Article

2005-06-17 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Steve 2005-06-17 10:51|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Trouble with this is that what goes up must come down. I wouldn't be surprised if the hail of high explosive 20mm shell falling from the sky do more damage than the mortars. The same is true from antiaircraft batteries in urban areas.

On a related note, the Germans continued Zepplin raids on London in WWI even after it became clear that their relatively light bomb loads were having little effect because of the damage caused by falling AAA shells and the high cost to the Brits of making and shooting the shells.

Posted by RWV 2005-06-17 11:07|| 2005-06-17 11:07|| Front Page Top

#2 I just wouldn't want to be on the down side of all those 20mm rounds when gravity does its thing, if you know what I mean. It's one thing for a big ship to fire hundreds of round at something at sea, but I can just imagine the damage these 20's make when they hit something in a city.

Posted by Mr.Bill 2005-06-17 11:11|| 2005-06-17 11:11|| Front Page Top

#3 Read the article, the shells detonate to safe size. That said I'll bet the accidents caused by the sound of the system are greater than mortar damage.

Posted by Shipman 2005-06-17 11:26|| 2005-06-17 11:26|| Front Page Top

#4 Shipman, not sure there is a safe size. A penny doesn't weigh very much, but would you like to be under one that was dropped off a building? How many stories?

Bad idea for the Green Zone. Better idea for FOB's in the boonies.

Posted by Chuck Simmins">Chuck Simmins 2005-06-17 11:30|| http://blog.simmins.org]">[http://blog.simmins.org] 2005-06-17 11:30|| Front Page Top

#5 Actually these would be perfect for Israel's defense against the Qassam missiles.

The green zone might provide a good test bed. Let's see if, in this case, the phalanx debris does much damage or not.

Posted by mhw 2005-06-17 11:35|| 2005-06-17 11:35|| Front Page Top

#6 A penny doesn't weigh very much, but would you like to be under one that was dropped off a building? How many stories?

No, but I wouldn't worry about it.

Pennies have low terminal velocities and low masses. It'll hurt, maybe bruise, MAYBE break the skin, but it won't be a serious injury.

Don't believe me? Ask these guys.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-06-17 12:14|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-06-17 12:14|| Front Page Top

#7 Besides that pennies have flutter recovery.

/Estes buy it kid, cheap

Posted by Shipman 2005-06-17 13:53|| 2005-06-17 13:53|| Front Page Top

#8 Fragment size from fused 20mm set for use in CRAM is less than the nail on your pinkie finger. Far less than a penny. and they lose thier velocity rather quickly outside the burst radius due to irreular shape (bad aerodymanics), much like the fragments from a grenade do at a given distance (5m for the M203 40mm grenade for example)

Consider that the detonation altitude should be in excess of 50m (remember these are high-trajectory mortar shells and rockets being shot down), I doubt there is any risk at all, except for UXO, and that is minor compared to impact of HE rockets or mortar rounds.

I hope they get these up to the field positions too - places like LSA-A and some of the FOBs could use an R2D2 standing guard against mortars, plus the vectors for the POO from the fire-finder radars that come with the system would be pretty handy too for the QRF to roll up on (or UAVs to look at and track when the Muj scoot).

Posted by OldSpook 2005-06-17 15:11|| 2005-06-17 15:11|| Front Page Top

#9 Not that I'm not thankful for all the wondrous efforts made to protect us in the Zone (of course I am), but I agree with those who say it might be a better fit for FOBs and other areas with less surrounding urban area. In any case, in one of the other under-reported good news stories of the war, indirect fire on the Zone had dwindled to practically nothing -- and literally nothing, compared to the second half of '04. You will have noticed the deafening silence about this -- but that seems to be MNF-I policy, and it might make sense not to draw attention to the fact.

The controlled detonations in the Zone have caused more (accidental) damage than enemy fire in recent months. They under-estimated one last month and blew out several windows in the Palace. One this afternoon sounded like it probably broke some glass at one our buildings here.

All that said, I have to add that it's just incredibly cool that we now have a means to intercept short-range ballistic weapons like mortars.

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-06-17 15:26|| 2005-06-17 15:26|| Front Page Top

#10 ViI! Welcome back! Um, did the concussion damage the gold-plated (or are they solid?) bathroom fixtures? Ya gotta maintain some standards, bro, lol!

Posted by .com 2005-06-17 15:30|| 2005-06-17 15:30|| Front Page Top

#11 Precisely Old Spook, your wisdom rings true... perhaps connect the whole system to a roaming UAV with a mini gun or some Hellfires or some shit. Let's integrate some more whoop ass into this so their first mortar is their last! One way ticket to Allah!

Posted by Mountain Man 2005-06-17 15:31|| 2005-06-17 15:31|| Front Page Top

#12

Consider that the detonation altitude should be in excess of 50m (remember these are high-trajectory mortar shells and rockets being shot down), I doubt there is any risk at all, except for UXO, and that is minor compared to impact of HE rockets or mortar rounds.

I hope they get these up to the field positions too - places like LSA-A and some of the FOBs could use an R2D2 standing guard against mortars, plus the vectors for the POO from the fire-finder radars that come with the system would be pretty handy too for the QRF to roll up on (or UAVs to look at and track when the Muj scoot).

Those have to be two of the geekiest, most Tom Clancyesque paragraphs ever written.

Posted by Mike 2005-06-17 15:35|| 2005-06-17 15:35|| Front Page Top

#13 perhaps connect the whole system to a roaming UAV

A prof. buddy has a proposal out to mod some UAVs to tie things together in interesting ways....

Will be interesting to see if he gets his grant.

Posted by 3dc 2005-06-17 15:43|| 2005-06-17 15:43|| Front Page Top

#14 Mike - Though technically true, pun intended, just trying to picture OS as a geek is quite a howler!

Ah, the New Breed: Gentleman Warriors. Where through and through applies to firepower and intellect.
:-)

Posted by .com 2005-06-17 15:44|| 2005-06-17 15:44|| Front Page Top

#15 I read where the army refused to deploy a smaller version of this system in the green zone.

Posted by 3dc 2005-06-17 17:17|| 2005-06-17 17:17|| Front Page Top

#16 Sorry for the jargon guys. I've actually discussed this with some old buddies who are still in and have come off deployment in al-Iraq recently. THey and I were talking with some engineers from "name" contractors about C3I systems integration for field use (the geneiss for my other posts today on how DHS/Border-patrol could leverage curent technology to lock down a border region). Someone has to tell these great engineers/geeks how things work in the "real world". So, you learn the geek-speek (and the way they think is important too), and it mixes rather well with military jargon and acronyms.

And when you get into that mode, you tend to jargon up - and I fogot to drop it into plain English for you folks. SOrry bout that.

Codex below:

R2D2 is what the CIWS was called when first deployed shipboard back in my youth due to its dome-on-cylinder appearance.

QRF = Quick Reaction Force (bascially the guys staning by locked and cocked to go after baddies or pull some ambusehd/ied'd group's nuts out of the fire)

LSA = Logistics Support Area (BIG fixed bases)

LSAA = LSA Anaconda

POO = Point of Origin (bascially where they bad guys fired from)

POI = Point of Impact (when used as counterpart to POO).
also can be Person of Interest when executing a "cordon and search" of premises.

FOB = Forward Operating Base. A lot smaller than an LSA, used mainly by the triggerpullers to serve as a central point for area patrol/operations, fire control, barracks and field maint.

UXO = Unexploded Ordnance. (I think this is a Brit term, or at least thats where I picked it up ages ago from some gent in a red beret with an enourmous moustache and a sadistic attitude when it comes to realism in field training)

CIWS = Close-In-Weapons-System. Mk-15 Phalanx 20mm automatic gun&mount rapid firing. Ship-mounted, desinged as a last ditch direct fire against incoming missles (sea skimmers, or popups mainly)

Posted by OldSpook 2005-06-17 17:34|| 2005-06-17 17:34|| Front Page Top

#17 OTICK

Posted by Shipman 2005-06-17 17:45|| 2005-06-17 17:45|| Front Page Top

#18 OldSpook, I'm proud (?) to say that the only acronym I didn't know was "LSAA".

Carry on!

Posted by Parabellum 2005-06-17 18:22|| 2005-06-17 18:22|| Front Page Top

#19 LSAA is an FTM as a TLA as it has four letters.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-06-17 19:18|| 2005-06-17 19:18|| Front Page Top

#20 ...Now, let's take an R2 and give it an IR/LL capability that can be slaved to a joystick. Imaging the fun when you can pinpoint a terr with a few thousand rounds of 20mm.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-06-17 20:53|| 2005-06-17 20:53|| Front Page Top

#21 Thanks for the vocab lesson, OS. I saw FOB and started to think the U.S. Postal Service had gotten involved. I have an aquaintance who is an inspector for the USPS, and his phone number is unlisted for cause, but this would have meant they were taking the job perhaps just a tad too seriously. ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-06-17 21:08|| 2005-06-17 21:08|| Front Page Top

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