Article

2005-11-02 Afghanistan-Pak-India

Senior al-Qaeda leader escaped from Bagram

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Posted by Dan Darling 2005-11-02 00:16|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 They RFIDs this guy before letting him escape? Right?

Posted by 3dc 2005-11-02 00:51|| 2005-11-02 00:51|| Front Page Top

#2 Dismiss charges against Driver. We've been here many times - and I've kept out of it - for personal reasons... But I swear the standards that our people are held to - when the opposition is free, and obviously willing, to do any insane shit that pops into his MuzzyNutz vacuum chamber - infuriates me beyond words. This uneven set of rules gets our people killed, has us detaining people who have no intel value and shouldn't be breathing our air, and using detainment / restraint that's "humane" - allowing some to escape. If unencumbered by such dainty niceties and well-meaning, but wrong-headed rules, this asshat would've sung his heart out - and then disappeared. And yeah, I know the arguments - I served and had the punchlines drilled into me - most of which are, at best, irrelevant against this enemy. Got himself on the cover of Time, huh? This is fucking insane. Should've shot the photographer. Too. My take.

Posted by .com 2005-11-02 01:08|| 2005-11-02 01:08|| Front Page Top

#3 Let's see how the rules stack up.
Theirs:
"Abu Yusuf (from the Hanafi school of jurisprudence, d. 798):
â..that one can even ..finish off the wounded, or kill prisoners who might prove dangerous to the Muslims.. As for the prisoners who are lead before the imam, the latter has the choice, as he pleases, of executing them, or making them pay a ransom, for the most advantageous choice for the Muslims, and the wisest for Islam. The ransom imposed upon them is not to consist either of gold, silver, or wares, but is only in exchange for Muslim captives..â

Ours:
Kiss their arses, wipe their runny noses and whatever we do, don't offend their honour.

We're f*cked unless we wake up.

Posted by tipper 2005-11-02 01:59|| 2005-11-02 01:59|| Front Page Top

#4 Unless it's some big fish like OBL, maybe the capture of these Al-Q fucks should remain unannounced, unadvertised. That way if one these fucks is "mistreated", nobody knows about it.

Posted by Rafael 2005-11-02 02:02|| 2005-11-02 02:02|| Front Page Top

#5 A man once considered a top al-Qaida operative escaped from a U.S.-run detention facility in Afghanistan and cannot testify against the soldier who allegedly mistreated him, a defense lawyer involved in a prison abuse case said Tuesday.

Capt. John B. Parker, a prosecutor, said al-Farouq and three others escaped from the Bagram detention center and have not been found.

I'd find a way, wouldn't you for your team? If non of them ever turn up, good!

Posted by Red Dog 2005-11-02 02:58|| 2005-11-02 02:58|| Front Page Top

#6 rkb, who is involved in training our officer corps, has commented several times that the strict rules of behaviour are as much to protect the souls of our guys as to shut up the hysterical finger pointers in the media and the marchers. I personally wouldn't mind if the captives, especially at Gitmo, were kept in plexiglass isolation booths, fed MREs and water, and were treated to an ongoing good cop/bad cop routine with the guards playing bad cop. Perhaps with Baroque string quartets piped throughout the compound to induce a calmer, more logical mental state.

But then, I'm eminently unqualified to make such decisions, and must rely on results to judge current efforts. The only thing I know is that there is a steady flow of information on terrorist leadership, plans, connections and weapons stashes coming from somewhere. How much is from Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and its ilk, I shouldn't venture to guess.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-02 05:23|| 2005-11-02 05:23|| Front Page Top

#7 TW: But then, I'm eminently unqualified to make such decisions..

/that's way better.

Posted by Red Dog 2005-11-02 05:43|| 2005-11-02 05:43|| Front Page Top

#8 "to protect the souls of our guys"

There sure is a lot to this issue. Some obvious, some not.

Physically speaking, it is true that obeying the rules of war is beneficial when fighting against another state that also adheres to the rules.

But I presume from the wording you are alluding to the mental state. I suggest that this sounds very good. I know it is the standard line in the rear - say at the Pentagon. They have armies (lol) of people there who will never hear a shot fired in anger who believe this is the manner in which we should conduct ourselves. Fine - for them. A field day for the JAGs. Hell, it may even help some people sleep at night.

The media should not be out in the field - especially in the sort of ops run in Afghanistan, and I wouldn't let them go on patrols in Iraq, either, unless they know their shit cold, like Michael Yon. They're amateurs, at best, and endanger our people for nothing, no good reason. So the finger-pointing shouldn't be happening -- period. Just more idiot policy from the rear.

But in the field, when your friends are dying precisely because the enemy does not follow the Western notion of the rules of war, you learn rather quickly that 1) they can get you killed and 2) until you kill the enemy, rule #1 is in effect.

Now let's conduct a little thought experiment. What would you suggest to your son or daughter who was shipping out to a WoT hotspot?

a) Play "fair", follow the rules, save your soul.

b) Kill the bastards in any way you can, never take anything for granted (such as the other guy playing "fair"), and get your ass home alive and in one piece, if possible.

The fascinating thing in the long debates I've read on RB and elsewhere is the absolute dearth of input from people who've been there. Have you noticed? For example, how many Vietnam vets have chimed in on the topic with real-world examples? How about Desert Storm? Afghanistan? Iraq?

Other than the bogus twerp who came bopping into the RB vil not long ago spouting some bogus shit about losing 10 Ranger buddies, the answer is none. We get the morons, the "impalers", but you don't see obviously straight poop from the line.

Why do you think that's the case? Think about it - it's telling as hell. We've got bona-fide combat vets here. I won't name any names, but it's usually possible to pick them out over time by tone and word choice. I'll wager that not one in 50 would answer you under their regular nym if you asked for feedback. Again, ask yourself why.

Now, regards fighting by the rules of war, where, pray-tell, does the enemy reciprocate? Is that the case fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? How about Zarqi's jihadis? Mebbe the JI in Indo? How about southern Thailand?

In the Wot, where, exactly, are the rules adhered to by both sides?

I've said many times that we will have to get much "dirtier" if we are to win. That's the war we face - they're setting the "rules": there are no rules. Whether we like it or not and whether it fits some preconceived notion dreamed up in the safety of some office doesn't mean diddley-squat when the IED goes off and the shaped charge provided by Iran penetrates the armor and sends a jet of molten metal and a fireball into your vehicle -- or the children are pouring gasoline on you, lying wounded in the road surrounded by dancing "moderate" Muzzies.

Just my take. Figured it was time to say something, that's all. And no, I'm not interested in any debate, and won't take anyone's bait, I'm just pointing out the cold hard differences between the real world and the mental exercises that the Pentagon types impose upon good people, brave people, out in the boonies - where they fear to tread.

Your soul is a topic for debate. Your ass, on the other hand, is as real as it gets.

Hey, it's a bitch, but there it is, IMHO. Thanks for playing.

Posted by .com 2005-11-02 06:14|| 2005-11-02 06:14|| Front Page Top

#9 One correction: OS has posted a little bit on actual action. And I was very happy he felt he could. I miss his posts.

Posted by .com 2005-11-02 06:18|| 2005-11-02 06:18|| Front Page Top

#10 Me too,Dot.The guy is a well spring of knowledge and wisdom.

Posted by raptor 2005-11-02 06:53|| 2005-11-02 06:53|| Front Page Top

#11 I recemmond good ole prosecuter CPT Johnny B. Parker get off his arss, ruck up, take his 9mm and head to the mountains and find Omar. He can take along all of his other leftest lawyer (commie pukes in uniform) friends as well. At a minimum, we need to STOP publisizing this crap. Give 'Army' lawyers additional CV bullets/convictions for thier post-Army careers isn't helping anyone.

Posted by Besoeker 2005-11-02 08:06|| 2005-11-02 08:06|| Front Page Top

#12 All interrogations should be conducted on the battlefield. No prisoners should be taken. Release or execute on the spot.

Posted by Whomong Glotch8296 2005-11-02 08:16|| 2005-11-02 08:16|| Front Page Top

#13 You guys are dead right. We're dealing with certifiable lunatics in this war. Those of us who think clearly, would never penalize a soldier for losing his cool when faced by a brainless lunatic.
When you read one day how one of them ran a car over an 8 year old who stole bread, and the next day another one of them kisses a wall with his nose by your hand, who can judge you wrong ?
One of the great assumptions we have which leads to these problems is that only a judge can judge and only a prosecutor can prosecute. If you have a loaded gun at someone's head, you are a judge.
If you kill them, the resulting debate should be not that you are guilty, but whether you acted correctly. Think about it. It's logical; more logical than the need to affix blame and guilt.
Vote for me, damnit, I'll straighten this mess out.

Posted by wxjames 2005-11-02 09:05|| 2005-11-02 09:05|| Front Page Top

#14 Doors open, go ahead. That's right, you're free, and we can assure you you will never get caught and be brought back here again. Go on now, go. Make my day.

I like the message this sends to other prisoners who want to hire lawyers and play this game.

when you have a group that has lying about mistreatment in their playbook, a MSM willing to run with the propaganda, and a hysterical leftie rent a mob ready and waiting for something/anything to wail about, then don't be surprised when good people decide to add a little old western style justice to the process.

I don't like it, but what do you expect?

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 09:23|| 2005-11-02 09:23|| Front Page Top

#15 I remember my dad telling me of his experiences in the Pacific with the Japanese forces. A wounded Japanese, or one playing dead, would try to take out Marines with a grenade who were trying to check them out or give first aid. After losses of good Marine bodies and souls, the Marines started popping the Japanese bodies with additional rounds just to be sure. Enemy forces would get massive barrages into pillboxes, no questions asked, or have a heavy dose of napalm so they would fry. The Marines would hear the screams and smell the awful smell of burning flesh of the Japanese. Brutal, but that had to be done against an enemy that would not surrender in significant numbers.

War is a dirty, nasty business, and the more brutally, rapidly, and efficiently we annihilate the enemy, the sooner his spirit is broken and the more people eventually survive. It is him or it is us. I pick door #1 for our sakes.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2005-11-02 10:21|| 2005-11-02 10:21|| Front Page Top

#16 When you read one day how one of them ran a car over an 8 year old who stole bread,

Go read the comments thread by that photo - it almost certainly was NOT a punishment, but rather a moneymaking performance.

You're a combat vet, .com? Where'd you serve?

Posted by lotp 2005-11-02 10:33|| 2005-11-02 10:33|| Front Page Top

#17 Go read the comments thread by that photo - it almost certainly was NOT a punishment, but rather a moneymaking performance.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-11-02 10:45|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-11-02 10:45|| Front Page Top

#18 Anyone understand Arabic?
This an earlier post of the same pictures.
Hopefully it will clear up the accusations once and for all.
http://tinyurl.com/8jcwa

Posted by tipper 2005-11-02 10:58|| 2005-11-02 10:58|| Front Page Top

#19 Until you know what the photos of that boy show it's a stretch to assume the worst - much as you would like to.

I'm not exactly happy about the incident portrayed, no matter what the actual events. But even the blog cited in the other RB story today admits they don't know what's going on in the photos.

Sharia calls for amputation, not crushing of a limb, and the Iranians like the Saudis have never been loathe to do just that in public. Moreover, as commenters at various sites point out, the boy is still able to maintain a fist after the tire 'pressure', which strongly suggests his arm was not crushed.

(I've seen seriously damaged limbs and this boy doesn't look like that in the last photo.)

So the "pull the other one" snark is ..... not well founded as far as English readers can tell unless they do read Farsi (NOT Arabic - I believe the link goes to Iranian discussion).

Posted by lotp 2005-11-02 11:16|| 2005-11-02 11:16|| Front Page Top

#20 Until you know what the photos of that boy show it's a stretch to assume the worst - much as you would like to.

It's not about "want", it's about having enough knowledge to know it's not out of line with Iran's practice of "justice".

You've got one guy saying "don't say bad things about us" against a history of beheadings, hangings, whippings, etc. You want to believe him, knock yourself out.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-11-02 11:25|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-11-02 11:25|| Front Page Top

#21 I stand corrected.

Still an indictment of a sick society, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-11-02 11:38|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-11-02 11:38|| Front Page Top

#22 I don't stand corrected.

And if you think this comment somehow makes it ok, you're a real piece of work. Sharia calls for amputation, not crushing of a limb, and the Iranians like the Saudis have never been loathe to do just that in public.

What is wrong with you. The pictures aren't photoshopped. It doesn't matter if it's done to make money or to punish him. It's still sick...like you, you piece of human scum.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 11:46|| 2005-11-02 11:46|| Front Page Top

#23 the only thing beneath a parent or bystanders who would allow this to happen for any reason, are people like ltop who defend it. You are so beneath contempt.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 11:53|| 2005-11-02 11:53|| Front Page Top

#24 But then, I'm eminently unqualified to make such decisions Shoot, the closest I've come to violence is seeing ninth grade boys shove each other into lockers. I've never seen grown men fight -- I've never even seen girls fight, let alone anything resembling what .com describes.

But I would appreciate seeing more comments in these discussions from those of you who have fought. Make use of Fred's random name generator if you don't want to post under your regular name -- it can only enrich the discussions, and help me, at least, to have more realistic thoughts to lay before y'all.

And .com, thank you for the cold wind of experience. Of course I would prefer the trailing daughters to first win the war. Losing nicely would ensure I never have little Jewish grandchildren playing at my feet while I pour the tea. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-02 12:02|| 2005-11-02 12:02|| Front Page Top

#25 I'm with ltop. I'm so relieved to know that if a little 8 year old had stolen a loaf of bread, that he would have had his arm chopped off, rather than just having his arm run over with a soft cloth under his arm, no less.

Good show, where do I send my contribution so I can see more just like it?

Posted by loser boy 2005-11-02 12:16|| 2005-11-02 12:16|| Front Page Top

#26 Sigh.

Has it occurred to any of you that the "run over" part is .... augmented .... i.e. that the full weight of the vehicle might not be on the boy's arm?

Look, I don't know if it was or not. But it seems to me the blogosphere is getting its panties in a wad a little prematurely on those photos.

There's plenty of real outrage that the MMs deserve ... just go back to the young girl executed for the crime of getting pregnant when raped by her brother a while ago, for instance. Don't dilute that sort of known barbarity by hyping suspect photos and incidents.

And while I'm swimming against the emotional tide here, I'll just say that wrt the rules of engagement given to our troops, I'll take the judgement of the combat veteran officers I know over anonymous commenters here who don't have to lead troops or live with the consequences of certain actions in the field *on our own trooops*.

Yes, I know what was done in some cases in the past. Got a highly decorated WWII soldier close to me who has to live with his memories - and his physical pain - daily. I can't print what his response is to the sort of no-rules approach advocated here as regular policy. Suffice it to say that in the 50+ years I've known him I've never once heard him agree with y'all.

Posted by lotp 2005-11-02 13:04|| 2005-11-02 13:04|| Front Page Top

#27 Just a question for everyone. Any difference between doing anything and everything to kill the enemy before he can kill you, and killing, maiming, doing whatever to someone after they have surrendered and been disarmed. Seems you have two different things here. If there's no difference, why do we not allow similar actions on the part of our police. Take all the drug dealers out behind the station and shoot them. Might not be a bad idea, but just where do you draw the line. Beat up the users so they'll tell you where the the dealers live? I don't know. But is there actually a line anywhere?

Posted by Grase Snavick3339 2005-11-02 13:24|| 2005-11-02 13:24|| Front Page Top

#28 TW: But then, I'm eminently unqualified to make such decisions..

'just saying..after you did so well handling Vladsy poo yesterday.

TW: But then, I'm eminently supersized unqualified to make such decisions.. *>see that's not better.

pour a cup for me too. ;)

Posted by Red Dog 2005-11-02 16:25|| 2005-11-02 16:25|| Front Page Top

#29 Has it occurred to any of you that the "run over" part is .... augmented .... i.e. that the full weight of the vehicle might not be on the boy's arm?

Yes, so?

I saw Penn and Teller pull a similar stunt. The difference is that both of them are adults. And that the audience knew there was a trick.

Why don't you try this same stunt on an American street?

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-11-02 18:40|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-11-02 18:40|| Front Page Top

#30 Has it occurred to any of you that the "run over" part is .... augmented .... i.e. that the full weight of the vehicle might not be on the boy's arm?

are you daft or just blind. Go look at photo #3. Maybe the little boy is just a good actor. Ya think? Jeesh. The only outrage I'm feeling is that there are losers like you who defends this as photoshopped, or no big deal, and then upon realizing how undefendable it is, tries to weasle out of it by saying there are bigger sins to be outraged over. Nice try. Loser. I'll never read your posts the same.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 19:14|| 2005-11-02 19:14|| Front Page Top

#31 not you, rc.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 19:17|| 2005-11-02 19:17|| Front Page Top

#32 I believe we should play by the rules. But the reality is the rules need to be re-thought. We can only live with reality. The reality is this war is not like WW2 or any other war we have been in. That said once a person is in our custody they deserve to be treated in a humane way.

A humane way does not mean living better than they ever have in their wasted lives. I means being kept in a climate where they will not die from exposure, starvation, sickness or brutality. Thats it. They are entitled to nothing else.

I do question why we take so many captive. I am for leaving them dead on the field of battle where ever that may be. That might be in an alley in Europe some place as well as on the mountainside in Pakistan, Afghanistan or a empty stretch of Iraqi dirt.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2005-11-02 19:17|| 2005-11-02 19:17|| Front Page Top

#33 well said SPOD, but don't forget the reason that there is a difference in this war is because the media hypes terrorist claims and acts as their propaganda agents. The DNC is happy to sell out their country for cheap political stunts.

Our war fighters (be it the responsibility of the CIA or whom ever it belongs to) do nothing to fight back on this front.

If it wasn't for the media and their useful dhimmis, we could prosecute the Lyndie England types - but not worry about lawsuits over the chicken sauce not being spicy enough.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-02 19:42|| 2005-11-02 19:42|| Front Page Top

#34 Your comment makes a lot of sense, SP.

dot com - Our troops face the whipsaw between home and hell. Saying "pass the fucking mashed potatoes ma" is better than getting greased - you have to learn the hard way how to turn it off. But more important is learning how to turn it on, cuz it's your ass on the line. They live or die based upon their instincts, training, gear, and their peers, god love them --- and then there's the bitch known as sheer dumb luck. Improving their odds by sharpening the instincts and dumping the chattering bullshit makes life and death sense. And damned right it will get much dirtier and vicious before long. The law enforcement mentality is hamstringing and crippling our ability to respond effectively. The military version of that mentality, while better suited for conventional war, though imperfect there as well, is simply deadly in guerilla war. We never did figure that out during Vietnam. For the sake of our troops, let's hope we get it now.

You said your piece, buddy. Thanks for that. Some of us get it cuz the memories suck when you're in off mode. Hang in there and ignore the bait.

Posted by Thinert Unolunter9480 2005-11-02 19:47|| 2005-11-02 19:47|| Front Page Top

#35 Red Dog, darling: lemon, sugar, milk? Stronger stuff to fortify the tea is on the sideboard, if you'd like. Just help yourself.

Seriously though, and much as I really do appreciate the compliment, parlor games I can do, but real shooting war is a different story. I get nauseous when the trailing daughters explain what the moves in their TaeKwanDo forms meant to that invisible opponent, just as I did when Mr. Wife explained (long ago) what I'd just done to him in the beautifully danced two-man Kung Fu form. If necessary I would do what needed to be done, but so far Life has allowed me to stay safe at home, pouring tea for those who're doing the real work. Who can say, "Pass the fucking mashed potatoes," all they need, until they've finished the mental transition to civilian life.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-02 20:43|| 2005-11-02 20:43|| Front Page Top

#36 as usual, I'm with .com, war is nasty. Better to get home alive

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-11-02 21:06|| 2005-11-02 21:06|| Front Page Top

23:53 Ernest Brown
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