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2006-10-20 Iraq
U.S. to seek new approach to Iraqi violence
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Posted by Fred 2006-10-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Can we kill and win now?
Posted by Captain America 2006-10-20 00:52||   2006-10-20 00:52|| Front Page Top

#2 To end Iraqi violence, you'd have to begin by removing the Iraqi "government". Then you'd need to dismantle the Iraqi Arab tribal social traditions. Then you'd need to remove Islam - no more Sunnis, no more Shia, no more sectarian hatred, no more external Iranian Shia subversion, no more Sunnis streaming in from everywhere else.

You'd have to remove the flypaper.

To achieve these noble ends you'd have to kill all of the Iraqi Arabs.
Posted by .com 2006-10-20 01:21||   2006-10-20 01:21|| Front Page Top

#3 So...pull out and watch the sparks fly.
Posted by facta non verba 2006-10-20 01:28||   2006-10-20 01:28|| Front Page Top

#4 The only way to do this and avoid the heavy body counts involved with .com's admittedly effective solution is to deport all the Sunnis to Saudi Arabia and all of the Shiias to Iran and let the Kurds take over the entire nation.

The MME (Muslim Middle East) is congenitally disposed to endless cycles of bloodshed and revenge. Short of killing all individuals above the age of eight years-old and raising the orphaned children in a foster environment devoid of hate programming, there is little if any hope of ever resolving this crap.

This must be one of the most vital lessons we carry forward from occupying Iraq. Muslims absolutely love to kill each other and once their internal conflicts are ended, we in the West will be the next recipients of their withering embrace.

There is no feasible prospect of peaceable coexistence, religious harmony or even isolationist stand-offs. There will be constant and escalating violence until either the West perishes or Islam is exterminated.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 01:46||   2006-10-20 01:46|| Front Page Top

#5 does that mean blanket bombing can start.
I love a good daisy cutter
Posted by Alex 2006-10-20 01:59||   2006-10-20 01:59|| Front Page Top

#6 There will be a federal Iraq with ethnically homgenous (moreorless) Kurd, Shia and Sunni areas. The main problem is that all three areas will meet at Baghdad. Long term Baghdad will cease to exist as the capital city and as a city of 5 million. Unfortunately, the route from here to there will be bloody, but I see no reason to delay it, which the American actions, despite good intentions, are doing.
Posted by phil_b 2006-10-20 02:17||   2006-10-20 02:17|| Front Page Top

#7 By recognizing and cooperating with the Iraqi "govenment", a Qom Shia LLC incorporated in Nevada, I believe...
Posted by .com 2006-10-20 02:24||   2006-10-20 02:24|| Front Page Top

#8 Re: staying the course

On September 9th, R-burg published this article about British research in optical invisibility.

The October issue of Popular Science also had an excellent article on this subject.
It happens that I have some small knowledge of US efforts in this field. Much of the research in this area has been highly classified, but the recent de-classification and publication of some basic material allows public discussion within certain limits.

(See the article "Secret Warplanes of Area 51" in the same issue of Pop-Sci. It is no coincidence that these articles appear next to each other.)

It seems likely, on the evidence, that US efforts in this area have advanced far beyond the level achieved in the British experiments.
I can't promise anything, since I don't know the details and wouldn't discuss them if I did, but I would not be surprised to see some sensational developments unfold in the very near future.

This technology could play the same role in the current war that the atomic bomb did during World War 2.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2006-10-20 02:35||   2006-10-20 02:35|| Front Page Top

#9 While cost-effective metamaterials are still many years away, there are other advanced technologies that hold great promise. OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diode) displays may provide solutions for some of these "optical invisibility" techniques. This new method of fabricating imaging devices promises flexible paper-thin video screens and even the possibility of light emitting fabrics that can display color images. Imagine a small multi-axis helmet-mounted camera that instructs your body armor to display the view fore or aft of you, plus laterally as well. It would also function as a "chameleon" suit in complex backgrounds. An enemy looking at you face-on would see whatever image there was behind you and so forth.

Metamaterials will be a much-needed component of advance battlefield technology, finding applications in all sorts of odd niches. Still, there are many other more convenmtional approaches that are available in the here-and-now.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 03:23||   2006-10-20 03:23|| Front Page Top

#10 Then you'd need to dismantle the Iraqi Arab tribal social traditions.

This is the biggest hurdle. Tribalism is something our mil has so far advanced past as being "...before us" we didn't need to worry about tribalism with our former enemies.

MO and the Arabs have brought us back in a time warp. I think tribalism is our biggest problem going forward, it is foreign to our mil , no borders, hidden loyalty...it's tribalism folks
Posted by Dunno 2006-10-20 04:46||   2006-10-20 04:46|| Front Page Top

#11 I go with the RB commentator who advised carpet bombing both sides with kazoos and hardcore porn.
Posted by Howard UK 2006-10-20 04:50||   2006-10-20 04:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Prbably mojo.
Posted by Howard UK 2006-10-20 04:57||   2006-10-20 04:57|| Front Page Top

#13 Move the U. S. elections to next Tuesday.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-20 06:36||   2006-10-20 06:36|| Front Page Top

#14 The right answer is the one we gave in Fallujah.

City by city. Cordon and clear. And dont let them back in until after its clear - and leave the cordon in place.

Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-20 09:52||   2006-10-20 09:52|| Front Page Top

#15 It's too late.

The time for effective action was in the last 3 years and has been wasted. Several cities should have been razed. Many Iraqi "leaders" should have been killed. And Iran should have been bombed back to the Stone age.

What we've done is try to set up a democratic form of government in Iraq, allowed State sponsors of terrorism to continue to cause massive death and injury across that country, and hoped -- HOPED -- that somehow -- SOMEHOW -- things would settle into paradise on earth as it sort of did in post-WW II Japan and Germany.

Instead, we have a failed experiment in freedom. And the sad consequence of that failure, caused by Islamofascists egged on by the Western leftists, will be an all-out WMD war with tens if not hundreds of millions of death.

The failure in Vietnam led to millions of death in Indochina. The failure in Iraq will be much worse.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-10-20 10:22||   2006-10-20 10:22|| Front Page Top

#16 If it happens, I agree Kalle.

But I do think we had to try. For our sake, as much as for theirs.
Posted by lotp 2006-10-20 10:27||   2006-10-20 10:27|| Front Page Top

#17 Yes, it had to be tried, but the military should not have been leashed. Destruction and death is what is required to humiliate our enemy, the Islamofascists. Massive destruction. On a scale that would impress in their feeble minds that their false god is not granting them victory over the West.

After identifying Iran and Syria as State sponsors of terrorism, it is unforgivable that these two countries are still functional States with standing armies, intelligence services, and WMD programs.

We will come to regret it. I have lost all positive expectations for Iraq. The only path left is to switch our attention to Iraq's neighbours and break them, without hoping for freedom to take hold in Islamic countries for the next several generations. Enlightenment values have never taken root in Moslem societies.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-10-20 10:40||   2006-10-20 10:40|| Front Page Top

#18 excluded middle folks?

Either democracy works there, NOW, or the only alternative is either A. Leaving or B. Going genocidal, or near genocidal? (in which case IMHO we ought to leave, as theres nothing to gain in Iraq thats worth the costs of that. If were gonna "go mongol" the place to do it is NW Pakistan, where at least we've got a rationale, not Iraq.

We COULD push for a coup, to put in Allawi. His own supprt is small, but the Kurds will support him if we push, and many of the Sunni pols would, esp if we work things out with Jordan and KSA first. Some of the religious Shia will join in for self-preservation. Then you hold a new election, but this time you clamp down on any Shia that are even halfway tolerant of Sadr. Meanwhile you declare Sadr public enemy #1. You hit him, (and any Iraqi police who support him)with all the coalition force, and any loyal Iraqi army units, youve got. Local Sunni regimes will support this. You can probably get the Euros to at least not object (much easier than with a kill em all strategy). The Iranians will scream, but what exactly are they gonna do that isnt suicidal for their regime?
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-10-20 11:14||   2006-10-20 11:14|| Front Page Top

#19 Give 'em short skirts, Johnny Walker and Corvettes. They'll come around.
Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2006-10-20 11:51||   2006-10-20 11:51|| Front Page Top

#20 The most important thing we could do is what EU suggests. Make oil royalty payments directly to each individual adult Iraqi, male and female. The CPA should have done this ASAP. It should still be done regardless of the objections of the Iraqi elders and elites.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-20 12:03||   2006-10-20 12:03|| Front Page Top

#21 #17, Kalle,
Exactly. I've been saying the same here for a while. I didn't express it as well as you have. You've nailed it. We lost an opportunity. What lies ahead in terms of D&D (death & destruction) will be much, much worse.
Posted by SpecOp35 2006-10-20 12:28||   2006-10-20 12:28|| Front Page Top

#22 "things would settle into paradise on earth as it sort of did in post-WW II Japan and Germany."

The problem is we didnt have them prostrate and begging, their culture completely discredited, like we did with Germany and Japan.
Posted by Oldspook 2006-10-20 12:43||   2006-10-20 12:43|| Front Page Top

#23 We will come to regret it. I have lost all positive expectations for Iraq. The only path left is to switch our attention to Iraq's neighbours and break them, without hoping for freedom to take hold in Islamic countries for the next several generations.

I can only echo your well expressed sentiments, Kalle.

We must begin breaking the spines of Islamic theocracy and dictatorship all through the MME (Muslim Middle East). After the ingratitude of Iraq, we must feel no obligation to rebuild anything. It will probably be a better lesson that any survivors twist gently in the breeze wafting from their smoking ruins. First Iran and Syria, then Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Cutting these four principals out of the terrorist loop would set back their operations by a solid decade.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2006-10-20 12:59||   2006-10-20 12:59|| Front Page Top

#24 Lots of good comments/points by all.

I'd of been more heartened if our leaders really studied tribal culture especially the bedouin foundations augmented by islam to really understand our current enemies & thus break them. Our responses over the past three years would have been like many suggested on here to some degree. To the western lay person these responses prolly would have seemed barbaric but the middle easterner would have totally understood them (and grudgingly respected us) as showing strength from their stone age perspective.

Hind sight being 20/20, we should have treated them as close to what we did to the Germans/Japanese after WW2. Make them swear allegiance to us until we say different. Of course, back then there was no 24/7 msm spin cycle highlighting every death and hiccup over & over again. I'd have blacked out the media much like GW1 to include Al Jizz. Those tribes that refused to play ball would be liquidated post haste, w/as much brutality that could be mustered. The Arabs understand that message. They respect the alpha male mentality. I hate to say it, but I get a sense that a lot of our leaders really do not "know" our enemy - only in a sort of pc sense of the word - and therefore some of our tactics have not been as effective as they could be.
Posted by Broadhead6 2006-10-20 13:36||   2006-10-20 13:36|| Front Page Top

#25  I think the U.S. has been planning this revision in stategy for quit some time now.
My brother is in the Naval reserves doing Intel. He found out last week that he will be reporting for active duty late this month and begin training in early November. He will be deployed to Bagdad sometime in mid December. I expect to see the chahge in stategy well on its way by then.
Not that I think this new stategy will be right either.
Posted by Mike N. 2006-10-20 13:54||   2006-10-20 13:54|| Front Page Top

#26 we should have treated them as close to what we did to the Germans/Japanese after WW2.

The key was not the way we treated them after WW2, but during WW2. If we had kille 7.5% of the Iraqis, or better yet, the ME, we would have gotten a much different level of ccoperation. The problem is the home front wouldn't have tolerated that. Until we hake them howl, they'll keep playing their cutsie games with us and we shouldn't kid ourselves about it.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-20 14:03||   2006-10-20 14:03|| Front Page Top

#27 The problem is the home front wouldn't have tolerated that.

Bingo NS. As much as we on RB would like to see the gloves come off, that is not politically tenable at this time and won't be until many more American civilians are dead. Then the attitude will change 180 degrees overnight. Until then it won't be permitted in Iraq, the Paki provinces or anywhere else.

Iraq is a warm up exercise, live fire training if you will. The big fight is going to come later.
Posted by remoteman 2006-10-20 15:08||   2006-10-20 15:08|| Front Page Top

#28 I agree with a lot of what's been said here (I seem to remember saying much the same thing myself once or six times). The problem has metestasized (sp?) into a problem where we have to deal with ALL Arabs, and equally. Break the backs of every Arab nation simultaneously (or some semblence of the same), and add the Persians and Pakistanis to the list for good measure. STOMP them so hard they don't even want to THINK about going to war against us. Use every weapon we can think of, short of nukes. Totally annhialate both the Saudi and the Jordanian royal families, destroy the political mullahs in every ME country, and rain devastation on their nations in spades. CRUSH them, and screw "civilian" casualties - there is no such thing.

When our MSM and leftist whiners raise their voice, give them a choice: either they learn to understand the truth about our enemies, and STFU, or they're ventilated by a 7.62 round through the frontal lobes. They have no understanding of the war that's being fought, and they aid and abet our enemies to destroy us. Their lives are forfeit. It's going to be really, REALLY nasty, but the other option is the death and destruction of Western Civilization. I will NOT surrender to the crazed mobs either on the left or in the Middle East.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2006-10-20 18:05|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2006-10-20 18:05|| Front Page Top

#29 Thank you all for your punditry, but Oldspook and I have the correct answers. I'll embellish:

(1) Name Iraq the 51st state of the United States,
(2) Give the crips and the bloods 72-hours to get,
(3) Cordon off and cleanse, and
(4) Turn the maintenance and weeding to the Iraqi generals.

Next stop, Iran
Posted by Captain America 2006-10-20 18:48||   2006-10-20 18:48|| Front Page Top

#30 The American people are unaccepting of the PC bullshit we have been doing in Iraq for the past four years (sans Falluja).

The Iraqi people (en masse) want security and an eventual end of the violence. What we have been doing the past four years has done little to give them either.

The only winners in this game thus far are limp dick jihadis and militas.

Americans are winners, we don't like war where we wear gunny sacks.
Posted by Captain America 2006-10-20 18:53||   2006-10-20 18:53|| Front Page Top

#31 One good thing about Iraq is that our troops are raising their level of efficacy and developing new strategies+tactics+logistics that will be invaluable in the coming campaigns.

But the political will is missing. As is the understanding of who our enemy is.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-10-20 22:14||   2006-10-20 22:14|| Front Page Top

#32 The only winners in this game thus far are limp dick jihadis and militas. Americans are winners, we don't like war where we wear gunny sacks.

All real Americans love the sting of battle. American play to win, all the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost, and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost, and will never lose a war; because the very thought of losing is hateful, to Americans.
Posted by Gen. G. S. Patton (Ret) 2006-10-20 22:15||   2006-10-20 22:15|| Front Page Top

#33 BTW... it recently came out of Soviet archives that the "accident" that killed Patton --- Wasn't an accident...

It was a Stalin ordered hit.

Posted by 3dc 2006-10-20 23:13||   2006-10-20 23:13|| Front Page Top

13:56 Anonymoose
23:56 Zenster
23:53 Zenster
23:53 Old Patriot
23:52 3dc
23:46 3dc
23:30 JosephMendiola
23:26 twobyfour
23:20 JosephMendiola
23:18 NoBeards
23:13 3dc
23:10 mrp
23:08 RD
23:05 Chinter Flarong
23:04 3dc
22:59 RD
22:50 gorb
22:47 RD
22:44 Old Patriot
22:30 Old Patriot
22:29 Asymmetrical Triangulation
22:26 Kalle (kafir forever)
22:22 3dc
22:20 Gen. G. S. Patton (Ret)









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