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2004-07-10 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-07-10 12:21:19 AM|| || Front Page|| [11136 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Indeed, our top priority should be to respond immediately to the wishes of those that helped us when... er, umm, never mind.

Posted by RB 2004-07-10 12:57:43 AM|| 2004-07-10 12:57:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I bet the Turks won't hesitate to get involved in Iraq when it's in their interest. They just didn't want to help us. Remind me why we're trying to help them get into the EU?

Posted by Spot 2004-07-10 8:23:28 AM|| 2004-07-10 8:23:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#3
Isn't Kirkuk inside Iraq? What's this guy whining about?

There are a lot of Turkmen in Kirkuk. They are threatened by the Kurds.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 9:19:52 AM|| 2004-07-10 9:19:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Mike - "They are threatened by the Kurds."

Really? You have links?

Simply minding their own business in the quite peaceful and already very prosperous Kurdish region, the Turkmen are being threatened by the Kurds? Is this some active campaign? Or is it just that there is a preponderance of Kurd numbers and the Turkmen (and the assholes over the Northern border) wish it were otherwise?

Plz explain. I don't buy it.

Posted by .com 2004-07-10 9:33:27 AM|| 2004-07-10 9:33:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#5
Here's a link I found in five seconds by searching for "Turkmen" and "Kirkuk":
The article starts:
Three people were killed and dozens more wounded when Kurdish gunmen opened fire on a demonstration by Arabs and Turkmen in this northern Iraqi city Wednesday, police and hospital officials said. About 2,000 Turkmen and Sunni Arabs were protesting against a push by the city's Kurdish majority to incorporate the oil-rich center into an autonomous Kurdish province when violent clashes erupted.

If you're interested in the subject, information is easy to find.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 3:44:59 PM|| 2004-07-10 3:44:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 damn dyslexia ;-)

for a second I read the title as "Turds warn Kurks"

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-10 3:56:41 PM|| 2004-07-10 3:56:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#7
I spent another 90 seconds and found this article too.

Kurdish militias should be disarmed in the oil-rich city of Kirkuk, Turkmen interim Governing Council member Shangul Shapuk said Monday after a spate of deadly ethnic clashes. "I have demanded the US-led coalition make Kirkuk a city without arms. The Turkmen are not authorised to carry weapons while the Kurds are heavily armed," Shapuk told AFP.

Last week, Kurdish fighters shot dead four people at an Arab and Turkmen demonstration protesting a Kurdish campaign to incorporate Kirkuk into Iraqi Kurdistan. Two Kurds and an Arab were killed in retaliatory violence that prompted the US army occupying Iraq to slap a night curfew on the restive city. ... "We are with the Kurds the moment they stop meddling in Turkmen affairs, but if they keep demanding more autonomy for Kurdistan, we are going to ask for an Iraqi Turkmenistan," she said.

Turkmen make up less than five percent of Iraq's population and are wary of their Kurdish neighbours in northern Iraq. Thirteen Kurds and Turkmen died in the Kirkuk region last August during clashes over the sensitive issue of the oil-rich city's future.

From now on, .com, you can do your own research on this subject.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 4:02:12 PM|| 2004-07-10 4:02:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I guess abuse/harassment is a very subjective thing, #5. Here's a link to an article written on 1/28/04 about how the Turks are harassing and ill-treating the Kurds in Kirkuk. Call me crazy, but I find the Kurds, our consistent allies in the Iraq War, more believable and more sympathetic a "downtrodden" group than the Turks, who went AWOL when we needed their help and who are known for their long standing aggression and brutality to Kurds.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistan1/8-1-04-opinion-coalition-stop-harassing.html
"The coalition must stop harassing Kurds in Kirkuk"
The coalition forces are pursuing a new policy in Kirkuk, they are taking sides in the ethnic conflict in Kirkuk by launching harassment campaigns, mainly against Kurdish citizens and Kurdish political parties, they are harassing the Kurdish citizens who were the victims of ethnic cleansing and Arabization in Kirkuk, by trying to evict them from their temporary shelters in the buildings belonging to the security forces of toppled Saddam regime without offering them any alternative accommodation, mistreating the women and children accompanied by very aggressive and abusive Turkmen police forces instead of lending them a hand of help to live a decent dignified life, they are treating the very victims of Saddam Hussein as if they were criminals or terrorists, they are listening to the Arab settlers which provide the main bulk of terrorists who kill coalition forces and Iraqi civilians, as well as the pro-Turkey Turkmen Front which operate in liason with infiltrating Turkish intelligence agents in Kirkuk to stir instability and ethnic conflict in Kirkuk...All Turkish intelligence officers (MIT) disguised as military observers, who are inciting hatred and violence against Kurds in Kirkuk, must be expelled from Kirkuk. Turkish presence in any form is not welcome and is a blatant interference in the internal Iraqi affairs...Iraq has been freed from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi society and culture, however, is capable of producing more dictators, therefore the Kurds need a system where such a possibility is remote, and without the right of self-determination in Iraq and the establishment of a federal Kurdistan in partnership to the rest of Arab Iraq, there will always be a possibility that a new Iraqi repressive regime will be established, especially if we consider the region we are living in, where most our neighbors are repressive, chauvinistic and authoritarian regimes hostile to Kurdish rights.

Also, according to a June 24, 2004 article via Reuters, it looks like the Kurdish Iraqi leader, Mr. Talabani, is trying to be nice to the Turk minority, unlike what's has been happening all these years in Turkey with the Kurdish minority.
http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?part=news&Story_ID=062411
âKirkuk is a city of brotherhood where Kurds, Arabs and Turkmen live together...We defend Turkmenâs rights and are working for this,â Mr Talabani yesterday said after talks with the Foreign Minister, Mr Abdullah Gul. His remarks were carried by Turkeyâs state-run Anatolian news agency. âWe want to reach an agreement so that this city can become a symbol of Iraqi unity,â he said. Mr Talabani heads the patriotic union of Kurdistan, one of Iraqâs two main Kurdish factions.

Posted by rex 2004-07-10 4:14:33 PM|| 2004-07-10 4:14:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Mike - both links effectively about the same incident. Deep stuff, Mike. I have researched the subject - rather extensively, you snotty asshole. You think this twaddle proves your point? Nah, it doesn't. There's no pogrom in progress - but there is an understandable desire not to be screwed yet again.

Here is a map showing the traditional Kurdish lands.

I am in favor of the Kurds getting a break this time. For over 500 years they've been repeatedly screwed by the "powers that be" at each point in history. Iraq is a confabualtion of the Skyes-Picot 10 martini lunch. Preserving it means zip to me. Giving the one population which will take freedom and a secular democracy and run with it makes real sense. Making them wait on the Arabs is, well, another of those historical slams they've suffered.

You can make any case you like about Turkey (FUCK Turkey), and Iraq, and the Turkmen and the Sunnis in the north - but I'll side with the Kurds unless they actually do start some sort of systematic violence (ala the Arabs). They are the only group ready to grasp the challenge. FOAD / HAND, Mike.

Posted by .com 2004-07-10 4:37:29 PM|| 2004-07-10 4:37:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Love the closing FOAD/HAND, Dotcom! ROFL...!
For my money, the Kurds have behaved themselves admirably since day one and deserve whatever they ask for!
Even with the gassing of their people by Saddam, they took Bush 41 at his word and began running their own independent state from 1991 on ('course enforcement of the no-fly zones made this possible).
The Turks can suck the Kurds' left nut as one RBer put it!

Posted by Jen 2004-07-10 5:00:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-07-10 5:00:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 .com, thanks for the map reminder. Sure is a big buttload of Turkey in the "Kurdish region", eh?

Mike -- I don't doubt that there are a lot of hard feelings on both sides in Kirkuk. Saddam had a policy of moving the Kurds out and moving others in, and now the Kurds want back what was theirs. The ethnic Turks in Iraq are upset, but they're also in major-league sympathy with their lost cousins to the north, and that makes them dangerous.

I'd like nothing better than to see all parties settle down and live together. Failing that, I agree with .com -- the Kurds have earned our respect and support. The Turks tried to cross us and got double-crossed by the French (heh-he-heh-heh-heh!), and I'm not very sympathetic to their demands. And if they think they can order folks around in northern Iraq, they'll learn better.

Posted by Steve White 2004-07-10 5:24:52 PM|| 2004-07-10 5:24:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 :-)

It's time. Reading what the Kurds have suffered through is a real eye-opener. I long ago began to understand they are among the most egregiously abused groups in history - and they could certainly claim revenge on certain entities, Saddam, Britain, France, Iran, Syria, and Turkey among them. I even like the idea of whacking off the top 20% of Syria and making it part of Kurdistan so they have a nice Med view.

Posted by .com 2004-07-10 5:35:56 PM|| 2004-07-10 5:35:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Mike - any wonder why commenters question the ethics of your editing, given your additional snotty comments? yes, Google is available to all. PD - I concur. Turkey fucked us big-time, hoping for the embrace of the EU...well, they got the cold shoulder from the French (LOL) and now want to dictate terms? FOAD indeed. The Kurds have established a model working society in No. Iraq. Everyone else in Iraq and Ankara should be on their fucking knees apologizing for not meeting the same standards

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-10 5:45:43 PM|| 2004-07-10 5:45:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Here's another, much more expansive, map showing concentrations of Kurds. The Perry-CastaÃ±eda Library Collection is truly a treasure.

Posted by .com 2004-07-10 6:27:20 PM|| 2004-07-10 6:27:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#15
Re: #9 (.com): You think this twaddle proves your point? Nah, it doesn't. There's no pogrom in progress

Here's what I said in #3

There are a lot of Turkmen in Kirkuk. They are threatened by the Kurds.

I'm sorry those two statements upset you so much, .com. Get a grip.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 8:32:20 PM|| 2004-07-10 8:32:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#16
I'll try to reword my statements so they don't offend anyone.

Many Turkmen live in Kirkuk. Many of them feel threatened by the Kurds.

Is that OK?
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 8:39:06 PM|| 2004-07-10 8:39:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 fair enough - evidence? anecdotes?

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-10 8:44:20 PM|| 2004-07-10 8:44:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#18
fair enough - evidence? anecdotes?

You and I do love to argue, Frank G, but I won't bite this evening. I'm going to see the movie Dodge Ball, to psych myself up for the flame-wars tomorrow.

Mellow Mike
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-10 9:06:28 PM|| 2004-07-10 9:06:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Spot, we are supporting Turkey's bid to join the EU so that it will be easier for Turkish workers to migrate to Germany.

Posted by RWV 2004-07-10 9:07:31 PM|| 2004-07-10 9:07:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I won't argue - I LOVED Dodgeball - laughed so hard I almost choked, especially the Lance Armstrong cameo - enjoy!

Posted by Frank G 2004-07-10 9:35:36 PM|| 2004-07-10 9:35:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Ah, Mike, how disingenuous of you. BTW, who do you think you are? Some sort of RB demi-god? You posted an assertion. I asked for supporting links. You post one. Then another 17 min later - before I've seen any of it - and then tell me to do my own research on the topic from now on?

And now you pretend that it must've been something else? You really are a disingenuous arrogant shit. Get fucked, Mike. Oh, wait, make that get fucked, please, Mike. Is that OK?

Posted by .com 2004-07-10 10:52:02 PM|| 2004-07-10 10:52:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#22
Get fucked, Mike. Oh, wait, make that get fucked, please, Mike.

Will do, .com.

While I'm enjoying myself, you can read up on the Turkmen in Kurdistan, and tomorrow you can ask me questions to supplement your new knowledge, if you want.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-07-11 12:17:58 AM|| 2004-07-11 12:17:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Lol! Naw, I'll pass. Your arrogance exceeds all sensibile bounds already. Meanwhile, you can continue to pretend you're a substantial authority.

Posted by .com 2004-07-11 12:37:09 AM|| 2004-07-11 12:37:09 AM|| Front Page Top

15:09 Anonymous5908
00:48 Anonymous5749
02:34 therien
02:33 therien
01:40 Anonymous4617
01:24 .com
01:09 Anonymous4617
00:45 DANEgerus
00:44 Lucky
00:37 .com
00:21 Anonymous4617
00:17 Mike Sylwester
23:38 Old Grouch
23:19 tipper
23:11 .com
23:05 Old Grouch
22:59 Lucky
22:57 .com
22:52 .com
22:34 TS(vice girl)
22:32 Zenster
22:27 Seafarious
22:21 Dragon Fly
22:21 mhw