Article

2005-08-31 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Steve 2005-08-31 09:29|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It would be interesting to know what the Israelies think of this shift - incase they ever went head to head again.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2005-08-31 10:28|| 2005-08-31 10:28|| Front Page Top

#2 Military doctrine doesn't get made in a vacuum. The American style of training and fighting only works in a democracy with fairly fluid class and economic differences and where ethnic identity doesn't take precedence over national identity.

Those Iraqi units are learning more than just a way of doing military operations.

Posted by lotp 2005-08-31 10:44|| 2005-08-31 10:44|| Front Page Top

#3 It would be interesting to know what the Israelies think of this shift - in case they ever went head to head again.

We are, I hope, going to have a presence in Iraq for a good long time. I can't see us looking favourably on such a show of initiative on the part of the Iraqis. And anyway, everyone in that part of the world thinks either that Israel is an American client state, or that Israel actually controls America via that famous World Jewish Conspiracy. So I can't imagine they would think (when they begin to do such a thing) that America's Neocon overlords would ever permit such behaviour. Even if it isn't Bush in the White House at the time.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-08-31 11:52|| 2005-08-31 11:52|| Front Page Top

#4 The thing is, if the government and free market economy is followed after the American model, the military will retain its American model as well. If a dictatorship or theology takes over, the military will fall back on its centralized roll since the government fears a flexible and non-centralized command in its military. Israel should not fear either model, since a democracy is not very likely to target another country, even a hated one and a dictatorship is buisness as usual for Israel.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-08-31 12:28|| 2005-08-31 12:28|| Front Page Top

#5 Humm. One of the more flexible, prone to allowing low ranks taking initiatives and equalitarian (EVERYONE even the chief of state during visits ate the same thing when on the field) was the Nazi Wehrmacht. In fact it was more flexible, equalitarian and encourager of initiative than the French and British Army. In many aspects more than the WWII American Army.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2005-08-31 15:55|| 2005-08-31 15:55|| Front Page Top

#6 Readin about lootin in New Orleans - I think it is Americans learning from Iraqis.

Posted by Hank 2005-08-31 16:04|| 2005-08-31 16:04|| Front Page Top

#7 You are right JFM, the German Wehrmacht was the best army in the world. Much of the modern US small unit tactics and junior NCO leadership was learned from the Germans. Fortunately for the US, by the time D-Day rolled around, most of the good German units had been bled dry in Russia and the German leadership (see Hitler) had become paranoid and non-flexible in their running of the war and the rigid mindset filtered right down the ranks.

Posted by mmurray821 2005-08-31 17:28|| 2005-08-31 17:28|| Front Page Top

#8 Overwhelming air superiority didn't hoit either.

Anyway, good on the New Iraqi Army.

In some ways it kind of puts paid to the theory that it was a "grave mistake" to disband the "Old Iraqi Army".

Not saying doing so was a clever plot on our part (may have been) but as always there's no substitute for sheer dumb luck. It's one of our strngths.

Posted by Kelly 2005-08-31 18:00|| 2005-08-31 18:00|| Front Page Top

#9 Nearly as good as the Army of Northern Virginia - another losing outfit.

Posted by Shipman 2005-08-31 18:03|| 2005-08-31 18:03|| Front Page Top

#10 If Stonewall hadn't been shot by his own pickets... Hocks de jambon avec les verts de navet et le cornbread would be a staple on the White House menu.

Posted by Sleresh Glereng9165 2005-08-31 18:06|| 2005-08-31 18:06|| Front Page Top

#11 Hmmmm .... not sure that the confederacy had the economic base to win the ~~Civil war~~ War of Northern Aggression, although Jackson would have kept a pretty good insurgency going for a while longer.

Posted by lotp 2005-08-31 18:11|| 2005-08-31 18:11|| Front Page Top

#12 "War of Northern Aggression"

Word, lol.

Posted by Sleresh Glereng9165 2005-08-31 18:13|| 2005-08-31 18:13|| Front Page Top

#13 Ima find picture of merican 'fedaUps practicing with they advanced rpg.....

american fedaup

Posted by HalfEmpty 2005-08-31 18:17|| 2005-08-31 18:17|| Front Page Top

#14 There is only one General and that General is Nathan Bedford Forrest!

God is Great!

Posted by Red Dog 2005-08-31 19:10|| 2005-08-31 19:10|| Front Page Top

#15 "...I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damned scoundrel, and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it...I say to you that if you ever try to interfere with me or cross my path again it will be at the peril of your life."

Amen, RD.

Posted by .com 2005-08-31 21:26|| 2005-08-31 21:26|| Front Page Top

#16 I'm partial to Patton myself.

Here is where we grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the ass! We are going to grease the treads of our tanks with their living guts!

Posted by mmurray821 2005-08-31 22:16|| 2005-08-31 22:16|| Front Page Top

#17 I know he was little messianic, but MacArthur was a great American General.

Posted by badanov 2005-08-31 22:25|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2005-08-31 22:25|| Front Page Top

#18 At the operational level, I'm kind of partial to Grant, Sherman, Von Manstein, Kesselring, and MacArthur. At the tactical level, Mad Anthony Wayne, Rommel, Lee, Patton, Daniel Morgan, Wellington, and Marlboro rank high for me. There is no doubt that Forrest was a great tactician, but it is hard for me to hold him in high regard due to his excesses. The strategic level of war is perhaps the hardest to quantify. Often great generals are lousy strategic thinkers. Napoleon comes to mind in this regard. Bismarck was probably the greatest strategic mind of recent history. I'm not quite sure where to place Curtis LeMay, but I supect that I wouldn't be writing this today if not for his leadership of SAC during the early days of the Cold War.

Posted by 11A5S 2005-08-31 22:40|| 2005-08-31 22:40|| Front Page Top

#19 Okay.

As opposed to the others, Forrest led from the from the front. The real front. Gun in hand. The amazing exploits of this man - and what others who were eyewitnesses wrote of him - make him as amazing a fighting man as I've ever heard of.

At a place called Fallen Timbers, covering the Confederate retreat to Corinth after the battle of Shiloh, Forrest's cavalry met up with an advance unit of Grant's army.

Shelby Foote "The Civil War, volume 1:"
"Forrest saw his chance. 'Charge!' he shouted, and led his horsemen pounding down the slope. Most of the skirmishers had begun to run before he struck them, but those who stood were knocked sprawling by a blast from shotguns and revolvers. Beyond them, the Federal cavalry had panicked, firing their carbines wildly in the air. When they broke too, Forrest kept on after them, still brandishing his saber and crying 'Charge! Charge!' as he plowed into the solid ranks of the [infantry] brigade drawn up beyond.

The trouble was, he was charging by himself; the others, seeing the steady brigade front, had turned back and were already busy gathering up their 43 prisoners. Forrest was one gray uniform, high above a sea of blue.

'Kill him! Kill the goddam rebel! Knock him of his horse!' It was no easy thing to do; the horse was slashing and kicking and plunging and Forrest was hacking and slashing; but one of the soldiers did his best. Reaching far out, he shoved the
muzzle of his rifle in to the colonel's side and pulled the trigger.

The force of the explosion lifted Forrest clear out of the saddle, but he regained his seat and sawed the horse around. As he came out the mass of dark blue uniforms and furious white faces, clearing a path with his saber, he reached down and grabbed one of the soldiers by the collar, swung him onto the rear of the horse, and galloped back to safety, using the Federal as a shield against the bullets fired after him. Once he was out of range, he flung the hapless fellow off and rode on up to the ridge where his men were waiting in open-mouthed amazement."

And there were other amazing moments. That he survived is astonishing.

I recognize you're talking about generalship. I was actually thinking about leadership. All accounts of Forrest, from his men and his enemies, tells of a remarkable man. What his "leaders" and historical revisionists (Ft Pillow) may have had to say, I don't really care. This was a man's man, in a time when just maintaining your honor as a simple man demanded much more than we, today, can actually fathom. BTW, berserker behavior was considered temporary insanity, so Audie Murphy, et al, would not have been considered heroes during Forrest's day. Alvin York, yeah, that's closer, but still not quite there. Marching backwards when ordered to retreat from a battle and Pickett's troops holding their ranks in the face of grape shot is his world, the ethos of his time. Oh well, sorry for diverting from the wavelength everyone else is on. My bad.

I consider Von Manstein, from my limited readings, to have been a truly great commander. I'll have to learn more about "Mad Anthony Wayne", lol - not on my short list...

Posted by .com 2005-08-31 23:30|| 2005-08-31 23:30|| Front Page Top

#20 Let's talk field commanders then.

Guderian, von Kliest, Model, amd Hoepner.

Patton, Walton Walker (Korea War), Bradley.

Vatutin, Katukov, Malinovski, Golikov.

Posted by badanov 2005-08-31 23:45|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2005-08-31 23:45|| Front Page Top

#21 Let's not forget Virginia's greatest general, George H. Thomas, the Rock of Chickamauga, victor at Chattanooga, and at Nashville.

Should I duck now?

Posted by Eric Jablow">Eric Jablow 2005-09-01 00:00|| 2005-09-01 00:00|| Front Page Top

#22 Lol - you'll have to talk to 11A5S - I'm sure he knows them well. I've only read up on a few outside of the Civil War (which truly fascinates me) who caught my interest.

Model sounds like a brilliant man, but suffers from that "Hitler's General" label. von Kliest was treated shabbily (to say the least) by the Brits, Special Camp 11 and then deportation to the fucking Russians. The end of him, of course.

I'll look up the others to see what there is to see - Thx!

Posted by .com 2005-09-01 00:01|| 2005-09-01 00:01|| Front Page Top

00:01 .com
00:00 Eric Jablow
23:56 Robjack
23:54 badanov
23:48 Charles
23:45 badanov
23:42 BA
23:31 BA
23:30 .com
23:28 Frank G
23:25 Frank G
23:25 BA
23:18 BA
23:12 mom
23:08 mac
23:02 BA
23:01 Matt
22:59 Anonymoose
22:48 Redneck Jim
22:40 11A5S
22:25 badanov
22:25 Jackal
22:21 Jackal
22:16 mmurray821