Article

2007-07-01 India-Pakistan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Fred 2007-07-01 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11134 views ] Top

#1 I'm beginning to think that India ranks along side Israel in terms of showing admirableif not almost foolishrestraint when it comes to how they deal with their Islamic neighbor's incessant crapulence. It remains a source of deep shame that America showed such lackluster response to the terrorist assault upon India's parliament so soon on the heels of our own 9-11 attacks. That Pakistan was not immediately converted into smoking glass remains almost a mystery.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 04:59|| 2007-07-01 04:59|| Front Page Top

#2 Zen,
Reasons for Indian restraint:
1) There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan, I think.
2) Pakistan has nukes too

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-07-01 07:52|| 2007-07-01 07:52|| Front Page Top

#3 Assam terrorism is tribal and communist.

Posted by ed 2007-07-01 08:31|| 2007-07-01 08:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Yeah, they should cut the crapulence and slit there throats. I know you didn't say that. So in the future remember, I didn't say that you said that. Got that? Hammerhead?

SHARK WEEK CONTINUES

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 09:43|| 2007-07-01 09:43|| Front Page Top

#5 Take your shark week production somewhere else, will ya? It starts to be annoying and contributes nothing of value, whatsoever.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 09:59|| 2007-07-01 09:59|| Front Page Top

#6 You wait 2x4, it keeps the tank clean.
I'm doing it for you.

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 10:08|| 2007-07-01 10:08|| Front Page Top

#7 BTW is that chum in your pocket for me?

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 10:11|| 2007-07-01 10:11|| Front Page Top

#8 Second the motion, SHARK WEEK is just annoying, no productive value at all.

Knock it off.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-07-01 10:48|| 2007-07-01 10:48|| Front Page Top

#9 Fuck off redneck, I got trolls to kill.

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 11:08|| 2007-07-01 11:08|| Front Page Top

#10 Scares you a little don't it, in your little part of your kook heart. Deal with it. Im here, and it's

SHARK WEEK!

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 11:10|| 2007-07-01 11:10|| Front Page Top

#11 You know, shipman, suicide is not really the best moral choice. It takes some effort, granted... but even you can become a decent human being.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 11:13|| 2007-07-01 11:13|| Front Page Top

#12 I disagree. So far it appears to have value. The mania seems to be toning down and that, so far as I can tell, is the purpose of sharkweek.

If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 11:18|| 2007-07-01 11:18|| Front Page Top

#13 LOL! You jumped me the first day you were here. I laughed.

FOAD
HAND

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 11:19|| 2007-07-01 11:19|| Front Page Top

#14 Well now damn, A n00b MikeN is figure it out!

2x4 buddy are you remember having your ass handed to you your first day?

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 11:21|| 2007-07-01 11:21|| Front Page Top

#15 13 of course was for 2x4 n00B.

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 11:23|| 2007-07-01 11:23|| Front Page Top

#16 If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims

Said who?

the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims

We do?

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 11:25|| 2007-07-01 11:25|| Front Page Top

#17 Shipman, drink less, it will do ya good.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 11:27|| 2007-07-01 11:27|| Front Page Top

#18 said who?

Have you ever read the comments on Rantburg?

we do?

Have you ever read the articles on Rantburg?

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 11:43|| 2007-07-01 11:43|| Front Page Top

#19 Mike N, this is what you stated:
If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.

Please be specific as the part about American black muslims is concerned. Who said that and please link.

As for the radical immigrant muslims, as far as I know, we don't kill them, detaining and booting them out goes on so so.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 11:54|| 2007-07-01 11:54|| Front Page Top

#20 You do understand that Muslim and Islam includes all followers of Islam and I'm also certain that you are well aware that a portion of our domestic black population is Allanist.

If you don't know who has been calling for the removal of Americas Muslims, you're not paying attention to the comments.

Okay, so we're not killing any domestic terrorists yet. Slap me for it, but expect to be reminded when one of them decides he doesn't want to be arrested.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 12:03|| 2007-07-01 12:03|| Front Page Top

#21 I am a busy man. Please be helpful and point out the specific quote.

Of course, question is what would you do (or agree what would need to be done) in the case that black American muslims will become radicalized, you know...splodeys and that?

My opinion is that Islam has to go. The sooner the better. Please note that I don't say muslims. Islam. How, I don't know, but it is on my mind every day. If we don't get a rid of it, then our children will curse us and dark ages are to follow.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 12:17|| 2007-07-01 12:17|| Front Page Top

#22 FWIW, the US has already suffered one attack by Black Muslims: the series of sniper killings by John Allen Muhammed.

What we did in that case was to apprehend, try and convict him of multiple murders.

There was evidence that the killing spree was generally motivated by a long racial/religious hatred he'd built up. But it wasn't the work of a wider terror group and so did not get that treatment. That is no doubt due in part to the fact that Farahkan disavowed the killings early on.

Changing his name to Muhammad in October 2001, he was a member of the Nation of Islam for a time; friends say Muhammad helped provide security for Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in 1995, but Farrakhan has publicly distanced himself and his organization from Muhammad's actions[1]. It was theorized that Muhammad left the Nation of Islam around 1999 and then joined Jamaat al-Fuqra, a black militant Islamic group[2]. However, later investigations indicated that he moved out of the country and spent time in Antigua during this period, apparently engaging in credit card and immigration document fraud activities. It was during this time that he became close with a young teenage boy, Lee Boyd Malvo, who later became his partner in the serial killings.

After his arrest, authorities also claimed that Muhammad admitted that he admired and modeled himself after Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, and approved of the September 11, 2001 attacks. One of Malvo's psychiatric witnesses testified in his trial that Muhammad had indoctrinated him into believing that the proceeds of the extortion attempt would be used to begin a new nation of only young, "pure" black people somewhere in Canada.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-01 12:24|| 2007-07-01 12:24|| Front Page Top

#23 FWIW, the US has already suffered one attack by Black Muslims: the series of sniper killings by John Allen Muhammed

And what about the zebra killings? I'd mark this as the original islamic (though the NOI is fringe in that regards) mass murder.

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-07-01 12:30|| 2007-07-01 12:30|| Front Page Top

#24 2x4, I'm on a cell phone so I can't do the cut and paste thingy. I had a discussion about this in the comments here at the burg on Thursday I believe it was. I'm sure it was by far the most heavily commented thread that day. If you care to take a look, it will be an easy find.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 12:30|| 2007-07-01 12:30|| Front Page Top

#25 It remains a source of deep shame that America showed such lackluster response to the terrorist assault upon India's parliament so soon on the heels of our own 9-11 attacks.

If you had access to intelligence (the information kind), an American 'robust response' was what Al Qaeda expected.

Posted by Pappy 2007-07-01 12:32|| 2007-07-01 12:32|| Front Page Top

#26 Shipman, drink less, it will do ya good.

What part of fuck off don't you understand? n00b?

SHARK WEEK CONTINUES!

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 12:37|| 2007-07-01 12:37|| Front Page Top

#27 By the way, ever consider upgrading to a 2x6?

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 12:40|| 2007-07-01 12:40|| Front Page Top

#28 anon5089, you're right about the zebra killings. I guess I mentally file those in the "1960s-1970s radical black group" folder rather than the "black Muslim jihad" folder, but in the case of the Nation of Islam those categories merge.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-01 12:47|| 2007-07-01 12:47|| Front Page Top

#29 My opinion is that Islam has to go. The sooner the better.

Kook. Yawls got a Stormfront ID? 55 year old gun nutz with computerz.

Posted by Shipman 2007-07-01 12:50|| 2007-07-01 12:50|| Front Page Top

#30 Shipman, I missed Shark Week last year. Do you actually stay awake an continue posting for the entire week?

Posted by Super Hose 2007-07-01 13:18|| 2007-07-01 13:18|| Front Page Top

#31 If anyone, for even a second, thinks we can go into the inner city and start detaining, killing or booting out American black Muslims the same way we do radical immigrant Muslims, they need to have their head checked.

Mike N., your adherence to "civil well-reasoned discourse" is much appreciated. One very simple question:

Do you agree or disagree that shari'a law and its practice should be banned as a violation of human rights?

Of course, question is what would you do (or agree what would need to be done) in the case that black American muslims will become radicalized, you know...splodeys and that?

As lotp noted, this has already happened. While its scale has not wholly exceeded the capacity of our law enforcement, we still remain vulnerable to the Sulejman Talovics of this world. The increasing levels of SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome) represent a horrible degradation in American quality of life. I'll not deny that internment camps or mass deportations wouldn't represent a horrible degradation in the life of American Muslims, but neither will I ignore the fact that a massive number of them consider themselves enemies of America despite dwelling upon our soil.

My opinion is that Islam has to go. The sooner the better. Please note that I don't say muslims. Islam. How, I don't know, but it is on my mind every day. If we don't get a rid of it, then our children will curse us and dark ages are to follow.

I concur, Islam must go. Especially Islamic theocracy, but Islam as a whole is a failed concept that serves only to create misery wherever it goes. America's efforts in Iraq are entirely admirable regarding the importation of democracy to the MME (Muslim Middle East). While the jury's still out with respect to Iraq's successful adoption of democracy, it seems rather clear that this is an experiment we cannot afford to conduct on the sort of repeated basis needed to pacify the entire MME.

This is why, at present, I advocate an end to all nation building and initiating a policy of simply smashing terrorist sponsors and letting them pick up the pieces themselves. As noted above, what we are doing right now will has repercussions for decades, if not centuries. Islam has declared itself a threat to over a thousand years' progress and we are obliged to take them at their word.

Note: So far it appears to have value.

Then you aren't paying attention. It is courteous exchanges with people like Frank G and yourself that go a long way. Preadolescent bullying cuts no ice with me.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 14:55|| 2007-07-01 14:55|| Front Page Top

#32 Zen, I stated a couple days ago and will state again that sharia should not be allowed.

As for radicalized black Muslims, I don't see them being in a higher percentage than radicalized blacks in general, or whites for that matter. After all, whitey has committed his share of terror attacks in this country and so far, blacks come in third by my count. Radicalized blacks are a phenomenon I am only slighly more concerned with than radicalized Asians. What about radicalized white Muslims? Remember Johnny Bin Laden?

As for making Islam go, that's even less possible than humans growing a couple more arms. Genetic engineering might someday make that happen. Removing a major faith is not possible. If anyone has any questions about that last statement, talk to a joo to about it. I suspect they should be able to explain it in short order.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 15:17|| 2007-07-01 15:17|| Front Page Top

#33 Sharia? Not for a f*&king minute. Never said different

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-01 15:23|| 2007-07-01 15:23|| Front Page Top

#34 I stated a couple days ago and will state again that sharia should not be allowed.

All righty then. Please indicate how you are able to decouple shari'a law from Islam. They are one in the same and Muslims certainly will not tolerate any attempts to prevent its practice.

Would you support a ban on all Internet sites that provide the endlessly detailed and often ridiculous fatwan regarding Islamic worship's minutae? Those fatwan represent shari'a law in action.

Most importantly, once shari'a law is banned, what should become of those who oppose it's illegality and continue to practice it?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 15:28|| 2007-07-01 15:28|| Front Page Top

#35 It's 55! Amazing!

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 15:29|| 2007-07-01 15:29|| Front Page Top

#36 Removing a major faith is not possible. If anyone has any questions about that last statement, talk to a joo to about it. I suspect they should be able to explain it in short order.

It's spelled j-e-w, just FYI.

We have to find the way. There were some major religions in the past that don't exist anymore. Judaism persistence is explainable by the match of its moral mooring with universal human values--what Ali Sina calls Golden Rule. No enforcement was necessary to preserve the creed.

Islam, if you look closer, it the 180 degree opposite.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 15:54|| 2007-07-01 15:54|| Front Page Top

#37 Please indicate how you are able to decouple shari'a law from Islam. They are one in the same and Muslims certainly will not tolerate any attempts to prevent its practice

see? This is the kind of facile crap reasoning I was pointing out. Some Islamic followers want Sharia. A majority? All? No, and no, and you can't say it is, because it isn't. That's a Zen Strawman and you know it. Try an intellectually honest argument rather than bumperstickers. I know muslims who practice Sharia as much as my fellow Catholics don't practice birth control. Jeebus!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-01 15:56|| 2007-07-01 15:56|| Front Page Top

#38 Forgive me for sounding like a prominent democrat, but it depends on what you mean by decouple. We can't regulate the human mind. All we can regulate is the consequence human actions. For starters, I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 16:01|| 2007-07-01 16:01|| Front Page Top

#39 Frank, you on one hand equate muslims with Islam and on another you make a distinction between them.

Islam not equals muslims. The fact that some muslims do not want sharia actually may be the path that would lead to its demise, or may be helpful in that regard.

They do not want sharia because of Islam, but despite of it.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 16:04|| 2007-07-01 16:04|| Front Page Top

#40 Mike N, good luck. Islam is like MS Windoze, by design. You can't get a rid of the IE browser, just elect not to use it. But it is a part of the whole and spagettied through it.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 16:11|| 2007-07-01 16:11|| Front Page Top

#41 2x4. Enjoy your quest to make Islam go down the memory hole. Start with Palestine, I'm sure the Joos would appreciate not being under attack everyday of their lives. Before you go spending a lot of effort on it though, you might want to give some thought to technological advances since the last time a religion disappeared. Things like literacy, paper and computers are going to complicate the challenge.

Nice job correcting me on Jew, by the way. How many others have you corrected for spelling it that way?

Thought so.

If you wish to debate me, you'll need more than what you've brought. I won't let you emote your way to victory.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 16:12|| 2007-07-01 16:12|| Front Page Top

#42 your comment in toto made no sense. This sentence: "The fact that some muslims do not want sharia actually may be the path that would lead to its demise, or may be helpful in that regard" did. A wedge between Islamists and muslims* (*- my definition) should be applied as heavily as possible to split away the "moderate muslims". They exist. We can do it

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-01 16:13|| 2007-07-01 16:13|| Front Page Top

#43 I advocate Mosque removal.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2007-07-01 16:14|| 2007-07-01 16:14|| Front Page Top

#44 Mike, when others spell it that way when imitating the haters in sarc remarks, it's understandable. But I object when it is spelled that way in normal discourse. Makes sense?

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 16:17|| 2007-07-01 16:17|| Front Page Top

#45 No

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-01 16:18|| 2007-07-01 16:18|| Front Page Top

#46 I apologize for offended you.

Back to Sharia. "The Church" provides rules for a person to live. These rules can be followed as long as they are permitted within the rules of the state. Christianity learned this, after considerable difficulty, several hundred years ago. Considering Islams relative youth, Islam is learning this right on schedule. And learn it will.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 16:24|| 2007-07-01 16:24|| Front Page Top

#47 And learn it will.

Agreed, and it will prolly be via the "hard way". I'm not against that. It needs to be done, and whatever way that works (STFU CAIR and ACLU!). I just don't buy into "all muslims are bad and need deporting/rounding up in concentration camps/killing". I may be proven wrong in the future, but until that date, I'm set

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-07-01 16:28|| 2007-07-01 16:28|| Front Page Top

#48 Frank, maybe this way... I say Islam and you understand muslims. Thus Islam = muslims.

Then you make a distinction between Islam and muslims.

IOW, it seems that you are inconsistent. Once again, the key word here is seems.

Now, to the moderate muslims. I wish there was more of them, but they seem to be rather rare. I mean the true moderate muslims, born into Islam, but in the course of exchange of ideas they realized that many parts of their creed are barbaric. They tend to eventually leave Islam once the realization what Islam as a whole represents sinks in completely.

Most of the other muslims that seem to be moderate are just bidding their time, practicing one of the half-pillars of Islam, called kitman or taqiyya.

A recent poll... Consider that about 60% of British muslims would welcome sharia. Most of them would be considered "moderate". An objection could be countered that they have a very little idea what that entails, and under it's rule they may start feeling at least ambivalent about it, as it has it's utopian appeal. But that figure also tells you that if muslims become a majority in UK, it is very likely that sharia would be imposed by default. Once in place, it is a multi-headed hydra, very difficult to slay.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 16:35|| 2007-07-01 16:35|| Front Page Top

#49 By the way, ever consider upgrading to a 2x6?

as an old wood butcher, LOL!

i still like 2x4s tho! >:)

Posted by RD 2007-07-01 16:37|| 2007-07-01 16:37|| Front Page Top

#50 2x4, your polling data suggests that 40 percent of Muslims in the UK don't support Sharia.

What do you think the percentage is for Muslims in the ME?

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 16:41|| 2007-07-01 16:41|| Front Page Top

#51 If you make it painful enough, Islam can be either eliminated or reduced to such a miniscule level that it no longer poses a threat. Several "major" religions have been virtually wiped out. They include most of the Roman/Greek, Druid, Baal, and Zoroastrianism cults, the Mayan and Inca religions, along with dozens more we've never even heard of from pre-recorded history. It would require devastation equal to the destruction of the Aztecs and Incas, or the pre-contact religions of the Pacific Islanders, would be messy and guilt-ridden, but it CAN be done. I'm not sure we've reached that point yet, but if the muzzies keep pushing, we might.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-07-01 16:54|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-07-01 16:54|| Front Page Top

#52 Mike, well the under is that about 23% had no opinion either way and the over is that god gracious there are some that say hell no (the rest, about 17%).

Overall, that bodes not well.

As for ME, I don't know. Iraq is a testing lab for the idea that basic human values can be injected into a society. Whether it works is still in a crystal ball. I hope so and it may catch up. The attempts of imposition of sharia in the areas AQ ruled may have left a bitter taste in the people subjected to it.

It is possible that we will be successfull and the Iraq paradigm would spread in ME, although we may not be allowed to complete the task if isolationism gets its sway and then all will be lost.

Paradoxically, we may lose Europe in the meanwhile.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 16:57|| 2007-07-01 16:57|| Front Page Top

#53 For starters, I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.

While I agree with you, I also maintain that a vast number of Muslims would view this as tantamount to the banning of Islam itself. For instance, segregation of women's prayer areas in mosques could be deemed discriminatory. Should a woman attempt to pray in the men's area and was injured or threatened, legal action would be appropriate. Thusly, a gigantic can of worms is opened. From all indications, the Islamic can of worms desperately needs to be opened and subjected to the light of day.

Frank, I am not intentionally trying to set up any sort of straw man argument. I feel that you strongly underestimate just how many Muslims regard Islam and shari'a as inseparable. I'd wager that those "moderate" Muslims you know are by far a tiny minority.

I think twobyfour makes an important point of how other hostile creeds have disappeared throughout history. Likewise with noting how Judaism survives by dint of its ethically valid doctrine. The Jews did nothing to deserve arrival of the Holocaust. Islam shares no such innocence in its lust for genocide against the Jews and destruction of the West.

Considering Islams relative youth, Islam is learning this right on schedule.

Relative youth? Islam has been around nearly as long as Christianity without undergoing anything remotely approaching the same degree of progress or modification needed to adapt into pluralist society. In fact, Islam has done everything possible to avoid, prohibit and deter any such adaptation or reform. This is why I take such a dim view of its prospects for survival. Why are we Infidels obliged to show any patience with a group of people who are largely committed to the death of Western civilization?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 17:01|| 2007-07-01 17:01|| Front Page Top

#54 I'm not European so its not a major deal to me. If Europe wants to give the store away, that's their fault.

This time though, I say we don't keep Russia back. The war between Russia and Europe is currently on hold and we shouldn't work too hard to keep it that way if the muzzies get Europe.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 17:02|| 2007-07-01 17:02|| Front Page Top

#55 I would suggest not allowing the teaching of Sharia.

As I asked before, Mike N.:

Would you support a ban on all Internet sites that provide the endlessly detailed and often ridiculous fatwan regarding Islamic worship's minutae? Those fatwan represent shari'a law in action.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 17:05|| 2007-07-01 17:05|| Front Page Top

#56 Christianity started with Jesus. It is a helluva lot older than Islam.

As for removing Islam, read my post above concerning technology and keep in mind that Islam is not a regional religion like the ones that have gove away.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 17:06|| 2007-07-01 17:06|| Front Page Top

#57 Depends on the site, Zen. If the site is telling its readers to usurp the state, then yes. Beyond that, it's pointless. Today it's not possible to repress information that has been around for 1400+ years.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 17:10|| 2007-07-01 17:10|| Front Page Top

#58 Mike, the diff is about 6 and half centuries.

There was something like a reformation in Islam between 11th and 12th centuries. Ibn Rushd comes to mind as the ideological representative of that trend. Unfortunately, the traditionalists (or fundamentalists if I were to use the somewhat incorrect label in fashion) got their way, and closed any potential breaches in the doctrine real well, cementing a circular system akin to catch 22. It is not possible to reform it. Chrisitanity's reformations always sourced on the original roots.

Islam is the opposite, it is the radical Islamism that goes back to roots for nourishment.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 17:23|| 2007-07-01 17:23|| Front Page Top

#59 Islam is the opposite, it is the radical Islamism that goes back to roots for nourishment.

And shari'a is inextricably entangled in those roots.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 17:33|| 2007-07-01 17:33|| Front Page Top

#60 If the site is telling its readers to usurp the state, then yes.

This then beggars the question: Does the Koran demand that Muslims overthrow all other governments and religions? Short answer: Yes. Agree or disagree?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 17:37|| 2007-07-01 17:37|| Front Page Top

#61 Interesting debate going on in this thread. I would say that Zenster scores an irrefutable point in post #60.

The uncomfortable truth is that Islamic fundamentalism is incompatible with democracy because immodifiable Koranic scripture demands the establishment of a caliphate and the assassination of apostates. What logically follows is this: the only Muslims we can permit to live within our societies are not true Muslims, but some watered down inauthentic version. And as Zenster has repeatedly taken pains to point out in the past, the practice of taqiyya makes distinguishing between both types virtually impossible.

We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry.

Posted by Grumenk Philalzabod0723 2007-07-01 19:00|| 2007-07-01 19:00|| Front Page Top

#62 I have heard some say that "moderate" muslims are simply muslims out of ammunition.

Posted by Omoluling McCoy4091 2007-07-01 19:11|| 2007-07-01 19:11|| Front Page Top

#63 Thank you, GP0723.

We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry.

This is the same conclusion that I have arrived at in the past few months. Islam's categorical lack of redeeming values makes eliminating such a hostile and anti-democratic ideology nothing less than an obligation to future generations of Americans.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 19:18|| 2007-07-01 19:18|| Front Page Top

#64 #9 Fuck off redneck, I got trolls to kill.

Shipass, Never, NEVER try to start a battle of wits, you're unarmed.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-07-01 19:55|| 2007-07-01 19:55|| Front Page Top

#65 We here in America would thus be justified in classifying Islam not as a religion, but as a covert political ideology inherently inimitable to our core principles and restricting its followers' access to U.S. soil, just as members of various extremist political movements have been denied entry. This is the key.Islam is not just a religious movement but also a political one. It is a totalitarian movement. The religious and political elements are inseparable. Also the political and military. How do you practice separation of Church and State when, under Islam, there is no such separation? Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-07-01 19:56|| 2007-07-01 19:56|| Front Page Top

#66 Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know.

Deac, all of us need to begin addressing this issue. There needs to be some sort of concensus so that a unanimous front can be presented to the more monolithic one that Islam presents. No, Islam is not wholely monolithic, but its overall doctrine turns it into a jihadist juggernaut that represents a grave danger to the West. Let's work together and create a unified position regarding this Islamic crapulence.

PS: Has anyone else noticed how the opposition gets all quiet once the finer points of this debate emerge?

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 20:07|| 2007-07-01 20:07|| Front Page Top

#67 Dawg Years screwed me up big time.

By your own words condemned, shipass.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2007-07-01 20:15|| 2007-07-01 20:15|| Front Page Top

#68 Speaking for myself alone, and not as a Mod:

Zen, one reason "the opposition" might get quiet about this point is that your black and white assumptions make discussion pretty much impossible, beyond simple agreement with you.

For instance, the relationship of Sharia to Islam is not nearly so settled a matter as you present, for many Muslims I know. Nor is it obvious to me that Islam should and must be reduced to its Wahabist and Salafist fringe, which reduction is central to the course of your regular chain of argument.

I could go on, but I have little hope that there would be meaningful dialogue, based on the history of posts here.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-01 20:21|| 2007-07-01 20:21|| Front Page Top

#69 I have to disagree, lotp. Islam is monolithic. A comparison can be made to some elements of Christianity. I vividly remember the fight in Houston County, Alabama to vote the County dry. No alcohol would be sold. all the Christian Churches were directing their congregations to vote dry, thereby forcing their religious views on everyone. The wet/dry proposition was decided in favor of wet, by the way. The difference I see is that under Islam there would be no vote. No one has a choice.Islam reigns supreme. This is not monolithic? What would happen if I, as a Christian, demanded religious facilities at sports stadiums or airports? The point I make is that Christians accept the will of the majority. You don't have to drink alchol, it's a personal choice. Under Islam there is no choice.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-07-01 20:46|| 2007-07-01 20:46|| Front Page Top

#70 your black and white assumptions make discussion pretty much impossible, beyond simple agreement with you

Then why is it that I always invite open discussion and alternative views on such subjects, lotp? You demonstrated far less intellectual honesty when I attempted to inform you about how Taj al-Hilali was nothing near a "moderate" Muslim.

For instance, the relationship of Sharia to Islam is not nearly so settled a matter as you present, for many Muslims I know.

And, as with, Frank G, does that necessarily mean your own accounting of Muslim "tolerance" amounts to anything more than a personal viewpoint? I realize that my own less-than-favorable views are subject to similar assessments but, at least, they are backed by majority findings in many international polls.

Nor is it obvious to me that Islam should and must be reduced to its Wahabist and Salafist fringe

Save that, regardless of demographics, these are the ones who want to inflict nuclear terrorist attacks against the West. How do we manage to ameliorate such a dire threat against us? Do tell.

I could go on, but I have little hope that there would be meaningful dialogue

That's your problem and not mine. I've repeatedly demonstrated the moral courage to engage you in polite debate. You've already run away once before when confronted with an exposure of your own intellectual dishonesty. Feel free to continue doing the same.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 20:47|| 2007-07-01 20:47|| Front Page Top

#71 Sorry to be so quiet, Zenster, but your ratio of total bandwidth to "finer points of this debate" approaches infinity and quite frankly bores me. I just skim your stuff now and then (nothing new anyway) to see if you need another slap to preserve the integrity of Rantburg.

Posted by Darrell 2007-07-01 20:58|| 2007-07-01 20:58|| Front Page Top

#72 For all of you that think the religion of Islam can't be separated from the state, I would suggest looking at the last 87 years of Turkish history.

If the decoupling of Islam and the state is seen as some sort of self evident impossibility, then there is nothing more for us to discuss. That assumption does not survive an honest, factual evaluation.

I would also point out that its foolish to expect all followers of a religion to leave religion out of politics. Right here in the good ole US of A we have more religious groups influencing politics than I have fingers and toes.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 21:05|| 2007-07-01 21:05|| Front Page Top

#73 And, as with, Frank G, does that necessarily mean your own accounting of Muslim "tolerance" amounts to anything more than a personal viewpoint?

It means I have personal experience and have had discussions on the topic over approx. 20 years now with Muslims from a variety of birthplaces who hold a range of beliefs about the applicability, nature and content of Sharia.

Deacon, my experience is that Islam is NOT monolithic. However, the Wahabists and Salafists would certainly like it to be and push that claim hard.

Yes, there are significant threats to our country, economy and way of life posed by some Muslims, encouraged by some interpretations of the Qu'ran. We need wisdom and courage to deal with them.

The beginning of wisdom is to collect factual information. Do some extremists want to use nuclear weapons against us? In a heartbeat, if they could.

Can they? Maybe. Not likely, but possible. More likely IMO are attempts at radiological contamination (dirty bomb), chemical attacks or eventually attempts at biological attacks (perhaps with genetically engineered diseases). T

It's interesting that you chose the word 'ameliorate' Zenster. It acknowledges that there are tradeoffs between risk and the costs and uncertainty of measures we might take to manage those risks. Expelling or trying to kill all Muslims isn't a risk management approach, it's an attempt at a magic wand -- one that I find repugnant morally and that is quite likely to fail in the attempt, not least because others who find it repugnant would resist your attempt.

Which leaves us with the need to weave a network of approaches, some tactical (such as the radiological and other scans we are putting in place in many ports), some more strategic (such as the role of financial tracking and sanctions in throttling the flow of cash to jihadi cells).

Certainly there is a lot more we could and should be doing. One of them is a public debate on the risks and tradeoffs. That's not easy to do when many on both sides wish to polarize the discussion from the start.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-01 21:13|| 2007-07-01 21:13|| Front Page Top

#74 "Ultimately Islam must be eliminated. How one does this I don't know."

-heck, I'd settle for rendering it inert at this point. Seems that some on this site are for the elimination of the ideology and some just want to see it modernized into a benign belief system akin to buddhism (not in substance but hopefully in style). I'd settle for either option.

I've been to Iraq twice and grew up next to Dearborn, MI prior to my USMC life; I know the muzzies well. Imho - islam is garbage, sunni, shia, whatever, garbage (although I'm no fan of any org religion in general, islam is hands down the worst of the biggies) arab tribal culture is also pretty much garbage. Is islam a better product away from the tribal component - I'm not sure, maybe that would help. Are there mod muzzies out there? I'm sure there is as I've met a few, however if you tacitly condone your coreligionists I do not trust you. I'd also be disconcerted if 60% of any demographic said they wanted something as stupid as sharia law instituted. Imho, if islam really just stuck to it's 5 pillars like it proclaims - it prolly be okay. I ultimately don't give a rat's ass what any man believes, prolly like most of you on here - just keep your spittle away from my kids.

More to the point of answering the deac's question - my personal experiences w/the Avg American is that they have no clue about islam in even the most minute form that those of us on the 'berg do. So I'd start there -

step 1 - education of what islam really is (no p.c. rop nonsense allowed). To include simultaneous debunking of the origins of islam from a scientific and philosophical viewpoint. Including accurate historical accounts of the bloodshed, rapes, and other exploits of young mohammad & it's impact on the cultures of the region. Every nasty skeleton would be brought to light but in a very dispassionate, logical, and methodical way. Maybe have a documentary and or lecture series like all the self-critiques I've seen done of christianity. Circulate it via all the mass comm mediums you can imagine in our country and the world. That's just my introductory education angle. Of course, you'd have the obligatory muslim riots and cair spittles but that would prolly just put more bullets in our magazines. Whatever happens (islam calls for violence) when using the media form, the authors must never apologize to those who *feel offended* - ever. Pope Benedict screwed up imho, even w/the nuance of his apology which I did get.

It would take me a whole 'nother page to go over my more "kinetic" angles. Those would be predicated on the actions the enemy takes, violent or staging.

Overall, until the mere mention of islam is on par w/the word nazi or KKK in the minds of average Americans there will be no marginalizing the ideology.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-01 21:22|| 2007-07-01 21:22|| Front Page Top

#75 That's your problem and not mine. I've repeatedly demonstrated the moral courage to engage you in polite debate. You've already run away once before when confronted with an exposure of your own intellectual dishonesty. Feel free to continue doing the same.

Actually, the last time I posted a sustantive response you merely called me "intellectually dishonest" as if that proved something and then ignored it.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2007-07-01 21:26|| 2007-07-01 21:26|| Front Page Top

#76 The attention whore's whole point is attention. The topic could be crackerjacks, uranium cookware or Islam the topic doesn't make a difference.

A sick narcissistic attention whore even thrives on whithering negative attention. It suits the attention whore just fine because it too still still feeds the beast.

The all to obvious attention whore here at the 'Burg would switch to Islam before it was starved of attention.

Posted by RD 2007-07-01 21:35|| 2007-07-01 21:35|| Front Page Top

#77 Zen, what the Koran instructs its followers to do is of little relevance. What its followers do is very relavent. Go through your copy of the Bible and you'll find some despicable things in there as well. Sure, not nearly as many, but there just the same. The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.

In short, the answer to your question is, "Doesn't matter."

As for the opposition getting quiet, it wasn't because I didn't want to respond to a false premise being trumpetted as a finer point, it was because I had better shit to do.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 21:35|| 2007-07-01 21:35|| Front Page Top

#78 Sorry to be so quiet, Zenster, but your ratio of total bandwidth to "finer points of this debate" approaches infinity and quite frankly bores me. I just skim your stuff now and then (nothing new anyway) to see if you need another slap to preserve the integrity of Rantburg.

Likewise, I'm sure. Lack of contamination by any intellectual content must be truly terrifying.

It's interesting that you chose the word 'ameliorate' Zenster. It acknowledges that there are tradeoffs between risk and the costs and uncertainty of measures we might take to manage those risks.

Curious how you've totally avoided my assertations of having skirted any intellectual honesty regarding Taj al-Hilaly's supposed "moderation".

Overall, until the mere mention of islam is on par w/the word nazi or KKK in the minds of average Americans there will be no marginalizing the ideology.

Thank you, Broadhead6. Your firsthand accounts are invaluable.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 21:37|| 2007-07-01 21:37|| Front Page Top

#79 Zenster's favorite delusion is that he makes us run away. Actually, it's more like we close the windows when the odor of skunk starts getting too strong.

Posted by Darrell 2007-07-01 21:37|| 2007-07-01 21:37|| Front Page Top

#80 Islam is not monolithic. There are multiple schools of thought in the Sunni branch. Ditto the Shi'a. Then you have the Sufis, Ahmadis and other schizms.

It's a simplistic approach to lump them all-together. It's far better, smarter (and more difficult) to understand which branches of Islam are a clear and present danger to us, and which ones can co-exist with the West. The former need to be rendered harmless, whatever it takes.

I get a little tired of the "kill them all" nonsense, 'bout as tired as I am of pig fat and lard jokes. None of that helps us in the WoT; it just makes it easier for the pomos and lefties to dismiss our point of view. A thought to consider ...

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-07-01 21:40|| 2007-07-01 21:40|| Front Page Top

#81 I don't have much confidence in the main stream media carrying the message that puts islam on a par with the KKK, thugees, WWII Japanese, or the nazis. Islam is a demon religion--I just don't know how you demonize it. Maybe it will take another 911. Drudge has a story tonight stating that there is a lot of chatter such as preceded 911. Homeland Security has some kind of secret report that says look out for another large scale terrorist attack this summer.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-07-01 21:44|| 2007-07-01 21:44|| Front Page Top

#82 Zen, what the Koran instructs its followers to do is of little relevance. What its followers do is very relavent. Go through your copy of the Bible and you'll find some despicable things in there as well. Sure, not nearly as many, but there just the same. The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.

In short, the answer to your question is, "Doesn't matter."

As for the opposition getting quiet, it wasn't because I didn't want to respond to a false premise being trumpetted as a finer point, it was because I had better shit to do.

Mike N., for what it's worth, your honest reply counts for a thousand times more than the usual crapulent assaults by others. I look forward to engaging you in further clarification. I think that both of us might do each other some good.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 21:45|| 2007-07-01 21:45|| Front Page Top

#83 ROTFL. Zenster, he says he has better shit to do.

Smells like skunk here. About time for me to close my Windows.

Posted by Darrell 2007-07-01 21:55|| 2007-07-01 21:55|| Front Page Top

#84 Islam is indeed not monolithic.

And Muslims themselves are also not monolithic in their education, cultural background, family histories, financial class and other factors that strongly affect peoples' behavior.

I've talked with Palestinians on the West Bank 20 years ago who drew their water from a well and carried it home on donkeys, in the shadow of Jewish settlements. I've known and know thoroughly assimilated, upper middle class Muslims who grew up in the States, practice medicine and accounting and engineering, and whose level of religious zeal is about that of most Methodists. I know a young soldier in the US Army who has kept the Ramadan fast despite being in tough training situations, but who would never dream of doing so in real operations, when the lives of his Baptist or Catholic platoon buddies would be endangered by any weakness on his part.

Life is a lot more complex when you're out from behind a keyboard and have several decades of experience behind your judgements.

Come back and talk with me about courage when you've faced a parent, spouse or child dying or disabled - as I and many others here have - and you've had to make the decision about medical care without the comfort of clearly predictable outcomes. Or when you've led troops in combat, or faced any other tough decision with deep moral and practical implications and not one shred of certainty to guide you.

Come back and talk with me about courage on the matter of dealing with Muslim terrorists when you can speak from knowledge of Muslims as real people, with faces, families and a variety of opinions, as I have.

Until then, I find your arguments unpersuasive and, in their length and repetition, increasingly not worth reading. Is that a mistake on my part? Maybe. But that's where the cost - benefit tradeoff comes down.

Posted by lotp 2007-07-01 22:14|| 2007-07-01 22:14|| Front Page Top

#85 Zenster, so far I haven't heard one of your detractors say anything that I haven't heard in the last 20 years. Except in Hebrew, and dealing with "Palestinians" instead of Muslims in general. The urge to win public approval by espousing a "nice & reasonable" position is probably genetically coded. And it's, probably, the principal reason why civilizations repeatedly get overrun by barbarians.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-07-01 22:17|| 2007-07-01 22:17|| Front Page Top

#86 The difference is, Christians have learned that some of the things in the Bible are not suitable for modern society. Again, I point you to Islams relative youth.

Mike, we don't have the luxury to wait 600 years till they catch up, I think.

There is a major diference between the nasty stuff in the Bible and Koran (hadiths, etc). The Old Testament stuff has been always understood from a historical perspective. Read some old Hebraic commentaries and that would be rather apparent. So, it is not only a suitability-for-modern-society factor, as you presume.

Koran, on the other hand, is a manual of Mo emulation.

...

The thing is, I am of a peaceful nature. I'd rather find ways to destroy Islam by peacefull means than otherwise.

Why not reform it? I don't think it is possible. You can reform individuals, but not the whole edifice, it is too entrenched in it's current form and as time goes by, the two main jihad oriented prongs would squeeze the minor splinters out. They may ultimately duke it out between themselves, but not until their conquest is finalized. To contain and leave Islam to live in some form or another with their current manuals intact would be asking for a repeat 300 year later, if not sooner, if I considered the containment possible.

Time is running out, and people that ponder too heavily about shades of gray will be the ones that would ultimately turn the keys and push the button as they will find themselves in a corner.

I have to leave it at that, but will return to it when my committments will ease a bit.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 22:19|| 2007-07-01 22:19|| Front Page Top

#87 There are 2 equally correct ways you can look at the current Islamic bloody rages:
1) Islam is failing in competition with the West (in particular the USA. Esp. cultural competition.
2) Islam is attempting to capture the world by the sword and is an ATTENTION WHORE to boot.

The question is "What to do about it?"

Posted by 3dc 2007-07-01 22:46|| 2007-07-01 22:46|| Front Page Top

#88 Several "major" religions have been virtually wiped out. They include most of the Roman/Greek, Druid, Baal, and Zoroastrianism cults

Just a small quibble to a good point, Old Patriot: Zoroastrianism is alive and doing ok. Major centers in Iran and India (where they're known as Parsis, no doubt a corruption of Persian), whence some fled following the Islamic conquest. A quick google gave their numbers as being somewhere between 20,000 and 140,000 world wide. So much for accuracy.

Separately, the teaching of Islam, hence the laws and philosophy of Sharia, is not capable of being banned. The earliest example of such an attempt, since we're talking so approvingly of the Jews, was when the Seleucid/Syrian king Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" banned Judaism on the grounds that the entire kingdom must worship the Greek gods (and because he needed the treasures of the Temple in Jerusalem to pay off the debts incurred in his disastrous war against Ptolomy's Egypt (I don't know which number, but I think all of the Greek male pharaohs were named Ptolomy after the dynasty's founder, third of Alexander the Great's generals). If I recall the time line correctly, within a decade the Maccabean revolt had begun -- another disaster for poor King Antiochus.

A thought occurs to me about the large percentages wanting Sharia imposed, which they would really, really hate if they had to live under its restrictions. I am starting to suspect that those who claim to want it are using the term as a short cut to We get to be the fat cats and you-all have to do all the work, completely ignoring the dreadful Taliban and Saudi experiments. Much like the Marxists/Maoists and pure-blood racists of all colours, when they claim to want their ideal society, really want an Animal Farm where they get to be the pigs.

This doesn't make the jihadis/Islamofascists/Islamic Radicals any less dangerous, but does change a bit the discussion for me. We beat Fascism with full-out war, which took the world the better part of a decade, the U.S. having entered about halfway through. We beat Marxism via the Cold War, which took the better part of two generations. So far we've undertaken a mixture of the two for this third war against a totalitarian ideology, and we've been truly fighting it for almost six years, if my math is correct. Strategy Page says Al Qaeda is down to its junior varsity for the most part, and if the fizzles of the last two days are any example, it isn't just the Al Qaeda organization. [Hang on, Zenster, I quite agree that we can't count on the enemy being as stupid as they appear. ;-)] There have also been articles posted here at Rantburg which suggest that all the Sturm und Drang are a sign of Islam's hollowing out and imminent collapse, which I'm not clever enough to determine one way or the other. BUT, the Muslim world, and the rest of the world, too, are seeing two experiments going on at the moment: Iraq and the Palestinian Territories. The two in contrast lead to mind-opening possibilities, even for those who fight with all their might against them. Even in Saudi Arabia the peepul have started beating up the Muttawas, and suing them for false arrest, beatings and deaths in custody. Who ever thought that could happen in the stronghold of Wahabbi Islam?

My apologies for using up so much bandwidth today. I adore you all, and get really upset when y'all insist on fighting when we all agree on the important stuff. I hope you can forgive me my silliness.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-07-01 22:46|| 2007-07-01 22:46|| Front Page Top

#89 TW, you always contribute very good points and a fresh POV. Sillines is simply not your middle name. ;-)

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 22:51|| 2007-07-01 22:51|| Front Page Top

#90 JQC - I have no faith in the msm. Hence my advocacy for mass circulation via all mass comm mediums. That could mean youtube, myspace, or anyother pajama media. Could also mean VOA, sirius, xm, whatever. The bottomline is there is no perfect option, there never is a perfect option or plan - only some that are better than others. In any case, I'm sure our congresscowards would never have the balls to even try & peacefully debunk islam. I have no faith in our gov't to deal w/them effectively as it stands now. Too many on the saudi teat & too many not understanding the real dynamics of the region/religion, etc. My fear is that too many folks in decision making places are still in 9/10/2001 comfortzone - this will lead to another attack and we will have to really hit them beyond what most of us want.

Right now I can think of several fairly plausible means - economic, legal, and non-violent in a kinetic sense to start incrementally dismantling and/or discrediting the muslim ideology both w/in & w/out our nation. None of them would be *easy* or quick (words I hate now because too many Americans want *easy* vice necessary) but they would be simple and effective.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-01 22:56|| 2007-07-01 22:56|| Front Page Top

#91 TW - I hope you're right. I wish I could be more optimistic.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-01 23:03|| 2007-07-01 23:03|| Front Page Top

#92 Broadhead6, it would be very helpful for me -- if you were willing -- if you would outline your thoughts and post it on page 4 as an opinion piece. You always come up with such useful things. I already suckered dear Pappy into wrestling his thoughts on Iran into shape, you see, and you bring a similarly practical experience to the discussion.

My thanks, always, for what you've done and continue to do to keep us all safe.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-07-01 23:07|| 2007-07-01 23:07|| Front Page Top

#93 OK, something that caught my attention...

TW:
I am starting to suspect that those who claim to want it are using the term as a short cut to We get to be the fat cats and you-all have to do all the work, completely ignoring the dreadful Taliban and Saudi experiments

I think you've nailed it fairly squarely to the wall. And in fact, that is what their cult promises. To become overlords and have some virgins later on to boot. Beside having some in their earthly existence.

However, the utopia (from their POV) would end as soon as the Islamic jurisprudence is established.

In a way, and I say it with a degree of uneasiness as it did cost a lot of blood, AQ in Iraq has been most helpful to blow the ruse.

It is like with communism. You have to experience it on your own to realize what a deranged political system it is.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 23:08|| 2007-07-01 23:08|| Front Page Top

#94 Come back and talk with me about courage on the matter of dealing with Muslim terrorists when you can speak from knowledge of Muslims as real people, with faces, families and a variety of opinions, as I have.

I've worked side by side with Muslims on the design of high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors. I've played backgammon with them after hours in their own homes. I've performed music at their weddings and have debated the merits of shari'a law more times than I can count.

You still refuse to admit ignoring my own direct postings about how Taj al-Hilali was no sort of moderate Muslim, just like you did in the first place. Your attacks mean absolutely nothing in the face of such continued intellectual dishonesty.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 23:18|| 2007-07-01 23:18|| Front Page Top

#95 TW - thanks for the sentiment & will do on the essay. Before the end of the week I'll put some stuff up for you to peruse. *Be forewarned* - I have no earth shattering courses of action or majick bullets to share. I'm sure any means I advocate to strengthen our country or weaken fundy islam someone else here has already thought about or prolly even discussed in a thread. If for some reason you don't see it I can shoot it to you via email if you'd like. BTW - I am on an easy duty away from the real USMC, (you could prolly tell that by looking at my IP) - teaching officer wannabees on a lovely campus in the mid-west...Mrs. BH6 is quite happy to say the least.

Posted by Broadhead6 2007-07-01 23:33|| 2007-07-01 23:33|| Front Page Top

#96 You could also do me another favor, lotp, by not squalling here or there about my posting late in a thread. I reserve that only for the most useless of morons (unless you wish to be part of that category), not people who have any courage. In case you haven't noticed, that translates into a timely response over 90% of the time. Of course, that means nothing if you just want to keep pissing and moaning.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 23:39|| 2007-07-01 23:39|| Front Page Top

#97 Zenter -- this is just too much --
I've worked side by side with Muslims on the design of high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors. I've played backgammon with them after hours in their own homes. I've performed music at their weddings and have debated the merits of shari'a law more times than I can count.

So -- let's see -- master of words, master of cooking, master of making music, master of backgammon, master of whatever the h*ll "high throughput III-IV liquid phase epitaxial reactors" are -- meaning -- since you are the master of such incredible talents... just what does that mean to me?

I'm just a lit'le old lady deep in the heart of Texas... and I'm just not sure why your being the master of just high flaunting stuff, should make me bow to your beliefs.

You seem to have much experience debating with Muslims.... are you winning? Maybe your debating should have more impact on them, rather than us, since, they seem to be the cause of all our problems.

Apparently, you're not convincing them..... so.. are you practicing your arguments on us? If so, it ain't working with the lit'le ole lady... and thus, I don't think it is working with all your Muslim friends, that using your incredible master of so many talents... well, they seem to need more convincing, or you wouldn't be here.... you would have convinced them.... and thus, you wouldn't need us to practice on.

Yes, I did end that sentence with a preposition, and I intended to.

Now, excuse me if my words are harsh... that's the Texas lady comin' out in me.

Posted by Sherry">Sherry 2007-07-01 23:46|| 2007-07-01 23:46|| Front Page Top

#98 Zen, sometimes... you tend to push buttons. LOL

One aspect... the thing is, people have all sorts of things to do, so timely responses may not be possible. I myself is guilty as charged of untimely responses, if responses at all, and that is just the way it is.

Posted by twobyfour 2007-07-01 23:50|| 2007-07-01 23:50|| Front Page Top

#99 are you winning?

Yes, I finally convinced one gay man I know that he would be the first to die if Islam had its way.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-07-01 23:56|| 2007-07-01 23:56|| Front Page Top

#100 I would love to respond, but I seem to have found the key to roadside America.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-07-01 23:57|| 2007-07-01 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 Mike N.
23:56 Grumenk Philalzabod0723
23:56 Zenster
23:50 twobyfour
23:46 Sherry
23:39 Zenster
23:33 Broadhead6
23:24 Zenster
23:18 Zenster
23:08 twobyfour
23:07 KBK
23:07 trailing wife
23:06 gromgoru
23:03 Broadhead6
22:56 Broadhead6
22:55 gromgoru
22:51 twobyfour
22:49 trailing wife
22:46 trailing wife
22:46 3dc
22:45 twobyfour
22:40 Barbara Skolaut
22:40 twobyfour
22:37 gromgoru