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2004-06-03 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Frank G 2004-06-03 10:35|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 If true, then possibly the best news I've heard since the capture of Saddam.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 10:40:34 AM|| 2004-06-03 10:40:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Where have you been, Aris? Putting in some overtime building those stadiums?

Posted by Raj 2004-06-03 12:53:21 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com] 2004-06-03 12:53:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Have to agree w/Aris,tho maybe for differ reasons.Under Tenet's "leadership" the CIA screwed up royally.Given Bush's refusal to fire him previously,timing now is one of three things:

1)Chalabi mess claimed him

2)Committee on 9-11 is going to single him out as fall guy

3)It's time for him to go work for Kerry.

Posted by Stephen 2004-06-03 3:51:12 PM|| 2004-06-03 3:51:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Katsaris shouldn't be so pleased...Tenet was one of our finest Americans of Greek heritage!
And AK has said twice that he wasn't gonna post here anymore.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 3:55:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 3:55:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Tenet was one of our finest Americans of Greek heritage!

And if I was a nationalist, to think that the actions of others reflect on me merely because of common heritage, I'd be ashamed of him.

The Chalabi mess alone would be worth his resignation even if he had had an exemplary record before that- and he most definitely didn't.

He should have been "resigned" a long time ago.

And AK has said twice that he wasn't gonna post here anymore.

Unfortunately I don't seem to have the discipline not to comment on things that interest me. Bad of me. Will have to work on that.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 5:05:11 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:05:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Katsaris, you and your fix on nationalism being the source of all Evil...too funny!

As for the "Chalabi mess," I'm still not sure what that's about, if anything, except a way for the State Department to bite back at the Pentagon which is par for the course in the Beltway right now.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 5:07:11 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 5:07:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Katsaris, you and your fix on nationalism being the source of all Evil...too funny!

Just one third of all evil. Racism is another third, and religious fanaticism the last third.

I'm placing the Stalinist/Maoist/etc fanatics under the "religious fanaticism" category.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 5:16:12 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:16:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 , except a way for the State Department to bite back at the Pentagon which is par for the course in the Beltway right now.

Really??

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 5:37:48 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:37:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Really.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 5:38:41 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 5:38:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Wow, thanks for the info.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 5:40:51 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:40:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 It's about time, although no rational person can really accept his 'personal reasons' excuse, along with the usual 'needing to spend more time with my family' palaver. Remember the 'slam dunk' statement and who (or whose department) made it. And Tenet sat right behind the Secretary of State when Powell made the speech to the UN...
Powell has now publicly stated that the information he was provided was "inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading. And for that I am disappointed, and I regret it." Well, everyone should damn well regret it and this information was provided by the department under Tenet's direct supervision. Everyone should be tired of 'leaders' who say things like "This incident happened on my watch, and I take full responsibility" and then do nothing and take no personal responsibility, except perhaps promising to 'fully investigate the matter' and appoint committees to look into the issue.
Metaphor: if a US capital ship ran aground and was seriously damaged -- even in the middle of the night when the captain of said ship was abed -- what do you think would happen to the captain? The pious 'happened on my watch' statements would never even be made because these would be a given, and the captain would find his career over.

Posted by BK 2004-06-03 5:47:30 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:47:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 AK go ahead and post here.

Of course you can be a nationalist without identifying yourself with people of the same national descent. Tenet is NOT a citizen of Greece. Perhaps im getting into the distinction (made by John Lukacs) between "nationalism" and "patriotism" I sense of loyalty to, and responsibility for, the political entity of which one is a citizen, seems to me essential to democracy. This is different from chest beating.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 5:53:00 PM|| 2004-06-03 5:53:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "...[a] sense of loyalty to, and responsibility for, the political entity of which one is a citizen, seems to me essential to democracy. "
Nope. According to AK, that's nationalistic, too, and must be stamped out!
Good try at trying to look like everybody's pal that's to the Left of most RBers.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 5:58:47 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 5:58:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I like having diverse opinions here Jen. I think Fred does too.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-06-03 6:06:58 PM|| 2004-06-03 6:06:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Nope. According to AK, that's nationalistic, too, and must be stamped out

Actually, no. Don't try to interpret my sayings, Jen, you always, ALWAYS get it wrong.

Liberalhawk> between "nationalism" and "patriotism"

The two qualities are orthogonal. Nationalism is an ideology -- patriotism a virtue. The one signifies what one considers the primary building block one must base one's political thoughts around (the same way that communists treat the class, and racists the race, so do many nationalists treat the nation). Patriotism on the other hand is about the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the good of the many.

Nationalism needs other nations in order to define itself -- same way that racism needs more than one race and believe in the fight-of-the-classes believe in the existence of more than one class. Patriotism doesn't need anything external.

To put it simply, patriotism is altruistic and nationalism is selfish: but instead of the individual self it substitutes the "Greater Self" of the nation instead.

I sense of loyalty to, and responsibility for, the political entity of which one is a citizen, seems to me essential to democracy

Aye. Though I'd have said "responsibility to", actually. I'm not responsible *for* anything but my own vote/actions/opinions, but I have a responsibility *to* my country and community.

Not certain if my English is good enough in this -- I hope I've made the distinction adequately.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 6:19:32 PM|| 2004-06-03 6:19:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "I hope I've made the distinction adequately."
Naturally, you haven't.
When we're being patriotic, you accuse of being nationalistic.
It's all semantics to me and Greek to you.
And then what you say is Greek to most of us.
So there.
If you're the least bit patriotic to Greece, get off your butt and make yourself be responsible for getting those Olympics on track!
Neither the security nor the venues are ready to go.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 6:23:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 6:23:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 When we're being patriotic, you accuse of being nationalistic.

With the exception of those veterans here who've risked life and limb for their country, I have no evidence any of the rest of you has been "patriotic".

Someone isn't being "patriotic" through mere words that cost him/her nothing, Jen. "Patriot" is a compliment to be awarded to you by *others* if you prove worthy of it.

Usually by dying.

So, don't be so immodest as to call *yourself* a patriot, Jen. Just say that you try to be a patriot, and that's enough.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 6:29:12 PM|| 2004-06-03 6:29:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Oh, I am indeed a patriot.
And while you may demean and smear my participation in the war effort, I consider my blog (and to a certain extent my participation here) to be a contribution to the war of memes, hearts and minds that is being waged on in the information front.
I'm too old to suit up and join the military, so it's the best I can do for my country.
That and contribute my vote and my money to the Bush Administration, the GOP and our military.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 6:34:17 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 6:34:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 And while you may demean and smear my participation in the war effort, I consider my blog (and to a certain extent my participation here) to be a contribution to the war of memes, hearts and minds that is being waged on in the information front.

And so do I my own contribution. But frankly unless we're in a position where we're actually endangered or HEAVILY inconvenienced because of these actions of ours, we can't know whether we are here because we're patriots or because we are just doing what we desire to do.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 6:50:37 PM|| 2004-06-03 6:50:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm here because I'm a patriot.
And I am heavily "inconvenienced"--the blog takes up a good part of my time and my life and has for the last 2 years.
There are a million other things I could be doing.
But my country was attacked, 3000 of her citizens were slaughtered in peacetime and we are now at war with Islamist terrorism on several fronts.
So I devote my mind and my computer and my pocketbook to backing my country and my President and to fight this war.
As for "endangered," I've experienced some of that, too, but I won't go into the details.
There is always a price to pay for making a stand.
If you think I do it for fun, you're crazier than I thought.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 6:56:51 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 6:56:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Jen, you are getting close to a parody.

Posted by Harpi 2004-06-03 7:28:35 PM|| 2004-06-03 7:28:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Call it what you like, my personal troll Harpi.
I'm quite serious and am exaggerating nothing.
BTW, "harpy" is spelled with a "y" properly.

Posted by Jen 2004-06-03 7:34:15 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-03 7:34:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I'm not usually doing that but I'd call myself a German patriot, in the sense of someone who is deeply rooted in his country, is proud of its achievements, laments its failures and strives to make it better: all this without ever looking down on any other nation, American or Albanian. A nationalist always defines the "supremacy" of his country with the "inferiority" of others.
My father, who took part in the July 20th conspiracy to save Germany was called a "traitor" then (and well into the 1950s), yet he considered himself a patriot, and rightfully so. A patriot is not necessarily someone who waves a flag or puts the biggest bumper sticker on his car.
I remember June 6th 1944, when my father quietly celebrated the news with us, that the invasion had started. Quietly, because we all knew that many Germans would die and our country would face defeat. But he knew that this defeat was necessary for the survival of the Germany he believed in.
And he was right. Without the invasion, not even the Rhine would have stopped Stalin's army and not only Germany's, but Europe's future would have looked bleak.
In his way he was absolutely loyal to his country although he knew that people would not thank him for that.
That's what I call a real patriot.
It's easy to be proud of your country when it's in the right.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-06-03 8:30:00 PM|| 2004-06-03 8:30:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I hope your father survived the subsequent retaliation and the war. Perhaps we have been conversing with a Canaris, Beck or even a Stauffenberg? If not, my hat is off nonetheless.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-06-03 9:35:08 PM|| 2004-06-03 9:35:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 None of these names. Many other people were involved in July 20th. And were killed quietly.
And no, he didn't survive it.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-06-03 10:13:24 PM|| 2004-06-03 10:13:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 It is 60 years late and perhaps meaningless from a stranger, but you have my condolences.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-06-03 10:48:37 PM|| 2004-06-03 10:48:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 My condolences also.

I remember a few years ago when in a discussion in a Greek forum I had referred to those same Germans who had conspired against Hitler as examples of true patriots -- back then I hadn't imagined I'd ever know any of their relatives.

And thank you btw for bringing a new and meaningful perspective to so many of the discussions here.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-03 11:31:24 PM|| 2004-06-03 11:31:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Aris, your three thirds don't really account for the following examples of other sources for evil: Lust for Personal Power (I sincerely doubt that Sadaam was really a nationalist,) Lust for Sex (unless you consider a rapist or a pedophile to be a religious fanatic and pure dementia (there is a psychotic side to Sadaam that lust for power doesn't cover - he was writing bad novels as the invasion swallowed him.) I don't know how to characterize the Honor Killing but it has more to do with personal pride than with any religion.

As for patriotism and heroism, True German Ally has distilled its essence - a selfless willingness to make a personal sacrifice so the benefit of your society or team. Actually, I think Tenet's service has been pretty selfless. His effectiveness is certainly open to debate, but I don't question his commitment. I wish he and his family the best.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-06-04 1:02:04 AM|| 2004-06-04 1:02:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Dear Aris:

Please do stick around at Rantburg if possible. I actually look for your posts to read. Sometimes we disagree, but I find your opinion valuable and you often make me think. I appreciate this.

Best Wishes,

Posted by Traveller 2004-06-04 4:41:49 AM|| 2004-06-04 4:41:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Super Hose> The "three thirds" were more off an automatic response to Jen, not a long-thought out answer. But even with the excuse of a fast response, I was thinking more of evil-doing ideologies, not about all forms of evil worldwide from child-neglect to bank-robberies to abusive parents to rapists. Those clearly don't apply.

Obviously not *all* crimes can be attributed to the forms of tribalism I mentioned -- it's just that usually those crimes that cause great masses of people to follow them do.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-06-04 8:35:25 AM|| 2004-06-04 8:35:25 AM|| Front Page Top

13:16 Liberalhawk
13:01 Anonymous5228
08:35 Aris Katsaris
07:38 Raptor
04:55 Super Hose
04:41 Traveller
02:51 Mike Sylwester
02:11 Guest
01:36 Mike Sylwester
01:02 Super Hose
00:27 Anonymous2U
00:07 Darth VAda
23:39 Scooter McGruder
23:34 Super Hose
23:31 Aris Katsaris
23:29 Super Hose
23:22 CrazyFool
23:21 Super Hose
23:16 Barbara Skolaut
23:12 Halfass Pete
23:00 Barbara Skolaut
22:57 RWV
22:56 Lucky
22:48 Zpaz