Article

2003-06-18 Europe

Kafkablogging with the Council of Europe

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Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-06-18 10:35 am|| || Front Page|| [10 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Tried to get a comment on this from TGA (on another thread last night the "revisionist" one)would still be interested in getting his read.

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-06-18 13:31:03|| 2003-06-18 13:31:03|| Front Page Top

#2 "The Council is an important 'stalking horse' for the Bureaubots of the EU apparatus"

I'm not certain what 'stalking horse' means, but just to make it clear - the Council of Europe has no connection whatsoever with the European Union, other than that they both include European states.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-18 14:03:12|| 2003-06-18 14:03:12|| Front Page Top

#3 stalking horse - n. 1. a horse, a figure of a horse, behind which a hunter hides in stalking game. 2. anything put forward to hide one's true plans; pretext. 3. a political candidate put forth to conceal the candidacy of another person or to draw votes from a rival. [1510-1520] - Random House Webster's College Dictionary Rev. 1995.

via VikingPhoenix

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-18 14:28:00|| 2003-06-18 14:28:00|| Front Page Top

#4 "right of reply" to those who have been criticized by a person or organization."

This is of course absolute nonsense. This kind of "right of reply" doesn't even exist in the classic professional media. I can criticize anyone the way I see fit. He has the right to get a reply published if I say something which (the person says) is untrue. Let's say if I criticize someone for a policy he follows, no right to reply. If I print a fact about something that is not true, that person has a right to reply. Like: Mr. B met Mr. C on April 1st and he did not, right to reply (the editor might correct an "error" on his own or say he stands by his opinion (as long as it is not slander, no further right to reply).

If I say this person slept with his secretary than he can sue me for slander and if I can't prove it I'm in trouble.

Now I do believe that the same rights should be applied to professional online media. But to force a private website to publish replies is bogus. It might even be against the law (another law). German law says that you have to check your guest books periodically and remove illegal postings or you become liable for them (that makes sense if somebody posts a link to child pornography for example). In Germany you also must not link to sites that deny the Holocaust (U.S. fredom of speech goes further in that respect). Now if I published a harsh criticism of some neonazi who denies the Holocaust he would have the right to post a reply on my website? Yeah right.

Now if I post infamous lies about a person he can still sue me and rightfully so. Let's say I post an information that somebody regularily abuses his children and it's not true he can sue me. Private site or not, fair enough. (He could do the same if I said it loud in a restaurant.) That's where freedom of speech ends. I don't think we need a new law for that (he can already do so now and there is no anonymity that protects the poster). This draft has no chance of passing.

Btw the Hatch proposal was the most stupid one I have heard from an US senator in years. Somebody better explain this guy how computers work.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-18 15:54:58|| 2003-06-18 15:54:58|| Front Page Top

#5 Btw the Hatch proposal was the most stupid one I have heard from an US senator in years. Somebody better explain this guy how computers work.

Somebody needs to tell Hatch to re-read the 4th Amendment, too. Senatorial stupidity like that (and the recent comments of the junior Senator from NY) is why many Americans are learning NOT to trust their Government. A govenment of free people cannot stand without the people's trust. That's why the 2nd Amendment was included.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-06-18 16:35:51|| 2003-06-18 16:35:51|| Front Page Top

#6 Well, the Euros have Bill O'Reilly on their side...

For what nothing it's worth.

Posted by someone 2003-06-18 11:15:23|| 2003-06-18 11:15:23|| Front Page Top

#7 Sent an email to Fred about this last night, would like to hear his take on this. I bet it'll be something like: "Cold day in hell"?

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-18 11:29:55|| 2003-06-18 11:29:55|| Front Page Top

#8 Ernest Brown> All I'm saying is that the Council of Europe has no official connection to the EU. Whether it has "inordinate sway" or whatever, as a "think-tank"... that's beyond my knowledge.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-18 21:48:38|| 2003-06-18 21:48:38|| Front Page Top

#9 Aris,

(Sigh) Yes, I know that the Council of Europe is not the same animal as the Council of the European Union, which -is- the EU's main decision-making body. However, the two organizations work together, as the following press release (note the date!) shows.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-06-18 22:28:45|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-06-18 22:28:45|| Front Page Top

#10 True German Ally,

Orrin Hatch has a long history of this stupidity. As for the Council of Europe's nonsense not getting enacted, I think that you are placing too much faith in the common sense and classical liberal leanings of EU bureaucrats, like the ones who brought us mandatory "pig toys."

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-06-18 22:50:09|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-06-18 22:50:09|| Front Page Top

#11

Aris,

Perry de Haviland at
Samizdata makes the relation of the two clear here:

"The proposed EU regulation of blogs and other forms of Internet speech being suggested by the Council of Europe (a quasi-governmental think-tank whose views have inordinate sway with the EU's policy making elite) is very revealing about what lies at the heart of The Great European Project."

Are you arguing that the Council of Europe's policy recommendations are -not- taken seriously by the EU?

The actual draft is here.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-06-18 20:49:17|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-06-18 20:49:17|| Front Page Top

#12 a pony? How about a stalking horse?

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-18 21:12:54|| 2003-06-18 21:12:54|| Front Page Top

14:49 True German Ally
21:27 Anonymous
21:15 Frank G
21:12 Frank G
21:10 Old Patriot
20:49 Ernest Brown
20:46 raptor
20:31 True German Ally
20:25 raptor
20:21 raptor
20:19 True German Ally
20:15 raptor
20:03 raptor
20:00 raptor
19:51 Secret Master
19:38 Alaska Paul
19:37 Old Patriot
18:59 Cyber Sarge (VRWC California Chapter)
18:58 JFM
18:51 Cyber Sarge (VRWC California Chapter)
18:50 Becky
18:25 Alaska Paul
18:24 liberalhawk
18:23 ColoradoConservative