the ruling coalition agrees to the shape of a future government ahead of the vote. The threat is likely to scuttle the presidential vote for the 11th time because the Western-backed majority has rejected the opposition's conditions, saying the shape of the next government could be discussed only after the presidential vote.
