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1
2005-07-21 Britain
'Incidents' spark Tube evacuation
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Posted by tipper 2005-07-21 08:26|| || Front Page|| [11141 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 and now a report of an 'incident' on a bus in Hackney.

Posted by Elliot Swan 2005-07-21 08:32||   2005-07-21 08:32|| Front Page Top

#2 God, please, let it be nothing. Let everyone be OK.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 08:33|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 08:33|| Front Page Top

#3 CNN reports about an incident with a bus....
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 08:35||   2005-07-21 08:35|| Front Page Top

#4 From CNN:
"He said a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack.

"The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage."

A bomb that failed to detonate the main charge?
Posted by ed 2005-07-21 08:38||   2005-07-21 08:38|| Front Page Top

#5 Whole London underground to shut down...SKY sayzz
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 08:39||   2005-07-21 08:39|| Front Page Top

#6 Reuters saying something about a nail bomb.

(Via Bill Bennet)
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 08:42|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 08:42|| Front Page Top

#7 something about a nail gun and shooting so far - smoke seen coming from train, police everywhere, lets hope they catch some fcker.
Posted by Shep UK 2005-07-21 08:42||   2005-07-21 08:42|| Front Page Top

#8 FOX: No casualities reported yet, Rooters sez nail bomb exploded in station, 3 stations evacuated, emerg services responding to bus "incident", now one injury reported Warren Station.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 08:45||   2005-07-21 08:45|| Front Page Top

#9 Buildings Evacuated Near London's Oval SKY News
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 08:46||   2005-07-21 08:46|| Front Page Top

#10 Warren Street Station, one nail bomb, one injury reported, lots of cops, few ambulances. Oval, Warren St, Shepards Bush station evacuated. Windows blown out Hackney St bus, no reported injuries.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 08:49||   2005-07-21 08:49|| Front Page Top

#11 Bennet: "Looks like somebody tried again."

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 08:50|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 08:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Simon Marks, president and chief correspondent for Feature Story News, was reporting from the Warren Street Underground station for FOX News. He said the area was cordoned off as dozens of fire trucks and emergency vehicles were arriving.
"I think this looks like much more than a false alarm at this point," Marks told FOX News.
Posted by tu3031 2005-07-21 08:54||   2005-07-21 08:54|| Front Page Top

#13 Stagecoach spokesman (Bus company) reports blast on second floor of bus, no casualities.
Witness reports seeing person run onto subway with backpack, then run away before blast. Police say not major incident, bombs if thats what they are seem very small.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 08:57||   2005-07-21 08:57|| Front Page Top

#14 Police say not major incident

And yet I think the response should be, bluntly, brutal, quick, and broad.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 08:59|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 08:59|| Front Page Top

#15 And yet I think the response should be, bluntly, brutal, quick, and broad.

I'm beginning to wonder if any of our leaders would have the backbone to that even after a true WMD attack on a western city.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-07-21 09:01|| http://www.punictreachery.com/]">[http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-07-21 09:01|| Front Page Top

#16 BBC; Dummy explosions with detonators only on subway. Maybe they mean dummy explosives, dentonators being real?
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 09:05||   2005-07-21 09:05|| Front Page Top

#17 Police Cordon Off London's UCH Hospital Reuters sayzzz
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 09:08||   2005-07-21 09:08|| Front Page Top

#18 To make it a litte easier, here are some links to check, all in one place...

AP headlines

Fox News

Drudge Report

Sky News
British Transport Police say one person has been injured at Warren Street station.

BBC
map of the evacuated stations.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-21 09:11||   2005-07-21 09:11|| Front Page Top

#19 People At Warren St Station Wearing Chemical Suits...Bloomberg.....
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 09:11||   2005-07-21 09:11|| Front Page Top

#20 Early reports: Arrest at University College Hospital, police seen chasing man down Tottenham Road. One injury at Warren Street subway.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 09:31||   2005-07-21 09:31|| Front Page Top

#21 Londo police commisioner confirms 4 explosions, 3 subways and one bus. Seems all were small, detonators but no main charge went off.
Maybe a bad batch of explosives, or bad construction? Might had been put together by a third stringer after the egyptian chemist skipped town?
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 09:36||   2005-07-21 09:36|| Front Page Top

#22 Just heard this from Sky News

An eye-witness saw a man with a rucksack standing next to a woman with a baby on the tube. There was an explosion (it seems that only the detonator went off). He then tried to run for it and three or four passengers chased after him, but they couldn't catch him. The baby then started bawling. No idea as to whether the woman was with the man.

There's also a report of a small explosion on the top of a bus - again, possibly a detonator. Police have sealed off that area.

Latest from Scotland Yard: No trace of chemical agents at Oval station.

Thankfully, not looking like there are major casualties, and it looks like we might get one of the bastards.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 09:39||   2005-07-21 09:39|| Front Page Top

#23 Police commissioner: Four explosions, Number 26 bus at Hackney, Warren Street, Oval and Sheppards Bush subway station. Minor injuries only, Hazmat crew checked Warren st, no chem attack. Small bombs, maybe only detonators, seem to be crude. Possible nail bomb Warren St.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 09:44||   2005-07-21 09:44|| Front Page Top

#24 An eye-witness saw a man with a rucksack standing next to a woman with a baby on the tube.

Brave, brave jihadi.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 09:45|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 09:45|| Front Page Top

#25 More eye-witness report;

The guy that was running, being chased by people from the station (including the flower seller - geddin!) described as a skinny asian with a small beard. Apparently, this guy said:
"What's wrong with these people"

Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 09:52||   2005-07-21 09:52|| Front Page Top

#26 One witness on ABC News (US) described an Asian (i.e. Pakistani) man of 17-18 years as the one running from the explosion scene.
Posted by ed 2005-07-21 09:54||   2005-07-21 09:54|| Front Page Top

#27 Quite RC...quite.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 09:54||   2005-07-21 09:54|| Front Page Top

#28 Well, nice to see all the outreach to the Islamic community worked out.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 09:55|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 09:55|| Front Page Top

#29 Beeb TV is digging an ever-larger hole for themselves. Their man on the scene at Warren Street described, "A witness said there was a small explosion but we don't know that there was actually an explosion." Terrorists aren't terrorists and now explosions aren't explosions? Sheesh!
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-21 09:58||   2005-07-21 09:58|| Front Page Top

#30 Jonah Goldberg (in London with his wife and daughter):

"ARMED OFFICERS [Jonah Goldberg]
Confirmed at University College Hospital. Apparently they're chasing a male, black, with wires protruding from sort of device."
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 10:00|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 10:00|| Front Page Top

#31 From the Corner (J. Goldberg is in London on vacation):

"Confirmed at University College Hospital. Apparently they're chasing a male, black, with wires protruding from sort of device."

One black suspect, one Asian (could be Pino, Indonesian, Thai?). This could be a very incompetent aQ redo, with a ethnically diverse Islamic crew to slip under the radar.
Posted by chthus">chthus  2005-07-21 10:02||   2005-07-21 10:02|| Front Page Top

#32 Apparently police are armed at University College Hospital (major incident apparently) - some talk about a 6'2" black or asian man with a blue top, with a hole in the back and wires coming out of it - bit garbled at the moment, it seems like the bloke is in the hospital. Talk about a suspected suicide bomber.

I'm getting this from Sky News - I refuse to watch the Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 10:03||   2005-07-21 10:03|| Front Page Top

#33 London cops looking for 6 foot male, young, black or asian, blue top with hole in it with wires coming out of it. Fox is showing cops searching a guy who fits description, now talking to him. They don't seem too concerned, don't think its the guy.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 10:04||   2005-07-21 10:04|| Front Page Top

#34 Maybe I should learn to type faster.

This site is gathering pertinent info better than any I can find currently. Thanks
Posted by chthus">chthus  2005-07-21 10:04||   2005-07-21 10:04|| Front Page Top

#35 bit garbled at the moment, it seems like the bloke is in the hospital. Talk about a suspected suicide bomber.

Speculation: They tried something like this in Iraq. Attack to cause casualties, then a suicide bomber at the hospital.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 10:05|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 10:05|| Front Page Top

#36 All these small dud-like explosions seem hard to figure. I hope that it is not intentional, like breaking open containers containing something that will not show up for a day or two.

Granted it does not seem likely but still I find the whole thing a bit odd.
Posted by Michael 2005-07-21 10:06||   2005-07-21 10:06|| Front Page Top

#37 One black suspect, one Asian (could be Pino, Indonesian, Thai?). This could be a very incompetent aQ redo, with a ethnically diverse Islamic crew to slip under the radar.

Asian is Brit-speak for pretty much anyone from east of the Med. I'd think Pakistani.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-21 10:07||   2005-07-21 10:07|| Front Page Top

#38 Beeb says they've swept Warren St. Station for chem/bio weapons and found nothing. Bad batch of homebrew explosives perhaps?
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-21 10:08||   2005-07-21 10:08|| Front Page Top

#39 All these small dud-like explosions seem hard to figure. I hope that it is not intentional, like breaking open containers containing something that will not show up for a day or two.

Yikes. I think I'd prefer the incompetant wannabe's screwing up their attack.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-07-21 10:09|| http://www.punictreachery.com/]">[http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-07-21 10:09|| Front Page Top

#40 He then tried to run for it and three or four passengers chased after him, but they couldn't catch him.

At least they tried to catch him.
Posted by eLarson 2005-07-21 10:11|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com]  2005-07-21 10:11|| Front Page Top

#41 There's a copper at the end of Downing Street just been pointing a rather nasty Hechler and Koch at a bloke. They've just taken him away with his shirt open. Probably nothing, but they're obviously not taking any chances.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 10:18||   2005-07-21 10:18|| Front Page Top

#42 The authorities are talking about "attempted explosions"...so this could indicate that the bombs dit not work.....BBC now reports about an arrest
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-21 10:19||   2005-07-21 10:19|| Front Page Top

#43 Asian is Brit-speak for pretty much anyone from east of the Med

Thanks, didn't realize that.

I'm hoping for imcompetence over something more coniving. A stray thought, there's always a slight chance that this is some sort of street protest by some idiot group of lefties. The animal rights groups over there have been blowing up people's cars for years, wouldn't put it past them to try and show some confused solidarity with the Islamists.
Posted by chthus">chthus  2005-07-21 10:19||   2005-07-21 10:19|| Front Page Top

#44 Speculation: They tried something like this in Iraq. Attack to cause casualties, then a suicide bomber at the hospital.

Good God RC, I hope not - if that happens, I think this place might go mental.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 10:20||   2005-07-21 10:20|| Front Page Top

#45 I'm hoping for imcompetence over something more coniving.

Incompetence in an attempt at murder is not comforting.

A stray thought, there's always a slight chance that this is some sort of street protest by some idiot group of lefties.

Possible, but descriptions of the suspects make that unlikely.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 10:21|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 10:21|| Front Page Top

#46 Story so far, nothing on the hospital chase(?), though the police deployment is mentioned.

http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/
the_north_east/news/NEWS0.html
"More bomb blasts in London
Four bombs were planted and at least two have exploded on London transport this afternoon. One person is reported injured in the attacks that are being described by police as "smaller than before".

A nail bomb exploded on a Tube train at Warren Street, where eye witnesses also reported seeing a young Asian man dump a rucksack and run from the scene.

A second bomb exploded on the top deck of the No.26 bus on Colombia Road in Bethnal Green.

Police have also reported bombs at Oval and above ground at one of the Shepherds Bush stations, which have been evacuated and cordoned off.

Armed police and dogs have been deployed at University College Hospital, near Warren Street.

Police are investigating the possibility that the injured person at Warren Street might have planted the bomb.

Though the No.26 bus had its upper deck windows blown out, no one was hurt.

A "Code Amber" alert has been declared on the Underground, however the majority of lines are still running.

London Underground (LU) has suspended the Victoria, Northern and Hammermith and City lines.

Westminster and Waterloo Tube stations were also closed.

Early witness reports maintained that shots had been fired, though the possibility is being investigated that these were exploding detonators that failed to set off their bombs.

Emergency services have been sent to all three Tube stations and the bus scene, Scotland Yard said.

Eye witnesses at Warren Street are reporting seeing the explosion itself, and others that a young Asian man was actually pursued out of the station.

Brief scenes of panic erupted as travellers poured onto the street.

The London Amublance Service (LAS) reported sending four three ambulances to The Oval at 12.38pm, and five to Warren Street at 12.45pm.

The Prime Minister has cancelled an afternoon engagement and the government's COBRA emergency group is meeting.


Read more about this story at www.thisislocallondon.co.uk."
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-07-21 10:24||   2005-07-21 10:24|| Front Page Top

#47 Incompetence in an attempt at murder is not comforting.

Indeed, didn't mean to indicate that it was. But an incompetent failure at explosions is better than a competent bio attack meant to look like incompetent explosions. Bad over worse only, no pure good to be found in this shit.
Posted by chthus">chthus  2005-07-21 10:24||   2005-07-21 10:24|| Front Page Top

#48 News Conference: Blair and Howard

MSM tool : Can we blame this on Iraq

Howard (paraphrased): No government of mine will ever bow to terrorism. 88 Australians killed in Bali before Iraq, 9/11 happened before Iraq and Bin Laden first mentioned getting at Australia when Australia had liberated East Timor. It's about hatred of a way of life.

Blair: The people responsible for terrorism are the terrorists
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 10:57||   2005-07-21 10:57|| Front Page Top

#49 no pure good to be found

Perhaps not. It's very early, but something like this might suggest:

1. The jihadi bench is not very deep.
2. British investigations of the previous attack may be so effective that today's attackers figured, "Use it or lose it."
3. The evidence from today will lead the Brits to even more jihadi cells and (hopefully) at a minimal cost in lives.
Posted by Dreadnought 2005-07-21 11:01||   2005-07-21 11:01|| Front Page Top

#50 Dreadnought, I think it infinitely more likely that this is just a screw-up. Duds happen in Iraq and Israel, too, so why wouldn't they happen in London?
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 11:04|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 11:04|| Front Page Top

#51 Armed police have arrested a man at gunpoint near the entrance to Downing Street.
The suspect, of Asian origin, was led away in handcuffs as a police officer trained his MP5 sub-machine gun on him.
The man appeared to be naked underneath his jacket.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 11:17||   2005-07-21 11:17|| Front Page Top

#52 I just watched the press conference. Howard is GREAT. Better than Blair. Loved how he eviscerated the journalist who tried to blame the coalition for liberating Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was on CNN, so Amanpour(spit) quickly got on the screen and screamed that of course terrorism IS our fault and we should never have gone to Iraq! Had to switch it off. F*** CNN.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 11:21||   2005-07-21 11:21|| Front Page Top

#53 when the pogroms start - I hope they go after Christine, Ken, Galloway, and other known traitors, rather than Mo-Shmoe on the street.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 11:34||   2005-07-21 11:34|| Front Page Top

#54 more likely that this is just a screw-up.

Which is exactly why it's indicative of the quality of the jihadi. In Iraq, there's a long conveyor belt of terrorists from Syria. You set up 50 IEDs and some of them are bound to fail.

But when you're operating in enemy territory (or should we call the UK semi-enemy territory?), any time you run an operation, you, as the planner, must assume that the police will walk the cat back and roll up your entire operation. Four duds (if that is what they really are) isn't just an Oops!; it's a sign of organizational degradation. I've been reading about terrorist organizations in Czarist Russia (People's Will, Socialist Revolutionaries, etc.), and the hardest man to replace was the bomb-maker. Inexperienced bomb-makers were a hazard to themselves and in several cases left an assassin with the unpleasant experience of heaving a bomb at the target and having nothing happen.

Also, from a forensic standpoint, my other point still stands. An unexploded (or partially so) weapon provides a ton of information, which will bring down yet another cell. All in all, a bad day for Jihad, Inc.
Posted by Dreadnought 2005-07-21 11:44||   2005-07-21 11:44|| Front Page Top

#55 Did any "moderate" UK Moslems denounce this new plot yesterday, finger the Islamofascists involved yesterday, and go on public record to oppose jihad (any day)?

Just asking... wondering when the "moderate" Moslem is going to show up.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 11:52||   2005-07-21 11:52|| Front Page Top

#56 RE #55 - she was on the train. From Sky News -

Sofiane Mohellebi, a French Muslim who was also on the train, said: "There was a smell like wires or tyres, but it wasn't the train making the burning smell. There was no noise. People were screaming and panicking but we managed to get off the train."


Analysis: This proves the Joos did it.

How, you ask? Well, if the Lions if Islam had done it, they woulda got all their brothers and sisters off the train first - like the Jooos got all of their people out of the WTC on 9/11. And if we didn't get all our folks out of harms way, then we would be not-as-smart as the Jooos...waitaminute...
Posted by Abu-Mushab al-Dumbo">Abu-Mushab al-Dumbo  2005-07-21 12:05||   2005-07-21 12:05|| Front Page Top

#57 "just asking... wondering when the "moderate" Moslem is going to show up."

one moderate muslim woman showed up dead on the tube two weeks ago.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 12:36||   2005-07-21 12:36|| Front Page Top

#58 Ima large hear crickets
Posted by Howard UK 2005-07-21 12:51||   2005-07-21 12:51|| Front Page Top

#59 You're really pathetic, liberalhawk. Do you think one's ideas are determined by biological state? is that the best you have to offer in terms of "moderate" Moslems?

Was she a "moderate" just because she died in a terrorist attack? or do you have evidence that she campaigned in public against Islamofascism, taqiya, jihad and sharia?
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 12:52||   2005-07-21 12:52|| Front Page Top

#60 Think we need a Tax on all worshipers of Allan, this tax would cover all of the extra security measures that the british people need,including some of their own kind.I want to see billions spent on anti terrorist stuff,humint-sigint,guns,cruise missles,fckin AT AT walkers and i want to see it all funded by the Muslim tax payer,fair enough we'll still pay for the army and airforce and coastgaurd and such but anti terror money comes straight outa thier pockets,if not we should send the D-9's into all of the Uk's spired ammo dumps,mosque that is. Angry.
Posted by Shep UK 2005-07-21 12:58||   2005-07-21 12:58|| Front Page Top

#61 "One moderate muslim woman showed up dead on the tube two weeks ago."
Only someone thick would say something like this and at a time like this!
The IslamoNazis are probably "glad" for that reason that they killed her, along with the other innocents.
"Moderate" Muslims are always the first to go along with we other kaffir and infidels because they're "collaborating" with the infidels.

Tony, Shep, Howard and Bulldog, you guys take care of yourselves!
We love our English friends and it's very distressing to see London as the target again today.
(Although the good news is that the bad guys' bombs didn't go off. Hooray!)
I'm glad that John Howard was there to give Tony Blair a pep talk on not bowing to terrorism.
Stay safe and alive, Britain--we are with you!
Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro  2005-07-21 13:09|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2005-07-21 13:09|| Front Page Top

#62 one moderate muslim woman showed up dead on the tube two weeks ago.

And her being murdered proves her moderation... how, exactly?

I'm not saying I know her politics -- just that you don't, either. That you're so desperate to cling to the idea of the moderates that you're willing to make shit up.

Why didn't the moderates -- who, we're told, make up the vast majority -- notice something odd about this latest crew and turn them in? One report is claiming the latest bombs are identical in design to the last ones, meaning THEY HAD A BATHTUB FULL OF CHEMICALS TO BREW UP THE EXPLOSIVES. After the last one, someone connected the mixing of the bombs to the odd smells and death of the bushes at the mixing site. If the bombs are the same design in this case, surely the same mixing took place -- why didn't anyone notice?

If the vast majority are moderates, the radicals should stand out like sore thumbs, and the moderates should have no problem identifying them. Yet they don't identify them -- is it because they don't stand out, or they don't have a problem with them?

Don't give me the excuses about fear of the Islamists, or worrying about a backlash. We're long past that. FAILURE to act will bring the backlash.

And, honestly, I can't say it won't be deserved.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 13:21|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 13:21|| Front Page Top

#63 Thanks Jen - I got an update from family in London and they're obviously ok.

We always knew there would be more attacks after 7/7, and this time it looks like we were lucky. There will be more attacks, and in some of those, we won't be lucky.

They're not going to win - all that is going to happen is that the line that should not be crossed gets closer.

And then, this will happen. And then things will get nasty.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-21 13:33||   2005-07-21 13:33|| Front Page Top

#64 
"just asking... wondering when the "moderate" Moslem is going to show up."

"one moderate muslim woman showed up dead on the tube two weeks ago."


The more I think about this little exchange, the less sense it makes, into the negative region even.
Why the knee jerk--to the point of inanity--defense of the Musselmen at the slightest provocation?
The IslamoNutters clearly don't care who they kill or whether they kill fellow Muslims.
In fact, if they're are Muslim victims like Ms. Islam, it actually gives them cover (for a while) that Muslims couldn't possibly have done it or that they're to be doled out sympathy along with the other victims' "groups" which is precisely what our site apologist is trying to do.
Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro  2005-07-21 13:34|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2005-07-21 13:34|| Front Page Top

#65 Why the knee jerk--to the point of inanity--defense of the Musselmen at the slightest provocation?

Because the Left sees the current "troubles" as aimed at bringing down governments they don't like (ie, Bush). They don't look past this, as the Left's desire to return to power exceeds all other considerations.
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-07-21 13:44|| http://www.punictreachery.com/]">[http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-07-21 13:44|| Front Page Top

#66 "Do you think one's ideas are determined by biological state? is that the best you have to offer in terms of "moderate" Moslems?

Was she a "moderate" just because she died in a terrorist attack? "

No, i read an article about her, she seemed like someone moderate. Sorry dont have a link, and the article was short.


"or do you have evidence that she campaigned in public against Islamofascism, taqiya, jihad and sharia?"

I doubt she campaigned for or against anything. Most folks arent activists. Your hurdle for being a moderate is higher than mine is.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 13:46||   2005-07-21 13:46|| Front Page Top

#67 "Do you think one's ideas are determined by biological state? is that the best you have to offer in terms of "moderate" Moslems?

Was she a "moderate" just because she died in a terrorist attack? "

No, i read an article about her, she seemed like someone moderate. Sorry dont have a link, and the article was short.


"or do you have evidence that she campaigned in public against Islamofascism, taqiya, jihad and sharia?"

I doubt she campaigned for or against anything. Most folks arent activists. Your hurdle for being a moderate is higher than mine is.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 13:47||   2005-07-21 13:47|| Front Page Top

#68 "Do you think one's ideas are determined by biological state? is that the best you have to offer in terms of "moderate" Moslems?

Was she a "moderate" just because she died in a terrorist attack? "

No, i read an article about her, she seemed like someone moderate. Sorry dont have a link, and the article was short.


"or do you have evidence that she campaigned in public against Islamofascism, taqiya, jihad and sharia?"

I doubt she campaigned for or against anything. Most folks arent activists. Your hurdle for being a moderate is higher than mine is.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 13:48||   2005-07-21 13:48|| Front Page Top

#69 "Why the knee jerk--to the point of inanity--defense of the Musselmen at the slightest provocation?"

why the knee jerk response to what i post?

Look, somebody asked a question. I answered it. You dont want somebody to defend moderate muslims, dont ask where they are. You ask something, you gotta expect somebody might answer it.

RC - Why didnt they smell the chemicals? I dont know. Maybe that particular neighborhood in Leeds all the muslims ARE supportive of terror. Maybe the terrs picked that neighborhood for that reason. Maybe they hid the smell better. I dont know and neither do you. I dont see how you can jump from that to the conclusion that there are NO moderate muslims in Britain.

I will defer here to Tony Blair, who actually has reports from Scotland Yard, etc on what is going in the muslim communities of Britain.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 13:53||   2005-07-21 13:53|| Front Page Top

#70 lh you are grasping at straws.

IF the MMMs (mythical moderate Moslem) were indeed prevalent, it wouldn't be so hard to point them out. Instead you resort to claiming a corpse and holding it up as your imaginary friend.

Your difficulty is that a Moslem opposed to jihad by the sword would have to be a RADICAL. Regular Moslems are an orthodox majority, meaning that they support taqiya, jihad and sharia. Islamofascists are merely implementing the orthodox beliefs of most Moslems, AS HAS BEEN AMPLY DOCUMENTED in e.g. surveys of world-wide Moslem support for Bin Laden.

MMMs are mythical because we hear about them in the MSM and from modern-liberals like you -- but we never see them in action. So the best you have to offer is to appropriate someone who's dead, and you do that just because she happens to have been killed by Islamofascists.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 14:08||   2005-07-21 14:08|| Front Page Top

#71 *sigh*

When the moderates appear in large enough numbers to have an impact on the war, let me know. I suspect it will be long after I'm dead, though.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 14:32|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 14:32|| Front Page Top

#72 While I have no intention of defending LH's words, I have to agree with his underlying point re: the overly high standard for "non-activist" Muslims.

There are several simultaneous arguments going on here. Let's not lump them into one.

1. Islam is a hate ideology that needs to be dealt with as such. The madrassas and the mosques preaching hate need to be shut down. We also need to identify those followers who have already drank the kool-aid and are spreading the disease. We need to cut off the flow of the Saudi funding.

2. That non-activist muslims need to do more to help root out the bad apples in their midst. Absolutely. They will be the ultimate victims if they do not.

3. That the ordinary person born into the Muslim faith is to blame for these attacks

I will again point to our own sad history in the south to make a parallel that is very realistic. Whites who did not condone slavery, and later racism, were forced into keeping quiet through many means - the threat of outright violence, and the softer more venomous use of the term "ni%$^r lover". And of course there was the fact that whites were born into the culture where it was Ok to enslave the blacks and they believed it to be true. I don't underacknowledge the danger we face from that last point.

I do acknowledge the danger of beliefs but IMHO, there is a vast chasm between those who assist terrorists by their inaction v/s those that actually assisted or openly supported hanging someone from a tree.

Non-activist muslims need to speak up. They need to help root out the bad guys. They need to help tell the authorities who is preaching hate in the mosques. If they don't they are a very bad spot that is only going to get worse, far worse, as this war continues.

They only need look to our own civil war to see just how dire the cosequences can be if they don't find a way of integrating into their host democratic societies.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 14:40||   2005-07-21 14:40|| Front Page Top

#73 Raul Marc Gerecht, in the Weekly Standard

"Moderates surely represent the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Europe, but like their post-Christian European counterparts, they usually express their moderation in detachment from religious affairs.

Though Europeans often fail to see it, the secularization of the Muslims living in their midst has been, by and large, a great success. It explains why Muslim activists gain so much attention, be they arch-conservatives, like the devotees of the Tabligh movement in Britain and on the continent who espouse segregation in Europe, or "progressives," like the Switzerland-based intellectual Tariq Ramadan, who refuses forthrightly to declare the Muslim Holy Law null and void as a political testament for Muslims in a European democracy. The moderates have abandoned the field. They have become European. The militants, who perhaps should be seen as deviants from a largely successful process of secularization, are the only ones left ardently praying."

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 14:46||   2005-07-21 14:46|| Front Page Top

#74 "IF the MMMs (mythical moderate Moslem) were indeed prevalent, it wouldn't be so hard to point them out. Instead you resort to claiming a corpse and holding it up as your imaginary friend.

Your difficulty is that a Moslem opposed to jihad by the sword would have to be a RADICAL. Regular Moslems are an orthodox majority, meaning that they support taqiya, jihad and sharia. Islamofascists are merely implementing the orthodox beliefs of most Moslems, AS HAS BEEN AMPLY DOCUMENTED in e.g. surveys of world-wide Moslem support for Bin Laden.

MMMs are mythical because we hear about them in the MSM and from modern-liberals like you -- but we never see them in action. So the best you have to offer is to appropriate someone who's dead, and you do that just because she happens to have been killed by Islamofascists."


I didnt say they were prevalent (though Gerecht does). Not prevelant doesnt mean non-existent. Or even unimportant.

as for surveys, the latest ones ive seen show support for OBL going down. And significant numbers who never supported him.

There are 2 billion muslims. If 10% oppose OBL, thats 200 million human beings.

We never see them in action? What actions do you want to see? You want to see them going around and lynching radical muslims? Maybe theyre uncomfortable with lynching. Maybe they want to leave this to the police. They makes statements, but thats tossed out as takiya. Some probably work with the police, but thats naturally something that isnt public (and when they do work for LE as translators,etc all some folks are interested in are the few who betray)


Somebody asked why the knee jerk response. For the sake of the WOT, of course. Al Qaeeda wants to turn this into a war of civilizations. They are NOT content that moderate muslims quietly live their lives, and arent activists. THEY want them to support AQ, actively, which they dont. Few things serve AQ better than stirring up indiscriminate anti-muslims hatred in the west. So y'all are objectively pro-AQ when you try to stir this up.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 14:54||   2005-07-21 14:54|| Front Page Top

#75 I'm wondering if there are not some parallels here between the MMM and the KKK a few years back. Were there any "moderates" in the south who detested lynchings? Did they rise up and identify the guys hiding under the white sheets?

Were all the police in agreement with the KKK, or were some in fear of the KKK? How many mythical southern liberals wanted to do something, but didn't know where to start?

Then the Feds came in after the murders of civil rights workers and LBJ (a southerner) had had enuff.

How did Capone's gang get by in Chicago? No one pointed out Dillinger, the Feds got him, and not for racketeering, either.

Who takes the high ground in Sicily about the um... bad-guy families? Do we see those in the press? Isn't there a French judge with a reputation for fighting terrorists. (I know, but he is obviously the exception to the rule!)

Why didn't mythical moderate Germans stand up to Hitler? Ask Rommel. He at least was given the choice of suicide when his name came up.

Why did the Christians, Mulims, and (whoever the other group was - Orthodox?) wait until Tito died to break up Yugoslovia? Strong central control? Do we wanna be like Tito's Yugoslovia?

There have been some examples here of minor, moderate expressions of concern by various Muslim groups, but even then there are complaints of too little, too late, and it must be a lie anyway.

It seems 2b and I overlapped a bit.

Consider this: When somebody does turn in OBL, will he/she appear on the front page of the New York Times? Somebody did rat out Saddam, and I hope he or she is still alive.

Phil made good points too. I hope we do not have to become the enemy to defeat him!
Posted by Bobby 2005-07-21 15:00||   2005-07-21 15:00|| Front Page Top

#76 2b:
Non-activist muslims need to speak up. They need to help root out the bad guys. They need to help tell the authorities who is preaching hate in the mosques. If they don't they are a very bad spot that is only going to get worse, far worse, as this war continues.

This is mostly what I've said, only I believe they shouldn't just tell the authorities, but also the general population. We have a right to know of the danger in our midst, and if the Muslims themselves aired out their dirt, it would go a hell of a long way towards establishing trust.

But, personally, my patience is wearing thin. Yesterday, had you asked, I would have said, "six more months, and if there's nothing from the moderates, we *have* to start asking them -- and ourselves -- questions that are damned unpleasant". Today, after *this* bombing, I can't support that much time.

It's been four years since 9/11. Two and a half since Bali. Three since the Moscow Theater. Almost a year since Beslan. The Islamists target children, intentionally, every day in Iraq. God knows the entire world has been made aware of the danger, what the Islamists are willing to do.

Yet the people in the best position to expose the danger, to root it out, are not merely silent, but obstructive.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 15:00|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 15:00|| Front Page Top

#77 you know LH..you've made a good point. But your words about the dead muslim woman were just freaking inflamatory and plain wrong. Admit it so we can move on.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:00||   2005-07-21 15:00|| Front Page Top

#78 what exactly is inflammatory about pointing out that a muslim woman died?

Are you saying im inflaming people against the salafi jihadis, who blood thirst is directed against muslims too? If so, then so be it.

Heres something interesting - hattip, gateway pundit, via instapundit

"George Bush the Prophet? When peace activists in Pakistan start pushing the "Bush Doctrine" it makes you wonder?

(Lahore, Pakistan) Noted religious and political figures gathered to call for fostering unity, patience and harmony between the West and Islam. They were addressing a seminar on "A Critical moment, inter-religious dialogue" held here (Lahore) Sunday under the aegis of Muslim-Christian Federation International. Secretary General, Pakistan Peoples Party Parliamentarian, Jehangir Badar on the occasion said that:

"...democracy could ensure global peace..."
and added that the terrorism was spreading due to misunderstanding among religions.

....

And, after the London attacks, the global anti-terrorism voices have possibly gained in numbers and strength. There have been several peace rallies held by interfaith groups. One group calling itself the Muslim Christian Federation International held a rally against terror in Lahore, Pakistan this week.

A group calling itself the "Muslim Christian Federation International" rallied in Lahore, Pakistan to condemn recent suicide bombings in London, Wednesday, July 20, 2005. The sign at the bottom reads, "We condemn London bombings!" (AP)

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:08||   2005-07-21 15:08|| Front Page Top

#79 There is a small enclave of muslims here where I live and for the most part are very secular. Their children listen to contemporary music, attend the public schools, and you rarely see the women and girls in hajib. That having been said, I wonder how complete their secularism is. If they go to an "Islamic Conference" and "see the error of their ways" and become the most ardent defender of the "Book of Hate and Murder" what will happen? I've seen the same phenomenon in Christian communities. Someone is a complete "backslider" and is totally immersed in "sin", a particular Preacher hits the right strings and they become fanatical in their desire to "spread the holy word of God" and are the most pious members of the church. The difference, of course, is they don't become mobile self-demolition experts.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2005-07-21 15:09||   2005-07-21 15:09|| Front Page Top

#80 I agree with you Robert. And as of this last week, I have felt that we have passed a thresh-hold and it has become clear that this war is going to get far more bloody and ruthless before it gets better. I'm saddened by that. I also think you are right that time is not on the side of the ordinary Muslim of doing what needs to be done. But it's not just Muslims we should be blaming. What about our own apologist liberals? Thanks to them, we can't take the necessary steps to simply close down the mosques, deport, and imprison to squelch this with minimal violence. Our liberals have as lethal of an ideology as do the Muslims. One need only look to the millions of dead they are responsible for facilitating through appeasment and a refusal to take actions to confront evil forcefully.

People are born into a faith. It is unrealistic to think they are going to drop it and walk away. Just like in the south all whites weren't evil. Let's keep the focus on the bad guys and encourage the better nature of those who just want to live in peace.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:09||   2005-07-21 15:09|| Front Page Top

#81 "Yet the people in the best position to expose the danger, to root it out, are not merely silent, but obstructive."

do you know who the bombers hung out with? how much they revealed about themselves? What mosques they attended?

Heck, the most modern, secularized muslims dont spend much time in mosques (see the Gerecht article). How would they know whats going on in them?

Or do you think Weekly Standard is an appeasers rag?
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:10||   2005-07-21 15:10|| Front Page Top

#82 "People are born into a faith. It is unrealistic to think they are going to drop it and walk away."

Most muslims werent born into Wahabi Islam. Its so widespread because of a sustained campaign of propaganda, of taking over mosques and muslim institutions etc.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:11||   2005-07-21 15:11|| Front Page Top

#83 "If they go to an "Islamic Conference" and "see the error of their ways" and become the most ardent defender of the "Book of Hate and Murder" what will happen?"

And we stop that from happening by telling them that the extremists are RIGHT, that thats the only authentic form of Islam?
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:13||   2005-07-21 15:13|| Front Page Top

#84 they go to an "Islamic Conference" and "see the error of their ways"

This is what we need to confront. And yet, thanks to those who refuse to take these smaller steps, in the name of multi-culturalism or whatever you want to call it - we can't do it. The result will be blood spilt, maybe yours or mine, in the quest to be "fair" or to uphold "higher ideals". That is, IMHO, the liberal legacy. A refusal to act - a willingness to ignore bad behavior and allow it to get out of control. An absolute refusal to see that you can't tolerate hate or murder under the banner of "undertanding root causes". bleah.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:19||   2005-07-21 15:19|| Front Page Top

#85 heres another moderate muslim - perhaps posting this is inflammatory. Im sure the mullahs think so. May they be damned.

"Ganji Is Near Death in Iranian Prison, a Dissident Reports

BY ELI LAKE - Staff Reporter of the Sun
July 18, 2005

WASHINGTON - Akbar Ganji's 36-day hunger strike has nearly cost the Iranian dissident his life, according to a writer recently released from the Tehran prison that holds Mr. Ganji, whom President Bush and European Union leaders have demanded the mullahs set free.

In a telephone interview from Tehran, a former political prisoner who was released temporarily from Evin prison at the end of June, Amir Abbas Fakhravar, told The New York Sun that Mr. Ganji's kidneys had failed and that he was seen yesterday by two fellow inmates in Evin's hospital wing laying unconscious on a floor as two guards tried to prop him up.

"I received word this afternoon from two inmates who saw Akbar Ganji in the prison hospital and was not moving at all. Two guards were trying to get him to walk, but he was unconscious, lying on the ground and not able to walk," Mr. Fakhravar said. "He is on the verge of dying.""

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:22||   2005-07-21 15:22|| Front Page Top

#86 "What about our own apologist liberals? Thanks to them, we can't take the necessary steps to simply close down the mosques, deport, and imprison to squelch this with minimal violence. Our liberals have as lethal of an ideology as do the Muslims"

Close down WHICH mosques? Im all for closing down those mosques and deporting those imams, that have incited terror. Hell, the French have deported a bunch of imams. Blair has been more cautious - closing only finsbury park, and deporting Abu Hamza, and taking far too long to do that. But hes moving faster now, and even the Lib Dems seem to be supporting it.

If youre talking about closing ALL mosques, that I have a problem with. And no, its not just liberals, or just Democrats, who stand with me on that.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-21 15:26||   2005-07-21 15:26|| Front Page Top

#87 will you quit? Jeesh. You've made your point. There are muslims who want to live in peace. Billions of them. So what? Is that going to stop this war? Is that going to keep it from escalating? No. Not unless they join the fight.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:27||   2005-07-21 15:27|| Front Page Top

#88 And as of this last week, I have felt that we have passed a thresh-hold and it has become clear that this war is going to get far more bloody and ruthless before it gets better. I'm saddened by that.

I'm unbelievably depressed by it. The idea that no one twigged to today's attack, there was no one in a position to expose it, or that no one cared to, is crushing.

People are born into a faith. It is unrealistic to think they are going to drop it and walk away.

Absolutely right. But is it unrealistic to expect them to defend that faith, when they see it being corrupted? That's what the moderate storyline says, that terrorism is a corruption of Islam.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 15:27|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 15:27|| Front Page Top

#89 And when did I say I wanted to close ALL mosques? When did I say I wanted them give up their faith? When did I disagree with you that the majority of them want to live in peace. That probably most whites disapproved of slavery did not stop the civil war. This war has gotten beyond the point that we can hold up poster children for Muslim moderation and stop the bombing in our cities. In case you haven't noticed, there is a war going on.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:30||   2005-07-21 15:30|| Front Page Top

#90 Probably sooner rather than later those Muslims who do want to live in peace are going to have to decide which side of the fence they are on. They can't be fence-sitters forever.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2005-07-21 15:34||   2005-07-21 15:34|| Front Page Top

#91 But is it unrealistic to expect them to defend that faith, when they see it being corrupted

Sigh. It's like watching a train going full speed towards a bridge that's collapsed and knowing there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it in time.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:34||   2005-07-21 15:34|| Front Page Top

#92 I will stop talking about MMMs when I see Moslems in the West actively working against Islamofascism.

Yes, it requires work. Public effort. And rejecting certain doctrines, such as taqiya, jihad and sharia. There is no moderate interpretation of these Islamic tools of conquest and submission. Just as there was no moderate interpretation of Nazism.

If Moslems want to keep faith in their god, I don't care. But they've got to give up the murderous parts of their ideology.

What liberals fail to understand is that we are reaching the point where all Moslems in Western countries are going to be held accountable for the actions of Islamofascist -- precisely because there is no clear distinction between the two. Such distinction does not consist in pious vows or hand-waving or holding up a corpse or telling the story of a prisoner in Iran. It requires very public, sustained action. It's up to them to demonstrate that their religion will not continue to oppose our freedom.

Entirely up to them.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-21 15:44||   2005-07-21 15:44|| Front Page Top

#93 Don't just blame the Muslims, Kalle. The liberal apologists, the Galloways, the BBC, and all of the people who, in the name of "a higher cause" refuse to allow meaningful, bold steps to be taken to stop the spread of the hateful ideology. They are every bit as much to blame.

I'm depressed. I'm going to go to the pool.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 15:52||   2005-07-21 15:52|| Front Page Top

#94 Comment #92 all by itself makes this thread a keeper. That's EXACTLY the way it is.
Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-21 15:53||   2005-07-21 15:53|| Front Page Top

#95 Sigh. It's like watching a train going full speed towards a bridge that's collapsed and knowing there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it in time.

?

Is that for me, or for them?

I realize my comment applies both to the Islamists and the moderates. Both see the modern world as leading their faith into corruption. I just want to hear as much from the moderates as we do from the Islamists.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-21 16:12|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-21 16:12|| Front Page Top

#96 Izzis a great site, or what?
Posted by Bobby 2005-07-21 16:28||   2005-07-21 16:28|| Front Page Top

#97 "Izzis a great site, or what?"

Yup. It is. It's among the very best of the best, in my opinion.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-21 16:52||   2005-07-21 16:52|| Front Page Top

#98 Robert - I just meant to emphasize your point. Even if the Muslims and our liberal apologists are realizing that the train is headed for the edge, I just don't see that changes can be made fast enough to stop what is already in motion.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-21 18:21||   2005-07-21 18:21|| Front Page Top

#99 This argument with LiberalHawk reminds me of the arguments successfully made by those opposing quarantining the initial AIDS patients. The LiberalHawk type won their arguments and we see how wonderfully well AIDs has been contained and stamped out today.

LH I am so glad that due to the Lefts justified stance my boys born after the initial AIDs cases in the late 70s and 80-81 timeframe do not have to worry about catching AIDs today. It was completely quenched by the loonie lefts marvelous plan! What a complete victory!
Posted by 3dc 2005-07-21 18:51||   2005-07-21 18:51|| Front Page Top

#100 100?
Posted by .com 2005-07-21 20:34||   2005-07-21 20:34|| Front Page Top

#101 .com: LH was evangelizing apologia....
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-07-21 20:44||   2005-07-21 20:44|| Front Page Top

#102 Ah, Business As Usual, then...
Posted by .com 2005-07-21 20:50||   2005-07-21 20:50|| Front Page Top

#103 Dang. I just knew that #99 weren't gonna sit there forever without someone comin' along sooner or later to make it an even hunnert. Just like a dog who can't let a fire hydrant go by unanointed...
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-21 20:58||   2005-07-21 20:58|| Front Page Top

#104 I've been out all day and this was the first thing I noticed when I refreshed, lol!
Posted by .com 2005-07-21 21:07||   2005-07-21 21:07|| Front Page Top

#105 hunnert an no aris? goddamer lh yoo relly gotin this rb stuff down paked. :)

fase it doodz. lh is maker this plase lot more intrastin.
Posted by muck4doo 2005-07-21 21:47|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-07-21 21:47|| Front Page Top

#106 Long ago I commented to Lh that he didn't seem to need anyone else to have a conversation - he could handle both sides himself - and did, regularly. ;-)
Posted by .com 2005-07-21 21:50||   2005-07-21 21:50|| Front Page Top

23:55 mojo
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22:30 GK
22:30 .com
22:22 Sherry
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22:09 trailing wife
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21:56 trailing wife
21:51 Dave D.
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