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2005-07-25 Britain

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Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-25 18:36|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Lern lrinks

Posted by cali cartel 2005-07-25 20:43|| 2005-07-25 20:43|| Front Page Top

#2 Mark Steyn has an excellent article on this at The Telegraph.

Posted by Brett 2005-07-25 20:57|| 2005-07-25 20:57|| Front Page Top

#3 I think we should not vilify the guy. I think he truly was at the wrong place and the wrong time and just panicked.

He was, as Jack Straw said, a legal alien and not connected to terror in any way. It should be made clear that he was shot by plainclothes police who were chasing him. Maybe he didn't understand they were legitimate police at all.

Given the circumstances police reaction is understandable. But right now there is no need to slander the guy. He might just have panicked. In a Brazilian slum running away from armed plainclothed police might be the thing to do, who knows.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 21:15|| 2005-07-25 21:15|| Front Page Top

#4 Link, please?

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-25 21:15|| 2005-07-25 21:15|| Front Page Top

#5 Here's Mark Steyn's excellent latest essay: Don't wait for a marksman.

Sorry TGA, I have limited sympathy given the circumstances. I could possibly revise my judgment if we learn the police didn't challenge him and demand that he stop sufficiently clearly.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-25 21:33|| 2005-07-25 21:33|| Front Page Top

#6 This tragedy is yet to fully play out. Several Google news reports now speculate that the man panicked and ran because he was in the country on an expired immigrant visa. You're right, TGA, 'wrong place and the wrong time' and guilty conscience.
Helluva price to pay for running when he should have stopped. Chances are no one would have questioned his immigration status since they had other more pressing priorities.

Posted by GK 2005-07-25 21:41|| 2005-07-25 21:41|| Front Page Top

#7 Kalle, they weren't in uniform and we don't know if they identified themselves properly or if he clearly understood what was going on.

Brazil shouldn't wipe crocodile tears now, it's a country known for police violence. From what I know about Third World countries, plainclothes guys pretending to be police are often common muggers.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 21:42|| 2005-07-25 21:42|| Front Page Top

#8 Same here, limited sympathy. London is not a Brazilian slum.

Posted by Rafael 2005-07-25 21:43|| 2005-07-25 21:43|| Front Page Top

#9 plainclothes guys pretending to be police are often common muggers

You don't have to look very far, try eastern Europe.

Posted by Rafael 2005-07-25 21:45|| 2005-07-25 21:45|| Front Page Top

#10 From the Scotsman:

Mr de Menezes had given relatives a glowing report of life in the United Kingdom in a visit to Brazil soon after moving to the country. "They don't have violence," he had said. "It's good there. Nobody walks around with a gun."

Maybe it was exactly this scene that made him panick?

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 21:45|| 2005-07-25 21:45|| Front Page Top

#11 Jack Straw said that his immigration status was legal, so that would rule out bad conscience (unless they were other reasons)

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 21:47|| 2005-07-25 21:47|| Front Page Top

#12 I stand by my wrong place wrong time idea.
German tourists have been shot by highway police in the US because they weren't familiar with the rules (left car quickly, made fast moves).

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 21:49|| 2005-07-25 21:49|| Front Page Top

#13 That could be, TGA. On the other hand I seem to recall reading that he grew up in a tough neighborhood in Brazil, one in which drug dealing was common. So it's not beyond belief that he was associated with the Islamacists living in the same apartment building, drug running or otherwise being involved in illegal activities -- probably without knowing what their aims were beyond making money in illegal ways. If true, he might well have panicked that day once the failed terror attempts were publicized and his building surrounded. News accounts specifically said that the police had photos of him that day when they surrounded the building. Don't have the link here with me on that one, tho -- sorry.

Still, I am saddened by his death if he had nothing to do with the terror cell.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-25 21:55|| 2005-07-25 21:55|| Front Page Top

#14 When you know there are terrorists on the run, trying to attack the tube, with major police efforts ongoing, you simply don't attempt anything like his final athletics when policemen ordered him to stop.

It's tragic, yes. It wouldn't have happened if Islamofascists hadn't repeatedly attacked London transports, let's not forget. And let's be grateful the British government has the intelligence and strength to ask its police to shoot to kill.

In the mid to late 70s, I used to see a lot of policemen walking around Swiss airports with machine-guns, due to Paleo-Arab terrorism. We knew there were civilian-clothed policemen too. Nobody ever tried to run when asked to stop. Ever. You're better off in jail if you're a thief, or deported if you're an illegal alien, than dead if you're an idiot.

JoÃ£o died because he acted like an idiot under the circumstances.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-25 21:56|| 2005-07-25 21:56|| Front Page Top

#15 Jack Straw actually said he is unsure what JoÃ£o's status was.

But there is NO WAY a Brazilian "electrician" could have a legal residency permit in the UK for that long. He must have gone there under false pretense (student visa) and then chose to be an illegal alien. I repeat, there is NO WAY he could have been a legal resident working full-time.

Jack Straw is likely trying to sound diplomatic in front of the cameras.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-25 22:00|| 2005-07-25 22:00|| Front Page Top

#16 Well I know how politicians talk:

Mr Straw said: "I don't have any precise information about his immigration status here. My understanding is that he was here lawfully."

You bet he would know by now EXACTLY if the status were illegal. It would make the case that the Brazilian was indeed KNOWINGLY running away from police.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 22:08|| 2005-07-25 22:08|| Front Page Top

#17 But again:
Had this happened before 7/7 this would have been excessive.
In the afdtermath of the bombings it's clearly understandable. And the policy should continue. The death of that guy will have one positive effect: Everybody knows now how to behave.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 22:11|| 2005-07-25 22:11|| Front Page Top

#18 The Police in the UK are of such a standard that other countries law enforcement are measured against them. To be an armed officer in the UK means you have been vetted at an almost unbelievable level. I have no doubt these officers repeatedly commanded him to halt and identified themselves as police.

His english was not "limited", he understood english well.

He chose to go out in a long heavy coat on a very hot day.

He ran.

He failed to stop when commanded to do so by the police.

He vaulted the turnstile at a subway station.

He entered a passanger rail car with people in it.

He was shot 8 times.

He died.

He chose to do mutilple things beyond explaination and paid with his life.

The modern idea of law enforcement started in London. The cops there know how to do their job. I don't think it's proper for the press or anyone else to second guess them. We know what the late Mister de Menezes did wrong. The armed police in the UK are not trigger happy sheriffs in some old western. I will wait for a full, but unwarranted, investigation to find the police acted correctly..

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-25 22:51|| 2005-07-25 22:51|| Front Page Top

#19 SPoD, had they been police in uniform I wouldn't even argue. With plainclothes police it's never that simple.
I'm sure they believed that they were stopping a bomber so nobody can blame them. But let's go easy on the victim.
How hot was this day and how heavy the coat? And why does a man in a heavy coat run faster than a dozen of trained police?

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-25 22:56|| 2005-07-25 22:56|| Front Page Top

#20 Well I tell you what, if I put on my "protective vest" and my 45, 4 extra mags and 3 pair of handcuffs on my too heavy body, I can't catch up very well either. I am 53 to boot. *Under most circumstances they like me would have let him go. But this isn't "most circumstances."

As always, their main duty is to protect the many from the few. This time they got one of the many. That is entirely de Menezes fault. What was he thinking? I think I know what the police officers were thinking.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-25 23:05|| 2005-07-25 23:05|| Front Page Top

#21 It was a lamentable mistake in judgement by all parties. Happens a fair amount in law enforcement. Current issue of Force Science News (unfortunately not online yet)profiles a recent study by firearms trainer Tom Aveniof police shooting efficacy--in particular shootings of unarmed suspects. The combination of furtive movement (jumping a turn style and running away) with "mistake-of-fact" (the heavy coat is concealing a bomb) can be a lethal combo when cops have to make a split-second decisions. British police aren't immune to this problem. In fact, the May 31st issue of FSN details a recent visit by top British police specialists made to the Force Science Research Center to better understand officer involved shootings:

IV. FSRC HELPS VISITING BRITS UNRAVEL TROUBLING MYSTERIES OF POLICE SHOOTINGS

Representatives of 2 elite British policing units and a major police union traveled to the Force Science Research Center this month [5/05] for a private 3-day update on the latest scientific findings about officer-involved shootings.

Three of the visitors (Andrea Earl, Peter Smyth and Dave Bonnett) were spokespeople for the Metropolitan Police Federation while Mark Williams was from the main firearms unit (SO19)which supplies armed-response vehicles for all of London while Dave Blocksidge was from the Diplomatic Protection Group (SO16) (comparable to the U.S. Secret Service.)

"We've had a number of shootings that have caused problems over the years," Cst. Mark Williams of the SO19 firearms unit told Force Science News. "These have involved perceptual distortions, the movements of subjects and officers, and the effect of memory on the writing of notes [reports]."

As in the US, he says that an "incredible naivetÅ½ about firearms" among civilians complicates police activities. "It is frightening, really."

The visitors were particularly interested in information that might prove relevant to a 1999 incident in which 2 English officers shot a suspect in the head who they thought was wielding a shotgun inside a bag. After the smoke cleared, the "gun" was found to be a wooden table leg. The officers were charged with murder and a coroner's inquest returned a verdict of "unlawful killing." Although the verdict was overturned, the case still is not fully resolved. A second coroner's inquest returned a verdict of unlawful killing that was recently overturned at the high court of London. However, the officers are still awaiting a third decision by the crown prosecution service.

The presentations they experienced at FSRC headquarters at Minnesota State University-Mankato "answered so many questions," Williams says. "We received research information on police shootings we haven't had any knowledge of. It was awesome. There's nothing like this in the U.K."

Posted by Classical_Liberal 2005-07-25 23:18|| 2005-07-25 23:18|| Front Page Top

#22 "They don't have violence," he had said. "It's good there. Nobody walks around with a gun."

Naive at best. Being in front of the barrel end of a gun is not the only way to have an encounter with violence.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-07-25 23:39|| 2005-07-25 23:39|| Front Page Top

#23 That table leg shooting has been ruled justified as of about 2 months ago. It was a directed verdict as I remember.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-25 23:49|| 2005-07-25 23:49|| Front Page Top

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