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2004-09-03 Caucasus
Over 400 Casualties in North Ossetia Taken to Hospitals
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Posted by Fred 2004-09-03 2:15:13 PM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Putin, I don't trust you further than I could throw you, but on this one, I support whatever you have in mind. And I hope it's something deviously creative. This is the ideological Elbe.
Posted by Matt 2004-09-03 2:29:54 PM||   2004-09-03 2:29:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 What's gonna happen will be that the Russers will retaliate against the Chechens, at which point all the pinheads in the world will howl about their brutality.
Posted by Fred  2004-09-03 2:39:33 PM||   2004-09-03 2:39:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Works for me.
Posted by Matt 2004-09-03 2:40:56 PM||   2004-09-03 2:40:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Let them do something effective, off Basayev, or or follow the trail beyond the borders of Russia. If all they do is level more of Grozhny, with tactics that take no regard for civilian life, I wont howl, but i sure wont get mad at the pinheads - when Russia continues to take the pinhead line toward Israelis whose tactics at their worst arent one one hundreth as harsh as those of the Russians.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 2:44:06 PM||   2004-09-03 2:44:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Help the Russians, now. Retrain and reform their military. Pay them whatever sum they need to cease all support and aid to Iran. Time to get serious about helpnig the only nations that can seriously help us destroy the jihadists: Russia India and Turkey.

New century, new threat, new strategy and alliance system needed. Old Europe cannot help or harm us. Look east, Americans.
Posted by lex 2004-09-03 2:44:07 PM||   2004-09-03 2:44:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 "...at which point all the pinheads in the world will howl about their brutality."

I think after today there are a lot fewer pinheads in the world. This glimpse of hell will have opened quite a few eyes and minds to the truth of Islamic terrorism. It'll be much harder for people to blame America any more. And a lot of those who do will find their audience walking away in disgust. Whatever the crimes Russia's been guilty of in Chechnya are irrelevant. A major watershed for public opinion, IMO.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-09-03 2:47:19 PM||   2004-09-03 2:47:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 lex, include Israel. They have a lot they could give the organization.
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-09-03 2:49:36 PM||   2004-09-03 2:49:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Only if it's shown to the public. The MSM will bury it with Kerry's speech and Clinton's coronary here.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-03 2:50:27 PM||   2004-09-03 2:50:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 lex, I do wish you'd stop banging on about your new axis. Russia, India and Turkey - fair enough. But why on earth do you seem intent on alienating the Anglosphere and that half of Europe which has supported the US in the last few years? Not to mention Japan. America has friends the world over in this fight. Maybe you've been listening to John 'we ain't got no mates' Kerry (who is a fuckwit).
Posted by Bulldog  2004-09-03 2:51:10 PM||   2004-09-03 2:51:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Oh yes, and Israel.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-09-03 2:51:52 PM||   2004-09-03 2:51:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 who thinks the next time there is a UN resolution condemning Israel for actions in Gaza that pale beside what the Russians have done in Chechnya, that Russia will veto it? Or even abstain? This is not to justifiy one iota the actions of the jihadi murderers, who all deserve to die a painful death, or to deny that US cooperation with Russia is a good idea - but I have a hard time lumping in those who criticize Russia on human rights with those who criticize the US, UK, and Israel. Being the victim of terrorism DOESNT justify anything, especially to a government that is so hypocritical in condemning the far milder actions of other terror victims.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 2:55:55 PM||   2004-09-03 2:55:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Lh - if you're responding to me, I meant Russian crimes are irrelevant to public opinion. Not irrelevant full stop. Period. Whatever. Hopefully the Russians will accept Western military help in the Caucasus and in return be receptive to employing such novel Western notions as genuine democracy, rudimantary justice and discriminate slaughter there.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-09-03 3:01:59 PM||   2004-09-03 3:01:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 BD - i was more responding to Fred in #2. I have full sympathy for the Russian people, and full desire to see the guilty slaughtered. I have a little problem with the equation of criticism of Putin and his tactics with those who criticize the tactics of the US, UK and Israel.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:23:28 PM||   2004-09-03 3:23:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 lex you're on target. Not only the countries you mentioned, but the rest of the former Eastern Bloc, while not militarily powerful, have mostly embraced free-market reforms, flat taxes, and are working on reforms to make them MUCH closer to American ideals than any of the socialist swine in West Europe.

I would be proud to call them allies long before I would EVER trust a frenchman again.

Putin: Make them pay. We are with you.
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 3:27:45 PM||   2004-09-03 3:27:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 I don't know if lex has been banging that same point, Bulldog, but the way I read it is that we should get behind the new powers and obviously stick with "old" allies like Japan and the (few) West Euro nations who still have their heads on straight. I certainly don't think it's a good idea to shun our Coalition allies in any way, and I assume lex thinks the same.
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 3:32:03 PM||   2004-09-03 3:32:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I have a hard time lumping in those who criticize Russia on human rights with those who criticize the US, UK, and Israel. Being the victim of terrorism DOESNT justify anything, especially to a government that is so hypocritical in condemning the far milder actions of other terror victims.

Not sure what to make of this-would you mind rephrasing this LH? I don't get your meaning.
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 3:34:34 PM||   2004-09-03 3:34:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 have mostly embraced free-market reforms, flat taxes, and are working on reforms to make them MUCH closer to American ideals than any of the socialist swine in West Europe.

there you have it Bulldog, Putin may have been on Saddams payroll and may have helped the French do us in in Iraq, and is still pulling against us from the sidelines while Brits fight and die in Basra, and Russia may be selling nuke techology to the Iranians, and may blatantly hypocritical on Israel, but dammit, Blairs a SOCIALIST doncha know? I mean supporting some kind of progressive taxation, and using all that social justice rhetoric DOES make him a socialist right, even if the real left despises him for his third way policies. Hell even the right in Europe accepts having national health insurance, and that makes them like practically commie, dont it? Didnt Lenin say, first health insurance, then the world? I mean in Russia, you get sick, you stay sick, and isnt that more important than a pro-democracy foreign policy?


Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:35:08 PM||   2004-09-03 3:35:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Bulldog, no harm meant to our Anglosphere friends and to the Poles-- my apologies. And of course Israel is central to this approach. Israel is already stepping up its military cooperation with both India and Turkey.

But you're dead wrong about the Spaniards, who are probably (after the Greeks) the most virulently anti-American nation in Europe, and the Italians as well. We should not confuse the bravery of an Aznar with support that is forged either in deep cultural and political sympathy or else cold convergence of interests.

There is no reason to think that postmodern, Israelophobic, rapidly aging continental Euros in Spain or Italy or anywhere else west of the Elbe will rally to our cause. There is every reason to think that clever and diligent diplomacy, supported by every carrot we can provide, will convince a generation of hardheaded, realpolitiker elites in Turkey, India and Russia to work closely with us to crush the jihadists.

Our interests are solidly aligned in this regard, and of course we have far more to offer them-- not just militarily but commercially and, if we're clever about it, politically-- than the Iranians or the Chinese.

This is a different century and we need a much more radical and creative approach to our alliance strategy. Rumsfeld and Bush have done a good job so far in managing relations w RU China Japan and India; in his second term, Bush needs to take this Asia-centricism to the next level.
Posted by lex 2004-09-03 3:36:34 PM||   2004-09-03 3:36:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 jules -

heres what fred said

What's gonna happen will be that the Russers will retaliate against the Chechens, at which point all the pinheads in the world will howl about their brutality

So complaining about brutal russian tactics makes one a pinhead. Yet the Russian govt supports complaints about far milder Israeli tactics - this makes the Russian govt into what? Not just pinheads, but hypocritical pinheads at that.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:37:36 PM||   2004-09-03 3:37:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 You're losing me, LH. you're all over the place with that one
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 3:37:55 PM||   2004-09-03 3:37:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Simple answer. MOAB on Downtown Grozny.
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-03 3:40:12 PM||   2004-09-03 3:40:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I think LH has a point here; this horror doesn't get a free pass to russians. Chechnya is already pretty much crushed by now; mindless reaction which only add to the misery of the people will only add to the problem.
Putin has better fix his army, intelligence, and embark on an israeli-type campaign of internal (logistical support in criminal gangs & marketplaces held by caucasians) and foreign (funders, trainers) eliminations, even if it means walking on the feet of the western countries, and setting his priorities straight re Israel, Iran the USa,...
Posted by Anonymous5089 2004-09-03 3:52:42 PM||   2004-09-03 3:52:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Thanks, LH, for the clarification.

If it happens at least the world will no longer have an excuse for equating torture, humiliation, and miserable conditions. I am tired of sloppy, hysterical, hyperbolic accusations being thrown at our country, and being averted for describing others.
Posted by jules 187 2004-09-03 3:53:39 PM||   2004-09-03 3:53:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 US dept of State:

Although the Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens in some areas, its human rights record worsened in a few areas. The Government's record remained poor in the continuing struggle with separatists in Chechnya, where federal security forces demonstrated little respect for basic human rights. There were credible reports of serious violations, including numerous reports of unlawful killings, and of abuse of civilians by both the Government and Chechen fighters in the Chechen conflict. There were reports of both government and rebel involvement in politically motivated disappearances in Chechnya. Parliamentary elections held on December 7 failed to meet international standards, although the voting process was technically well run. Criminal charges and threats of arrest or actual arrest against major financial supporters of opposition parties, and seizure of party materials from opposition parties, undermined the parties' ability to compete.


so the US State dept is run by pinheads as well?

Jules, and Chris, I dont see whats so complicated. Deliberately murdering ordinary people (NOT just head honchos), running amok like the Russkies have done in Chechnya, IS wrong
and DOES increase terrorism. There is a knee jerk response that says the euros criticize Israel on human rights, they criticize the US on human rights,and the criticize Russia on human rights - ergo they must as wrong in criticizing Russia as they are in criticizing the US and Israel. Which is not the case, the IDF doesnt do all the shit the Russians do - what the Russians do in Chechnya is what the West Bank WOULD look like if the Israelis were what they are (falsely) accused of being. Some here would LIKE the Israelis and the Americans to be more like the Russians. Which is an arguement I could understand - except that the Russians DONT allow the US and Israel the same leeway they allow themselves. They can murder civilians in Chechnya, but when Israel builds a wall to protect themselves they are the FIRST to join the Euros in condemning Israel.

Look - the other day I pointed out our many muslim allies - and somebody said theyre not COMMITTED to antiterrorism, theyre just pursuing their own local interests. Well ive got news - no matter how many muslims the Spetnaz kill in Chechnya, the Russians aint committed to antiterrorism either, any more than the French - theyre only commited to their OWN national interests.

In 18 the point i was making was that many of those who will give Putin a break they wont give to the euros are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with foreign policy - its all about their dislike for certain economic and social policies in europe.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 3:54:23 PM||   2004-09-03 3:54:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 "...but dammit, Blairs a SOCIALIST doncha know?..."

Lh, let it all out! ;) Seriously, Blair's middle of the road in terms of British domestic policy. All that stuff about him stealing Tory clothes is true - it's what won him his first election, and has kept him in power. That includes tolerating limited de-nationalisation. He's perceived as somewhat pragmatic, not 'socialist' (although by American and real-world standards he is). Sort of sexless in a political way. If we didn't have other political issues to contend with at the moment, Britain's crap socialised medical system would be higher on the agenda, and something might have been done about it. It's way worse than America's. Trust me, you don't want it. And if you did have it, you, would go private, I'm sure. Just like our socialist politicians and their families...

But you're dead wrong about the Spaniards, who are probably (after the Greeks) the most virulently anti-American nation in Europe, and the Italians as well. We should not confuse the bravery of an Aznar with support that is forged either in deep cultural and political sympathy or else cold convergence of interests.

lex - Wrong about what? I said "that half of Europe which has supported the US..." I didn't mean France or Spain, or even Germany. Italy, however - what's your problem with them? Berlusconi's been rock solid. I know there's a fair amount of anti-Americanism there, but I also know a few Italians who would take issue with your stereotyping. Anecdotally, I visited Italy last month and the Italian friend I argue most with about politics observed that she couldn't understand Spain's reaction to the pre-election bus bombings - there's more cojones in Italy than Spain (if you pardon the abuse-of-pun). When I was think half of Europe, however, I was primarily thinking the Eastern half.
Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-03 3:56:35 PM||   2004-09-03 3:56:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 ...'train bombings', not bus.
Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-03 3:59:27 PM||   2004-09-03 3:59:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 OK, LH, that's the track I thought you were on, but the sarcasm was dripping off your earlier comments like a faucet of phlegm.

I agree with what you're saying. Putin and the Russians have botched their Chechen problem for years and have no idea how to effective manage the problem. Their solution seems to be to kill everyone in their path and they are not necessarily doing it in the name of stopping terror, just subverting the Chechen lands to Russian rule. Big difference there.

Still, if Putin gets harsh against the right people THIS time, I can't see any other choice but to support him. But he has to go after the right people, not just a mindless counter-slaughter.
Posted by Chris W.  2004-09-03 4:00:24 PM||   2004-09-03 4:00:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Seriously, Blair's middle of the road in terms of British domestic policy. All that stuff about him stealing Tory clothes is true - it's what won him his first election, and has kept him in power. That includes tolerating limited de-nationalisation. He's perceived as somewhat pragmatic, not 'socialist'

Er, i know that. Was my sarcasm not completely clear? :)

(although by American and real-world standards he is).


Persoanlly I disagee - but then some here would deny that im truely american, since i have more sympathy for the social worldviews of FDR and Harry Truman than for Ludwig Van Mies.

Sort of sexless in a political way. If we didn't have other political issues to contend with at the moment, Britain's crap socialised medical system would be higher on the agenda, and something might have been done about it. It's way worse than America's. Trust me, you don't want it.

You will note i said "insurance". Theres no movement among any conservatives to abolish that in Germany or Canada. Yeah, there are occasional stories of long waits for treatment in Canada, etc - yet the Conservatives in Canada dont argue for a US style system - and as someone who is well aware of cases of people delaying or not getting treatment under the US system, I am well aware why.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-03 4:06:25 PM||   2004-09-03 4:06:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Bulldog, if your "half of Europe" statement refers to the public, I respectfully disagree. Your Italian friend is not representative of the Italian public. Every public opinion poll I've seen indicates a majority of those polled in continental Europe opposed the Iraq War. I believe the % opposed in Spain was >90% and in Italy >70%. I recall a slight majority opposed the war in Czech and Hungary as well.

Here's the gist of my argument. Outside of Poland and the Anglosphere, the only really solid and enduring support we can count on against the jihadists will come from those nations that perceive a clear convergence of interests with us as regards making war against the jihadists AND that can actually help us with real, hard assets-- intel in the region, bases, men materiel and a willingness to use them.
The simple, brutal fact of the matter is that, aside from the UK and Poland, the Europeans are more keen to maintain access to arab/persian contracts and oil and to dampen the domestic fallout from their own local jihadist cells than they are to help us fight the jihadists on arab or persian soil. This is a cold calculation of objective national interest.

Neither do these nations have any really meaningful assets there. The farce that has been the Little Three's overtures to Iran these past couple of years is a good example. Taken together, these objective facts mean that, despite the odd courageous leader, the foreign policy elites of France, Germany, Spain and Italy will continue to seek to triangulate between us and the muslim world. That is a rational response to their objective situation and I would probably pursue the same tack if I were in the Quai d'Orsay or the other foreign offices.

Russia has pursued this strategy as well, and Turkey to some extent too. India has in the past been aligned with Iran. However, these nations and of course Israel actually have heavy assets, serious humint capabilities on the ground, bases and assets and a willingness to use them against the jihadists. Unlike the Little Three, these states' solid support for a tough containment of Iran could actually make a huge difference there, and regionally, against Al Qaeda as well.

One more point: Iran is heavily courting them. You should not underestimate the value to the desperately poor Russian arms manufacturing and engineering sector of a few billion $$ from nations like Iran. Ditto of course for the Indian and Turkish economies.

Russia, Turkey and India's support will not be easy to gain but with enough dollars, market goodies and other carrots we can bring them around. We need to get serious about doing so, and fast. A nuclear Iran is inevitable, and Old Europe is utterly powerless to help us against Iran when it happens.
Posted by lex 2004-09-03 4:19:42 PM||   2004-09-03 4:19:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Your Italian friend is not representative of the Italian public.

We'll see who wins their next election. If it's the pro-American, pro-war Berlusconi, you'll have to eat your words... Fabrizio Quattrocchi wasn't a good Italian example either? Britain wasn't exactly rabidly pro-war (at times opinion topped 60% against) yet Blair's still popular for a PM.
Posted by Bulldog 2004-09-03 4:32:29 PM||   2004-09-03 4:32:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#31  I just pray to God that the seriously wounded childrens physical wounds heal. The emotional ones will be there forever.
Those sorry shitbags. I hope the Commandoes waxed them all and those scumbags burn in the lowest levels of hell for eternity.
Posted by 98zulu 2004-09-03 4:40:56 PM||   2004-09-03 4:40:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Hope you're right, Bulldog. But best to shift our focus eastward in any case.
Posted by lex 2004-09-03 4:55:10 PM||   2004-09-03 4:55:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 I think we need to hear from the Gentle-men here. They've always been rather vague about child killing techniques.
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-03 5:10:03 PM||   2004-09-03 5:10:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Vlad! Vlad Putin! Wanna borrow a MOAB for Grozny?
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-03 6:31:13 PM||   2004-09-03 6:31:13 PM|| Front Page Top

19:36 UFO
19:36 UFO
13:26 Slomorong Choque7331
10:25 RJSchwarz
08:53 Shipman
08:52 Shipman
01:33 lex
01:17 GreatestJeneration
01:13 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)
01:10 Phil Fraering
01:06 GreatestJeneration
00:29 Barbara Skolaut
00:28 tu3031
00:28 tu3031
00:23 UFO
00:19 Aris Katsaris
00:13 lex
00:12 Zarathustra
00:06 lex
00:03 lex
23:57 cingold
23:55 SCpatriot
23:52 Phil Fraering
23:52 trailing wife









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