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2004-09-20 Europe

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Posted by Zenster 2004-09-20 9:45:31 PM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I can hear Uber_Islamic say it now it "it was the Jews" when we all know it was some Jihadi (maybe even foreign ones like from Iran, or Syria.)

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-20 12:54:18 AM|| 2004-09-20 12:54:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Where's Boris and Murat... smells like Zionists to me, eh lads?

Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-20 4:22:54 AM|| 2004-09-20 4:22:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The perpetrators of the bomb blast where most probably the Kurdish terorist org. PKK and not some jihadis, but its too early to make assumptions, nobody claimed the bombing yet.

Posted by Murat 2004-09-20 5:52:35 AM|| 2004-09-20 5:52:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 So they'd be freedom fighters like your friends who bomb civilians in Iraq eh, Murat?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-20 6:06:32 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:06:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Having to admit if might be some Kurdish Workers Party Commies is a possibility. But Turkmen see all Kurds as undermenschen so I'll give it a pass and say it's fundimentalist muslims.

I am still putting it down as Jihadi mad that some Turkish women and girls: (a) Might be having a good time with out permission of every last one of their male relatives down ot the 5th cousin. An be "unaccompanied" by a male relation. (b) Were not wearing an all encompassing veil. (c) Generally acting like free humans and not slave property.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-20 6:09:05 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:09:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Nope Bulldog, freedom fighter you have in countries that are occupied

Posted by Murat 2004-09-20 6:18:17 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:18:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 OK, so if it turns out to be jihadis you'll blame this on the jooooos/zionists anyway. People enjoying themselves, music, dancing? Looks like Islamofascists to me. We shall see... Hey, I thought those guys murdering the Turkish trucker the other week looked suspiciously like joooos too. Mmmm...

Posted by Howard UK 2004-09-20 6:27:33 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:27:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Nope Bulldog, freedom fighter you have in countries that are occupied

The PKK believe Turkey is occupying Kurdish lands as the Iraqi 'rebels' believe the US is occupying Iraq. You can't criticise the tactics of the one and at the same time complain about the tactics of the other. You never did admit what the Turkish for hypocrite is, did you?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-20 6:34:38 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:34:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 ..."criticise"? I meant "condone".

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-20 6:35:28 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:35:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 IkiyÃ¼zlÃ¼. Right? Murat: you're a ikiyÃ¼zlÃ¼. Hardly rolls off the tongue, but if the name fits...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-20 6:40:18 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:40:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 You're now trying excuses Bulldog, Iraq is a sovereign state that is occupied (according to the UN illegaly) there is no such sovereign state called Kurdistan nor did it exist ever, so your analogy is a bid screwed.

Posted by Murat 2004-09-20 6:55:26 AM|| 2004-09-20 6:55:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 There was no Islamic fundamentalist state in Iraq pre-war, either. Or a Shiite dictatorship. So the insurgents who kill Iraqi women and children, policemen and foreign workers are not fighting to re-establish a former status quo, either. They're just slaughtering in attempts to grab power for themselves. Just as are the PKK. The analogy is perfectly apt. You relish politically motivated murders in Iraq, so don't start to complain when Turks are killed for political motivces in Turkey. You can expect much sympathy from us when your relatives are torn apart by PKK explosives as you offered to Iraqis whose relatives were torn apart by Islamofascist explosives in Iraq, ikiyÃ¼zlÃ¼.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-20 7:11:42 AM|| 2004-09-20 7:11:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 mmmm. Pork rinds. glglglglgl!

Posted by BH 2004-09-20 11:27:46 AM|| 2004-09-20 11:27:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 If we wanna bit more accurate on a theological/legalistic/philosophical/moralistic level about wider issues of territory control and wars of liberation:

There's the point that Turkey claims that those territories of Kurdistan within its border are part of their own country (like Basque country is part of Spain, and Chechenya part of Russia) even if people of different ethnic background exist in them --- and as fully integrated in their own country, Turkey offers citizenship to those people it calls "Mountain Turks" (the rest of the world calls them "Kurds" instead ofcourse :).

On the other US forces occupy territory that they *don't* claim to be their own, and they are *not* extending American citizenship to all Iraqi citizens. That point goes to Turkey's favour.

The analogy breaks down further however to the benefit of the *other* side: For example Turkey's occupation of the Kurdish territories is indefinite, while America is being there on a supposedly temporary basis, and an elected Iraqi government will (theoretically atleast) be able to ask them to leave. That point goes in America's favour therefore, as America can be seen to be *restoring* 'sovereignty' to the Iraqi nation, instead of abolishing it.

But on the whole that point depends heavily on where each person thinks national sovereignty derives from: The nationalistic view of sovereignty cares primarily about whether it's national or non-national forces that interfere with the progress. Murat, being a nationalist, sees therefore the American invasion as violating Iraqi sovereignty.

Me, being a democrat, believe that there never existed any sovereignty there to violate. Governments can derive their authority only from the free consent of the governed: So I totally reject the idea of sovereignty in tyrannical states. Indeed in this case it's the so-called "Iraqi resistance" that tries to cause Iraqi sovereignty to die before it was born, as their victory would mean the defeat of democracy and thus the chance of any morally legitimate authority in Iraq.

Cheers.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-20 12:20:55 PM|| 2004-09-20 12:20:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#15
Me, being a democrat, believe that there never existed any sovereignty there to violate. Governments can derive their authority only from the free consent of the governed: So I totally reject the idea of sovereignty in tyrannical states.

Something we agree on, Aris. I'm surprised.

As for the original story, here's the part that leaps out at me:

planted inside a police car

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-09-20 12:38:27 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-09-20 12:38:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Governments can derive their authority only from the free consent of the governed: So I totally reject the idea of sovereignty in tyrannical states.

Another non-fan of the Treaty of Westphalia! I agree completely, and have no trouble whatsoever in having a coalition of willing democratic states work to remove thugs wherever they are. That is and has been the strongest point (for me) in removing Saddam.

Posted by Steve White 2004-09-20 12:41:53 PM|| 2004-09-20 12:41:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Steve, I was thinking Thomas Jefferson actually. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-20 1:11:46 PM|| 2004-09-20 1:11:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Ah, you said *non*-fan. I agree then.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-09-20 1:14:15 PM|| 2004-09-20 1:14:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Color me surprised for agreeing with Aris also.

Posted by Ptah 2004-09-20 3:09:16 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-09-20 3:09:16 PM|| Front Page Top

13:48 Fred
13:46 Fred
12:14 Anonymous6563
12:14 Anonymous6563
02:55 Anonymous6560
02:55 Anonymous6560
01:22 Anonymous6558
01:22 Anonymous6558
00:38 Anonymous6556
00:38 Anonymous6556
19:23 Today
01:49 Anonymous6590
15:45 Aris Katsaris
15:39 Aris Katsaris
10:10 Sock Puppet of Doom
09:53 Bulldog
09:20 RN
08:57 TS(vice girl)
08:54 Aris Katsaris
08:20 2B
06:13 Sock Puppet of Doom
06:04 Howard UK
05:10 Bulldog
03:38 Super Hose