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2003-09-02 Home Front

The Butcher of Clevelandâs Budget Strikes Again! Or Prepares To, Anyway ...

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Posted by Lu Baihu 2003-09-02 4:11:19 AM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 First of all Liberals don't usually drive SUV's!
(But I did just recently shed my Volvo LOL) I will never forget the Grand Fury ads on NY buses that had a picture of a baby--saying "Welcome to the US--the only industrialised country without a National Health Care Plan except for South Africa! And before you all pile on ask the steel workers from LTV how they ended up with no healthcare after the faux Chapter 11 filing! Welcome to the Iraq/American reality

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-2 4:50:57 AM|| 2003-9-2 4:50:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 PS I HAVE contributed via PayPal now let's all send Fred $$ for this fascinating forum!

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-2 4:57:43 AM|| 2003-9-2 4:57:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 PS When I lived in Cleveland I liked DK because he held off the assault from Ohio Edison to keep the municipal utility running--which saved everyone big bucks because we weren't left to the tender mercies of the private sector

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-2 5:27:07 AM|| 2003-9-2 5:27:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Every liberal I know drives an SUV (and has a compelling justification for doing so) but wants others to stop.

I grew up in Akron when Dennis K made Cleveland the laughing stock of the entire country. If he is elected President, we will no longer be hated all around the world. Europeans will be sending us invitations to the shildren's birthday parties for free entertainment.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-2 7:44:36 AM|| 2003-9-2 7:44:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 i dont drive an SUV, but then im a hawkish, pro-Leiberman/Edwards/Gephardt(except of the protectionism) liberal

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-9-2 10:33:51 AM|| 2003-9-2 10:33:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I stand corrected.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-2 10:55:54 AM|| 2003-9-2 10:55:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 In California if you are sick there are county hospitals that will take you, even if you cannot pay. How would universal health care be different? This just seems like something better decided on a county or state level to me.

Posted by Yank 2003-9-2 11:56:45 AM|| 2003-9-2 11:56:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Kucinich's mouth will guarantee he won't get the nomination. He's approaching the battle like an ill-trained recruit - firing from the hip on full automatic, while the enemy is still out of range. He'll be out of ammo before the primary.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-2 12:45:50 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-2 12:45:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Universal Health Care would involve longer lines to see doctors that acted like disinterested postal employees.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-2 12:55:37 PM|| 2003-9-2 12:55:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Super Hose, I'm not a supporter of Universal Health Care but would like to know what the followers of such believe the benefits will really be? I see it as a state issue myself.

If Universal Health Care in California was so wonderful and lack of Universal Health Care in Nevada so terrible I would expect to see a flow of people from Nevada to California but so far everyones going in the other direction, which leads me to believe jobs trump health care and this is another red hering. Sadly enough this fictitious issue is almost all the Dems have.

Posted by Yank 2003-9-2 1:24:25 PM|| 2003-9-2 1:24:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Universal Healthcare, what a joke. They've got it in Canada, and if they really have a problem they come across the border! Three to six week wait for an MRI anyone? What a crock. Mediocrity for all! Is that your rally cry? I work hard and have $10 co-pay for Dr's visits and prescriptions. You can take your Universal Healthcare and shove it.

Posted by Swiggles 2003-9-2 5:09:21 PM|| 2003-9-2 5:09:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 You know guy's there are millions of Americans out there most with children who work damned hard for a living and don't have anyhealth care coverage.Why?
Becuase thier employer's says the company can't afford it.These same people who don't have employer sposored health care can't get Fed/State/Cnty heatlh care.Why?
Because they make to much money.
When was the last time one of you guys priced private medical insurance?
Last time I checked Med Insurance for my wife(ex-,12 years now)was between$400.00-4600.00 dollares a month.Don't know about you,but I do not know many people who can afford that,especially with kids.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-2 6:00:30 PM|| 2003-9-2 6:00:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Sorry that was supposed to 400-600

Posted by raptor 2003-9-2 6:09:51 PM|| 2003-9-2 6:09:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 He's approaching the battle like an ill-trained recruit - firing from the hip on full automatic, while the enemy is still out of range.

On a totally guns-related note, a site actually said that the 5.56mm round used in M16s (see "In the Army Now" by Andy Dick) actually gained stopping power at long range - in the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, though :P

As for the Meiji Restoration reference, the first modern Japanese government (1868) kicked things off by instituting a flat tax, which promptly impoverished and bankrupted thousands if not millions of peasants who in fact had been spared by the adjusted-rate income tax that the preceding Tokugawa Shogunate, taxing the richest while sparing the poor. Though the daimyo were given land bonds in return for their lands, the case is simply that under the shogunate and our current system, the rich pay more than the poor and only keep up the "illusion" of inequality due to their higher-to-begin-with assets.

Under a tax system like this, I don't see how a sensible liberal can complain.

Posted by Lu Baihu 2003-9-2 6:25:48 PM|| 2003-9-2 6:25:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Yank,

I have not had direct experience with Universal Health Care, but I did have a health care experience that was simular in the late 80's. I was a young man in the Navy stationed in an area that had way to many naval personnel and their dependents. For health care dependents could receive health care on the base but only after all active duty military and military retired were treated first.
To meet the needs of the dependents the navy began to contract out health care. For example, my first child was born in the Portsmouth Naval Hospital but several years later my daughter was born in Virginia Beach General.

The worst part of this transition was when they contracted out all the immediate care work to one location. I never went in that place without having at least a three hour wait. Usually after continuous exposure to 60 or so sick kids, my kids came home with more symptoms than they had when we entered the clinic. The contract must have either included all the money up front or they must have been paid by the service was terrible. It was one of those places where the nurse issued you a helping of pseudophed and husstled you out the door everthough you were there for a broken collar bone.

The Navy solved the problems with the system because everyone's families including those of Admirals were negatively effected by the poor quailty.

As I've read about Universal Health Care Systems in other countries, they have all sounded simular to my experience in Virginia Beach with several exceptions. One important exception: rich/important people opt out of the system care in England, Canada and Europe. They pay out of pocket and end up seeing the best doctors. The admirals didn't make enough money to pass up free medical care, so there was some imputous for eliminaitng the poor service.

As a resident of Nevada, you should be better off than California. For several reasons:
1. Without at least a co-pay there is absolutely no systematic pressure to prevent every Joe Blow from going to the doctor for every case of the sniffles.
2. Under regular health care people with no money would be serviced in free clinics or places like the Shriners hospitals. A universal health care system should act as a giant magnet which attracts people with no resources which floods the system.
3. A flooded system always ends up in waiting, bureacracy, rationing of services and price controls.
4. In a case where there is a socialized system there will arise a seperate system of high end producers to service those who can pay out of pocket.
5. Good doctors that cannot gain the high end niche will flee to the nearest market where they can run their business without the price controls and excess paperwork that usually accompany a socialize dsystem. For example, after getting out of the service I lived and worked in a small town in Kentucky. All the local doctors were Canadien.

If the market doesn't change in Nevada, I would expect that you would receive excellent care from the quality doctors that evacuate California.

Other things to think about:
1. I receive high quality medical coverage from my employer who would be perfectly happy to have me receive low quality medical coverage from the government (federal, state or local.)
2. Medical insurance coverage for routine visits and small issues is highly ineffient and expensive overall. Only a dummy would by car insurance that covered oil changes.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-2 7:04:48 PM|| 2003-9-2 7:04:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I hate paying car insurance.

Please help me. I don't think any working American should go without food, shelter, health care, car insurance, fair gas prices, high quality bongs, cheap interest, high returns and low fat ribs. Make it happen people.

Posted by Shipman 2003-9-2 7:30:47 PM|| 2003-9-2 7:30:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Fear? What fear? Do you see fear here?"

No, but I should - Tom Ridge and Tommy Thompson should both be on the unemployment line.

Posted by John Anderson 2003-9-2 7:33:17 PM|| 2003-9-2 7:33:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 And Jobs. Good paying low work, low stress high esteem jobs damnit. Last week. Ones that folks like us can do better than them (name your immigrant) can. Except for (name you immigrant friend) he's okay and has excellent connections.

Posted by Shipman 2003-9-2 7:54:12 PM|| 2003-9-2 7:54:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I like the Universal Car Insurance coverage. Can we
make credit card interest deductible, too?

eL

Posted by eLarson 2003-9-2 8:32:37 PM|| 2003-9-2 8:32:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Having lived with universal medicare or socialized medicine in Canada, I would respectfully submit that medical care is generally pretty good. But there are several problems. The biggest problem is the delusion that everyone has that it is "free". Right. Pay for insurance or pay in tax. Take your pick. Over time, the cost of health care takes up a bigger chunk of government budgets. One of the problems with newer technology such as MRI is the cost of the equipment vs the size of the population is such that it makes no sense to provide the technololgy in all areas. But people think their local hospital should have every bell and whistle even though local doctors would not see sufficent cases to be properly competent. Ontario just closed two neonatal brain surgery facilities because the two in question had two to three times the mortality rate of the leading facility in Toronto; medical teams were not getting enough practise.

But generally business likes the system; all that health care cost is transferred to government. If you dig into those who support universal health care in the US, you will find big business hiding somewhere, as Dubya has found out and why he promoting Pharmacare.

Posted by john 2003-9-2 8:45:17 PM|| 2003-9-2 8:45:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Raptor, yet those children w/o health care somehow manage to get their shots to be admitted to school ($350++ for my daughter and our plan only covers up to $150). Where they get eye and ear exams for free.

The shots are subsidized.

Also,

Posted by Anonymous 2003-9-2 8:48:19 PM|| 2003-9-2 8:48:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I'd like to hear any of you smart asses wailing when you get downsized and thrown off the corporate tit--pay for your own health care in the "Free Market" for 20 years like I have--then you'll get the idea

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-2 11:20:49 PM|| 2003-9-2 11:20:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Anon,all you said is true.But that does not alter the fact that there are millions in this country who don't have medical coverage,why,because health insurance rates are outraegus.Ask any of these millions what they would rather have Socialized medicine or no medical care at all and see what aswer you get.Sounds to me like you are saying"I've got mine screw you".
As to the car insurance thing.When the state of Arizona passed mandatory automobile insurance my rates were $22/month,within 6 months my rates jumped to $37/month and that was for the bare minimum.Seems to me with every regestered car in Az.required to carry insurance my rates should not be more than$10-15/month.
Who was the biggest proponent of mandatory insurance,Mutual of Rip-off.

Posted by raptor 2003-9-3 8:16:56 AM|| 2003-9-3 8:16:56 AM|| Front Page Top

08:16 raptor
00:06 Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire
23:58 Old Patriot
23:54 Bomb-a-rama
23:52 SOG475
23:49 Old Patriot
23:49 Bomb-a-rama
23:39 R. McLeod
23:20 Not Mike Moore
23:19 tu3031
23:13 Not Mike Moore
23:07 Not Mike Moore
23:04 tu3031
23:00 tu3031
22:53 tu3031
22:48 Sara
22:31 Me
22:22 Not Mike Moore
22:19 Not Mike Moore
22:16 Super Hose
22:15 Not Mike Moore
22:12 Not Mike Moore
22:11 Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire
22:08 Not Mike Moore