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2013-07-01 Home Front: Culture Wars

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Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11134 views ] Top

#1 Grrrr..

Posted by 3dc 2013-07-01 01:07|| 2013-07-01 01:07|| Front Page Top

#2 Well, if you have a school system whose main purpose to teach self-esteem (to girls, boys are being taught their place)...

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2013-07-01 06:37|| 2013-07-01 06:37|| Front Page Top

#3 H1B for software needs to be completely terminated. Hell, H1B itself needs to be completely terminated. If we need technical expertise, then give them a damn green card, or other form of unrestricted work permit. If we truly are shot of a skill set, we need them, let them compete fairly and openly - instead of the H1B way, which is basically an indentured servant, wage slave who must work whatever his sponsor says or be sent home.

Posted by OldSpook 2013-07-01 11:01|| 2013-07-01 11:01|| Front Page Top

#4 Hear, hear, OS.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2013-07-01 12:37|| 2013-07-01 12:37|| Front Page Top

#5 Also, they could end the age discrimination $%#@.

They want someone with 'X' years of experience with Newly Invented Technology 'Z' but young enough that they would have had to start at 11.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2013-07-01 12:47|| 2013-07-01 12:47|| Front Page Top

#6 That's old school Thing. Used to read Computerworld with the want ads in the back. Whole page columns of prerequisites that no one on the planet had. Just an excuse to get one of these visas. No one ever checked up whether the foreign hire had the qualifications posted in the scam. Kids bright enough to get an IEEE type degree were also smart enough to know that after investing the time and accumulating the debt for the degrees, they would face competition with one of these visa holders who were not free agents but indentured servants, with matching pay. Why waste your time? We killed 'growing our own' for over two decades now by this program.

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 13:26|| 2013-07-01 13:26|| Front Page Top

#7 Yeah P2K, this sounds like a bad deal for the educated youth of America, but I have got to remember, they have overwhelmingly voted for the Democratic Party and the economic policies that party represents. Well, maybe these educated American youth can become English teachers and teach the Chinese workers a thing or two.

Posted by Sonny Trotsky5585 2013-07-01 13:41|| 2013-07-01 13:41|| Front Page Top

#8 P2K -

I call shenanigans. H1B requires that the employers pay "minimum wage or prevailing wage." This is part of the application itself, and if someone is lying or not paying what they said they would it is not an H1B problem -- it is a criminal problem.

I am personally a fan of H1Bs. It's a great way to cherry pick other nations of some of their best and brightest, and get those people working for us. Many do wind up with green cards.

In Silicon Valley over HALF of new companies are started by foreign-born entrepreneurs. We want these people here.

Posted by Iblis 2013-07-01 14:04|| 2013-07-01 14:04|| Front Page Top

#9 You miss out about free agents. They can negotiate wages. If they get a better offer, they take it and move on. Employers don't like that. If they have a 'lock' on the employee, he's not a free agent to negotiate his wages at will. Technically, they can do that with a contract, but it then obligates the employer as well as the employee to the salary. From the bean counters point of view, that shifts the labor from asset to liability. With a 'indentured' employee, that means obligation upon the employees part, but not on the employers part. He can't take a better offer but the employer has the ability to terminate his visa at will.

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 14:45|| 2013-07-01 14:45|| Front Page Top

#10 BTW, the policing program of companies adhering to the program requirements is even less engaged than ICE is in track and shipping home illegals.

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 14:47|| 2013-07-01 14:47|| Front Page Top

#11 H1Bs aren't as locked in as you may think. They can and do switch jobs. There is no restriction on their securing new employment. There just can't be a break in between.

It's actually pretty remarkable how familiar foreign nationals are with our immigration laws. So long as this is a land of economic freedom and opportunity, high performers will want to come here. Smart, highly motivated people who want something tend to be exceptionally well informed. The idea of dumb coolies working in caves, eating dog food and sleeping on cardboard is a union construct -- i.e. ad campaign of people who want to protect highly subsidized jobs and a source of mandatory political contributions.

Policing may be bad, but again, that's not an H1B problem.

Posted by Iblis 2013-07-01 15:27|| 2013-07-01 15:27|| Front Page Top

#12

I call shenanigans. H1B requires that the employers pay "minimum wage or prevailing wage." This is part of the application itself, and if someone is lying or not paying what they said they would it is not an H1B problem -- it is a criminal problem.

Except they're used for jobs that pay many, many times more than minimum wage. And "prevailing wage" is a term, AFAIK, that applies to union wages, not professional salaries.

I am personally a fan of H1Bs. It's a great way to cherry pick other nations of some of their best and brightest, and get those people working for us.

While leaving OUR best and brightest unemployed.

No thanks.

It's actually pretty remarkable how familiar foreign nationals are with our immigration laws.

So what? I'm sure drug smugglers are familiar with our customs regulations, too.

So long as this is a land of economic freedom and opportunity, high performers will want to come here.

So why does the government subsidize them? Let them come in through the same line as everyone else.

I'd be THRILLED if we shifted our immigration policies to favor skilled people and booted the day laborers. Instead, we let the illegal day laborers stay while subsidizing the importation of (supposedly) skilled labor. Seems like the government wants to squeeze Americans out of the job market...

(Which, with Obamacare and the latest Amnesty bill, they clearly do.)

people who want to protect highly subsidized jobs and a source of mandatory political contributions

Such as the companies who use H1B visas rather than pay citizens (who might desire things like "vacation" and "time for family") to do the work.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2013-07-01 15:45|| 2013-07-01 15:45|| Front Page Top

#13 Keep the cap, let the H1B be a free agent with card four months after arrival in the US and make the company go back through the process again, see how long the program is still lobbied for.

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 15:53|| 2013-07-01 15:53|| Front Page Top

#14 My response is quite simple. I don't care if there is a heaven but I pray there is a hell for people like the supporters of H1B.
You ruined the end years of my life and millions of others. Seem that justice would require your afterlife in hell.

Posted by 3dc 2013-07-01 16:33|| 2013-07-01 16:33|| Front Page Top

#15 I'm a little surprised at the reaction, but this is no time to go wobbly.

"Minimum wage or prevailing wage" is poorly worded. Here's the text from USCIS: "Employers affirm in the labor condition application that the wage offered to the applicant is at least as high as that paid by the employer [to its other employees] for the same type of job, and the number equals or exceeds the prevailing wage for the job in the same geographical area."

But you didn't know that RC. You just flamed me thinking it is legal to pay an H1B worker $7.25/hr. H1B program is NOT a way to save money on wages, especially with the extra legal costs.

Seriously, ask yourselves why employers are willing to spend months and/or years bringing people from overseas when they no longer pay relocation within the US for most positions. Hint -- it's not the cost.

H1B workers are not day laborers. They have to have a 4 year degree or higher. They primarily work in high tech, one of the few industries in which the US continue to lead the world.

And it is illegal to treat your H1B employees differently than your w-2 employees. If your w-2 Americans are getting 2 weeks vacation then so do your H1Bs. They also get all the federal and state employment goodies like family leave.

So, repeat after me. It's not about cost. It's not a way to get slaves. It's not for people who make minimum wage. It's not for unskilled laborers. These are educated people paid good money because they have highly sought after skills. Want to put up a wall along our southern border? So do I! Want to deport people here illegally. So do I! But I would also keep the H1B program.

Posted by Iblis 2013-07-01 17:06|| 2013-07-01 17:06|| Front Page Top

#16 Hint -- it's not the cost.

Respectfully Iblis, that really has to be the minority view of minority views. Does your "hint" also apply to the Delta Airline sales representative that answers my call from her phone shop in Bombay, or the SW development office [which will remain unnamed] on the north side of Atlanta which is scheduled to outsource it's entire developmental activity to Asia in January, 2015 ?

Posted by Besoeker 2013-07-01 17:18|| 2013-07-01 17:18|| Front Page Top

#17 So what's the H1B worker gonna do when he finds out he's classified as one kind of low paid worker and doing the work of another higher paid classification? What's he gonna do when he finds out his employer lied and just plain isn't paying what was promised? Forget what happens to the employer because it ain't gonna happen because if the worker loses his job he loses his visa and he goes back to Bangalore. He's not gonna say a thing. And it's no joke about advertising for skill sets that nobody has in this country and then using the resulting lack of applicants as an excuse to get an H1B visa. This a SCAM.

It's just like when Bush said we need illegal aliens to do the work that Americans won't do. The truth is American workers need not apply for the kind of entry level jobs that American teenagers used to get as their first rung on the economic ladder. It's easier and cheaper for the employers to hire the "immigrants".

You wanna end up living in a United States where we have a billion people just like India and China just because lettuce growers and sleazoid Silicon Valley "entrepreneurs" wanna cut corners? I don't.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2013-07-01 17:26|| 2013-07-01 17:26|| Front Page Top

#18 Besoeker:

Don't mind being in the minority, so long as I'm right.

I have personally been involved in the hiring of dozens of foreign workers, including H1Bs. Not once was it done for cost reasons. In fact, more often than not there was genuine regret that we couldn't find anyone local.

The call center people you reference are low end employees. Not one of them, not even their managers, could come over as an H1B. Apples and oranges.

Posted by Iblis 2013-07-01 17:28|| 2013-07-01 17:28|| Front Page Top

#19 Two things make the world go around, and the other one is money.
- Author unknown

Posted by Besoeker 2013-07-01 17:28|| 2013-07-01 17:28|| Front Page Top

#20 At the end of the day, nearly everything done in the business world is done as a result of some form of cost-benefit analysis, ie, "cost reasons", and this is not a minority view,

Posted by Besoeker 2013-07-01 17:36|| 2013-07-01 17:36|| Front Page Top

#21 Iblis give me an email. I will send you a resume and then you can explain how I am not qualified for jobs in the USA and how some foreign workers are.
Don't forget to disparage my patents and published papers either.

Posted by 3dc 2013-07-01 20:10|| 2013-07-01 20:10|| Front Page Top

#22 You understand free agent?

Just look at the sport entertainment business. When free agency hit, salaries went up. There was always high school and college sports, but it all took a hard turn to careerism when the price went up. Colleges and universities opted to become minor league training systems for the pros. Big money, big incentive. Lots of recruits.

Now imagine if free agency was stopped. That the business could control their labor market by flooding the market with 'other talent'. Suddenly the incentive to put all those resources into the programs and recruit starts to slide.

I've watched this since the 80s. It has created disincentives to go into the fields. Business wants unlimited labor - keeps it relatively cheap to what it would be in scarcity. Simple economics.

And I've heard the argument they could take it overseas - except they understand the cost of doing business with vibrant corruption and running afoul of local foreign laws which mean they personally could be unable to leave the country if they ever step foot there because of some infraction.

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-07-01 20:17|| 2013-07-01 20:17|| Front Page Top

#23 "Employers affirm ... that the wage offered to the applicant is at least as high as that paid by the employer [to its other employees] for the same type of job,

The way this worked at Enron was we hired Indian and Chinese nationals as junior software developers when they all had the chops to fill a senior spot. They got a job, we saved money. Hey, we were masters of playing by (and with) the rules!

Posted by SteveS 2013-07-01 22:42|| 2013-07-01 22:42|| Front Page Top

#24 I will take every damn H1B eligible person in the world over what we are getting now. What moron decided we could only take in tens of thousands of people who can program your lawn mower while de-facto bringing in hundreds of thousands to use your lawn mower.

And anyone who is whining that these H1B people keep programmer's wages lower than they could be, can bite my lily white a$$, because the vastly more low skilled immigrants the "high-skilled" hire to do service work have already destroyed the wages of everyone else.

Using Government power to keep sucking your thumb in a comfy corner of the economy isn't working in Egypt, Turkey, Brazil, China, Greece, Italy, or France. Don't expect it to work in the U. S. of A. either.

We must let as many of these these people in as we can persuade to come, and get them green cards, and let them start families, and join the American experiment.

Posted by rammer 2013-07-01 23:41|| 2013-07-01 23:41|| Front Page Top

#25 Sure, I remember the H1bs. Dozens.
A contracting firm builds a pool and negotiates a rate with them they could never find on their own. The firm then negotiates a contract pay rate with an employer that is 'equivalent' to direct hires. The private contract rate between the firm and the individual is never exposed and IS NOT REGULATED by DoL. The employer pays and reports the going rate, the firm pays the people less and the difference gets skimmed by both parties. One in three are good enough to carry the other two, who are paid an even lower rate. They are incentivized to get the work done by the threat of all three losing their jobs. So they work longer, billable hours than direct employees.

Posted by Skidmark 2013-07-01 23:45|| 2013-07-01 23:45|| Front Page Top

#26 H1Bs are drones, not entrepreneurs. Java monkeys with at most 4 years of experience.

The evidence is overwhelming: this is an indentured servant program designed to shave 20% or more off the cost of mud- and low-level production employees.

Posted by Lex 2013-07-01 23:48|| 2013-07-01 23:48|| Front Page Top

#27 Prof. Norm Matloff of UC-Davis has done the analysis on, and exposed the lies surrounding, this colossal farce. Google him.

Posted by Lex 2013-07-01 23:51|| 2013-07-01 23:51|| Front Page Top

23:51 Lex
23:48 Lex
23:45 Skidmark
23:41 rammer
23:18 Lex
23:15 JosephMendiola
23:10 Lex
23:07 Chunky Spawn of the Wee Folk7795
23:04 JosephMendiola
22:54 Lex
22:53 Lex
22:42 SteveS
22:39 Procopius2k
22:15 Frank G
22:14 Frank G
21:57 Barbara
21:26 SteveS
21:26 Frank G
21:20 Frank G
20:47 Frank G
20:46 Frank G
20:40 Pappy
20:27 Frank G
20:27 USN,ret