Article

2004-04-02 Iraq-Jordan

Den Beste: a targeted response to Falluja

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Posted by Mike 2004-04-02 1:20:50 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The one qualm I have so far with how things are going with regard to a response is that they're sort of musing about it out loud; saying that it will be overwhelming, at a time of our choosing, blah blah blah. Practically sounds like a verbal threat. Why? Just formulate the plan, and when the time comes, execute it as thoroughly and professionally as possible. Along with capturing or killing all the people involved in the deaths of the 4 Americans, the idea to get across is that we mean BUSINESS, and blustering about it, no matter how small, is less likely to create fear in the enemy than apparent visible preparations (such as an obvious buildup in the presence of U.S. combat personnel) coupled with little to no mention of upcoming military plans.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-02 1:46:00 AM|| 2004-04-02 1:46:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Just planting fear in their minds can acheive results. Psy Ops

Posted by Anonymous3987 2004-04-02 1:55:00 AM|| 2004-04-02 1:55:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The logical analysis he included from MEMRI was written by the cream of the AlQ / JI crop. It makes sense to a Westerner because it is logical by Western standards. Though I agree it's accurate, it is very misleading to rely upon it too heavily here. These AlQ / JI / whatever people only control events up to a point. The pulling of the RPG trigger was the last they had to say about the event in Fallujah. C&C stopped right there. Everything that followed was out of their hands - and this is where Charles Johnson got it right. The crowd was mainly accidental bystanders and this was as non-Western a response as can be imagined, today.

What the people of Fallujah think and how they will react to our next moves must be unhinged from that JI article. The Arabs of Fallujah will not react according to our Western ideas of what is rational and logical. The cretins at the bridge saw what they perceived to be a chance to relieve some of their "humiliation" by America. That's it. Almost an autonomous reaction.

What will happen next and its success or failure will be based upon Arab thinking: Are they weak or strong? Do we mock them and sign up with the foreigners to remove the stain from our "honor" by dying to drive them out? Or do we fear them for they are some badass motherfuckers who will punish any and every form of resistence? And maybe we should sign up for the Police or Army or assist them with intel - they're going to win. For most, it will be more or less black and white.

Listen, the vast majority of them fail to comprehend just what the hell we're even doing there. They were too cowardly to deal with Saddam and the Ba'athists themselves. They saw our power in removing them. Then they saw what? US troops trying to be buddies and doing good deeds. As a source, the Life of Brian movie is amazingly accurate. Recall the end of active ops and the beginning of the good deeds. "What have the Romans ever done for us?" And the answer was roads, schools, aquaducts, you name it. Very funny stuff for Western minds. I guarantee you that Arabs watching that movie would react totally differently and say, "They occupy our land! Death to the Romans!"

To tell the truth, we have singularly failed to impress them in an Arab way, post war, and failed to fill what they see as the power vaccuum. Sadr & Co, the Ba'athist remnants, and the incoming foreign jihadis will do that, in Iraqi minds, while we absorb casualties, if we don't seize this moment. The message this sends is even more confusing to the Iraqis than it is to our American idiotarians - who just lump it into the evil Bush conspiracy of the week.

In a way, Fallujah is an opportunity, a pivotal moment in this Iraq venture, for us to put up or shut up. The proof must be in Arab terms, not Western. Either we sweep Fallujah clean and deal out extreme penalties for everyone who's uncooperative or associated with the jihadis (this latest event is only one of many, after all) whether foreign or Ba'athist --or-- we should start building little Fort Apache's all over the country, withdraw into them, and watch the whole thing break down into civil war - with us absorbing even more casulaties. There is a parallel with our Old West. Until the Generals brought the soldiers out of their forts and put them on the offensive - and gave license to harsh and even brutal actions in dealing with resistance - they were embattled and ineffective, merely targets for opportunistic events like the one in Fallujah.

Old Spook's cordon, section, sweep, and cleanse plan, Opn Fallujah Kow-Tow in my mind, would work and send the right message: this shit stops here and now. Coming soon to a city near you: Fallujah now washes our feet. Next.

BTW, I still continue to believe that the Kurds should receive as much autonomy as we can afford them. We should upgrade their arms and let them control their entire region's borders and police their own streets. They should not have to await the outcome of the Sunni / Shi'a re-education and pacification, assuming we intend to do it. They deserve the chance to proceed on ahead and be backed to the hilt.

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 3:07:15 AM|| 2004-04-02 3:07:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I think both Steven and Charles make some points.
It's hard to tell what's really going on over there; that's why I take my cues from Bremer, Kimmitt and Abizaid.
I heard Bernard Kerik (who organized the police in Iraq for 6 months last year) tell Fox News that Falluja should be "levelled" to nip this crap in the bud.
Ideally, I'd love to see Iraqis turn in their jihadi killers "brothers."
Maybe even meet the punishment out themselves--remember the Iraqi Police were launching an investigation.
What bothered me the most about the incident (other than the defilement of the bodies) was that it was young boys who were doing a lot of the atrocities.
How do you "save" homicidal children or teach democracy and equal rights to kids who delight in murder and barbarism?
I think you have to be there--really.
At some point, the Rule of Law has to apply to everyone as a key ingredient of the democratic rule.
Mass killing, such as many in America have proposed, is what Iraqis are already familiary with.
Being jailed or executed for participating in 4 murders plus defiling their bodies after being given a fair trial is infinitely more desirable.
Speaking of trials, I think that Iraqis will settle down a lot more once Saddam is executed and you'll see far less Baathist resistance.
To take Den Beste's side (I guess) there are good reasons that the Marines didn't charge in and level the place yesterday or the day before.
We'll know them soon enough.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-02 4:33:38 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-02 4:33:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I think Bernard Kerik said that the jihadi should be leveled...not the city.

Posted by Bogeybob 2004-04-02 8:15:51 AM|| 2004-04-02 8:15:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I've got some Marine buddies who are in-country. What the Belmont club mentions is backed up by military intelligence on the ground. From what I've been told, there were clear indications that an ambush of the responding force was in place. That's part of the reason a bridge is where the bodies were hung from. A bridge is a good place for an ambush. That's why Iraqi forces were the ones that went in and that's why it was 10 hours later. Don't underestimate the enemy.

Posted by AllahHateMe 2004-04-02 10:48:24 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:48:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 the above article says, more eloquently, what I said yesterday.

Dot com the AQ may only control events up to a point - we also only control events up to a point - thats the nature of war. The question is, will an unrestrained US response, of the type some have called for here, that makes no distinction among Sunni Arabs, do more good by making hem fear us, or more harm by making them hate us? When AQ strategists who are in touch with the scene there, and US officers, who are in touch with the scene there, are in agreement about the strategic situation, and the people who beleive otherwise are ideologues who are NOT in touch with the scene there, and who are arguing based on a priori beleifs about all muslims everywhere, I know which strategic evaluation I believe.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 11:04:48 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:04:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 key grafs

The key to achieving most of that is establishment of a relatively successful liberal democracy in Iraq, which was the primary reason for the invasion (rhetoric about WMDs notwithstanding). And it can't be done unless the Sunnis participate and are accepted by the Kurds and Shiites.

During the Saddam years, the Sunnis were the top dogs, and Kurds and Shiites suffered very badly. With Saddam gone and the Baathists shattered, if what replaces them in turn oppresses the Sunnis, then in the long run it will fail to achieve the larger political goals the US requires: to inspire reform and liberalization of the entire region. We need the Sunnis themselves to participate, and we need the Shiites and Kurds to accept them.

And if we succeed, and if it actually does inspire liberalization elsewhere, it will be a catastrophe for the Islamists, and they know it. The insurgency in Iraq now is attempting to make that fail, by trying to prevent any reconciliation with the Sunnis.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 11:10:27 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:10:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Lh - Wow. A very "Richard Clarke" post - congrats. In singling me out and associating me by implication with the scorched earth posts, when I obviously favor OS's approach, you clearly imply that wisdom can't possibly come from such a tainted source of skewed experiences. Fascinatingly disingenuous and disinformative post wrapped in one decent opinion point: whom you trust. Very very good. I bow to your cleverly crafted personal affront. Well done, Lh. You've just proven you're an asshole with a personal chip on your shoulder, but I always give credit where due. Very good.

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 11:32:05 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:32:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Chill a little, guys, we're pretty much all on the same side here (with the possible execption of Murat, and the definite exception of NMM and the recent Serbian Lop-Eared Troll infestation) and we can disagree without getting personal.

Posted by Mike 2004-04-02 11:49:18 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:49:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 IM sorry Dot com perhaps i misread you. I read you as disagreeing with Den Beestes analysis - the first line of your post was to question him, IIUC. I presumed that therefore your view of what should be done in Fallujah was different from DB's - I know youve called for cordoning the city - I interpretated that you wanted to used cordoning to punish the city generally, and to use it for that purpose against the Sunni triangle generally. I may have misinterpreted you. Do you agree with DB's charecterization of what we must do? BTW, Im not saying we all must agree, disagreement and debate is good. I did single you out on this thread, as I THOUGHT (perhaps incorrectly) that you were the only one here who doesnt agree with the DB approach. Charles Johnson may disagree with DB, but he doesnt post here, and i dont read his site.

Its no secret that i take a generally different approach to the GWOT than you do Dot com, and I see dangers in your approach, as i see dangers in the approach of those to my left. However I dont mean to be personal in my disagreement - I do get somewhat emotional in some of my responses to you, but will you admit that some of your own posts are themselves emotional??? Im sorry, but someone who posts things as "provocative" as you do, should have thicker skin.

Again, if someone comes in here and posts that we should get out of iraq, cause its distracting from the WOT, or that a law enforcement approach is appropriate, most of us would attack him severely. If you post an approach I strongly disagree with, why should you expect I not strongly disagree with you.

I also dont know what the hell you mean about Richard Clarkish - my disagreement about tactics with SEVERAL folks here happened only the other day - now DB posts essentially the same thing I just said, and suddenly its all great?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 1:13:43 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:13:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Though I agree it's accurate, it is very misleading to rely upon it too heavily here.

So you DONT agree with DB's recommendations?

everything that followed was out of their hands - and this is where Charles Johnson got it right.

CJ is NOT there, and is someone who regularly argues based on his a priori beliefs about muslims in general, largely based on his own reading of muslim texts. In fact it was him I had in mind when i refered to such a priori beliefs, as much as yourself.

The crowd was mainly accidental bystanders

Exactly the point made by a lefty in another board "see, it wasnt the insurgents, it was the locals! ha!" Me, Im not so sure. AQ et all have been in Fallujah for months, and are on very good terms with at least a large segment of the locals. AQ has studied Mogadishu, and has talked about it for YEARS. What reason is there to think they havent talked about doing this (mutilation) DELIBERATELY and as a STRATEGY, and havent prepped the locals to do it when the opportunity comes up? It makes perfect sense that they would. And if this is just the thing the locals do naturally, why hasnt it happened in Iraq in the entire last year??? No opportunity? I dont know, but i dont think so. Whereas if its strategy theres plenty of reason to do it now. A. Political transition coming up B. Attacks on Americans failing thus far either to lead to retreat, or to overreaction C. Even attacks on Shiites failed to provoke civil war.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 1:23:18 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 My ego must be feeling fragile today or something, but I _did_ post this on Wednesday, hours before Den Beste or Wretchard figured it out:

#45 In my opinion, it was a baited attack. The crowd and bodies on the bridge were the bait. They hoped we would attempt to disperse the crowd and recover the bodies. Every mounted avenue of approach was probably mined with IEDs. Every potential landing zone was surrounded with RPG toting jihadis waiting to reprise Blackhawk Down.

I still think we should have wasted everyone on that bridge and then gone into the town as OP and others outlined.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 1:25:43 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:25:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 11A5s Yes! I remember distinctly seeing it at RB first.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-02 2:08:55 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:08:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Jeez, I don't want to write a book - and I'm sure you don't want to read one by me. I took offense because you implied offense by disparaging my experiences and ability to reason. I offer original thoughts here in RB with at least the frequency of anyone else. I don't suggest it's infallible - so pick away. But you got personal, IMHO. I'll stop there and get on with explaining what I thought I said in prior posts.

"So you DONT agree with DB's recommendations?"
100%? No. Relying upon logic, Western style, to explain the entire incident is the point I think is dangerous. JI leadership is logical in assessing CA intentions, true. Planners of this act may be as astute and planned for this with many possibilities in mind, such as those clearly pointed out by 11A5S. I suggested that the planners' C&C went *poof* with the pull of the trigger on the first RPG round - the rest was not logical in Western terms, was it?

Do you think the majority of the people present, yes mostly bystanders IMHO, knew what was coming and held a loya jirga and decided together to do what was done? No, of course not - and neither do I or CJ. Charles Johnson made this point: the barbarity that followed the attack was very very Arab and was about "honor" and "humiliation" - do you disagree?

What the planners did or did not intend became irrelevant - it snowballed along Arab logic lines. They (AlQ / JI/ whomever) are not omniscient and merely gambled they would get a desirable response from the Marines. What has actually happened should be seen as a failure for them and, in fact, their worst nightmare. Once again, they have managed to shit on the rug in their own living room.

I would guess the planners did hope for the outrage response - you can bet what was posted here was spoken aloud in the CA Mil Cmd discussions regards the response. Decisions don't come out of a vaccuum - even in the military - most of the time. I personally know and worked with 2 retired Army 3-Star Gens for 7 years with a company in the US. You don't know everything about me - and dismissing my experience with Arabs in SA is offensive and, indeed, disingenuous: The Arab jihadis we are facing are PRECISELY the Wahhabi shitheads I worked with for 4+ years in their sandbox.

The Gens I knew who had to make a tough decision ALWAYS asked for various people with specific expertise to a meeting, picked our brains, and then made their decision. That's how I came to know them - and their decision-making process. Both followed the same model. If the AlQ or whomever perp'ed this event though they would get the outrage response so that we would alienate further (we are, indeed, aliens to them in reasoning) the locals, well they failed. We both agree this is good, I believe.

If Wretchard's suggestions are right, then the decision to approach it with OS's wickedly wise plan was what the CA Mil Cmd distilled out of the input and brainstorming. I hope so, because it should make both of us very happy, I believe.

That is the logic behind my posts.

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 2:14:35 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:14:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Do you think the majority of the people present, yes mostly bystanders IMHO, knew what was coming and held a loya jirga and decided together to do what was done? No, of course not - and neither do I or CJ.

I dont think they knew that theyd get two humvees coming down the road that day, no. I do think that the ambush was planned, in fact i think its fairly obvious. Given that, i dont see why the mutilations couldnt have been planned. And I presume that in an AQ controlled city the folks who would have been out on the street would have been the ones who sympathized with AQ, and were in synch with their plans, not just a random group of bystanders. Do you think the guys who cheered the fall of the Saddam statue in Firdos square last April were representative of Baghdadis? If we can get a crowd together, why wouldnt AQ be able to?

I respect that you spent 4 years in Saudi. I think you will note that I generally respect your postings wrt to Saudi. I note that not all muslims are like Saudis. In this case Americans who have spent the last year in Iraq have strong opinions about whats going on in Iraq.

I dont doubt that the specifics have roots in the local culture - but I think its AQ digging down to get to those roots. Again its not something seen previously in Iraq in a year of occupation.

again, i think the Charles Johnson approach to the WOT is fundamentally at variance with the Den Beste approach - different in assumptions and in strategies. It is just at much at variance with the DB approach as the "its only law enforcement" approach is with the DB approach. The CJ approach is capable of undermining the DB approach, and for those of us who support the DB approach, it is therefore quite dangerous.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 2:42:18 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:42:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I gotta agree with dotcom. When the Iraqi Hashemites were overthrown in the 50's, they got the same treatment I believe: murdered, dragged through the streets, and strung up. Hell, the third (?)Caliph, Othman, (one of the "just" ones, remember) was done in Falluja style, too.

I was musing about this in regards to Palestinian child sacrifice and the rise of the Moloch cult in the same exact geographical area millenia ago. Can memes really propagate in a culture for that long? Or is it something in the water? In either event, it makes you respect the prophets of Israel even more. To stand up to that kind of evil 2,500 years ago, with no precedents and only your faith to sustain you requires cojones grandes.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 2:52:42 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:52:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Liberalhawk: I think that the Den Beste approach leads to the Charles Johnson approach. We cannot sustain the political will long enough to successfully "democritize" Dar al Islam. Did we democritize Japan and Germany? Yes! But they had already chosen modernity. Dar al Islam has not. I prefer the 11A5S strategy, which is identical to the British continental strategy of pre-Liberal times: play them off against each other until they're exhausted. I would argue that the decision by Liberal governments in Britain to abandon the continental strategy in favor of "principled diplomacy" and the Entente Cordiale led directly to WW1 and millions dead. I think that we face a similar decision now.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 3:12:50 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:12:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 LH - 2 Humvees? SUV's is what I saw. But that's just fluff...

"I do think that the ambush was planned, in fact i think its fairly obvious. Given that, i dont see why the mutilations couldnt have been planned. And I presume that in an AQ controlled city the folks who would have been out on the street would have been the ones who sympathized with AQ, and were in synch with their plans, not just a random group of bystanders."
Careful - you've just implicated much of Fallujah as AlQ and made a terrific case for the scorched earth, sew salt, response.

"i think the Charles Johnson approach to the WOT is fundamentally at variance with the Den Beste approach"
I disagree. In this case the point I mentioned, the brutality after the attack, was the ONLY point on which CJ varied from DB. And I don't agree they're at odds all the time. I read them both "religiously" (a term an atheist uses sparely!) - and to tell the truth, they don't overlap all that frequently in their commentary. DB analyses and proposes reasons why shit happens and carefully scrutinized possible courses of action -while- CJ reports and decries the hypocrisy and brutality of Paleos, the Press, and apologist orgs - connecting the dots between them. Not the same gig at all. There's little I've seen to support any regular variance between them. Present examples if you want to pursue this.

I find them both valuable as sources of different kinds of information. I would say that DB builds the toughest logic boxes more consistently than anyone else I've ever read. I certainly don't vary from him without due reasoning and consideration! I like my ass where it is and not handed to me on a platter! But, DB doesn't know everything. There are people here and other places who know more about Military Affairs and the WoT. I've seen outstanding posts in other places, including RB, which vary from DB on some points. I just try to make sense of it and give credit where due, that's all. Maybe it's expertise-specific, maybe it's another factor. But this is pointless - your opinion, my opinion, no big deal. DB rocks. So do other people.

Anyway - life is good, I think, because the CA Mil Cmd seems as though they are going to do this right... I will be glued to Fox and the 'Net for the next 24 hrs or until I collapse, I assure you! And, in sum, I don't think we disagree on much of substance regards a rational and methodical "fair" approach. I just hope they're wearing hobnail boots on this march and make the point in such a way that the Arabs get it. Permanently. And then rinse, repeat, everywhere in Iraq. Okay, I'll STFU. Cheers and Best Regs - keep kicking ass. When it's mine, I'll try to defend it, heh. 8-)

11A5S - You're way over MY head! Let's talk about the US Civil War so I have a prayer of keeping up with you!

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 3:36:14 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:36:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 But they had already chosen modernity. Dar al Islam has not.

"Dar al islam" is not a monolith - clearly Turkey HAS chosen modernity, for example, and Indonesia is choosing it. I beleive Iraq will choose it also. The Saudis and the Pashtuns havent chosen it.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:09:34 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:09:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 "Careful - you've just implicated much of Fallujah as AlQ and made a terrific case for the scorched earth, sew salt, response."

No ive implicated the folks who mutilated the corpses as AQ. I dont know how well they represent the people Fallujah. Nor does anyone else outside of Iraq. I HOPE that Gens Sanchez, Kimmit et al have a pretty good idea, and if they dont I hope theyll find out pretty quick

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:11:58 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:11:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 dot com

CJ repeatedly posts pics of Pal and other ugliness routinely captioned with "Religion of Peace" or similar. He consistenly implies that this is a clash of civilizations,and that Islam IS the problem. His commentators dont just imply it, they explicitly state it. Which comments, and worse, he allows to stand, while banning lefty trolls. DB on the other hand is commited to the largely neo con idea that this is a war WITHIN Islamic civilization, and that Islam per se is not the problem, so much as the dictatorship and corruption of the Islamic world. Yes they dont often overlap - but the different assumptions are clear. CJ is not particularly clear about recommendations - One of the ways hes irresponsible, imho.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:18:48 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:18:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Aceh is modern? The Anatolian highlands, where a mullah just got his ass handed to him for saying that men should pitch in more with chores are modern, too? The Romans made the same mistake, LH, thinking that they were safe as the cities, with their amphitheaters and aquaducts were hellenized or latinized. When the Germans and Arabs came, the people in the countryside did not fight for Rome or Byzantium.

Sorry dotcom. I'll just crawl off into my hole now...

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 4:25:22 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:25:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 as for mistreatment of corpse and the local culture, water etc.

You want to know what the Nazis did with the corpses of their victims? how they pulled false teeth out for the gold? You want to hear what was done to corpses during pogroms in Russia and elsewhere??? No one part of the globe has a monopoly on barbarism. The point is to EMERGE from it, and how. As far as i can tell Iraqis are trying damned hard to emerge from it. Many people in Falujah are NOT. And AQ is doing its best to drag them all back to barbarism, as the Nazis tried to drag europe back.

Dot com do you ever read the pro-american Iraqi bloggers, like Healing iraq or Iraq the model? Look at the horrors these people go through, from disorder, crime and AQ terror. Would all of us be strong enough to keep pushing for civilization through that? I dont know.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:25:26 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:25:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 11a5s - the romans didnt hold elections. The majority of indons have voted against even "moderate" fundies. And turkey is rapidly modernizing and urbanizing. Rome also wasnt an industrial society - no, not even compared to Turkey it wasnt.

Sure someone can dig up stories of backwardness if they dig hard enough.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:29:22 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:29:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 dot com, BTW, DB refers to CJ as a "hot head". Hardly sounds like theyre on the same wavelength, huh? Ive NEVER called you a hot head, and yet you seem to think i personally attacked you. How can you not think that DB is personally attacking CJ?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:33:00 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Yak, yak, yak. Tomahawk the bridge now. Start the siege of Fallujah now. Fuck them up NOW. These are fucking animals and scum; these aren't actual humans that can be reasoned with or pacified. Get a clue and scrape them from the earth NOW.

"...they monumentally misjudged the American character..."

Perhaps. But they sure as hell misjudged this American President's character, based on the actions of the last American President.

Posted by Hyper 2004-04-02 4:38:06 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:38:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 DB's comment on LGF

The important point to remember is that most of the people in Falluja are not "them". Most of the people of Falluja are essentially neutral. But if we treat all the people there as "them", then it will be self-fulfilling.

Remember the pictures we saw of mass demonstrations against the war here in the US? Did that represent the majority opinion within the US?

You saw pictures of swarms of people in Falluja acting in a beastly way, and you're seeing selective quotes in the news from residents of Falluja defiantly supporting what happened and threatening the US.

But does that mean that all the people there feel that way? I don't believe it does.

Please keep in mind that the news coverage we have been getting from Iraq has consistently been slanted to make it seem as if there was more opposition than there actually was. Why should today be any different

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-02 4:39:49 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:39:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 LH - Sigh.

I am "semi-retired" and blogging is all I chose to do today. It's Friday and I believe you're at work. If wrong, my apologies. Regardless, actually, you post more shit and and hold more conversations with yourself than anyone I've ever seen. So a hat tip for prolific posts and my sincerest sympathies to your keyboard.

I was done with you. DB and CJ are yours to determine in your closed-loop thread. Let me know how it turns out.

BTW, yes, I do read some of the Iraqi bloggers - but mainly Zayed who seems the most open-minded of the lot. Many people have gone through the process of transitioning from barbarism to civility - every country in the West, in fact. One of my ancestors, via handed-down stories so I can't be certain how truthful they are, described being on the wrong side of the white man's technology advantage, in fact. I agree that no individual knows what they will or won't, could or couldn't, do - until the moment arrives. That's the real test and where so many either fail by lack of gumption / nerve or lack of principles. Zayed has my best wishes. The innocents of Fallujah have my best wishes, as well.

11A5S - No! Don't go away! Shit! Ignore me!

Grrrrrrr... TURKEY...
You can lay a LOT of the "post-war" (a prematurely employed term if I ever saw one) deaths of American troops in Iraq for the last YEAR directly at Turkey's front door. One front, thanks to those gutless betraying Modern Muslim assholes CREATED the unpacified Sunni Triangle situation we face today. Hammer - Meet No Anvil. Fuck Turkey and all apologists for them, forever.

On this point you can save any and all "breath" you might wish to expend on their behalf. All of our dead soldiers which are attributable to any aspect of the attacks emanating from the Sunni Traingle, Ba'athist / AlQ / whatEVER, belong on Turkey's tab. IMHO, they will never be trustworthy again.

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 4:53:20 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:53:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 I'm in a wierd mood today PD. I'm just giving you a hard time. It's that Catholic upbringing. You want guilt trips? I'm selling tickets! ;-)

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 6:26:06 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:26:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 LOL! Well, hell, keep it up! Even when you're in weird mode, I learn from your posts!

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 6:28:37 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:28:37 PM|| Front Page Top

19:05 Anonymous4100
11:40 ex-lib
10:46 Anonymous4020
22:18 .com
21:31 Anonymous3999
13:16 Valentine
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23:04 Anonymous2U
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