13-Year-Old Tried to Divert Killer From Classmates The agnostic in me is screaming that there is no God.
The oldest of the five Amish girls shot dead in a Pennsylvania schoolhouse is said to have stepped forward and asked her killer to "Shoot me first," in an apparent effort to buy time for her schoolmates. May everlasting mercy be visited upon her soul.
Rita Rhoads, a midwife who delivered two of the victims, told ABC News' Law and Justice Unit that she learned of 13-year-old Marian Fisher's plea from Fisher's family. What's more, Fisher's younger sister, Barbie, who survived the shooting, allegedly asked the gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, to "Shoot me second," Rhoads said. "They were amazing," Rhoads said, "absolutely amazing. The word they're searching for is "courageous."
There was a tremendous amount of calm and courage in that schoolroom." "Marian, the oldest one, did ask to be shot first," Rhoads said. "The faith of their fathers really was embedded in them. How many adults are willing to do that? Not many." Certainly not many today, by any measure.
Marian Fisher was buried Thursday, along with Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7, and sisters Mary Liz Miller, 8, and Lena Miller, 7. Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12, is to be buried on Friday. Rhoads' revelations come as the mystery surrounding the alleged motivation behind Roberts' attack deepens. Roberts entered West Nickel Mines Amish School on Monday and shot a total of 10 girls before turning the gun on himself. Rhoads said that before killing himself, Roberts uttered three words "Pray for me." May HELL freeze over before a word is uttered for his redemption.
Her account of Roberts' final words matched an account attributed to another named source in The New York Times. "He asked the children to pray for him, and that's kind of interesting because he said he hated God," Rhoads said. "He must have recognized the faith in them, God in them." Investigators believe Roberts, who brought lubricating jelly and plastic restraints with him, may have been planning to sexually assault the Amish girls. Life in prison might not have been too good for this maggot.
In notes left behind to his family and a cell-phone call to his wife, Roberts said he was haunted by memories of molesting two young relatives 20 years ago, according to police. Roberts, a 32-year-old milk truck driver, also said he had dreams of molesting children again. Of course, that could not possibly stop him.
However, investigators said that the two relatives, who would have been 4 or 5 at the time of the alleged attack, had told them that the abuse never happened. "Both of them have no recollection of being sexually assaulted by Roberts," state police Trooper Linette Quinn said. "They were absolutely sure they had no contact with Roberts." Reverse implanted memories, who could have guessed?
Meanwhile, two relatives of Marie Roberts, the killer's wife, told ABC News that she was not yet emotionally prepared to meet with the families of her husband's victims. "In a couple weeks, she's going to meet with all the families," said Shirley Girvin, Marie Roberts' great-aunt. A brave and good woman.
"That's her intention." Jacquie Hess, Marie Roberts' aunt, said that she and her father, Lloyd Welk, the widow's grandfather, had met on Tuesday with the Fisher family. "They told my father there were no hard feelings. There is forgiveness," Hess said. She added that to this day she still had a hard time believing what Charles Roberts had done. "I have asked to see his body," she said, "because, I said: 'I do not believe it was him.'" Try and tell me there is a God. I dare you. 9-11 made me wonder if there is one. Beslan nearly convinced me of it. And now, this. I weep for humanity.
#1
Her portrait goes in the encyclopedia entry on "Courage."
Posted by: Mike ||
10/06/2006 6:50 Comments ||
Top||
#2
"Try and tell me there is a God. I dare you."
Ok Zen, there 's a God.
The apparent contradiction of 'bad things happening to good people' is covered thorougly in the Bible. In fact, it's the primary theme of the oldest book in the Bible, that being Job.
Personally, I believe God has some special purpose or important work for Marian and Barbie Rhoads. They will no doubt be people of some great importance and power in eternity.
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."
#3
Zen, when you get down to brass tacks, this proves there's a God. How else could two young girls want to sacrifice themselves for others? It is NOT in our human nature to do that. As yesterday's article on this massacre's headline read "The REAL religion of peace".
God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts higher than our thoughts. There is NO way for us (as lowly humans) to understand "why bad things happen to good people", except to say that God's work for these 5 girls here on Earth was complete and it was time for them to come home. Look at how, already, the nation has come to completely respect the Amish, not just wonder if they're backwards and against "progress and technology." We ALL fall short of God's glory, but only through Christ can we be reconciled to Him. These girls knew that, and awaited (or even looked forward to) a FAR GREATER paradise in Heaven. Compare this with the death-cult we know as Islam and you'll see STARK differences (doing good all the way up to and including the end vs. killing others for 72 raisins among the starkest of the differences). Do NOT let human "Christians" and their actions here on earth confuse you with Christ's TRUE teachings and how we're supposed to treat each other.
Posted by: BA ||
10/06/2006 9:24 Comments ||
Top||
#4
To play Devil's Ad - I hope this story about the courage of the Amish girls is true & not another "early Jessica Lynch report" - you guys remember - where, "she went down fighting taking ten of the enemy with her before being captured" we heard that b.s. the first two weeks, then, it turns out she didn't even fire a shot because her dumb ass never properly cleaned her M16 in order for it to operate.
If, the story of these girls is true then God Bless'em to no end. Much braver than I.
Zen, I know how ya feel bro' but there is a God. Now, I don't buy half the stuff that's in the bible, preaching verse & scrip to me is like truly throwing a pearl before a muddy swine. I'm either a deist or a way old school unitarian. I feel that the Almighty gave man logic, reason, & free will, to do as he/she chooses w/it. I think Jesus, and even some of the other "non-christian" holy men may have some sort of divine spark and gave us even more insight on a good ethical construct in which to govern our personal lives. Though I do not necessarilly believe in a messiah, holy prophets, or some sort of redeemer. I think God can, but chooses not to interfere w/free will. I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles. For me, that would go against the natural way of things. That is my only logic that allows for "bad things to happen to good people." However, don't take what I say as gospel (no pun intended). It took me years and years of soul searching and study to come to my own spirituality & view of the Almighty. I definitely don't claim to know the mind of God, and I'm always suspicious of those who do.
BTW - I remember reading "the brothers karamazov (sp?)" - this situation reminds me of it.
#5
Everybody imagines God to be a human.
'I don't know the mind of God'
If God is a force, then does 'He' have a mind ?
Jesus taught the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son. Or one of many Sons.
I assume every human has a Holy Spirit or aura. There is one source, the Father, and certain beings who can connect the two, Sons.
I think also that plants and animals have their own auras and can be connected to the Father by specific Sons, peculiar to species.
Finally, God doesn't make things happen, we do.
Our NEED to remain good and without sin is that the deterioration of the aura caused by sinning separates the individual from the force, and from a chance to return to the Father, or going to Heaven.
#6
This behavior by the Amish girl is completely consistent with what we know to be true about the behavior of the overall Amish community to this atrocity. I find it all leads me to GREATER belief in God rather than less. Without God, how could they keep from exploding in violent rage? They're not even my family or community and I feel rage. Plus, if you believe Islam is Satanic, this Amish behavior is pretty much the polar opposite of Islam, so they might have the God picture about right.
#7
If there is a God he is a cold hearted S.O.B. Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen. Was he whacking off to the scene as Charlie Roberts worked his way through not one but 10 little girls with a determined blood lust? Where was your god then? Where was your god at Midway, Chosen Reservoir, Ypres, or for that matter on Sept. 11, 2001 in Manhattan? The existence of a supreme being is a great fairy tale, hell, I'd like to believe in it myself, but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof. The only proof I have ever seen my whole life is that there can't be a god, and if there is he is a real dick.
#9
This proves to me there is a God. He takes the good ones, becuase he wants their company. That's why people like these girls and Steve Irwin get taken away prematurely, and farks like Fred Phelps keep on living to be older than dirt.
#11
It doesn't take a troll to point out a few obvious inconsistencies with the concept of "the all powerful and merciful deity". Other posters proclaim their belief in "it", I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?
#12
Is there a God? Is there a meaning to life? We'll all eventually find out, if only by default if there's nothing past our death.
In the meantime, I still believe there a positive response to both questions, but that's just my belief; me too I'm basically a deist from a catholic background (Christianity is dead, here, french church attendance has gone from 60-66% once a week in the early 60's, to 5% once a month now), and I think a belief in a loving deity and a meaning to life is a very positive force.
#13
I think it can and has been a powerful force for good anonymous5089 , but it is also the very same force that is employed by the Islamofacists to justiy their ruthless proliferation of Islam by the sword.
#14
I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?
That's an age-old question, nothing new here, "why do bad things happen to good people, and good thing to bad people?". AFAIK, there's no determinism in Christianity, you do your own choices, whatever they might be, and it affects the others like it turns out. We're not puppets, we're free to do good and evil (at least in the limits allowed by our genetical hard wiring, hé hé hé).
#15
Yes, it is a fair question, but you seem to ignore the plausible answers. My apologies for the troll reference, but I automatically hold suspect those who post without a nick.
There's a base assumption to this question, and that is that God is the only spiritual force in the universe. He is not. Just as he is good, there are vast spiritual forces bent on evil. The fact that he doesn't control our choices should be a praise, not a criticism.
Again, the troll reference was unnecessarily inflammatory, and I do hope you not only seek the answer to your question, but also that you do not automatically discount the answers you don't like.
He was co-piloting Wade McCluskey's SBD, leading the single most devastating aerial attack in naval history, five minutes that stopped an evil empire's march of conquest in its tracks.
Posted by: Mike ||
10/06/2006 12:13 Comments ||
Top||
#17
I think it can and has been a powerful force for good anonymous5089 , but it is also the very same force that is employed by the Islamofacists to justiy their ruthless proliferation of Islam by the sword.
One guy I liked on the french web (a France-Echos editor, by the way) was a traditionalist catholic (the whole package, ex-para, recreational shootist, quite rare in France, self-defense advocate, etc, etc...) with some very interesting theories; one was the Lovelock Gaia theory; in this religions and civilizations are actually "living" entities; some are begnign, others are predatory and/or parasitical.
Islam is not a worship of a loving, all-encompassing deity, but of a mercurial, capricious dictator-in-the-sky (a 7th bedouin warlord, really) in the image of the religion's creator, who needs total and blind obedience (think of the Faithfuls bowing in front of him 5 times a day).
So, religions as powerful civilizational (or even personal) driving forces can be positive or destructive, but organized religion is not to blame per se; in fact, it seems to be the "default" condition of Humanity (human group = worship in one form or an another).
#18
Very fair question 5349. I'm sorry I don't have any better answers. I definitley don't think God sits back and wax ecstatic over human suffering. Quite the contrary. I think humans are simply born into a fluid and dynamic environment on nature's whim w/the ability to choose to good or bad and will in some way be held to account for their actions or lack there of.
Assuming that God gets into the day-to-day decisions about who dies when, these girls were a tremendous testament to faith in God. They've touched millions of people, which might - in the eye of a Supreme Being - justify the fear and pain they felt for a few minutes. Their suffering is over; ours continues.
And it ought to tell the wackos something about the faith and courage of certain 13-year-old girls in this society. Lord, they were brave!
Posted by: Bobby ||
10/06/2006 12:47 Comments ||
Top||
#21
Basically UC5349: I won't refer to you as a troll either. Just one who is searching (as is all of us here). There are many here who are NOT Christian or even deists (many agnostics and/or atheists). But, I share "fellowship" with them (as a Christian, myself) here at RB, because we ALL recognize the evil disguised as a religion in Islam. Again, I try not to look at those who practice a said religion, but what that religion's "holy man/men" say and do, and what that religion's "holy book" teaches. Islam teaches spreading of the faith by the sword, no matter how few "Islamists" actually go through with implementing that vision. Christ taught love, faith, forgiveness, but also turning from "sin." Yes, in many ways, our feeble human brains can't fully fathom God (His ways truly are higher than ours), but also, He created us to fellowship with Him and to further His kingdom here on Earth. He wanted us to come to Him of our own accord and not just have "robots" who don't think things through in "worshipping" Him.
And, like others have said before me, God was everywhere in the events you mentioned. Otherwise, we'd all be speaking German and killing Jooooos right now. He was everywhere on 9/11....in the firefighters who rushed up the stairs, in the police who responded, in those individuals who rescued numerous others before perishing themselves, even in the Americans who took down flight 93. But, he was elsewhere on that day, too, comforting some who jumped from the 105th floor, or causing others to not even show up that day or be delayed by just enough time to miss the tragedy (like the several people we heard about who were late because of traffic, their kids were late to school, etc.).
I go back to my original point...this all (to me, at least) proves there is a God. How else do you explain the restraint the Amish are showing, or the individual heroism these girls showed. I know of no other 13 year old that would say "Shoot me first."
Posted by: BA ||
10/06/2006 13:18 Comments ||
Top||
#22
While I certainly cannot apologize for my words, I will say that I had not intended to start a theology thread with today's comments. I do appreciate everyone's contributions. Incidents like this are not able to force me away from my agnostic position and into atheism, no matter how tempting or convenient it might be at times.
The scientist and rationalist in me refuses to accept, without proof, any notion of the supernatural. This in no way precludes my appreciation for the almost miraculous nature of our universe's existence. Most especially that all of our best emperical estimates point towards this 20 billion light year across universe springing from a particle the size of a proton. Fiat lux, indeed.
I know that many of you would argue that God's existence is proven, not just by our own astounding consciousness and the human body's fabulous complexity, but by the almost incredible fecundity and immense beauty of the natural world that surrounds us. My personal respect for evolution interferes with reaching that faith-based conclusion. My sense of free will most definitely prohibits any belief in predestination. Even Charles Darwin, a deeply religious man, felt that God could not preordain the destination of every single raindrop. Therefore, it is difficult for me to envision the hand of God in any of these events. It is far more tempting to think that God is on vaction when atrocities like 9-11 or Beslan happen. Neither explanation is satisfactory for me.
If, the story of these girls is true then God Bless'em to no end. Much braver than I.
Zen, I know how ya feel bro' but there is a God. Now, I don't buy half the stuff that's in the bible, preaching verse & scrip to me is like truly throwing a pearl before a muddy swine. I'm either a deist or a way old school unitarian. I feel that the Almighty gave man logic, reason, & free will, to do as he/she chooses w/it. I think Jesus, and even some of the other "non-christian" holy men may have some sort of divine spark and gave us even more insight on a good ethical construct in which to govern our personal lives. Though I do not necessarilly believe in a messiah, holy prophets, or some sort of redeemer. I think God can, but chooses not to interfere w/free will. I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles. For me, that would go against the natural way of things. That is my only logic that allows for "bad things to happen to good people." However, don't take what I say as gospel (no pun intended). It took me years and years of soul searching and study to come to my own spirituality & view of the Almighty. I definitely don't claim to know the mind of God, and I'm always suspicious of those who do.
Thank you, Broadhead6. Out of all the posts today, your most closes paralells my own feelings on this topic. I appreciate everyone's contributions in this thread. Some, like Mike's, are inspiring to consider. I just wish there was some way that murderous cretins like Roberts could simply make themselves their first and last victim and save us the grief and all the ensuing emotional and legal trials.
#23
This one isn't about God -- absent, present, existent or non-, none of the options foreclose how we ought to behave toward one another, or how we ought not behave. Some good people need to keep their view to the material world of the here and now, others need to lift their eyes to Heaven as best they can understand it. It takes strength to go about life without the protective hand of God; so, too, does it take strength to try to live each moment rightly under God's watchful gaze... And those who make those choices truly have my admiration.
But to blame God for the evil that men choose to do, whether it is murder brave and innocent Amish children, or those imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp for the purpose, or those of a different skin colour in Sudan, is to unfairly shift responsibility off the shoulders of those who freely choose to do evil instead of good. Whether through God's creation or the luck of evolution (or God choosing to use the method of evolution to create us -- I don't rule that out) we have the ability at each juncture to choose to do good or evil. Contrary to the rantings of that stupid Phelps woman, it is each of us who makes that choice, not God using us as a tool to accomplish cruel and evil ends. A God who intervenes to prevent or remedy is taking away that freedom to choose, because without the ability to choose to do evil, we cannot freely choose to do good. And then all our actions, our choices, our decisions, are merely the acts of puppets, not people.
I say this as a Jew who lost a significant portion of my family at the hands of the Nazis and those who chose to help execute their schemes.
Zenster, you will come to whatever conclusions make sense to you from the accumulation of events, and that should not change the essentials. As BA so elequently said, we share fellowship here and elsewhere -- not with those who merely claim the same label of faith, but with those who try to do good and fight the great evil of our time that is Jihadi Islam.
#24
But to blame God for the evil that men choose to do, whether it is murder brave and innocent Amish children, or those imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp for the purpose, or those of a different skin colour in Sudan, is to unfairly shift responsibility off the shoulders of those who freely choose to do evil instead of good.
Exactly. As I said before, the fact that God doesn't control our choices should be a praise, not a criticism.
#25
The pastor at my (Baptist) wife's church often talks about "God sightings," little examples of divine intervention from daily life. I once used the concept as an organizing theme of a half-hour's preaching at a Catholic men's renewal weekend.
Marian Fisher is a prime example of a God sighting. So were Wells Crowther and Rick Rescorla and the FDNY and the "93rd Volunteer Infantry," as I like to call 'em.
In their own, more modest way, so are the postings above from mcsgeek and BA and Broadhead and Glenmore and Bobby and trailing wife (and wxjames, though his theology's rather different from the rest).
Zen, see what you started? God's looking out for you; He just 'jacked a whole Rantburg discussion thread just to get your attention!
I shall put in a word for you on Sunday as well.
Posted by: Mike ||
10/06/2006 14:41 Comments ||
Top||
#26
I have very little to add to the discussion here but Broadhead6 noted:
"I'd not rule out that maybe he works through people or gives hints here and there but I do not think there are any bonified miracles".
ABC reported "At the behest of Amish leaders, a fund has also been set up for the killer's widow and three children".
Webster's definition "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"
#27
Folks here can talk whatever, but that sorry pos that killed those girls best hope there isn't a God. Fuuny how how little girls can be more of a man than many men.
The Amish may be on to something. Those girls are in a better place now, sitting on the knee and being comforted by the the Father of Creation.
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
Somehow I suspect this is the understatement of the millenia.
Posted by: Evil Elvis ||
10/06/2006 15:10 Comments ||
Top||
#28
This one isn't about God -- absent, present, existent or non-, none of the options foreclose how we ought to behave toward one another, or how we ought not behave. Some good people need to keep their view to the material world of the here and now, others need to lift their eyes to Heaven as best they can understand it. It takes strength to go about life without the protective hand of God; so, too, does it take strength to try to live each moment rightly under God's watchful gaze...
An incredibly well-written post, trailing wife, all of it. Thank you.
#30
Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen.
The answer to this question can actually be found in the book of Genesis, if you read between the lines, so to speak. This is how I see it: God created man and woman in his own image, except without the capacity to understand the world completely. In other words, he hid certain things from them. Now, this would be an incredibly boring existence. Man and woman would be like robots, really. So God decided to open up his entire "knowledge base" to them. Unfortunately, this knowledge includes the concept of evil. So what to do? Well, God decided to introduce a filter by which He would separate the good folks from the bad, since people who tend to do nothing but evil are generally a pain to have around. This filter is, of course, His apparent absence* from our lives: He gave us free choice to do both good and evil. The problem is, without some slight intervention on His part, we'd all kill ourselves in no time. So He sent us some help in the form of Jesus, the prophets, and perhaps some other folks.
Now, notice what happens in the end: Good wins over evil so that no evil can be done, but the good guys still retain access to the entire knowledge base (or at least partial access), so that for instance, nuclear technology (something that can be used for both good and evil) is used for energy purposes, but doesn't have to be used for nuclear weapons anymore. Clear as mud?
*absence is crucial, for if God decided to reveal himself to us outright, then we would not really have any shot at redemption. If God reveals Himself to you, and you still decide on being evil, well then you're screwed royally.
but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof
Anyone interested in some (hopefully original) insight on the question of proof of God's existence can shoot me an email.
Posted by: Rafael ||
10/06/2006 15:21 Comments ||
Top||
We have the freedom - and presumably the wisdom - to choose our own actions.
But, in order to choose wisely we must therefore appreciate the value of learning, questioning and debate (as evidenced right here in this thread, for example) because they provide us with the knowledge and perspective with which we can make good choices of action for ourselves and our society.
In the Jewish tradition, for example, the Talmud is a record of debates in an attempt to find meaning and relevance from the Torah to apply it to the world in which we live. The tradition carries on in Jewish culture. That's how you can have 5 Jews in a room with 8 opinions.
Contrast that with societies (or, er, religions) that do not allow questioning or debate. Dogmatic. Rigid. Extreme. Unable to adapt to the world as it is. And if your religion is unable to adapt, your only option is to force the world to do so.
So please, Rantburgers. Argue (no name calling, though). Debate. Understand others' points of view. In other words, demonstrate exactly what Rantburg professes to be about: "Well Reasoned Discourse"
The fact that people can choose to to evil, as well as good, is a feature, not a bug. Its called 'Free Will' and it enables us to be extramly beautiful beings (such as Marian Fisher in this article) or extreamly ugly (Hitler, Mohammed, Pol-Pot, etc... the list is entirely too long...).
In the end it is what makes us 'in the image of God' - otherwise we would be no better then this chair, or a car, or a rock or a tree. Or at best a dog or a cow or a pig.
#34
I simply say, why would an all powerful merciful god let dispicable shit like that happen? Isn't that a fair question?
What if you have no perspective. What if all of the torments on Earth are nothing, absolutely insignificant by comparison to the torments in the afterlife. They are a trifle in time as well as in actual anguish. What if the same is true of the good times.
Then all the pain and injustice you see as proof of no God just becomes a pop quiz to see who is worthy. God is a bouncer trying to sort out the assholes and a few rough questions are hardly so bad to get into the ultimate cool club.
#35
I guess if you want, you could look at that as a miracle Gort. I just figured it was a compassionate choice based on the free will of the Amish leadership. :)
#38
#16 Mike--VERY well said. TW, brilliant as usual. Thanks to both of you.
Posted by: mac ||
10/06/2006 18:07 Comments ||
Top||
#39
Personally, I know God is there. I've lost 2 siblings, both young at the time, with small kids. They died within a year of one another. Afterwards, my eyes lifted up, as TW so artfully put it. I know my brother and step-sis are with Him. I know that they watch over the rest of our family. I've not focused on this tragedy as it is just too horrible, one more in a long list. But it does not deter my faith. Without it, despite my paucity of religous teaching, I would be lost. This doesn't tell Zenster or anyone else anything about proof. It does not postulate anything. But I believe what I believe. They are there and they are waiting. I will live my life as positively as I can so that I can see them, and the rest of my family again, and to be with God in his House.
#40
After reading through this excellent thread, it is my humble observation that, next to life, the greatest gift God ever gave us was free will itself.
He not only gave us a choice. He gave us the power to choose.
#42
I work for God; So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies. Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about. But trust me.... You don't. I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you don't know what you are talking about. This is how bad info gets passed around. If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do. Cos some Rantburgers believe anything they hear.
#45
Don't be makin' fun of Thoth. He's an ancient Egyptian diety. You don't even have hieroglyphics for your names, you religious nobodys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djehuty
#46
Jeepers, Darrell! Where you be findin' stuff like dat?
Posted by: Bobby ||
10/06/2006 22:14 Comments ||
Top||
#47
If there is a God he is a cold hearted S.O.B.
He can be, yes, when there is a lesson He wants to teach or a point He wants to make or bring home to His people.
Remember, He forced the Hebrews to wander in the desert for 40 years after delivering them from slavery. That drove home a point.
Remember, He (in the incarnation of His Son) drove the moneylenders from the temple to drive home a point.
Remember, on a bet with Satan He allowed (not caused - there's a big difference) a number of unpleasant things to happen to Job - to drive home a point.
Why would any "Supreme Being" need to sit back and allow shit like this to happen.
See above - you need to read your Bible a bit more and stop reading Hustler.
as Charlie Roberts worked his way through not one but 10 little girls with a determined blood lust? Where was your god then?
He was there. He was there in the hearts of those children. He was there in the thoughts of their parents and millions of other Americans across this country as they watched this drama unfold. He was there in our prayers for them and their families. He was there in mercy as the quick deaths they were granted. He was there as the sparrows that winged their way across the fields or the crows that may have perched near the windows and watched as things unfolded. He was there in the sun and the light that danced across the fields and shone through the schools' windows that morning. He was there in countless different ways that we cannot even imagine.
He was there.
Where were you?
Where was your god at Midway, Chosen Reservoir, Ypres, or for that matter on Sept. 11, 2001 in Manhattan?
He was at all these places and more. He was there at Midway as others have explained, but He was there in countless other ways as well.
God is always there if you look for Him.
He looks for you as well.
The existence of a supreme being is a great fairy tale,
Do tell. Better men than you continue to acknowledge His presence in countless ways.
hell,
Is where you're headed right now.
I'd like to believe in it myself,
Then do so. It's easy. All you have to do is believe.
but not a single person has ever shown me a shred of proof. The only proof I have ever seen my whole life is that there can't be a god, and if there is he is a real dick.
God does not provide proof because He asks for faith not blind allegiance to solid proof. There is a huge difference between faith in something you cannot see and absolute certainty in something you can see, hold, touch, taste, feel, etc., etc.
God does not ask for much. He asks only for faith. He does not even ask for blind obediance to His laws. His Son already paid the price for our continual breaking of His laws.
You remind me of a lot of people I have met who are seeking something, almost anything to believe in.
#48
You know what's great about this thread? It's that people can say mean-spirited things like Uneang Creagum5349 did in #7 and most of us just think, Pshaw, too bad for you. No rioting, no fatwas, and we don't really even care much, except maybe some of the Christian rantburgers might pray that he can join in the light.
#49
He asks for faith not blind allegiance to solid proof.
Solid proof does not demand blind allegiance. Just like science, it provides you with information you can choose to make use of or ignore. Faith, in its blind variety, more closely approximates blind allegiance than pursuit of emperical knowledge ever will. Permit me to bring your attention to the many scientists whole find room in their sphere of perception for both science and religion. And please do not, for an instant, try to tell me that science is some sort of religion. No religion on earth is willing to discard long held tenets immediately upon their factual disproval, like science does at every new turn of discovery.
#50
If there were proof God existed faith would not be needed everyone would convert, and the whole point of free will and choosing to do the right thing would disappear.
#51
Zenster, I'm just curious? What came before the big bang?? How does a vacuum get a spark going anyway??
Now don't go getting mad, I'm just making the point that science also requires faith, though it is generally more willing to discard beliefs when a new theory comes along with more merit.
But infinity and what existed before time began are concepts that we humans do not have the capacity to understand. God requires no less faith than science does.
#52
Permit me to bring your attention to the many scientists who find room in their sphere of perception for both science and religion.
And where did I say anything that would deny them this privilege? I believe in science and the pursuit of knowledge. I envision myself to be a scientist, of sorts.
There is nothing in faith that prevents science. In fact, I believe that faith encourages science.
And please do not, for an instant, try to tell me that science is some sort of religion.
Where did I even imply that Zenster?
Is your apparent hatred of God, or even the concept of God, and religion so strong that you cannot even acknowledge that scientists can have religion too - that I can believe in evolution and still believe in God at the same time?
God is mightier than we imagine. He is mightier than we can imagine IMO. I used to tutor students who were devout "Christians" and we would always, constantly, and consistently become embroiled in the argument about evolution versus creationism.
My answer to them was always - "Why are you trying to limit God? He said that the the very rocks would cry out His handiwork - and they do!"
I know He's also a lot smarter than we are - and He does have a sense of humor, sometimes what we would perceive as a very strange one.
See? It's a quagmire! Not sure there will be any Arabs in 2017, but hey, it's comedy...
The year is 2017, according to the opening credits of the fake news broadcast, and the last man alive in Iraq, whose name is Saaed, is sitting at a desk, working as a television news anchor. He sports an Afro, star-shaped sunglasses and a button-down shirt.
The Americans are still here, the government is still bumbling and the anchor wants his viewers to drink their tea slowly so they don't burn themselves. "You cannot go to the hospital during the curfew," he warns. For Iraqis, the remark is outrageously funny, if only because it's so close to being true.
After a summer of the worst violence since U.S. troops toppled Saddam Hussein's regime, tens of thousands of Iraqis are finding solace and amusement in a new television show whose dark satirical humor makes it an Iraqi version of Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show."
The nightly send-up of a newscast includes weather, sports and business segments and features six characters, all played by the same actor.
With seemingly no sacred cows, it provides insight into how Iraqis see their country's problems, through its lampooning of the Americans, the Iraqi government, the militias and the head of Iraq's state-owned media company.
Even the show's name is a joke. The title first appears on the screen as "The Government," but then the word is split in half, producing an Iraqi slang phrase that means, "Hurry Up, He's Dead."
The show is being produced to run only during Ramadan, the month when Muslims fast from sunrise to sunset, and it airs just as Baghdadis are breaking their fast.
During one episode last week, Saaed announced that the minister of culture will print and distribute 200 copies of "Leila and the Wolf," the Arabic version of "Little Red Riding Hood." But in these copies, Leila is the Iraqi people and the American forces are the wolf. The books will help children learn about occupation, Saaed explained.
In the next day's episode, Saaed joyfully announces that the Americans are finally leaving Iraq. Referring to the U.S. secretary of defense, Saaed, sitting behind his news desk, says: "Rums bin Feld said the American forces are leaving on 1-1," referring to Jan. 1.
He's giddy, raising his arms in the air. Then he realizes he's made a mistake. The soldiers are leaving one by one, not on 1-1. He computes in his head what leaving one by one means and announces that the soldiers will be gone in 694 years. He starts to cry; Iraqis watching the show howl.
The show is written by a glum but sarcastic man from Baghdad's Sadr City district named Talib al-Sudani, 40, a poet and writer who cannot talk about his show without dropping in commentary about the lack of services here.
Al-Sudani pitched the idea to Baghdad's local Sharkia station, which has made its reputation producing reality shows similar to those seen on U.S. television. Last year's big hit helped young couples pay for their weddings.
These days, however, Sharkia's offices are largely empty. "Hurry Up, He's Dead" is filmed in Dubai; it would be too dangerous and impractical, with curfews and loud helicopters flying overhead, to film in Baghdad.
The station bought the show idea from al-Sudani for less than $4,000. He sends his scripts via the Internet. Occasionally, he's asked the station to drop a scene after realizing that, for a man still living in Iraq, he's gone too far. He insists he doesn't support one faction of the government over others.
"I don't support this government. I don't support any government," he said.
Saaed Khalifa, 43, an Iraqi actor who fled to Syria after the fall of Saddam's regime, plays all the main characters on the show. "I accepted this part because I wanted to prove myself as an actor and an Iraqi man loyal to his country," he said.
Khalifa is coy about whether he's Sunni or Shiite, perhaps in keeping with the theme of the show that it ultimately won't matter.
Al-Sudani said one advantage of filming in Dubai is that the modern skyline helps him make another point about the Baghdad of the future: that while Iraq may have a future, it may not have many people to enjoy it.
Al-Sudani doesn't plan to see if that ever happens.
"I am planning to book a one-way ticket out of here." Try Kurdistan, dood.
Insurance, in an Amish community, is an unknown. Four children buried on Thursday, another one today.
Still struggling for their lives in a hospital, are young girls, struggling not only with their physical pain, but their mental anguish of what has happened to them and their friends.
And because they have to, hospitals have to be paid. Granted, the love and caring of those caring for these young girls is "nothing but the best."
We all have misted eyes as we observe the happenings surrounding the brutal murder these young girls have yet to face. We know the mental battle for these young girls will be a lifetime of healing.
The physical battle is yet to be won. There is no insurance. Somebody has to pay. Let it be us. Please pass the word.
As of Thursday, the agency had received about 200 credit-card donations - in amounts ranging from $20 to $100 - for a total of $15,000, said Ron Guenther, the agency's director of finance. Calls have come in from the United States and Canada as well as from Argentina, Germany, Vietnam and other nations.
"It's not big monies at this point, but that could easily change," said Guenther, especially since a number of corporations have contacted the agency about donating.
Contributions to the Amish School Recovery Fund will help the affected community with medical care, transportation, supportive care and other needs. Tax-deductible donations can be made by calling MCC at (717) 859-1151, or MDS at (717) 859-2210. To donate online, go to mds.mennonite.net or mcc.org. To donate by mail, send checks to
Amish School Recovery Fund
Mennonite Disaster Service
1018 Main Street
Akron , PA 17501
Amish School Recovery Fund
Mennonite Central Committee
21 S. 12th St.
P.O. Box 500
Akron , PA 17501
The chief of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Madinah, Suleiman ibn Saleh Al-Tuwaijeri, has dismissed media reports of the heavy-handedness of certain commission members as unfounded and contrary to the facts. Al-Tuwaijeri made the comments while replying to questions directed at him at "the 18th Session of the Principals and Administrative Directors of Schools" at the College of Teachers in Madinah on Monday. "The reports about the commission in some newspapers are incorrect and lack credibility as they were quoting out of context and blowing things out of proportion in order to tarnish the image of the commission," he said.
Al-Tuwaijeri said that the Kingdom's Shariah-based establishments such as the courts, the commission and educational institutions have always been targets of hostile propaganda and unfounded criticism.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
"The reports about the commission in some newspapers are incorrect and lack credibility as they were quoting out of context and blowing things out of proportion in order to tarnish the image of the commission," he said.
Now get the fuck out of here before we kill you...
#2
"The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has said that it is the religious duty of every believer to stop evil actions by force or admonition and if he is incapable of doing this then to at least disapprove of the evil."
There's just this leetle beety disconnect on the definition of evil. No big thang.
The number of Sri Lankan maids escaping their sponsors has risen significantly since the onset of Ramadan, sources at the country's embassy told The Peninsula yesterday. "We are receiving three to four runaway maids on an average a day since the past week," a source at the mission said. They are mainly complaining of overwork and lack of rest and sleep and want to return home. The number of runaway maids usually increases during Ramadan because most of them are made to work for more than 18 hours a day. The average number of runaway maids was almost 10 a week before Ramadan, said the mission source.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[4 views]
Top|| File under:
SYLHET, Oct 4: A young man was today awarded life term for throwing acid on college girl in Islampur village of Companyganj upazila in September last year, reports UNB.
The judge handed down the punishment to Enamul Haq Bilop, 22, of Tukergaon village.
The prosecution said Bilop, spoiled son of Ali Azam, used to offer love to Lovely Begum, 17, a student of Saifur Rahman College. She refused. Frustrated and enraged Biplob took revenge by throwing acid on her on September 5 last year. Badly burnt Lovely was treated in Osmany Medical College Hospital and later in Dhaka.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Hmmm. What's missing from this story? Here's a far fetched idea: The 'boy' was muzzie and the girl was not. I know, I know, that's crazy. It could never happen. I'm stereotyping. How dare I.
3 years ago a no extras basic liver transplant cost 3/4 mil +/- out the door at a major first rate hospital here on the left coast. not including the usual minimal 'tune-ups', nursing care at home etc.
with complications like bad infections, kidney failure/dialysis etc. figure price to take a mighty upward excursion.
IOW choices, if your organs go South you can either purchase an Intaglio printing press or forgit about buying green bananas.
The UN's deputy secretary general Mark Malloch Brown has told the EU Observer that in future, the European Commission is likely to take a single European seat on EU bodies. The end result of this, of course, would be France and Britain surrendering their permanent seats on the UN Security Council in favour of a single EU seat.
Fat chance of either Paris or London considering that in the near future, unless the UN set-up changes radically. France periodically dangles the prospect of an EU seat before Europe's federalists, but is too addicted to the posturing opportunities the seat brings to give it up. Besides, any French surrender of its Security Council seat would come so loaded with caveats that even the most swivel-eyed federalist would hesitate to take the offer: Like numerous other EU bodies, Paris would demand that the seat was occupied by a Frenchman for a decade or two at least.
Britain, for its part, claims to treasure its independence from Brussels and would come under additional pressure from the Americans to hang on to the only permanent seat that comes complete with a near-guaranteed vote for US policy. An EU-wide seat, particularly one under the baleful influence of the Quai d'Orsay, would be a trickier proposal.
Nevertheless, it's worth taking Malloch Brown's vision seriously. The EU Commission already has an office in New York and is playing a role in some UN Agencies. Malloch Brown (a Brit) notes that some member states are suspicious of the idea of another layer of institutions between national governments and the international community, but says he hopes the change to EU control comes about "as quickly as possible."
He added that the Security Council needed to be reformed to reflect the growth in status of developing countries such as Brazil, India and some African nations.
October 6, 2006 -- Managers of the Gloria Wise Boys & Girls Club in The Bronx looted the charity and used $1.2 million in taxpayer money for luxury cars, home renovations and start-up cash for lefty radio network Air America, a two-year investigation has found.
The bombshell probe by the city Department of Investigation was made public yesterday as two of Gloria Wise's top former officials took a no-jail plea deal - admitting in Bronx Supreme Court they stole as much as $150,000 from programs meant for kids, the elderly and the disabled.
In all, investigators found that six former Gloria Wise officials took $290,000 to pay for their personal expenses - on top of excessively generous salaries.
Posted by: Frank G ||
10/06/2006 10:05 Comments ||
Top||
#2
Is Patrick Fitzgerald going to prosecute this case? Or is he too busy making up charges about a crime that was never committed?
#6
Forgive me for being redundant but for any new RB readers, here is one of the equations that one must know in order to make sense of the modern world: DEMOCRAT=CRIMINAL. The Democrats are lying, sleazy bastards who are very well aware they couldn't possibly win an election by running on their actual, left-wing, America-hating agenda. Knowing that, they do everything they can to camouflage what they really believe and use any means available to tear down the opposition and gain power for themselves. Ironically, since they are the party who installed and continues to perpetuate racial quotas and set-asides, one of their favorite smear tactics is hurling spurious charges of racism and bigotry.
Posted by: mac ||
10/06/2006 17:59 Comments ||
Top||
#7
I'm not willing to go that far, mac -- some Rantburgers are still registered members of the Democratic Party, and some of them are still fighting a valiant rear-guard action. But the Air America people have gone beyond Democrat to Liberal, and when people noticed what that was a code word for, they retitled themselves as Progressive. And with regard to Progressives, every word of your invective unfortunately holds true.
#8
TW, I know you're still a registered Democrat and I respect your reasons for being so. You, Zell Miller, and Joe Lieberman all seem to be hoping that the inmates can be made to disgorge control of the asylum. I'm afraid I don't have your optimism. The heavy, repeated and continuing attacks on this country's best interests have quite simply placed Democrats beyond the bounds of loyal opposition.
I have a question that you might be able to shed some light on. It has appeared to me in the last decade that the continuing Jewish support for Democrats is woefully misplaced. The Republicans are far more ideologically supportive of meritocracy and a foreign policy that strongly favors Israel. Is there any movement toward shifting that support to the Republicans?
Posted by: mac ||
10/06/2006 19:26 Comments ||
Top||
#9
Actually, mac, I've always been an Independent, although Mr. Wife and I registered each for one of the parties so that we could have input in the Ohio primaries... but I kept forgetting which party I'm registered to, and in the meantime they made the primaries open.
But in this post-9/11 world the only thing that matters to me is winning this existential war, a war the Democratic Party refuses to take seriously. I therefore feel forced to vote straight Republican ticket until further notice.
As far as American Jews and party affiliation, yes, there has been significant movement to the Republican party, particularly amongst the Orthodox Jews (most traditionally religious) and the young people. In 2004 this was a matter of great concern amongst the historical leadership, and the reason John Kerry made a point about his newly discovered Czech-Jewish ancestory. (I was invited to a thingy where his brother spoke at the time, and overheard interesting bits of conversation as I circulated afterward.)
The latest Reuters/Zogby telephone poll shows Sen. George Allen (R.-Va.) with an 11-point lead in his race against Democrat James Webb. The poll is welcome news for a campaign that has been dogged recently by Allen's own gaffes and an ensuing feeding frenzy by the liberal Washington Post.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
Good. I would have voted for Webb, but this is the sleazist race I've ever seen. Webb is playing the race and bigot card in the worst way. I hope people will send him off with a good kick in the *** as a message to other candidates who want to move backwards instead of fore.
#3
Ever get the feeling Democrats LIE about poll results to try to convince people that they are going to win anyway, and so you might as well just go ahead and vote for them.
#4
don't know if this poll is worth anything - another poll the other day had webb in lead or dead heat - but zogby usually slants to dems, so who knows.
will vote for allen - webb & dems are sleazes - just that crap about allen's poor non-political mother should be enough for anyone w/a conscience to vote against dems
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
10/06/2006 13:42 Comments ||
Top||
#5
I really liked Webb's books about Nam. He was scathing toward the media of the day. I haven't paid much attention to this race. I'm sad to hear that he has become a run of the mill dem.
#6
Hell will freeze over and they'll be televising Olympic ice hockey from there before I ever vote for a Democrat again. Someone openly admitting to being a Democrat is sufficient grounds for me to automaticallly assume said individual untrustworthy and incapable of analytical thought. Lord knows the Repubs have more than their share of faults but the Democrats truly hate this country and want to see it destroyed.
Posted by: mac ||
10/06/2006 17:42 Comments ||
Top||
PHOENIX (AP) - A federal appellate court has blocked the enforcement of an Arizona law that requires voters to show identification before casting a ballot and submit proof of citizenship when registering to vote. The ruling from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Thursday came a month before the Nov. 7 general election, and just before Monday's deadline to register. The law had already been used for the Sept. 12 primary and in some municipal elections.
Ninth Circus does it again. Any legitimate voter have trouble on Sept. 12th?
The 2004 law requires that voters at polling places produce government-issued picture ID or two pieces of other non-photo identification specified by the law. Other parts of the law dealt with ineligibility of illegal immigrants to receive some government services and benefits.
Critics said that the law would disenfranchise voters, particularly minorities and the elderly, and that requiring voters to acquire and produce identification would be burdensome in time, money and effort.
State Attorney General Terry Goddard said in a statement that he plans to ask the full 9th Circuit Court or the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse the decision. Secretary of State Jan Brewer, who has defended the law as a protection against voter fraud, said she hopes the decision is reversed ``very quickly.'' ``I'm very concerned about the confusion that this potentially will create in the upcoming election, with the retraining of all the poll workers and the re-education of the public so close to Nov. 7,'' Brewer said.
The law has been challenged in federal court by groups including the Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, the League of Women Voters, the Navajo Nation, the Arizona Civil Liberties Union, the Arizona Advocacy Network and the Mexican-American Legal and Educational Fund.
All the usual suspects.
Posted by: Steve White ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
In case anybody hasn't been paying attention for the last 30 years or so, the PRIMARY reason you need to vote Conservative is because of Judicial appointments.
#2
The court system has been subverted by leftists. It no longer balances our system of laws. It distorts it. When direct mandates of the people, like state ballot initiatives are overturned, this is a disruption of democracy. Nothing should be more sacred than a direct mandate of the voting populace. They pay the taxes to keep the system running. This judicial system needs a complete overhaul. It is absolutely foolish to allow one simpleton in robes to bring to a halt our entire sytem of law and order.
#3
This ruling is an absolute disgrace. How can democracy present itself as the "will of the people" if there are not adequate safeguards in place to ensure that voice isn't squelched by those that would cheat the polls?
Doctors and nurses in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country, can no longer perform female genital cutting, a senior Health Ministry official said yesterday. Some Indonesian communities encourage parents to cut parts of a newborn daughter's clitoris although the country's Islamic groups are in dispute over such non-therapeutic practices.
Sri Hermiyanti, who heads the ministry's family health directorate, said symbolic female circumcisions that do not involve physical damaging of the child still could be carried out. "Hurting, damaging, incising, cutting the clitoris are not allowed. These acts violate the reproductive rights of these girls and harm their organs," said the doctor, adding the announcement has been circulated to health workers since April.
Posted by: Fred ||
10/06/2006 00:00 ||
Comments ||
Link ||
[1 views]
Top|| File under:
#1
"...Islamic groups are in dispute over such non-therapeutic practices..."
It's a world gone mad. What the hell words are we going to use when confronted with actual non-therapeutic practices?
#2
"Symbolic circumcisiom" is okay, but just not the real thing? Such a progressive culture they've got there in Indonesia. "Henceforth we only pretend to mutilate the young girl".
Doctors and nurses can no longer perform the procedure. This is good. But what happens if muzzie mom and dad decide to take the kid to Larry The Halal Butcher or simply do it themselves? What penalty, if any?
Sigh.
Posted by: Mark Z ||
10/06/2006 7:16 Comments ||
Top||
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
The chief of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice in Madinah, Suleiman ibn Saleh Al-Tuwaijeri, has dismissed media reports of the heavy-handedness of certain commission members as unfounded and contrary to the facts. Al-Tuwaijeri made the comments while replying to questions directed at him at "the 18th Session of the Principals and Administrative Directors of Schools" at the College of Teachers in Madinah on Monday. "The reports about the commission in some newspapers are incorrect and lack credibility as they were quoting out of context and blowing things out of proportion in order to tarnish the image of the commission," he said. 
The number of Sri Lankan maids escaping their sponsors has risen significantly since the onset of Ramadan, sources at the country's embassy told The Peninsula yesterday. "We are receiving three to four runaway maids on an average a day since the past week," a source at the mission said. They are mainly complaining of overwork and lack of rest and sleep and want to return home. The number of runaway maids usually increases during Ramadan because most of them are made to work for more than 18 hours a day. The average number of runaway maids was almost 10 a week before Ramadan, said the mission source.
SYLHET, Oct 4: A young man was today awarded life term for throwing acid on college girl in Islampur village of Companyganj upazila in September last year, reports UNB.
PHOENIX (AP) - A federal appellate court has blocked the enforcement of an Arizona law that requires voters to show identification before casting a ballot and submit proof of citizenship when registering to vote. The ruling from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Thursday came a month before the Nov. 7 general election, and just before Monday's deadline to register. The law had already been used for the Sept. 12 primary and in some municipal elections.
