Article

2006-05-30 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-30 10:38|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The court said the decision to hand over the data was not founded on an "appropriate legal basis".

How about "The good of the many oughtweights the good of the few".
How's that for an appropriate legal basis?

Posted by bigjim-ky 2006-05-30 10:53|| 2006-05-30 10:53|| Front Page Top

#2 This is just crap, EU law does not apply to the Unites States. We fought for and gained our freedom from europe over 200 years ago. We do not have to comply to any EU court, period!!! The simple truth is when the plane enters US airspace it falls under US law, plain and simple. US law requires it, they must comply or not be allowed to enter the US and or pay the fines. There is no rock and a hard place hear, if the airlines want to do business in the United States they will comply.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-05-30 11:27|| 2006-05-30 11:27|| Front Page Top

#3 Fine. We are already bitchslapping France over the biometric passport thing, we can just make it so that in order to travel to the States you have to have either a visa or a US passport.

If an airline transports someone without the visa or US passport, they bring them back to Europe on their own dime. Trying to find open seats to bring their butts back to the Old Country is more efficient than fining the airlines months later. Trust me, with that policy, they will be vigilant about letting anyone through without the visa.

Doing that will inconvenience a lot of people. That can't be denied. But apparently the EU thinks it's just our problem and not theirs at all.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-05-30 11:30|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2006-05-30 11:30|| Front Page Top

#4 Fuck that! Comply or be gone, end of negotiations. If the EU rep gives you any shit, take him over and rub his nose in what used to bet he WTC.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2006-05-30 11:31|| 2006-05-30 11:31|| Front Page Top

#5 I thought this was another EU on strike article.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-05-30 11:34|| 2006-05-30 11:34|| Front Page Top

#6 Again... it's our border, it's our sovereignty, and you can stay home if you're not willing to come here on our terms. Period.

Posted by Darrell 2006-05-30 11:41|| 2006-05-30 11:41|| Front Page Top

#7 The EU has tough laws on privacy ... ask the multinationals that used to do their European payroll off of databases kept here.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-30 11:41|| 2006-05-30 11:41|| Front Page Top

#8 It is a rock and a hard place for all airlines. US airlines would also have to abide by European laws.

Europe tends to go overboard on matters of protecting personal information. So much so, that I've seen prospective employees explicitly grant permission (in legal language) on their resumes and CVs, for potential employers to use the personal data contained therein for hiring purposes.

In Poland, there was even some question whether a phonebook is legal under the law. Not sure if that was resolved, but for a while you couldn't find a phonebook anywhere for fear of prosecution.

You'd be amazed how much airlines are protected under the law. They basically own you once you strap in. I imagine the law will be adjusted to make it easier for the airlines and to not disrupt passenger traffic.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 11:49|| 2006-05-30 11:49|| Front Page Top

#9 ltop,
Yes, BUT they can't extend their laws into our legal sphere.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-30 11:49|| 2006-05-30 11:49|| Front Page Top

#10 Yes, BUT they can't extend their laws into our legal sphere.
Isn't that the very core of the transnational progressism so much embodied by the EU?

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-05-30 11:51|| 2006-05-30 11:51|| Front Page Top

#11 If an airline transports someone without the visa or US passport, they bring them back to Europe on their own dime.

That's already the rule. That's why airlines check immigration papers prior to boarding, in Europe. They specifically scrutinize the entry visas.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 11:54|| 2006-05-30 11:54|| Front Page Top

#12 I think Desert Blondie's got it. Refuse US entry. Detain and hold them at airport until a return seat is provided by the air carrier. They will soon reach a resolution. Info will be provided as requested, or that individual won't board in Europe. They can't stand that kind of pain long.

Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-05-30 11:55|| 2006-05-30 11:55|| Front Page Top

#13 Nor can we. Refusing landing rights would help in bringing this to an impasse, forcing both the EU and the US to come up with a resolution. Neither can afford the economic impact.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-05-30 11:59|| 2006-05-30 11:59|| Front Page Top

#14 There's a simple fix. Instead of the airline providing the information, the passenger does it, signing a waiver indemnifying the airlines involved.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 12:01|| 2006-05-30 12:01|| Front Page Top

#15 Yes, BUT they can't extend their laws into our legal sphere.

BUT that's not what they're doing. They are determining how data gathered in Europe may be used. It's their right to do so. It's our right to dish out the consequences.

If they want to do this we should recall our ambassador from each country that refuses to comply, and of course refuse entry to any such aircraft. We should turn the embassy into a consulate and have diplomatic dealings only with Le Grande Europe. I'm fed up with them and paying for their defence also. Renegotiate NATO with Le Grande Europe, maybe, maybe not.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-05-30 12:02|| 2006-05-30 12:02|| Front Page Top

#16 Refuse US entry. Detain and hold them at airport

That's too late. The idea is to get them off the airplane before they blow it up or hijack the plane and ram it into something. No info, no permission to enter airspace.

Posted by ed 2006-05-30 12:12|| 2006-05-30 12:12|| Front Page Top

#17 For an airliner to enter the US is must leave from an FAA now TCA certified airport. If the EU wants to protect their data it is really their call, I respect that. They can fly all they want, just not to the US. Take the airport cert away. This will crush the international business that deals with the US. The big Euro airlines and businesses will realize the almighty buck will stop with this law and they will find a way to support sharing the data.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-05-30 12:32|| 2006-05-30 12:32|| Front Page Top

#18 What it will do is make Gander the busiest airport in the world.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-05-30 12:50|| 2006-05-30 12:50|| Front Page Top

#19 Rafael, there are currently 27 countries whose nationals can travel to the US without a visa. The overwhelming majority of them are in Europe and are EU members. Their nationals have been able to come over by just flashing a passport.

Change it to the same situation faced by the overwhelming majority of the rest of the world, if the EU thinks they don't have to provide us with that information. Trust me, I know several Russians of my acquaintance who wish they could just take off on a whim to visit America like other Europeans can.

If anything, it will increase the airlines' workload a bit, and you know damn well they'll be squawking about that to their respective governments. Throw in all the people who are used to just rounding up their passports before boarding a plane who now have to deal with our ultra-efficient bureaucrats in the embassies and consulates for a visa, and I'm sure the EU will come up with some compromise solution that saves face while allowing them to stand up to the belligerent, imperialist Yankee pigs.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-05-30 13:02|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2006-05-30 13:02|| Front Page Top

#20 If push comes to shove, and we deny landing rights, they'll just have to find some other revenue source to service the debt on those shiny new A380s.

Posted by Mike 2006-05-30 13:09|| 2006-05-30 13:09|| Front Page Top

#21 Gwad - An A-380 disgorging a load into customs and immigration. Will they have port-a-potties in long rows for them?

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-30 13:13|| 2006-05-30 13:13|| Front Page Top

#22 DB - I agree completely. end the visa wavier program for the EU and they will come around.

Posted by CrazyFool 2006-05-30 13:15|| 2006-05-30 13:15|| Front Page Top

#23 well, the article only says we expect them to deliver names, addresses, and credit card numbers. Isn't this the same information required from American air travelers? What's good for us will have to be good for Europeans.

Posted by banned from rantburg 2006-05-30 13:20|| 2006-05-30 13:20|| Front Page Top

#24 A thread yesterday pointed out in detail how the French are really enemies. I think this calls for visas.

Posted by SR-71 2006-05-30 14:45|| 2006-05-30 14:45|| Front Page Top

#25 Look on the positive side.
A passenger will have two options:
1) Use a EU airline and have major delays when they reach the US
2) Use a US airline ( which doesn't have to comply with the directive) and be fast tracked through customs.
I know which one I would use.
Expect the squeals from EU airlines in 3.......2...

Posted by tipper 2006-05-30 16:50|| 2006-05-30 16:50|| Front Page Top

#26 Visas are fine, except their only effect would be to shut out the regular folk. Business execs and those with loads of cash would still get in.

That's how it already works. To get a visa, all you have to do is present your bank book. If the balance is above a certain amount, and you don't have any other red flags, you get the visa.

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 18:50|| 2006-05-30 18:50|| Front Page Top

#27 Business executives tend not to blow up airplanes, or crash them into iconic buildings, Rafael. But business execs will also likely choose to fly American airlines under the circumstances, if that will get them through Customs more quickly. Win, win, I think. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2006-05-30 19:26|| 2006-05-30 19:26|| Front Page Top

#28 Really, Rafael? Just flashing the bankbook doesn't cut it anymore.

Most visitors (tourist, business or medical) have to go to a personal interview, provide proof that they have will leave (return ticket, family ties back home), and proof they won't be a drain on the US guvmint financially, that's true.

But they also have to provide biometrics such as fingerprints. Refusal to do so if asked? You ain't getting in until you do.

That's not all.

If you are a guy between the ages of 16 and 45, or anyone over the age of 16 from six countries designated as state sponsors of terror, you have to fill out a Supplemental Nonimmigrant Visa Application, Form DS-157 to tell us more about your travel plans.

That's in addition to a $100 processing fee, a possible visa issuance fee, and of course, the two photographs that look like you just got out of jail.

Somehow, I don't think the good citizens of Europe will be so happy when they have to go through all that crap. But it's their choice.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2006-05-30 21:01|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2006-05-30 21:01|| Front Page Top

#29 It's not their choice, it's their betters choice.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-05-30 21:10|| 2006-05-30 21:10|| Front Page Top

#30 Well, that's true. You were always checked for red flags. But absent any abnormalities, your financial status (and employment as well), is usually the deciding factor.* And in most cases, let's face it, rich people will get the visa.

* along with a well-put-together application, which should always include travel plans and a letter of invitation from a relative or company.

I'm also ignoring the quota rules, and the "I simply don't like the looks of you" factor.

Bear in mind, Europeans are used to bureaucracy and waiting in lines so they will do it if required. Not a big deal. After all, this is the land of national id booklets*, and 500-page constitutions.

*or at least that's what I remember

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 21:28|| 2006-05-30 21:28|| Front Page Top

#31 Just fly to Mexico City and walk across.

Posted by RWV 2006-05-30 21:54|| 2006-05-30 21:54|| Front Page Top

#32 DB's knowledge/experience just plain smokes mine. I'd believe her, Raphael :-)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-05-30 22:12|| 2006-05-30 22:12|| Front Page Top

#33 Frank, I don't doubt she knows her stuff, I can tell by her comments. Immigration's been my thing for 20 years, too though, and I've seen much. Probably too much in some cases. I'm not up to speed on the latest changes however (I'm no longer involved), so I yield to her on the matter.

The system is not ironclad as people would like to think, but overall, I think it works and is fair (to those that play by the rules).

Posted by Rafael 2006-05-30 22:31|| 2006-05-30 22:31|| Front Page Top

#34 welcome back if you didn't get my first shot :-)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-05-30 23:04|| 2006-05-30 23:04|| Front Page Top

08:37 Anon1
00:11 JosephMendiola
00:02 C-Low
23:49 JosephMendiola
23:23 DarthVader
23:21 DarthVader
23:20 RD
23:06 Frank G
23:04 Frank G
22:54 Frank G
22:46 RD
22:35 Frank G
22:31 Rafael
22:30 Frank G
22:28 Frank G
22:23 Frank G
22:22 Seafarious
22:15 3dc
22:14 Besoeker
22:14 DMFD
22:14 Frank G
22:12 Frank G
22:10 Frank G
22:06 3dc