Article

2003-02-26 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-02-26 09:56 am|| || Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Did the pot that got tossed through his window have a peace sign painted on it?

Posted by tu3031 2003-02-26 08:08:11|| 2003-02-26 08:08:11|| Front Page Top

#2 Ha-ha!! Actually, he should make some food for these ingrates, and add some of his special sauce....

Posted by CrazyCanuck 2003-02-26 08:26:52|| 2003-02-26 08:26:52|| Front Page Top

#3 Within free societies we debate and argue...
...to no end, which is what usually brings down civilizations or at the very least bogs down institutions.

Posted by RW 2003-02-26 16:49:48|| 2003-02-26 16:49:48|| Front Page Top

#4 To no end? The institutions of democracy serve to channel conflict so that it doesn't become violent. It seems to me that civilisation means solving political problems by debate and argument rather than murder and rape. If debate and argument bring down civilization then why have elections and deliberative bodies and juries? Debates and arguments are the fields of play in the competition of ideas.

Posted by phil 2003-02-26 17:04:19|| 2003-02-26 17:04:19|| Front Page Top

#5 "I still don't think it's a good thing to exclude entire groups of people based on their nationality."

Agreed, it's a wide brush tarring a lot of people. Still, it's fair to say most people prefer to act like part of the herd. It's legitimate to target a people, if only to stir those with original perspectives to stick their heads above the parapet.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-02-26 18:26:01|| 2003-02-26 18:26:01|| Front Page Top

#6 I think that our discussion of the incident the other day was good. After all, it is the leaders of France and Germany that brought on the primary issue (how do deal with the Iraqi situation). We should not be discriminating this way. On another note, what kind of "herbs" were thrown in the pot through the window?

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-02-26 13:36:07|| 2003-02-26 13:36:07|| Front Page Top

#7 Basil and Thyme?
Maybe the guy just wanted to improve the taste of Danish pizzas? Or he was a pissed off business neighbor. The story is circulating in Germany now and tourists may think about heading elsewhere. Denmark has many islands.
Although I think Turkey may be sunnier and a lot cheaper this summer...

Posted by True German Ally 2003-02-26 14:16:39|| 2003-02-26 14:16:39|| Front Page Top

#8 I read the discussion from the other day as well and, even though you bring up some good points, I believe you're missing the important ones.

For one thing, what this guy is doing is issuing a statement. I don't hardly believe that he thinks that he can influence German and French foreign policy this way. And take into account that he's basically bankrupting himself to make this statement and I have to admire his principled stand.

As to "generalizations", and don't get me wrong on this one, TGA, I know more and more good Germans that aren't too happy about Schroder and it warms my heart every time I hear of another one, we can blather on about how "not all [insert nationality here] are bad, so how can we possibly issue a blanket statement about their nation?" until we turn blue in the face, it won't change this simple fact:

Nations are ruled by their governments and nations will therefore, naturally and logically, have to be treated according to those governments' behavior, no matter how many 'good' or 'bad' citizens live in said countries.

There were lots of good Germans during WWII as well, yet, thankfully, that didn't keep us from entering a war with all of them, based on the "blanket generalization" that Germany was bad.

Or how about Iraq? I guess we might as well pull our troops back, because I KNOW that there are good Iraqis who hate Saddam, so who am I to issue a blanket generalization saying that we have to go to war against them?

I wish you all the best of luck in getting Schroder kicked unceremoniously out of office, TGA, but until you do, you'll have to live with the fact that we have to behave according to who IS in control of Germany, not who we'd LIKE to control Germany.

Posted by Emperor Misha I 2003-02-26 14:59:26|| [nicedoggie.net/] 2003-02-26 14:59:26|| Front Page Top

#9 I certainly share the sentiment about Germany and France, but in a free society you don't get to discriminate against people for their nationality. I'm always game for making fun of the French (especially when they make it so easy) but the policy debate is one of ideas and should take place in a way that no one is deprived of their rights. After all this is what we wish for the Iraqi people (and all people). Within free societies we debate and argue; outside of free societies we bomb and infiltrate special forces...

Posted by phil 2003-02-26 16:38:22|| 2003-02-26 16:38:22|| Front Page Top

#10 "I still don't think it's a good thing to exclude entire groups of people based on their nationality."

I see nothing wrong with a private owner of a business electing who he does business with...at least he is honest about it and clear about his motivations being ones of political disagreement rather than racism. It is hardly like such an act can be proven to be exerting unusual hardship on French and German people, like the situation was for blacks in the South back in the day.

Posted by Lizard_King 2003-02-26 22:56:16|| 2003-02-26 22:56:16|| Front Page Top

#11 Hey wait a minute here. I'm very anti-French and anti-German these days, but this guy is as out of line as was that restaurant in SKor that said "Americans Not Welcome Here." I remember many people here, including me, being very pissed about that.

I sympathise with the man, but he'd do better by sticking a big ol' Stars and Stripes in his window...

Posted by R. McLeod 2003-02-27 02:41:03|| 2003-02-27 02:41:03|| Front Page Top

#12 Phil,
Discussion is all well and good,but at what point do you think talk is no longer viable and a waste of time.

Posted by raptor 2003-02-27 06:19:57|| 2003-02-27 06:19:57|| Front Page Top

#13 Raptor: it depends. These Palestinians who are blowing up their children to commit mass murder certainly believe talk is no longer viable and a waste of time. Imagine of they had chosen to have a non-violent movement rather than one terror.

The great achievement of the Western democratic system was that it offered peaceful and non-violent means of resolving conflicts, as opposed to tribal vendettas, etc.
It is a different story of course when you're dealing with dictatorships. What is the line from the Untouchables: you get farther with a loaded gun and a kind word than just a kind word.

RW said above "...to no end, which is what usually brings down civilizations or at the very least bogs down institutions." I totally disagree. I want my institutions bogged down: it's called separation of powers and checks and powers etc. And far from bringing down civilizations, I thought that our system of deliberation and tolerance of dissent has been the root of our strength and what makes our way of life worth defending.

If we're talking about the UN: The French and the Germans are fools who don't know how to deal with dictators. Of course their diplomatic strategy is a waste of time, just as it was in Bosnia. It's way past time to act in Iraq.

But if I meet a Frenchman on the street I'm not going to spit on him or punch him or ban him from my business because I think talk is a waste of time. I'll just go on my way and let him go his.

Posted by phil 2003-02-27 07:30:25|| 2003-02-27 07:30:25|| Front Page Top

07:52 raptor
07:50 Frank G
07:35 raptor
07:30 phil
07:28 raptor
07:18 raptor
07:04 raptor
06:49 raptor
06:44 raptor
06:19 raptor
06:01 raptor
04:40 True German Ally
03:48 RW
02:51 R. McLeod
02:47 R. McLeod
02:44 R. McLeod
02:41 R. McLeod
02:32 anon
00:59 Patrick W
00:21 Bill
23:35 badanov
23:23 Anonymous
23:21 Anonymous
23:17 Anonymous