Article

2004-05-13 Iraq-Jordan

Warning!! Linked video contains graphic images of the Nicolas Berg executionâŠunedited.

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Posted by JR 2004-05-13 12:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The other day, while researching the Winter Soldier meetings, I ran across a NRO article by Thomas Mackubin. His article encouraged me to add the Classic Greek word thumos to my vocabulary.

"But in soldiers, fear is overcome by what the Greeks called thumos, spiritedness and righteous anger. In the Iliad, it is thumos, awakened by the death of his comrade Patroclus that causes Achilles to leave sulking in his tent and wade into the Trojans."

<B>Thumos is the emotion that I think Ronald Reagan and the United States Military felt after the Beirut bombing (but it was not felt by Congress, American people or our media.) I think the military felt thumos again after Somalia, WTC 1, Khobar Towers, the USS Cole (but the President, Congress, the American People and the American media once felt thumos only about the Tailhook scandal.) The president and many of the American people felt thumos collectively on 9/11, but much of the media felt something else - possibly overwhelming sympathy for our enemies.

Anyway, the media is now trying to stir up some thumos against our soldiers, but I still feel only furor towards Sadr, the Iranians, Syrians, Baathists. I think our troops feel the emotion that I feel.

It is awful tempting to try to use the beheading to try to turn the tide of thumos (this comment has probably doubled the total number of times that thumos has been used since Homer's death.) I don't know if that should be done, though. It seems bad to capitalize on his death, but maybe that's what our public needs. I saw video of a Israeli EMT trying to resuscitate a stricken child and heard that Sadaam had kept a couple of thousand elementary school kids in some place that probably resembled the black hole of Calcutta about a year ago. I really haven't needed another hit of white anger since. Maybe Americans watch so many violent movies that they are unaffected by mutilated corpses swinging from a bridge.
While I am against instituting the draft, because I don't feel that a DI should have to teach respect and discipline to some punk that his parents have spoiled, I wouldn't mind seeing all American eighteen year olds get kicked out of the country for a year to see why America is good. Rumspinga seems to work for the Amish and I think that mature adults probably return from Mormon missions. Yes, I know that the rich Transis would just send their kids a yearlong holiday, but at many of those punks aren't salvageable anyway. If a section of our youth had to earn a living for a year overseas or South of the Border, they might be able to make act more maturely in college when they got back. On the whole, I think that many of them would be less annoying.
[/rant]

Posted by Super Hose 2004-05-13 3:41:36 AM|| 2004-05-13 3:41:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 SKEPTISM

There are a few points I noticed, I have never seen a man beheaded before but I have seen how chicken and sheep are being butched, thats awfully bloody the blood is pumped out by every heartbeat and creates a pool of blood.

Now looking skeptically at the pictures that beheaded man 1) has not much blood or 2) he must have been death long before beheading otherwise the blood would spout and cause a pool of blood.

Another point is this film could be easily faked, Hollywood can create some special effects that unables you to separate it from real ones.

It's not that I think that Arabs are not capable of producing such cruelty, but where is the firm evidence that this film is authentic?

At least it's timing is very welcome to Bush and Rummy, must be coincidence!

Posted by Murat 2004-05-13 7:27:56 AM|| 2004-05-13 7:27:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I want to see the Democrats calling for a draft before the election. Shouldn't Karl Rove be paying for commercials with the Dem's calling for the draft?

heh..heh...the thought of the peace-love generation supporting a presidential candidate calling for a draft is sooo rich.

Posted by B 2004-05-13 7:34:29 AM|| 2004-05-13 7:34:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Murat, do you think they made the head at Madame Tussauds? Maybe you should call them and ask. Maybe they also made Daniel Pearl's head too. And maybe those Israeli body parts that the terrorists were playing with yesterday were fake. And I bet the Twin Towers are still standing. All of those people jumping out of windows - fake!

Posted by B 2004-05-13 7:41:50 AM|| 2004-05-13 7:41:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Just two things to say to you, Murat:

(1) Kindly get yourself sodomized by a two-dicked mule.

(2) Try...just try for one fucking minute...to remember that the US media is highlighting the Berg story just long enough to tie it to Abu Ghraib in the mind of credulous leftist asshats like yourself - at which point it will be flushed down the LLL Memory Hole along with images of Daniel Pearl, the people who jumped from the WTC, and the Koranimals who screeched and capered with joy in the streeets of Ramallah on 9/11.

Posted by Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) 2004-05-13 7:54:49 AM|| 2004-05-13 7:54:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Murat - Real, fake, it really doesn't matter. Soon we'll destroy Islam and nothing will slow the process.

Posted by AzCat 2004-05-13 8:03:21 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:03:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 What you see on that disgusting video is what the Islamists' want to do to all of you infidels and your families. This is a war of civilizations even if no one in authority will admit to it, and we need to take the gloves off.
I'm partial to Neutron bombs myself.

Posted by JerseyMike 2004-05-13 8:23:10 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:23:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Well the CIA knows a lot of PSY-OPS, the propaganda machine is rolling on, a beheaded American is a nice picture to divert attention from the Abu Graib / Guantanomo Soddom and Gomora

Posted by Murat 2004-05-13 8:35:56 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:35:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 "CIA...PSY-OPS" ?????

You know something Murat that separates you from the rest of us is most of us would feel just as disgusted if your head was served up on a plate. Only truly sick people like yourself take delight in the suffering of man.

Posted by TomAnon 2004-05-13 8:46:27 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:46:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I am sure the tide of anger is building. The problem is the only known way to defeat terrorists is the slow and steady way, cell by cell. The slowness of the process gives the enemy plenty of time to commit new outrages, including the widely expected WMD attack in the US. We need to find a faster way to defeat this monster. ("Faster please.") There's no excuse for Zarqawi to be still running free in Iraq.

Posted by virginian 2004-05-13 8:55:31 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:55:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Soddom and Gomora? I didn't think you believed in the Jewish scriptures Murat.

Posted by Charles 2004-05-13 9:23:35 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:23:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Murat,

You are projecting again. It is the left that doesn't want the Abu Ghraib story to come out in full primarily because of the faked/doctored/planted photos in circulation.

Once the whole story is out, you will look like a jihadi yourself trying to explain away how those photos made it in the public sphere without the source being ascertained.

God, I love the first amendment. Sorta like placing a transponder on every leftist, ain't it?

Posted by badanov 2004-05-13 9:27:26 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-05-13 9:27:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 SH - did you know that thymos (or thumos, my greek is pretty bad) is the root word in disthymia (mild depression) hyperthymia (mild mania) etc? Im fascinated by the concept, and the political implications - Im mainly familiar from Fukiyama's hegelian "The end of history and the last man" Id like to discuss it more, but not on this thread.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 9:44:49 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:44:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Murat, has it ever occurred to you that you're a disgusting piece of shit?

Because, really, you are.

where is the firm evidence that this film is authentic?

I believe the man's decapitated body is evidence enough.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-13 9:45:03 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-13 9:45:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 #12 virginian, could you kindly indicate which side you mean in your reference to 'terrorists'. I used to be clear that 'terrorist' meant darker, bearded foreigners, but it could now also mean white people who kill POW's & set dogs on them in their cell, after invading their country. The savages are clearly now on both sides, one side is covert in their deeds; another side is somewhat more open about their acts of vengeance & retribution for their countrymen... Congratulations for what you have done to the world USA & kiss goodbye to my previous support and sympathy for 9/11. So big, so rich, so many weapons! Not so smart though...

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 10:00:02 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:00:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 ...and using your logic Diesele, a women deserves to be raped because she is wearing a mini-skirt and spiked heels.

Posted by TomAnon 2004-05-13 10:33:15 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:33:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Fred - please leave Murat's droppings in the thread, so anyone thinking this Piece of Shit can be conversed/dealt with on a human basis is shown the truth

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-13 10:41:21 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:41:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 FWIW I have never EVER previously been Anti American, but you are so out of order at the moment that I currently feel this way. It is based on your actions and approach, so that seems fair. Cause and reaction.

quote >>women deserves to be raped because she is wearing a mini-skirt and spiked heels<<

You best ask your professional soldiers in that prison to answer that; I'm sure they will have the answer on such issues... Maybe ask for the pictures? Good 'ol boys doing it for the good of us all...

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 10:42:49 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:42:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 that link is not work.

Posted by muck4doo 2004-05-13 11:12:06 AM|| [http://www.peta.org/feat/unc/] 2004-05-13 11:12:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Murat, try to bear the burden of the name of proud and brave French general in better way... there is no need to think that this horrible, savage, middle-aged video was faked... produced in Hollywood just like "Terminator".
Cruelty like that is coming from extremists born in another culture, living a totally different life, with a complete disregard for human life, thirst of power and blind faith in Allah.
Neverthless, I agree with you On one point .
That video was surely in the hands of someone since long... Usa administration have used it cinically, letting it pass trough medias at the proper hour to make public forget previous days' infos about tortures made in United states.
But that's war and that's life.
It's slightly hypocrit talkin' about democracy and freedom while using the ancient system called "propaganda"; it's very dangerous to underestimate enemy's power like Rummy did (cause he is too far from arabs' mind - Azcat, you'll never destroy Islam... only millenia can...) sending just 150.000 men on iraqi ground; it's impossible to have freedom, laicity and democracy in iraq, or wherever outside West, just snapping fingers or fanning money on the face of people.
Those are the mistakes America is doing right now.
I really wish, as italian, as Christian, as western man after french revolution, that you're not going to pay these wrong doings too much. And Us with you.

Posted by Mancocapac 2004-05-13 11:26:09 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:26:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Murat -
Although this is admittedly NOT a completely unimpeachable source, let me refer you to:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1134136/posts

over at www.freerepublic.com , which strongly suggests the possibility that the Berg video was edited by about 1:35 to remove a fair amount of the actual murder.
In any event, edited or not, there is still a dead American - flaky or not - whose family grieves him this morning because he was killed by a pack of inhuman monsters. That, sir, is not faked.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-05-13 11:43:10 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:43:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Murat's asking for a fatwa.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-05-13 11:45:25 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:45:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Diesele, let me explain one of the root causes of your anger.

On 9/11 we watched horrified. We were knocked down.

Then we got up, dusted ourselves off, and said simply, "okay, mister, if that's how you want it, that's how you'll get it."

Whereas you (I'm guessing by your name that you're German, please correct me) had thought that we would spend our time asking, "why do they hate us so?" And then contemplate the answer.

We have an answer: they hate us because they adhere to a failed way of life, a failed culture, and a failed religious outlook.

That isn't the answer you Europeans wanted us to come up with. You want us to blame ourselves, not them. And that's about when your sympathy for us (such as it was) evaporated.

Allies are useful to the extent that they are allied. It is clear that the American worldview and the worldview of the European left are incompatible. Blame whoever you want, but one useful thing about the horrible tragedy of 9/11 is that we understand today who are true friends are. And aren't.

And Americans are rather peculiar about friendship. We become truly enraged when friends stab us in the back. I recognize that Europeans might think differently about this, perhaps in your world it's okay for friends to cut deals on the side to hurt you. After all, it's just words, and peace is the most important thing for you, eh?

Not for us. Peace is secondary to honor. We'll fight the terrorists because we know we must to survive. We'll never blame ourselves for what terrorists do. And we'll never, ever trust or admire again those who claim they were our friends but who let us down, who spit on us.

The events post 9/11 have been an epiphany for a number of Americans. We know who our friends are.

You're not one of them.

Posted by Steve White 2004-05-13 12:08:28 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:08:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Steve W - My remark about Mike K in #40 applies to you as well. Thanks.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 12:10:58 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:10:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Nice MuRat. Hit bottom....keep digging. That's right....it's all a CIA plot to put an evil face on peace loving moose-limbs. What a hole.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-13 12:11:03 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:11:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Murat:1985,Muslim terrorists kidnapped and tortured to death the CIA station chief in Beirut,guy named bill buckley.They mailed the videotape to the US State Department.Don't you SEE that Muslims have been using terror for DECADES before the Iraq war?

Posted by WhiteHouseDetox 2004-05-13 12:12:10 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:12:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 I had a thought. Somebody get buddy-buddy with Muridiot. I know it's hard. But for the cause it would be important.

As a good German, (I'm 1/2 German, so I uunderstand the "culture")
he likes the local pub for a good brew. Get him under the influence of a couple of steins of good lager.

Then, see if he will admit what he really thinks: The CIA planted a monitoring device in one of his teeth the last time he had dental work!

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 12:19:00 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:19:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Response to Diesele: I should have been more specific than using the word "terrorists". What I meant was OUR (USA) enemies, Al Qaeda, etc. My view is simpler than that of some here. They attacked us. We need to do whatever it takes to hunt them down and kill them. That involves nasty business. It's the Darwinian law of the jungle. Us or them. I hope you (wherever you are) never have to feel that way, and if we succeed maybe you won't.

Posted by virginian 2004-05-13 1:01:15 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:01:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Murat , even though u are blinded by your stupid outlook on life , please place a blindfold over your head then jump off a very tall building . thanks in advance .

Posted by MacNails 2004-05-13 1:07:02 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:07:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Question for you Diesele. If your nominal "allies" wont help you protect you when you are attacked or need their help in some matter, or worse set themselves actively against you in every arena from the military actions to calling for the removal of your governments elected officials...are they still your "allies"?

Posted by Valentine 2004-05-13 1:09:50 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:09:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Diesele,

You need to educate yourself about the U.S.

Try this article from J.F. Revel:

Contradictions of the Anti-American Obsession

and this article by Walter Russell Mead (published 2 years before 9/11)

The Jacksonian Tradition

Tony Blair understood something your government and Chirac was ignorant of...

Bush wasn't egging us on to war...

He's holding us back.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 1:37:02 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 1:37:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Here's another good article by Mead:

The Case Against Europe-The very things that Europeans think make their political judgment better than Americans' actually make it worse

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 1:41:04 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 1:41:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Money quote from the "Europe" article:

"Americans just don't trust Europe's political judgment. Appeasement is its second nature. Europeans have never met a rulerâHitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Qaddafi, Khomeini, Saddam Husseinâthey didn't think could be softened up by concessions. Europeans tell Americans that in response to September 11 they should deal with the "root causes" of Muslim anger. Jacksonians see this as a call to pay Danegeldâto let the world know that if some people don't like our foreign policy, all they have to do is kill a few thousand American civilians and we will try harder to please them. Europeans think this is statesmanship. Jacksonians think it's pathetic."

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 1:50:33 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 1:50:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 The world is long tired of your might & wealth
Wrong Diesele Jealous is more like it and if anyone else had it, I guarantee they would abuse it beyond belief. How do you think the world would be if the tables were turned and the Arab world had our might and wealth. You'd be dead or on your knees praying to Allan.

Americans are learning to get a backbone again and stop cowering to Old Europe. We really don't need you but you definately need us. Yeah - it wouldn't be as convienent or cute without you but we could definately make things go our way.

Old Europe used to have significance in world events but they wasted it. Now they are only good for Techno music, fashion designs and food. They have little more to offer. Don't tell me they are significant either. You can't even defend or feed yourselves. Why should we be concerned what a country smaller than most of our states thinks anyway? Size does matter in the real world - thats why Old Europe mattered at one time and why they don't now.

Old Europe is slowly morphing into a parasitic society on America just like the Arab world.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-13 1:58:34 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:58:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Anonymous4827,

You are exactly right. It is frightening to see the overt love of fascism (real and expressed by Baathists) and theocratic mass murdering-fanaticism (by the Islamofascists) on the part of Diesele and Murat. If Bush was the intolerant moral equivalent to the jihadis that Diesele is insinuating, he'd be begging for his life and claiming that he "understood" our "anger." The fact that he knows better, that indeed the U.S. is fighting for the good things of Western Civilization, is a sign of his foul moral evil.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-14 10:08:47 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-14 10:08:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Sorry, my bad, I forgot that Diesele was a UK wanker.

Sanctimonious Arnold Rimmer types like D. should get a life.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-14 10:49:14 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-14 10:49:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 I'll revise that:

The United Kingdom sat on its fundament and did nothing while Germany expanded, it did not even support France in 1936 when kicking Hitler out of the Rhineland would have stopped him once and for all.

Diesele wants that same appeasement of fascism today, with the same results.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-14 10:50:59 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-14 10:50:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 "At least it's timing is very welcome to Bush and Rummy, must be coincidence!"

Which is what makes the notion that this video is the doing of Hollywood, utterly laughable. The entire U.S. entertainment industry, including Hollywood and the New York TV establishment, absolutely LOATHES Bush. They would rather saw off their own heads, than do anything that might conceivably help him win re-election.

No, this video shows the true face of Islam by peeling away the layers of deception which mask its essence: hatred, ignorance, and a nihilistic fascination with violent death.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-05-13 8:05:45 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:05:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 You may have a point there Murat,

That question can only be answered in a closely monitored scientific experiment. I propose to take the nearest useless trash (Turks) and perform an elegant experiment. I am sure many volunteers can be found to tie up and saw through Turkish heads, especially among the Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, and it would seem, increasing numbers of Americans.

I think a resonable statistical conclusion can be inferred after this experiment is repeated 50 million times. Only then can the age old question be answered: Are Turks more like chickens and sheep, or monkeys and pigs. Allahu Akbar, MF.

Posted by ed 2004-05-13 8:43:22 AM|| 2004-05-13 8:43:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Murat, there is a lot of blood in the video. The brown mats (mosque rec room?) help to obscure it. Beyond that, what explanation do you have for the body that's coming home in two pieces?

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-05-13 9:24:59 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:24:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 Liberalhawk> thymos (or thumos, my greek is pretty bad)

There's no single specific Greek-Latin transcribing system to my knowledge, and I've seen the Greek letter 'Ypsilon' transcribed as either y or u by different people -- or even by the same people at different points. The main reason for that, I guess, is that the lowercase Greek Y doesn't look like 'y' but like 'u' instead. (and in modern times pronounced like 'i', though in ancient times it was instead pronounced like english 'oo', I believe)

Myself, I think I prefer transcribing it as 'y' when it stands alone, but as 'u' when using it in the two-letter combination 'ou'. But either is ofcourse acceptable.

End of the linguistic ramble. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-13 9:58:14 AM|| 2004-05-13 9:58:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Murat's just upset that one form of his antiamericanism (everything the USA does is fake) has distracted him from the other form: his sexual fantasies of dead Americans.

Same thing happened when the "Kurds" bombed Istanbul. The Kurds just HAD to have done it, not al-Qaeda, despite arrests and claims of responsibility. Even after it was very obvious, it was far too important to Murat to blame the Kurds. Well, Murat, go ahead and blame them all you want--they've a state now, you'll just have to live with that. Now go back to your chicken-choking, if you can.

Aris is quite right: y or u for upsilon except in combination with o. But 'u' is what professional classicists use in all circumstances these days, and since I'm not one, I like 'y'.

Oh, Diesele, whatever will we do without your "sympathy"? People like you were worthless before, and simply proclaiming your worthlesness now changes nothing.

Posted by BMN 2004-05-13 10:10:28 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:10:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 AK - thanks

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-13 10:28:55 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:28:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 BMN - you have hit the nail on the head and again exposed the true nature of how certain Americans really think. You call me 'worthless', and that sums up the world perception of Americans as selfish consumers who are not interested if it does not fit into their egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent ways. I would be mortified if someone said they no longer had any sympathy with me after I had lost thousands of innocent countrymen in a terrorist attack. You dont even care. I think that proves my point in the most clear way possible. I may not be American, but that does not make me worthless. Are you starting to get it? The world is bigger than the USA, and you 'world police' guys are f'in it up for everyone in the name of 'freedom'. How my views have changed - you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day - just like those other terrorists we already abhor...

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 10:31:22 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:31:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 Diesele's "sympathy" = a few empty platitudes immediately post 9-11 (replete with "you had it coming to you" subtext), rapidly followed by a full reversion to pervasive knee-jerk anti-Americanism.

Yeah, we're gonna miss that a lot.

Posted by docob 2004-05-13 10:31:38 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:31:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 MURAT - SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE SAVAGE.
SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR RELIGION.
SILENCE/DENIAL = ACQUIESCENCE

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-05-13 10:38:52 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:38:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day

And what do YOU do, Diesele? Why should I be mortified that your fake sympathy is admitted to be fake? What good was your sympathy anyway? Americans are past the point of pretending "allies" like you are actually allies.

Don't worry, Diesele, the nasty US will be leaving your continent soon. Then all your problems will magically go away. You'll see.

Posted by BMN 2004-05-13 10:42:59 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:42:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 BMN,
No doubt. For my taste, we can't leave fast enough. I am sure all their problems will go away after that. The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris

Let us also minimize contact and trade with them to the absolute minimum.

Diesele, care to tell us where you are from so that we can properly make fun of you?

Posted by ed 2004-05-13 10:51:48 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:51:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 >>Americans are past the point of pretending "allies" like you are actually allies<<

I find that very sad. Allies used to be a good thing...in the past. Our alliance used to work well for both, until one got way too big for his boots. Insular; alone. Not good words...historically. Count your guns and dig on in.

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 10:54:22 AM|| 2004-05-13 10:54:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 I really shouldnt tell you, but I'm from the UK (gets sucked into immediate pigeonhole...whoooshhhh). And dont begrudge the eventual WW2 support now - you really were the decent good guys back then. Proper allies - like the still decent Canadians and Poles that helped us out too...

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 11:01:18 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:01:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#51 Hey guys leave those swear word, let's face the facts here, you are the ones occupying Iraq and not vice versa. Don't play that crap of victims.
If that beheading is real, it's inhumane and the perpetraters deserve hell. However two points are not clear, the men on the background have covered faces, you can't see whether they are Arabs or CIA, secondly Al Zarkawi or whatever the name of that fuck is a Jordanian is pointed as being behind it.

So don't play the victim, Iraq and Iraqies are the victim, America as occupier is the agressor, period.

Posted by Murat 2004-05-13 11:04:45 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:04:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 Here's what Diesele and Murat have in common: the Berg beheading reminds them of how evil America is.

Posted by BMN 2004-05-13 11:09:24 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:09:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#53 #30

Someday you will regret those words Diesele...

Naive
better dead than muslim. F**k them all.

Posted by Naive 2004-05-13 11:19:36 AM|| 2004-05-13 11:19:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#54 Intelligent comment Mike - nice to see here.

Naive in #30 - was that some kind of a threat? Another big bully boy style threat? The world is long tired of your might & wealth and its application in bullying others. You need to get people ON SIDE with words and deeds; this policy of threats & invasions is blowing up in your faces. Not all will ever agree or toe your line or do what pleases your interests best...particularly all those funny foreigners.

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 12:01:25 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:01:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Mike K - Thank you for responding to Muridiot in #32 unequivically, and so clearly.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 12:04:29 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:04:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Diesele --

When all you "funny foreigners" are being measured for your burkas, you'll come screaming to us for help. Don't get upset when we say, "told you so."

Posted by Infidel Bob 2004-05-13 12:11:39 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:11:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Diesele is the one throwing the bombs. Bully boys my ass. Romans were bully boys, Nazi were bully boys, NVN commies were bully boys, Chinese commies, baathist thugs, jihadie cut-throats, Talabanies, South American drug cartels, Japanese bushidos. Bullies all pointy head.

BTW, do your roommates have the same memory lapse as you?

Posted by Lucky 2004-05-13 12:39:46 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:39:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this video. "But there's an 11-hour gap in the time stamp!" And such.

But I'm sure the video is real and Berg was decapitated. It's more than likely, however, that he wasn't killed on tape. Like in the case of Daniel Pearlthe cameraman screwed up. He missed the "money shot" and so the killers had to reenact the murder.

Posted by growler 2004-05-13 12:42:29 PM|| 2004-05-13 12:42:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 As more and more members of the senate open their mouths and spew appeasment, it is clear to me that those five masked cowards who butchered Mr Berg could be stand-ins for any 5 Democrat Senators except Miller or Lieberman, not just the 5 I mentioned yesterday. Anybody has another Dem to exempt? Anybody hear from Bayh or Ben Nelson of NEBRASKA? They have shown some sense in the past.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-13 1:03:26 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:03:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 I must correct myself. There is no gap in the tape. It's two tapes edited together. See the full explanation here:

http://www.truth-teller.com/000041.html

Posted by growler 2004-05-13 1:15:20 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:15:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Manco:
That video was surely in the hands of someone since long... Usa administration have used it cinically, letting it pass trough medias at the proper hour to make public forget previous days' infos about tortures made in United states.

There is no evidence to support that assertion. The video first appeared on a jihadi website operated, I believe, out of Egypt.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-13 1:16:39 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-13 1:16:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Mancocapac--

Un po' di dietrologia? Sicuramente italiano. Purtroppo, e veramente ci dispiace, ma voi italiani e difatti voi europei, state per pagare comunque. Sei stato mai in Tor' Bella Monaca a Roma?

Posted by BMN 2004-05-13 1:28:45 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:28:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 "Allies used to be a good thing"

I think we are seeing a cultural difference. French/German and to some degree English view allies in a different context from the US.

In the US, we stand by our allies whether they are weak or strong, because they are our allies (ie Israel) The long term benefit is that we get to understand who will honor and who won't honor their alliances (which is why we pee on the french)

Europeans look at the practical matter of whether an ally can benefit them, usually through strength or weakness of the ally.

The short term gives the Europeans an advantage here, but in terms of US culture, you arent allies at all - from our viewpoint, you have violated the alliance, and that will take decades to recover if it ever does.

Alternately we may use you in your own terms, you are weak and by the way you play the game, you only get symbolic say in anything, and we will ignore you as it pleases us. We can do that because we understand your culture lmao...

Posted by flash91 2004-05-13 1:47:09 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:47:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Steve White â at least some introspection and self analysis from your side of the pond! Really good to read that lucid post.

The other posts remain arrogant and mule stubborn unfortunately â I find it scary that people post SO the wrong sentiments here, and do it so openly. These sentiments chill many of us previously supportive Europeans (not that you give a hoot...of course). Most of you gung-hoâs wont ever understand that âstep-backâ from us though â there is the rub. The gulf; the new chasm between us, sad as it is. Steve sees it though (thank God!)

Do me a favour, kindly drop the âheâs a Germanâ xenophobic trip regarding me. Some of you are, err, silly enough to miss my post stating Iâm from the UK. And NO I do not blindly support previous âbest matesâ WHEN THEY ARE TOTALLY WRONG! An allegiance is not about that â although you again try to bully and demand it as your RIGHT!

The most naive and dangerous thing that simple idiot Bush has said was âyou are either with us or against usâ. So many of you here seem to lap that statement up, beat your chests but do not even realise that this was the most simplistic and undiplomatic thing to say. Childish almost. Consider the possibility that there are a thousand viewpoints in-between on the matter - you may then once again be able to start thinking about communicating with the world without the violence.

Thatâs my last post (as I have tons of work to do!!!).

PS. Ernest I promise to read that article next as I dont like feeling this way towards you lot after all! I could also be wrong or misguided in these views - I think it good we should ALL consider that possibility, particularly if people are dying and the world seems to be in a downward decaying spiral...

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-13 1:48:13 PM|| 2004-05-13 1:48:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Diesele,

Here's a blog where Germans and Americans discuss these subjects:

Davids Medienkritik

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 1:56:48 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 1:56:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Bush wasn't egging us on to war...

He's holding us back

Absolutely true. God help us all if the current approach fails ... the gloves really will come off then.

I will be damned if I'll wear a burqa, or if I will stand by and let murderous Islamacists or any other brand of murderous thug hijack my society and the things I hold dear.

I hold my life dear, but not as dear as my honor and the future of younger generations.

Posted by True, true 2004-05-13 2:17:25 PM|| 2004-05-13 2:17:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 The most naive and dangerous thing that simple idiot Bush has said was âyou are either with us or against usâ. So many of you here seem to lap that statement up, beat your chests but do not even realise that this was the most simplistic and undiplomatic thing to say. Childish almost. Consider the possibility that there are a thousand viewpoints in-between on the matter - you may then once again be able to start thinking about communicating with the world without the violence.

So where do we compromise with people who want to enslave or kill us all? How do you negotiate with that? What's the "in-between" viewpoint?

Do we let them just enslave/kill some of us? Or do we negotiate around the level of enslavement?

Face it, just because it's "simplistic" doesn't make it wrong. Hell, in this case "simplistic" is almost certainly correct.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-13 2:57:34 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-05-13 2:57:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Quote from some dumbass in the UK: Proper allies - like the still decent Canadians and Poles

Funny you should say that. I'm a Canadian, born in Poland, yet I disagree with you on everything you said. Am I still a decent, proper ally???

you are making yourself my enemy more and more each day

And you, mine. Now go appease some dictator at the UN. You have plenty to choose from.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-13 3:00:00 PM|| 2004-05-13 3:00:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 Iraq was a dictatorship. Saddam didn't speak for the Iraqi people he brutally subjicated them. To hear Murat and Diesel talk it sounds as if Iraq was Sweden with oil.

Dictatorships should be overthrown. Power to the people baby.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-05-13 5:09:06 PM|| 2004-05-13 5:09:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Diesele,

Thanks, you may have noticed some of the posters here calling themselves "Jacksonians." This is explained in the article "THE JACKSONIAN TRADITION."

The four basic foreign policy traditions, according to Mead, are named after famous American statesmen.

Wilsonianism-This one is easy, named after Woodrow Wilson. It is the school that stresses that the most important thing for the U.S. to do is to promote international law and order through multilateral agreements, even at the cost of direct U.S. liberties and interests. Most current U.S. State Department careerists are Wilsonian.

HAMILTONIANS: Hamiltonians (after the first American Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton) believe in multilateralism also, but of a mercantile kind that promotes American trade and commerce. They also believe in strong Federal spending on infrastructure and defense to protect said interests. Dick Cheney and the classical stance of the Republican Party is Hamiltonian.

JEFFERSONIAN: (after the third U.S. President, Thomas Jefferson). Jeffersonians stress the importance of ownership of land and the virtue of work. In foreign policy, while they will go for surgical strikes against enemies (see the Barbary Coast wars of 1805 and 1815, even then the U.S. fought against Islamic lawlessness) they generally abhor extended conflict and advocate diplomacy and economic sanctions of enemies. As President, Jimmy Carter was the last real Jeffersonian. (after his presidency, he became a pacifistic Wilsonian)

And then there is Jacksonianism, the folk culture of the U.S. ...
Jacksonianism is not simply a school of foreign policy, in many ways it is a way of life for us. Read the article! (g) (There is one mistake there, Jackson was the 7th, not the 6th, president)

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-13 10:19:57 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-13 10:19:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Diesele,

Wow, I am amazed at your posts ...

You chose this thread, about this horrible decapitation of an innocent civilian to express your views that Americans are childish, selfish, egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent and arrogant - and need to step back and have some introspection.

No where do you mention the topic of the thread, the decapitation! Except in sligh comments that only seem to be meant as an attack.

Your hypocrisy is astounding ... in a thread about the killing of an innocent human (and the possibility that it was far more barbaric than first thought) you never mention this, but instead lash out at America and Americans while telling them that they need to step back and think about things.

I hate to tell you this, but your posts and tone â¦ your approach, in this thread, are clearly some of the most egotistical, self interested, self obsessed, self indulgent and arrogant I have ever seen.

I believe you are in need of a step back and introspection. Think over your tone and approach in this thread, your anger and utter disregard for a human innocent, all the while telling Americans that the behavior you exhibit is what is wrong with them â hypocrisy!

Posted by Anonymous4827 2004-05-14 12:03:37 AM|| 2004-05-14 12:03:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#72 [Ernest that article is indeed insightful. So accurate that I was chuckling, which I felt rather inappropriate! It understands that we fear bible bashing presidents as much as the self flaggelating peasants!!! We seemingly ask âwhatâs upâ, whilst âJacksoniansâ yell âget downâ. We should ALL read it. PS what is a "red" state and I wish I knew of Barney Fife!]

Back to comment on previous replies -

I am looking beyond the horrendous death of that poor man. Forgive me, but I am concerned more with the state of the world than the state of the individual that refused to leave. His death was revenge for US soldiers killing POWâs and bragging about it â the âcivilisedâ ruled by the Geneva convention setting dogs on POWâs, electrocuting them, killing them and icing the bodies to cover up etc etc. Everything Saddam did repeated by a section of the brave altruistic âfreedomâ givers. In fact, were my country ever invaded, I too hope that my countrymen would carry out such acts of dreadful violence against any foreign invader that was torturing me and killing civilians/POWâs behind closed doors, Note that Nick Bergâs callous slaughter was a RESPONSE; that kind of thing wasnât happening 6 months ago; consider some culpability in this depravity???

As for hypocrisy in me??? Absurd; see above. See tacit sanctioning of state terrorism by Israel â THAT is more like hypocrisy by those driven by selective application of the values of âfreedomâ & âdemocracyâ... It is also terrifying that the same person finds me âself-obsessedâ and âself-indulgentâ in these post that are essentially in defence of others that I perceive to be wronged, and those that will be wronged in future under current US rage & might. Those wrong assumptions of position and perceptions are so scary to an âoutsiderâ â especially one that has only just recently walked out of the room...

Bush and Blair should get on their hands and knees and plead for the UN to appoint an Islamic administration to sort out the mess in Iraq. You should again go home with your tail between your legs as in Vietnam. HOW MANY TIMES will you get away with murder? History repeatedly proves your arrogance and errors yet you all sit here saying âwe donât care what you thinkâ; âyou are old world orderâ; âyou Europeans have no backboneâ; âwe demand your blind support in all we doâ; âyou need our guns buddyâ. Have you still really no idea why the backlash & why so many are newly anti your values and your behaviour? Your hurt and anger and kicking out at me (for one) is because I and millions of others were already perceiving those sentiments and ways of thinking in you â YOU DONT GIVE A STUFF about us as rational thinking non US individuals, particularly the SECOND we start disagreeing with you, or suggesting caution. Thatâs not friendship or allegiance; thatâs a form of tyranny and so many postings here have made that patently, sadly obvious. Can you SEE why that puts us off you? Can you see we think you are out of control again? Did you see Rumsfeld grinning at the troops yesterday â does it GET much more insensitive than that at this moment? This will cost Blair his âpresidencyâ in the UK such is the embarrassment and disillusionment felt here. But then I clearly know you DONâT CARE about such external matters â so WE need to start caring â much to your disgust and developing hatred for us...

There has been enough systematic humiliation of Arabs by the US & Israel; I do not want another Nick Berg or another 9/11 (where I lost 3 friends). ONLY YOU CAN STOP THAT, if you have the will and the nous.

I really feel I have said what I need to say and will not antagonise you further here.

Good luck in your new world my old friends.

Posted by Diesele 2004-05-14 7:41:15 AM|| 2004-05-14 7:41:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#73 Diesele,

Yes, you're more afraid of decent human beings with a basic system of morality than you are of thugs like Hitler, Stalin and Saddam. Tell us something we do not know.

That "systematic humiliation" (in reality, self-defense) was the result of your country's mass murder of the Jews and the Arab/Palestinian collaboration with same. Thanks for showing your true anti-Semetic and genocidal colors. Was Daniel Pearl beheaded for Abu Ghraib? No, it is because he was a Jew, like Berg. We are well aware of the hatred that you have always felt towards that confession, and the spectacle of a citizen of the nation that spawned the worst monsters in human history (save Stalin and his boys) lecturing -us- on international morality is disgusting, to say the least.

We caught and punished those responsible for the prison mess, you couldn't even do that to the Nazis without our help. (and, save for a few Germans that hadn't castrated away their humanity, you didn't want to)

Posted by Ernest Brown 2004-05-14 9:38:41 AM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2004-05-14 9:38:41 AM|| Front Page Top

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