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2004-11-28 Home Front: WoT

US Muslims viewed as an asset against future attacks

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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-11-28 3:34:50 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 sounds like someone to be handled very carefully. see if the MPAC deeds follow the ~~new party line~~ words

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-28 12:51:02 PM|| 2004-11-28 12:51:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Do they mean like the State Department Muslims who had a party and celebrated the 9/11 cold blooded murder of about 3000 innocent civilians?

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-11-28 1:26:34 PM|| 2004-11-28 1:26:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Why do I get the feeling this is a pile o' turds in a paper bag, set alight, the wanker's rung the doorbell, and now he wants to be thanked for it?

Mebbe I'm missing come crucial point, but...

Nahhhh, hang on there, Mobubba. I get the feeling some sort of unAmerican quid pro quo is the other shoe... No access, no funds, no special notice, no nothing. You live in America, and your cooperation is your obligation. If you're not part of the problem, it's your safety at stake, too. If you're not worried about that, lol, well then, meet: Mr Patriot Act, Mr Immigration Court, Mr Deportation Order, and Mr Third World...

So. What's it gonna be? "Is you is or is you ain't my baby?"

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 1:53:11 PM|| 2004-11-28 1:53:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Well, righty-ho then, Mr.al-Marayati.We may expect your associates to begin narking out the extremists, the recruiters, the jihadi-oriented amongst the Moslem community? Any day now, I am sure.

Posted by Sgt. Mom 2004-11-28 1:59:44 PM|| [http://www.sgtstryker.com] 2004-11-28 1:59:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Right on .com.

"Asked about his views on suicide bombing and terrorism, he aggressively condemned both. He also defined a moderate Muslim as someone who, among other things, "rejects terrorism as an instrument of change."

I like that, but at this point, I'm not sure if I'd even believe in the veracity even of Moslem public denouncements of Islamic terrorism. In my book, they waited too long. I'm not against "moderate" Moslems, but it makes me nervous that part of the Islamic political package is that it's okay to lie to infidels to accomplish goals of jihad. They should be watched carefully for follow-through--and they should stop griping about their "rights".

And, uh-hem--still waiting for that national Moslem memorial service to honor and apologize for 9/11 . . . . waiting . . . . still waiting . . . . crickets chirping . . . .

Posted by ex-lib 2004-11-28 4:00:26 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:00:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 ..and says Muslim Americans should be nurtured as a key intelligence asset capable of fingering potential terrorists in their midst.

There's quite a difference between being "capable" and actually being willing to do so.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-11-28 4:13:00 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:13:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Islam as a religion is very loosely organized. I have no idea who the Leader of Islam in the United States is, or whether there is one. Who is the leader of Protestantism in the U. S.?

And wouldn't any moderate who tried to asume the mantle become a target for Islamic wackos? That this guy is willing to label himself as such indicates he is an agent or the real deal. We should be able to determine which.

Let's look at what has happened domesticly in the WOT. The few cells in the U. S. have been rolled us, apparently with tips from the loyal Muslim community.

Plenty of Muslims are serving loyally in the military with only one known bad apple, maybe two but the prosecution was botched at best.

We've had no strikes since 9/11 and no van Gogh type violence.

While I wouldn't suggest the FBI stop surveillance of suspecious characters and I wouldn't object to racial profiling, I'd also listen to what this guy has to say very carefully.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 4:15:32 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:15:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Burden's on MPAC to show where their sympathies lie. Extremely difficult to tell who's really a "moderate" muslim, and we've been burned again and again by faux moderates. Deliver the goods on some jihadists in your midst, and then we'll talk.

Posted by lex 2004-11-28 4:17:29 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:17:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Except for the fact that being an informer is exactly the sort of position a good agent would try for. He gets to finger his enemies, and gets paid for it to boot.

Posted by mojo 2004-11-28 4:19:16 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:19:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Hug them close. Very close.

Posted by lex 2004-11-28 4:20:57 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:20:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I'm waiting for Matt Parker and Trey Stone to speak to this issue.
;-)

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 4:22:02 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:22:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 If MPAC has declared a change and has been open and vocal, I think we should give them a chance. If they follow-through, then I'd say "Welcome". If not, mark them as a potential enemy.

Posted by Brett_the_Quarkian 2004-11-28 4:53:14 PM|| 2004-11-28 4:53:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 In Czech, there are two terms for a loose woman. One -- bĕhna, a radical -- goes through amants like through panties. The other -- moderate coura -- takes it slowly.

Posted by CornÃ®liÃ«s 2004-11-28 5:04:27 PM|| 2004-11-28 5:04:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Interesting - we have similar terms : "Kobe Accuser" goes through men frequently - panties...less so

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-28 5:12:06 PM|| 2004-11-28 5:12:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Public denouncements of terrorism are all fine and dandy. However, actions speak louder than words. What really counts are the goings-on behind closed doors and drawn curtains at home or in the mosque.

On 9-11 America's Muslim people underwent a collective loss of innocence, right alongside the entire U.S. population. The burden of proof is now upon American Moslems to actively demonstrate their opposition to international terrorism. Merely proclaiming such aloud is insufficient. Far too many of the overseas Islamic governments and religious figures dissemble way too often for words alone to carry weight any longer.

If Islam in America wants to shed its suspicious aura, it will need to agressively expose and expell the militant jihadis within their ranks. Anything less is both unacceptable and just as liable to wind up tainting all American Muslims with the sins of their radical brethern. Those who refuse to accept how the hyper-violence of militant jihad has forever disqualified it as a worthy tool of change must needs be identified as sympathizers and treated accordingly.

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 5:14:00 PM|| 2004-11-28 5:14:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Zenster, Is there any evidence that there remain any militant jihadis in the ranks of American Muslims, known to be such to American Muslims? How do you expect them to prove this negative?

Do you know that no Muslim provided assistance in the investigation of the Lackawana 5 (or however many there were).

If they had information would you prefer they turn it over to the Washington Times or the FBI? If you were the FBI would you release the information that you had a source within the Muslim community that was providing evidence?

Yeah, let's watch these guys, but let's hold off on blanket condemnations.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 5:26:56 PM|| 2004-11-28 5:26:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Mrs D - What's your position on making fun of (what are in American English) funny names? If I poke fun at, say, Jherk Al Meoff on RB, do you think this could doom the WoT and cause us to lose those millions of Mythical Moderate Muslims to The Dark Side?

Just checking, heh. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 5:48:04 PM|| 2004-11-28 5:48:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Yeah, let's watch these guys, but let's hold off on blanket condemnations.

Mrs. Davis, I think you misread my words. Do you honestly think that nowhere in America, at not one single mosque, violent jihad is still being preached?

Quite simply, I find this nearly impossible to believe. America's way of life, its equality for women, entertainment content, distribution of pornography and mingling of the sexes represent too much of an affront to the basic tenets of Islam.

It goes beyond comprehension that there still does not exist factions or groups within America's borders that remain supportive of violent jihad. Such groups have spiritual leaders and those leaders operate out of mosques.

Until American Muslims take it upon themselves to begin attending other mosques and reviewing their teachings on a regular basis, I will find it difficult to accept their protestations against terrorism. Progress will only come when Islam in America undergoes a thorough scrutiny by its own adherents. I do not see that yet.

Nowhere do I advocate guilt by association, but such glaring facts as the thundering silence of Islam as a whole regarding Beslan, Bali, Madrid and 9-11 still rings in my ears. Were I a devout believer, any tainting of my faith in such a vile manner would evoke the most vociferous outbursts and vigorous measures being taken to ensure that no such besmirching would ever occur again. This I do not see and it leaves me entirely skeptical. I would think that any other sane person should remain suspicious as well. If that offends other Muslims in America, quite frankly, tough shit.

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 6:07:42 PM|| 2004-11-28 6:07:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Emerson: high credibility. MPAC: near-zero.

But radicals trying to rebrand themselves as ostensible "moderates" seems to be the order of the day: even Siraj Wahaj seems to be in on the action!

Posted by someone 2004-11-28 6:30:53 PM|| 2004-11-28 6:30:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I hope I have not misread your words, Zenster.

Is violent jihad being preached? I don't know. I expect that our domestic security agencies have recordings of every mullah, imam, etc. in America for voice print purposes. I expect that they have divided them into groups that have no evil intent, groups that have evil intent but no capability, groups that have evil capability and groups that can be prosecuted. If anyone were calling for the violent overthrow of the U. S. on a regular basis, I would expect that person to be under substantial surveillance.

That we have had no repetition of 9/11 in the U. S. may be an indication of luck or success. I suspect success and I bet some of it is attributable to quiet cooperation from Muslims.

You say you are not advocating guilt by association, but what you are saying sounds awfully like guilt by silence. While I, too, might be more outspoken than have been American Muslims, I cannot hold their silence as evidence of their complicity or support for violent jihad absent some affirmative evidence.

I also remain suspicious.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 6:33:08 PM|| 2004-11-28 6:33:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 If I poke fun at, say, Jherk Al Meoff on RB, do you think this could doom the WoT and cause us to lose those millions of Mythical Moderate Muslims to The Dark Side?

Yes. That's why I only make fun of the names of Europeans. Although already on the Dark Side, their actions have no deleterious effect.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 6:48:42 PM|| 2004-11-28 6:48:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I'm much looser in my restrictions......

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-28 6:56:56 PM|| 2004-11-28 6:56:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Making fun of names is so very cheap.

Posted by Abdullah of the One Name Only Clan 2004-11-28 7:13:59 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:13:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Mrs D - What, no smilie? Methinks you're too serious. Close brushes with Fuckwits of the Third Kind will do that.

Abbie3 - I know you. I know you well. It's your turn to pay for dinner, in fact, heh.

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 7:24:09 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:24:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 While I, too, might be more outspoken than have been American Muslims, I cannot hold their silence as evidence of their complicity or support for violent jihad absent some affirmative evidence.

I can see only one possible reason for all Islam not more vocally condemning terrorism. They simply must not realize how much their entire faith's continuing existence is riding upon the outcome.

I view the Belmont Club's "The Three Conjectures" article to be a highly accurate and cogent assessment of what Islam faces as of now. This is, indeed, their "Golden Hour" and they all act like it's no big deal. It is precisely this lack of enthusiastic reformation that leaves me so wanting for any faith in Islam's good intentions.

Pure self-preservation demands this of me. That Muslims everywhere do not seem to understand how my own stance regarding this resembles one that is spreading rapidly throughout much of the non-Muslim world stands as stark testimony with respect to how dire the situation actually is.

This type of willful blindness can no longer be explained away by innocence or naivety. There is either some sort of profoundly misplaced confidence in how Islam will transcend these potentially lethal threats or a complete and total disregard for the pronouncements of external agencies.

Either one of these postures indicates a fatal lack of seriousness in how the problem of internally cleansing Islam of violent jihadis and instituting authentic reform in general are being addressed. It is precisely this lackadaisical attitude that causes me to be so suspicious.

Inaction, be it from misplaced confidence or an unspoken attitude of presumed theological invulnerability both constitute a real and genuine threat to everybody outside of such an imbalanced equation. I refuse to pay out any more slack in the face of such complaisence.

Either Islam sets about some truly determined housecleaning, and I'm talking about reformation that goes well beyond whispering suspicions to any of our government's agencies, in order to genuinely combat the threat of militant jihadism, or else the entire faith must be brought to its knees for the destruction they have wrought.

Were their only trespass terrorism, I (only perhaps) might be of a different mind. As it stands, Islam embodies a laundry list of exactly what needs changing most in this world's day-to-day goings on.

*) Violence against women and children

*) Totalitarianism and theocratic governance

*) Intolernace of secular cultures

*) Abusive forms of capital punishment

*) Virulent anti-Semitism

*) Selective and favorable interpretation of doctrine

*) Intransigent fundamentalism

Need I go on? Yes, indeed, some of the above issues also manifest in modern Christian and Catholic doctrine as well. This in no way allays or justifies their manifestation in Islam or any other religion. Such hidebound interpretive theology has NO PLACE in a modern and pluralistic world.

And this is where we approach the nub of all preceeding arguments. Islam continues to act as though this world is NOT pluralistic, merely unacquainted with the joy that is Islam. So long as this mindset is conveyed by the Muslim faith, it can go straight to Hell, do not collect $200, do not pass Go.

In closing, I remain glad that you too, Mrs. Davis, also remain suspicious as well.

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 7:28:02 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:28:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 .com, looks like Zenster wants to be serious, so I'll only observe that it's better to use text and leave the wondering than to use smilies and remove all doubt.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 7:30:16 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:30:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 ROFL! I could play the troll and say that resorting to quotes (or paraphrasing) or images indicates weakness, blah blah blah, but since your logic is unassailable, I'll desist.

So. Zen. Fair to say you're a tad disdainful, and straddling pissed off, huh? Yep, me too.
:-)

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 7:39:02 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:39:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Zenster, that was not at all how I was reading your previous messages. I do not equate the War on Terror with a War of Islam. Our enemy in the War on Terror has taken advantage of weaknesses in Islam and Middle Eastern cultures to the detriment of both. The fate of Islam is a matter of indifference to me.

I am only concerned about the security of the United States. As you point out, Muslims have handled their PR challenge in the west horrendously. The shortcomings of Islamic behaviour have become evident to the rest of the world. To me the resolution of this problem is of far less consequence than how many Americans die in the process and the financial cost.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 7:40:58 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:40:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 it's better to use text and leave the wondering than to use smilies and remove all doubt.

I'll file this under Twain's:

"Be nice. It will astonish your friends and confuse your enemies."

---------------------

So. Zen. Fair to say you're a tad disdainful, and straddling pissed off, huh?

STRADDLING?!

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 7:44:38 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:44:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 To be honest, .com. I am struggling, perhaps not-so-valiantly, with your own well known "fry-em-up" attitude.

In short, our world has so many other fish to "fry" like hunger, illiteracy, disease and violence against women, that the diversion of funds which international terrorism represents is tantamount to perfect justification for the use of nuclear arms. Fewer people would die in the long run and our world's progress would be less impeded. Somehow, I'm just not at the point of such a nihilistic mindset. Must have something to do with my mother surviving the Nazi occupation of Denmark. On a more ominous note, there's always room for change.

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 7:50:31 PM|| 2004-11-28 7:50:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 If you do ever find a use for it, please correct the to them. Your listeners may not be a perceptive as Rantburg's readers.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 8:06:17 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:06:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 It seems to me the crux of Islam is No one is responsible for their actions. If a hostage is taken, it's "Allah's will". If the hostage is killed, it's Allah's will". It's Allah's will that Muslims kill anyone who disagrees with or "defiles" the Quoran. This attitude absolves all Muslims of personal responsibility, unlike Christianity or even, to an extant, Judaism. When Muslims kill, they have no control, it's Allah's will. They either will not or cannot look at their religion and say, "something's wrong here". This goes for their treatment of women and children as well. It's Allah's will. Their lack of education and the prohibition of aquiring knowledege only serves to enforce their view of everything.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2004-11-28 8:08:21 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:08:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 DB - Just imagine having your idiot teen son crash your brand-new Mercedes on an unauthorized joy ride and explain it as the car being defective and Allah's will, lol! An acquaintance in SA had that happen. The boy blew it off because he knew Daddy would not be able to nail him - he'd used the gambit all his own life, after all. He told me about it at lunch one day, bemoaning how the dealership's owner was from a better-connected Clan - so he had precisely zero chance of getting any break there, lol. It was sad - he couldn't go forward and he couldn't go backward. His society's blame game had trapped him and stuck him with the $70K loss. He was driving an almost-new Ford Crown Vic last I saw of him.

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 8:18:30 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:18:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 .com, have you been following things at the MEP post? It's getting pretty serious and I don't see no smilies!

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 8:25:10 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:25:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 If you do ever find a use for it, please correct the to them.

Fear not, Mrs. Davis. Your posts are always of such high calibre that the omission of an "m" was not any cause for doubt. Elsewise, I would have (undeservingly) used Twain's;

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 8:29:51 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 .com, have you been following things at the MEP post?

Linkety-link?

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 8:31:58 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:31:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Ah, the Arisified thread. No, I find anything Aris wishes to nest in becomes about Aris the Grate, and thus is of no interest or value. That was the close brush I referred to above...

Posted by .com 2004-11-28 8:32:37 PM|| 2004-11-28 8:32:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Why yes I view US Muslims as an assets against future attacks. They make good hostages. I plan of farming hogs too if you get my point.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-28 8:36:29 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-11-28 8:36:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 ah well, Mrs. D - I take your latest wobbledyness as weakness. If 19 Catholics cared to attck the US, causing 300 deaths, I would expect visits and more from the FBI . The muslims of Amerioca have done squat that I can see beyond letting CAIR, et al do damage to their patriotism by bitching. Time to put up or shut up. Manzanar awaits the next attack.

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-28 9:11:28 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:11:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 I'd expect the same, not Manzanar, Hiroshima.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-28 9:14:22 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:14:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 American Muslims are going to have to do a helluva lot more to combat terrorism and its root cause than they've done so far, before I'll consider them anything approaching an "asset" in the fight.

So far, we've gone to extreme lengths to convince the Muslim world that our fight is not with Islam, but only with terrorists and their supporters. But Muslims seem absolutely determined to turn it into a battle between us and them.

And if they don't wise up quick that's exactly what it's going to become, even though we'd rather it not. This is, indeed, Islam's last chance.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-11-28 9:19:36 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:19:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 The muslims of Amerioca have done squat that I can see beyond letting CAIR, et al do damage to their patriotism by bitching. Time to put up or shut up.

So, it's not just .com and me up against the world? Whew!

I almost wish that Islam had better answers, except for the niggling fact that so many of its adherents seem to relish what's about to come. So be it.

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 9:37:03 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:37:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 "Key intelligence asset"? Steamy pile of camel dung, rather. Have you ever heard about "TAQIYAH"?

Posted by Matt K. 2004-11-28 9:38:23 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:38:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 no, Zen, .com/PD knows EXACTLY where I'm from by now

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-28 9:52:18 PM|| 2004-11-28 9:52:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 no, Zen, .com/PD knows EXACTLY where I'm from by now

So, I'm going to have to start charging for smilies now, or what? Crimeney sakes!

Posted by Zenster 2004-11-28 10:03:41 PM|| 2004-11-28 10:03:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 I dunno. As far as make-believe allies go, I'll take Santa Claus over "moderate muslims" anyday. Oh sure, the Easter Bunny's a great guy, always quick with an egg or to light up your smoke. But Santa's got your back, and his intel is dope.

Posted by BH 2004-11-28 10:37:47 PM|| 2004-11-28 10:37:47 PM|| Front Page Top

00:16 RWV
23:16 lex
23:01 lex
22:58 lex
22:52 Barbara Skolaut
22:49 lex
22:37 BH
22:34 Ian F
22:32 mojo
22:19 Zenster
22:10 jackal
22:08 jackal
22:03 Zenster
21:59 Richard Aubrey
21:57 jackal
21:53 Frank G
21:52 Frank G
21:46 Monk
21:45 lex
21:44 jackal
21:43 Random thoughts
21:38 Matt K.
21:38 RWV
21:37 Zenster