Article

2006-02-27 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Dan Darling 2006-02-27 02:55|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Germans had the best system, because until recently they didn't give 'Guest Workers' citizenship and therefore could send them back to their home country.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-02-27 03:35|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-02-27 03:35|| Front Page Top

#2 "All the burden of change is placed on the immigrant." Damn straight. That's where it always should have been. Why should those who already live someplace have to change their standards and lifestyles to accommodate unwanted interlopers? If what it takes to get this across to the Muslims is deporting most of them from Europe, so be it. That's better than some of the 20th Century's other alternatives.

Posted by mac 2006-02-27 07:37|| 2006-02-27 07:37|| Front Page Top

#3 Nobody is being forced to immigrate to Europe with a gun to their head. It's a privilege, not a right, and there most certainly should be rules. Same in the US, our biggest advantage is that we don't let them group up like in europe.

Posted by Hupoluger Jaimp3665 2006-02-27 08:36|| 2006-02-27 08:36|| Front Page Top

#4 HJ? our biggest advantage is that we don't let them group up like in europe.

Hmmm...never heard of Little Italy, Chinatown, Little Odessa? Not even considering the barrio.

Posted by Crort Ebbeatch5002 2006-02-27 09:15|| 2006-02-27 09:15|| Front Page Top

#5 Or telephones and the internet.

Posted by ed 2006-02-27 09:17|| 2006-02-27 09:17|| Front Page Top

#6 It is a start.

Both HJ and CE have valid points. Some immigrants tend to bunch up when they get over here, since familiarity is wanted. But, unlike Europe, they do get out of the hoods to work and go to school and mix with the general population. Further generations are americanized and move away.

Posted by mmurray821 2006-02-27 09:27|| 2006-02-27 09:27|| Front Page Top

#7 It is the end of multiculturalism in Europe. Western civilization is dying and Islam will be the one left standing.

Posted by Perfessor 2006-02-27 09:34|| 2006-02-27 09:34|| Front Page Top

#8 Maybe. But I for one am not going down without a fight.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-27 09:44|| 2006-02-27 09:44|| Front Page Top

#9 It seems to me ending multiculturalism is the first step to recovery for Europe. It's certainly more than I expected of them, and a step in the right direction.

Immigrants take 3 generations to become Americans. The Euros problem is they don't know how to produce second and third generation immigrants because their nationhood is based on blood not brains as in the U. S.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 09:51|| 2006-02-27 09:51|| Front Page Top

#10 And this forgets the existence of other cultures, who for their own part have no desire to be forced under sharia...

Whether it is the West that prevails or another non-Islamist culture, so be it.

Posted by Edward Yee 2006-02-27 09:54|| http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]">[http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2006-02-27 09:54|| Front Page Top

#11 Yeah, Edward I'd be just as happy if some sub-Saharan culture overcame Islam and the west rather than the west overcoming them.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 09:57|| 2006-02-27 09:57|| Front Page Top

#12 But make no mistake: they're no longer willing to tolerate a European melting pota broadly multicultural societywhere different cultures live by widely different norms.

Uh, that's not a melting pot.

Posted by BH 2006-02-27 10:10|| 2006-02-27 10:10|| Front Page Top

#13 Immigrants take 3 generations to become Americans.

Oh really? How do you define "American" then? You gotta be careful about broad generalizations. Some cultures assimilate faster than others. I am an example.

The Germans had the best system, because until recently they didn't give 'Guest Workers' citizenship and therefore could send them back to their home country.

Germans didn't allow dual citizenships (and still don't I would imagine). If you decided to take German citizenship, you had to give up the other one. You'd be surprised how many people chose not to give up their original citizenship because presumably they had too much to lose.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 13:10|| 2006-02-27 13:10|| Front Page Top

#14 Ending multiculturalism and the immigration problem are only a part of Europe's crisis. A big part, but only part, nontheless.

Before they can be considered to be on the road to recovery, they have to cure themselves of the cradle to grave socialism that infects them. This system - which removes essentially all risk and stress from life for most people and has replaced the family as the essential organizational unit of society - has resulted in birthrates which are effectively suicidal.

The US is partly to blame - by footing the lion's share of the Cold War we enabled Euroland to spend large amounts of their GDP on socialist programs they would NEVER have been able to afford if we had insisted they had spent more what it took to defend themselves from the Soviet Empire.

Now they're addicted (literally so) to a life where as long as you do some minimum in life and don't commit a mojor felony the government does basically everything for you and you have little or no risk in life. Never have to worry about health care, never have to worry about education, take 7 years to get out of college, never (once hired to your 35 hour a week functionary job) have to worry about getting let go, retire at 55 and live 25 more years with a hefty pension and without working so you don't have to depend on your family (and therefore don't need to have one) - these are not things that will be given up without street rioting, as we have seen. But you cannot sustain a society which spend 25 years in its youth travelling and bumming around as a student, 25 years working in a half-assed fashion, and 25 years in old age not working and attempting to be pretend-rich on other people's money. Such a society actively discourages people from breeding.

Dealing with the immigration thing is vitally important to Europe's survival. But if they don't soon jettison a socialist model which goes to absurd lengths to eliminate risk and stress and move to a more capitalist American style one which puts more emphasis onto family and individual effort and incorporates risk as a part of decision making, all of the immigration laws in the world won't stop them from having a demographic collapse with 50-75 years.

Posted by no mo uro 2006-02-27 15:07|| 2006-02-27 15:07|| Front Page Top

#15 Now they're addicted (literally so) to a life where as long as you do some minimum in life and don't commit a mojor felony the government does basically everything for you and you have little or no risk in life.

If all they're doing is the minimum in life, and with the GDP of western Europe almost equal to that of the US, that sort of tells you something doesn't it?

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 15:53|| 2006-02-27 15:53|| Front Page Top

#16 Um, what that be, Rafael?

Plz, do explain.

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 16:02|| 2006-02-27 16:02|| Front Page Top

#17 You're certainly smart enough to figure it out.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 16:10|| 2006-02-27 16:10|| Front Page Top

#18 I'm not, so please humor me.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 16:13|| 2006-02-27 16:13|| Front Page Top

#19 What, you want me to do your thinking for you? How European.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 16:16|| 2006-02-27 16:16|| Front Page Top

#20 You posted a brain fartlet.

I asked for an explanation.

You get snippy.

NS echoes my simple request.

You run away spouting disingenuous spittle.

How am I doing so far?

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 16:20|| 2006-02-27 16:20|| Front Page Top

#21 No, you are ambiguous (or nuanced). So why not spell out what you mean?

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 16:21|| 2006-02-27 16:21|| Front Page Top

#22 crickets.

That's why it takes three generations. You have to learn how to say what you mean and mean what you say.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-02-27 16:33|| 2006-02-27 16:33|| Front Page Top

#23 I have come to think that the sound of crickets is Western-style seething.

Either that or it's the sound of someone desperately cherry-picking links to make an obscure or inane point.

Rafael - initially I meant no overt disrespect, just piqued curiosity - since the number of articles I've read over the last year or so, including from the EU themselves, indicates they are in ~~deep kimchi~~ trouble - and it's getting worse at an accelerating rate - especially the economic anchor of the EU, Germany.

A quick sampling from RB - which means it's only skimming what posters thought would be interesting to the 'Burg:

06-02-15 Germany's Economy Treading Water

06-01-13 Europe's record on innovation 50 years behind US

05-11-25 German crisis of confidence 'getting worse'

05-11-13 Merkel curs and runs on tax relief

05-11-01 German retail sales fall again

05-10-24 World economy's eggs all in US consumer's basket

05-04-18 We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story. (lol)

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 16:53|| 2006-02-27 16:53|| Front Page Top

#24 BTW - I don't want Europe to fail, I want the EU bureaucracy to stop being power-snarfing anti-democratic morons who legislate their member states into poverty via idiotic regressive regs and for the member states to stop their asinine devolution into socialistsic Nana-State oblivion.

That would be nice, IMHO.

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 17:01|| 2006-02-27 17:01|| Front Page Top

#25 Nana = Nanny, of course, Sheesh.

I've gotta go, so you can castigate me in absentia, lol. :-)

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 17:02|| 2006-02-27 17:02|| Front Page Top

#26 initially I meant no overt disrespect, just piqued curiosity

Well, okay. I'll assume you're being honest here.

My criticism was aimed at no mo uro's analysis. The simple fact is, someone, somewhere, must be doing something productive in Europe, seeing how their GDP is 7/9ths that of the US (that's excluding Switzerland and eastern Europe). If they're doing this while at the same time behaving like no mo uro described, then that actually makes them look good: doing a half-assed job and almost equalling the world's best economy. Either that, or - if I was an anti-American loon - I could claim that it's the US who is well below its potential (to put it nicely).

So you see, criticize Europeans if you want, but do it fairly and backed up by numbers and with a sense of perspective.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 17:35|| 2006-02-27 17:35|| Front Page Top

#27 That's why it takes three generations. You have to learn how to say what you mean and mean what you say.

Suddenly, a large chunk of 4th generation Americans (and beyond) just lost their American citizenship.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 17:43|| 2006-02-27 17:43|| Front Page Top

#28 Hey, Rafe!
Does it take more of them over there to make that 7/9ths of U.S. GDP?

Posted by mac 2006-02-27 18:19|| 2006-02-27 18:19|| Front Page Top

#29 About 60 million more. But they're doing a half-ass job, only working 25 years, remember? That's still pretty good.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 18:47|| 2006-02-27 18:47|| Front Page Top

#30 Summary stats don't quite capture the reality, Rafael. Our workforce is, proportionally, younger. That means a lower average level of experience (which is somewhat correlated to productivity) but greater projected productivity in the future.

Europe's workforce is overwhelmingly older, nearer retirement and a smaller percentage of what young people they do have are actually well educated and ready to contribute to the future economies there.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-27 19:20|| 2006-02-27 19:20|| Front Page Top

#31 One other point, Rafael. You equate lower working hours with leisure. While it is true the Europeans have a lot more vacation time and holidays -- all of which they scrupulously tend to take, based on my experience -- a good deal of that non-working time has been shown to be invested in other daily chores for which Americans often have automation or services. That was one of the conclusions of the famous Timbro study comparing the EU and US economies.

By the way, re: GDP per capita, the Timbro report synopsis states:

If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.

Lots more detail in the full report at that link.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-27 19:32|| 2006-02-27 19:32|| Front Page Top

#32 Burning an average of 300 Car-B-Ques a day in France probably helps the GDP with new/used car sales part of those numbers.

Posted by Inspector Clueso 2006-02-27 19:38|| 2006-02-27 19:38|| Front Page Top

#33 "My criticism was aimed at no mo uro's analysis."

I know - and I thought you were dead wrong on first, second, and third reads, but wasn't sure so I asked. What you're saying is all about nuanced POV, I'd say, and a general slap (ineffectually, IMHO) at the Great ~~Satan~~ Moron US.

The key (IMHO) is that increasingly we have less and less in common with Europe. They are on a fast-track to irrelevancy and implosion - on all fronts - and damned proud of it. We ain't going there. Period. Whatever that takes.

Perhaps Qanucks are beginning to wake up, given the recent elections, perhaps not. Your uber-sensitivity and contrarian posts, something approaching a reflexive habit these days, I'd say, make me wonder. I'll leave it at that.

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 19:54|| 2006-02-27 19:54|| Front Page Top

#34 A little more from the 2004 Timbro study:

Per capita private consumption is far higher in the USA than in most European countries. American private consumption is 29 per cent higher than in Luxembourg, the country with the highest private consumption in Europe. Compared with the average (EU 15) the difference in consumption is very great. In the USA the average person spends about 9,700 more on consumption annually, a difference of 77 per cent. The average American, in other words, spends nearly twice as much (77 per cent more) on consumption as the average EU citizen.

This is due to a higher level of GDP but also to taxation policy. Allowance for tax differences would reduce these big differences somewhat, but American consumption would still far outweigh its European counterpart ...

Clearly, then, there are very big differences between the American and European economies. A long period of high growth has made the USA far and away the worlds richest region. For several centuries Europe led the world in terms of prosperity and progress.

As little as a hundred years ago, much of the American continent was virgin wilderness. Today, a hundred years later, the USA has completely overtaken Europe to become the unrivalled leader of the world economy. Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come any where near. The really prosperous
American regions have nearly twice the affluence of Europe ...

one often hears it said that, high as the level of the US economy may be, many people there are very poor. As we shall see, however, the poverty concept is a very relative one, and poverty in the USA is associated with a surprisingly high material standard of living.

I won't type in all the figures from the tables, but they are eye-opening.

Posted by lotp 2006-02-27 20:08|| 2006-02-27 20:08|| Front Page Top

#35 the real irony would be if countries held Jews up as a model of assimilation and integration.

Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan 2006-02-27 20:37|| 2006-02-27 20:37|| Front Page Top

#36 Factor in our military spending for the rest of the world, too. Our military spending is 335.7 billion. Top ten spenders spend 584.5 billion. Japan is the nearest to us at 46.7 billion. Check out the map HERE

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2006-02-27 22:32|| 2006-02-27 22:32|| Front Page Top

#37 Kinda hard to see where France and Germany are getting value for the numbers.

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 22:36|| 2006-02-27 22:36|| Front Page Top

#38 Immigrants take 3 generations to become Americans.

Not really - many folks come here because the place where they came from sucked. Listen to callers on talk radio - some of the most openly patriotic pro-American callers are first generation immigrants.

Posted by DMFD 2006-02-27 23:12|| 2006-02-27 23:12|| Front Page Top

#39 What you're saying is all about nuanced POV, I'd say, and a general slap (ineffectually, IMHO) at the Great Satan Moron US.

The slap was at the moronic description provided by no mo uro, disproven by facts no less. You've aligned yourself with him or her, it seems, because, well, as long as it's bashing Europe, it must be okay. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to herd mentality. For the short amount of time I've spent living under communism, I've developed a very sensitive bullshit detector.

As for the study, this statement alone convinced me it's not worth investigating further (well, okay, I might): Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come any where near.
Most Americans? Majority of Europeans? Someone's exaggerating just a little bit.

I'd stay away from per capita measurements anyway. Just as an example, I'd venture that there are more women in the American workforce, versus the European workforce. That means that there is a considerable segment of the population not working. But does this mean that the overall standard of living is therefore lower? Not necessarily.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 23:23|| 2006-02-27 23:23|| Front Page Top

#40 I take back what I said about the Timbro study. Anybody who acknowledges the shortcomings of using GDP as a measure of prosperity, knows what they're talking about. Thanks for the link, lotp.

Posted by Rafael 2006-02-27 23:33|| 2006-02-27 23:33|| Front Page Top

#41 You disproved nothing - you've just taken a pointless position. As for bashing Euros, I "bash" stupid self-defeating behavior, no more.

I'd certainly like them to succeed - and that can only be accomplished if they rid themselves of failed ideologies and crushing bureaucracy. The EU is a disaster.

I believe TGA was the most eloquent - and knowledgable - on the topic and miss his insights immensely.

Posted by .com 2006-02-27 23:58|| 2006-02-27 23:58|| Front Page Top

23:58 .com
23:36 eltoroverde
23:33 Rafael
23:26 C-Low
23:23 Rafael
23:16 Barbara Skolaut
23:13 Barbara Skolaut
23:12 DMFD
23:11 C-Low
22:52 trailing wife
22:49 Glenmore
22:38 JosephMendiola
22:38 Lt. Frank G Drebbin
22:36 .com
22:34 RWV
22:32 Alaska Paul
22:32 JosephMendiola
22:31 trailing wife
22:30 rjschwarz
22:24 rjschwarz
22:23 rjschwarz
22:22 Frank G
22:21 Frank G
22:20 lotp