Article

2003-03-23 Iraq

Two-Man British Tornado Downed by U.S. Missile

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Posted by Fred Pruitt 2003-03-23 09:02 am|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I, too, feel for the British. However, I'm beginning to see a pattern emerging already - the British, while well-equipped and trained by European standards, aren't quite up to the capabilities of the United States. Give them credit - they keep up, they do their job, and they never, ever quit. But they seem to make a horrendous number of plain MISTAKES, probably from insufficient training, and especially insufficient training in a multinational environment.

The pilots are still dead.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-03-23 12:31:15|| 2003-03-23 12:31:15|| Front Page Top

#2 thanks Dar Steckelberg . welcome to spend them $$$ on me . I like lager and fast cheap women along with a regime change mixer :)

Posted by biggus 2003-03-23 13:05:32|| 2003-03-23 13:05:32|| Front Page Top

#3 Old Patriot, I don't think its wise to start criticising the capabillity of allies before the full facts concerning a few fatal accidents are known. British pilots definitely do not suffer from inadequate training, and to compare the British armed forces, in terms of professionalism, to the rest of Europe, is meaningless.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-23 14:09:09|| 2003-03-23 14:09:09|| Front Page Top

#4 Old Patriot, I don't know how you say such things so lightly. We know next to nothing about this incident. The IFF mechanism may have malfunctioned, or an ATC may have routed the plane into the wrong corridor, or some other reason--blaming the pilots, their training, or any other human element at this point is presumptuous. Don't forget there are human elements besides the UK pilots: American Patriot crews, radar operators, and ATCs, among many other possibilities.

Additionally, let me point out that the biggest single cause of British casualties so far--the CH-46 crash--involved American aviators and American equipment maintained by American crews, so I would think pointing fingers is unwise in any case. Those brave British Marines were merely passengers.

I'm very grateful to the Brits for their support, their contributions, and their sacrifice. This is a trying time in our nation's history, but such times reveal who our true friends are.

Biggus--I'll be happy to buy you a pint, and you can introduce me to the fast, cheap women!

Posted by Dar Steckelberg 2003-03-23 14:39:00|| 2003-03-23 14:39:00|| Front Page Top

#5 I spent 13 years of my Air Force career working in Europe. What I say, I don't say lightly. I enjoyed my time in England more than anywhere else, but I don't let that blind me. The British military budget, the arrogance of their government "leadership", and the constraints under which British military personnel must train pose some serious problems for those personnel. I've worked 36 hours at a stretch during an exercise - very, very few of the British, and NONE of any other NATO nation except the Turks, train like that. Tired people, people under excess stress, and people who have limited trained in a wartime environment, make mistakes. Mistakes in wartime can be fatal, as we've seen. The Brits aren't alone - somebody goofed with a wrong turn, failed to see a marker, and ended up driving 11 people into Iraqi hands. The greater the stress, the more likely mistakes will be made. That's not implying that the Brits, or our own personnel, are to blame, that they're inadequate, or anything else. It's just a fact of (military) life.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-03-23 15:16:36|| 2003-03-23 15:16:36|| Front Page Top

#6 according to Fox they didn't have their IFF on or set correctly

Posted by Frank G 2003-03-23 10:04:05|| 2003-03-23 10:04:05|| Front Page Top

#7 I really feel for the British. They've been our staunchest ally throughout, and they are suffering casualties way out of proportion to their presence.

I decided this last night: I'm pledging to visit the UK in the next year and spread some tourist dollars there to show my appreciation for their true friendship and sacrifice.

Posted by Dar Steckelberg 2003-03-23 10:53:30|| 2003-03-23 10:53:30|| Front Page Top

#8 Old Patriot, you're better qualified than I am to register an opinion on training differences. Thank you for your service!

What evidence are you seeing of this pattern you mention? The helicopter collision at sea is the only incident I'm aware of at this point that was truly a British-only mishap (I understand the sole American involved was a passenger or observer).

Posted by Dar Steckelberg 2003-03-23 15:35:59|| 2003-03-23 15:35:59|| Front Page Top

#9 Not a surpise! I appreciate that war will cause errors in such a logistical nightmare, but it seems the only casualties the British get is by American fuck ups!

Posted by Nedski 2003-03-23 16:21:08|| 2003-03-23 16:21:08|| Front Page Top

#10 Just read Dar's post from this morning and coincidently had decided the same thing with my Mrs last night. We are saving money to see the World Cup 2006 with our 3 kids but now, rather than give that money to the treacherous Hun, we'll be in the UK. I'd rather watch it on TV in a proper Brit pub and my wife wants to see Scotland.

Those British pilots died as heroes in my book.

Posted by JDB 2003-03-23 16:58:25|| 2003-03-23 16:58:25|| Front Page Top

#11 Heck I'm flying British Airways to Europe from now on (or Air Canada if it's still around). I used to always fly Lufthansa.

Posted by RW 2003-03-23 17:46:05|| 2003-03-23 17:46:05|| Front Page Top

#12 Bulldog, comments from a few claiming how much bigger and better we are should be ignored as bluster. Americans are grateful and consider the British to second to none! Don't allow a few stray comments to overshadow the respect Americans feel toward your soldiers and sailors.

Posted by anonymous 2003-03-23 18:37:04|| 2003-03-23 18:37:04|| Front Page Top

#13 LOL anonymous, don't worry. We wouldn't have the forces we do without a competitive spirit...

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-23 18:59:03|| 2003-03-23 18:59:03|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm a fast, cheap woman and I'm coming to visit the Old Dart again and the USA too, in the next few years. Hoorah!
Today I gave some flowers to the US consulate, tomorrow to the UK consulate. The Brits are quality, quality fighters, and I hope they don't lose any more of these precious souls.

Posted by anon1 2003-03-24 03:34:43|| 2003-03-24 03:34:43|| Front Page Top

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