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2004-05-27 Iraq-Jordan
Iraq Council Slams Plan to Destroy Prison
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Posted by Steve White 2004-05-27 4:33:59 AM|| || Front Page|| [11125 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 This is kinda cool. Bush has offered to destroy and rebuild the prison. With the council saying, "nah, we'll keep it." Bush's acceptance of this will show that the new government really does have the power it needs.
Posted by Anon 2004-05-27 5:12:23 AM||   2004-05-27 5:12:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Bush's proposal is dumb as dirt. What a big waste of money! Let him state the cost, and then we'll see how many Americans support it.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-27 5:31:18 AM||   2004-05-27 5:31:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 No, Mike, it's not a dumb proposal.
If I were an Iraqi, it would always represent the torture and murder done by Saddam and I'd want it gone.
Maybe it could be a museum of the horrors of Saddam.
But President Bush did say that it would be done "only with the approval of the Iraqis."
Clearly, "waste of money" is the latest talking point from the DNC.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 5:57:11 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 5:57:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 A number of Iraqis whose right hands were amputated there don't agree Mike. One told Bush during a recent visit to the White House that he, "wanted to wield the hammer" when Abu Ghraib was destroyed. It's a powerful symbol to Iraqis and its destruction, particularly its destruction by Iraqis, would be a powerful symbolic act.
Posted by AzCat 2004-05-27 9:33:03 AM||   2004-05-27 9:33:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Maybe no one spotted it, but what "human rights activists" are for needing prisons? Must be one that's ACTUALLY concerned about human rights, not Amnesty Int'l, eh? This plays well for Bush and I love it!
Posted by BA  2004-05-27 9:33:58 AM||   2004-05-27 9:33:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Maybe no one spotted it, but what "human rights activists" are for needing prisons? Must be one that's ACTUALLY concerned about human rights, not Amnesty Int'l, eh? This plays well for Bush and I love it!
Posted by BA  2004-05-27 9:34:27 AM||   2004-05-27 9:34:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Hey, Mike -- just how much would it cost, hmmm? Do you know? Or are you just blowing more smoke out your ass?

Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-27 10:22:10 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-27 10:22:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I know that a prison of that size would cost a lot of money and time. A prison is a very expensive facility.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-27 10:45:24 AM||   2004-05-27 10:45:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 If they took the time to destroy every building in which torture took place in Iraq, they wouldn't have many gov't buildings left. They are going to need a prison. Renovate this one and call it good. The notoriety of the place will dissipate in time, providing they don't continue the use of torture.

As the man said, don't be sentimental. It's still just a building, regardless of what happened in it.
Posted by BH 2004-05-27 10:48:20 AM||   2004-05-27 10:48:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Bull, Mike. You just wanted to get your slam in.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-27 10:48:50 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-27 10:48:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 BH, "sentimental?" I wonder how many thousands of Iraqis died there?
And how would you feel if your relative were killed there?
Let's let the Iraqis decide.
President Bush has already indicated that we can afford to tear it down....(even though John Kerry's family may not get food stamps and unemployment benefits because of it--Have they ever been employed?).
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 10:52:16 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 10:52:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 If they keep it, they should keep it as a monument to the victims of Saddam's regime. Hell, I wouldn't even be upset if they had a small section about the Graner's idiots.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-27 10:54:40 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-27 10:54:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 i must agree with Jen here. It IS up to the Iraqis to decide, but it was right of Pres Bush to suggest it.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-27 11:16:36 AM||   2004-05-27 11:16:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Jen: BH, "sentimental?" I wonder how many thousands of Iraqis died there? And how would you feel if your relative were killed there?

sen·ti·men·tal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snt-mntl)
adj.

Characterized or swayed by sentiment.
Affectedly or extravagantly emotional.
Resulting from or colored by emotion rather than reason or realism.
Appealing to the sentiments, especially to romantic feelings: sentimental music.

If you're going to appeal to how I would "feel" about having my relatives killed there, at least spare me the indignation over labelling it a sentimental decision. It is. And I would feel terrible, obviously. But the building didn't kill them - the men inside did. Get rid of them and ensure that those who follow don't use the same methods. I don't believe in haunted houses.
Posted by BH 2004-05-27 11:39:52 AM||   2004-05-27 11:39:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Up to Iraqi's to decide.. and it already has 10's of millions in improvements and upgrades in it since it came under coalition control.
Posted by Capsu78 2004-05-27 11:43:02 AM||   2004-05-27 11:43:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Maybe you don't believe in haunted houses, but the Iraqis are probably more superstititious than we are.
To me, the word "sentimental" evokes feelings and emotions that are fairly trivial, superficial and mostly, nostalgic.
I imagine that what Iraqis feel about the place calls forth something much more profound like rage, fury and hate--is it based on realism to say, "I hate that place because that's where Saddam was free to have us tortured and murdered?"
I think it is.
One man's realism is another man's dead relative.
The only person I can see feeling "sentimental" about the place is Saddam, as in "How I miss having my Palace of Pain!"
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 11:47:34 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 11:47:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 God DAMN IT.

TURN IT INTO FULKIN WALMART!
Posted by JackAssFestival 2004-05-27 12:04:07 PM||   2004-05-27 12:04:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 JAF, I love it! LOL
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 12:08:56 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 12:08:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 a the difference between what a word denotes, and what it connotes.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-27 12:12:13 PM||   2004-05-27 12:12:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Mike Sylwester: I know that a prison of that size would cost a lot of money and time. A prison is a very expensive facility.

I have to agree here. Penitentiaries are expensive to build because of all the things needed to keep inmates in. Everything has to be industrial strength. A medium security state prison facility for 1,600 inmates cost $50m almost a decade ago. We are probably looking at those kinds of numbers for Abu Ghraib's replacement. The only saving grace is that the construction process will employ lots of Iraqis over a couple of years.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-27 12:24:00 PM||   2004-05-27 12:24:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 

JAF - Great Idea!
Then when Wal-Mart goes into Iran, They can attract the customers with window dispalys using the WalMart in Roswell, NM as an example!

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-27 12:27:12 PM||   2004-05-27 12:27:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Quoted from here:

State Correctional Institution— Houtzdale
Location:
Houtzdale, PA

Sq Ft:
57,500

Start/Complete:
November 1993 –
December 1995

Project Cost:
$48,500,000

Contract:
General Contractor

Owner:
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Department of General Services

Architect:
LDA Company (formerly L.D. Astorino & Associates, Limited)

Scope:
Construction of a 1,651-bed, 575,000-sf medium-security prison. The institution, situated on approximately 182-acres, includes 19 separate buildings. Six medium-security housing units and one maximum security housing unit are constructed of precast concrete modular cells. Support buildings include a program services building that houses the health services department, a visitation building, intake/segregation, a 17,000-sf laundry, a 20,000-sf facilities administration building, a 40,000-sf dietary services/kitchen cafeteria, and a 40,000-sf prison industries building that includes metal/wood/fabrication shops. A central plant provides power, steam and hot water to the entire facility. Perimeter security consists of two fence lines and above-grade microwave units in conjunction with an underground geonet detection system.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-27 12:27:28 PM||   2004-05-27 12:27:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Roswell Walmart Closeup

Also : Zhang Fei: Wasn't Sgt. Grainer, of AbuGharib photo fame, a prison guard in Pennsylvania before his reserve unit was sent to Baghdad?
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-27 12:31:44 PM||   2004-05-27 12:31:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Good Lord, people.
Maybe they can pay for it themselves with their oil billions!
I'm with JAF, though-G*ddamit! Turn it into a Walmart!
(One of our finest American products...and filled with Chinese stuff, too!)
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 12:32:49 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 12:32:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Clearly, "waste of money" is the latest talking point from the DNC.

A friendly reminder: the only times DemocRATS complain about government expenditures being a "waste of money" are a) when it's spent on national defense and / or b) when it's spent by Republicans.
Posted by Raj  2004-05-27 12:47:28 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-05-27 12:47:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Jen,
Maybe you don't believe in haunted houses, but the Iraqis are probably more superstititious than we are.

Careful! This is the kind of rationalization the LLLs make: "The Arab world aren't advanced enough for democracy!" They are people, no less than we, and capable of rational thought. I would point out that it was the head of the IGC who first used the word "sentimental".

To me, the word "sentimental" evokes feelings and emotions that are fairly trivial, superficial and mostly, nostalgic.

Common partial usage doesn't narrow the meaning of the word. I might use 10% of the features in my text editor, but that doesn't mean the other 90% don't work.

I imagine that what Iraqis feel about the place calls forth something much more profound like rage, fury and hate--is it based on realism to say, "I hate that place because that's where Saddam was free to have us tortured and murdered?" I think it is.

Again, LLL-think. Try asking them, instead of deciding on your own how they "feel". And by "asking them", I don't mean we need a referendum from the street to chime in on everything we do -- ask the leaders. The head of the council said NO. If the street doesn't like it, let them field a candidate when the elections start.

One man's realism is another man's dead relative.

WTF?! This is one of those things people say in arguments that sound all deep and poignant, but mean absolutely nothing.

The only person I can see feeling "sentimental" about the place is Saddam, as in "How I miss having my Palace of Pain!"

Except "sentimental" means something other than wistful longing. Hating a building and wishing for its destruction because of the things that took place within is no less sentimental.

I agree with your earlier post saying that the Iraqis should decide, but not if you mean that policy should be dictated by the seething masses doing their faggy arm-waving and chanting. The leaders should decide, and from the article it seems that they have said "no".

Posted by BH 2004-05-27 1:02:44 PM||   2004-05-27 1:02:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Raj - Gold star, 58 points including triple-word-score there. Spot on.
Posted by eLarson 2004-05-27 1:11:53 PM||   2004-05-27 1:11:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 BH, one of us is using an imprecise vocabulary.
liberalhawk was closer to the linguistic problem when he cited dennotation and connotation.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-27 1:18:51 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-27 1:18:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Abu Ghraib WalMart. Wet cleanup on aisle six. And we have ways of dealing with shoplifters.
Posted by Sludj 2004-05-27 2:31:32 PM||   2004-05-27 2:31:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 BH: I don't understand why you don't understand that many Iraqis would love to see the place torched and bulldozed. It would feel (yes, I'm using the "F" word here) pretty good to see it totally G-O-N-E. (Remember the toppling of the statue of SH? Remember the reaction?) OTOH, they might feel better turning it into a restructuring project--cleaning, painting, etc., then use it as a prison run the right way. That also would be pyschologically healthy. They should put it to a vote, at least, so they can debate the merits and decide for themselves as a population, instead of having only a few leaders decide.

Other uses: Gut the interior and turn it into a bowling alley? Paintball palace and video game arcade? Disco?
Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-27 5:32:44 PM||   2004-05-27 5:32:44 PM|| Front Page Top

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