Article

2005-07-30 Britain

UK Boomer to Coppers "I have human rights"

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Posted by Captain America 2005-07-30 13:03|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Actually, the proper sequence of events should have been:

âHe was saying: âHow do I know youâre not going to shoot me like the guy in Stockwell Tube station?â

âThe police told him: âThat was a mistake, itâs not going to happen.ââ

"Hokay, we're coming out!"

"BANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANG!!!"

"Sorry."

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-07-30 13:48|| 2005-07-30 13:48|| Front Page Top

#2 Better that catch them alive. They'll be singing.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-30 14:14|| 2005-07-30 14:14|| Front Page Top

#3 My "~~Human Rights~~" multiculturally-granted liberal rights for Muslims include access to generous taxpayer-funded entitlement programs, free housing, narcotics if I choose, free love sex with de white ladies, taxpayer subsidized "barristers" (lawyers), errr ... let me see, did I leave anything out?

Posted by Ebbavins Chomoth3961 2005-07-30 14:27|| 2005-07-30 14:27|| Front Page Top

#4 A witness said: âI heard one of them say âIâve got rightsâ.â

Unfortunately, the Brits will probably proceed as if this is true. The reality is, none of the bombers, or their supporters, have any rights.

o No uniform.
o No identifiable chain of command.
o Not openly carrying arms.
o Purposefully attacking civilian targets.

Milk them for whatever information they have. Then hang them in front of the Finsbury mosque.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-30 14:33|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-30 14:33|| Front Page Top

#5 Mike,
If I may...
"I'm afraid"
"That was a mistake"
"OK,I'm coming out"
BangBangBangBang
"Ooops,this is an accident."

Posted by Stephen 2005-07-30 14:46|| 2005-07-30 14:46|| Front Page Top

#6 You know, the issue isn't that he doesn't have human rights -- the issue is how to balance those with the rights of others to survive and not be terrorized.

If I *knew* he was guilty of atrocities, I'd not have much sympathy for his own suffering thereafter -- although I think it is bad *for us* to be sadistic as revenge.

But of course we're not absolutely certain he is guilty here. So for *our sake* I think it's worth keeping the possibility of innocence open for now.

It's not that I share either the Euro relativism disease or a lack of anger about the attacks. I'm just concerned that we come through this period of history with as much of our values intact as we can -- while first and foremost defending ourselves.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 15:03|| 2005-07-30 15:03|| Front Page Top

#7 You're no fun. I'll bet the spaniels make softies jokes about 'ya.

Posted by Shipman 2005-07-30 16:29|| 2005-07-30 16:29|| Front Page Top

#8 I'm just concerned that we come through this period of history with as much of our values intact as we can -- while first and foremost defending ourselves.
Right now, Job One is to keep ourselves intact.
Our values are no good to us if we're killed.
The Brit cops were kept at bay from these scumbags for 30 minutes, trying to talk them out of the apartment.
TV film showed that there were small children only 2 floors below.
Mass murderers who claim "human rights" for themselves while depriving others of theirs, including the right to live, should be given no quarter.
This is nothing but the IslamoNazis working our liberal legal benefit for their own ends and the U.K., sad to say, is one of the best places to do it.
Working the system has worked out very, very well for the evildoers.
The capture of these men shouldn't give us pause to worry about whether we're forsaking "human rights"--Clearly, we're not.
All the bad guys care about is staying alive another day because it's an opportunity to kill more kaffir and infidels.
If wheedling and whining with the cops (with lawyers) is their way to avoid the consequences of their actions, they'll certainly do it.
And here in the U.S., we have the spectacle of a judge giving the Millenium bomber a lenient sentence with time served, not the death penalty.
If his bomb(s) had gone off, there would have been thousands dead at LAX.
Usually, you're pretty reasonable, rkb, but not here.
Most of these criminal defendants are illegal immigrants, yet we're according them the same rights as citizens.
This case offers more proof that the law enforcement/domestic criminal prosecution of terrorists doesn't work.
Maybe it's time for both British and American soldiers to handle terror incidents and not our local police, with arrested suspects being taken to Gitmo, not the local pokey, for trial and execution.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 16:52|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 16:52|| Front Page Top

#9 Our values are no good to us if we're killed.

Almost, but not quite, right.

There are worse things than dying. One of them is to throw away your integrity.

Now I'm not saying we're doing that ... not yet. But it can happen, it HAS happened to other civilizations in the name of security -- and it's worth keeping in mind.

'm just sayin', y'know?

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 16:59|| 2005-07-30 16:59|| Front Page Top

#10 rkb, ah, so then we can then be the Noble Dead.

Trust me, if the Islamists win this war, they won't be reflecting on our superior values when we're they've murdered us all.
If they're able to set up the Kaliphate in a Muslim world, some of them might wish to have us and our values back, but by then it will be too late and none of us will be around to implement them.

The U.S. and our values got through WWII just fine even though we put all Japanese Americans into camps for the duration.
The Brits became such Germanophobes during WWI that they expunged all German names from daily usage--this applied to the Royal Family, formerly named Battenburg, changed to Mountbatten--and to dogs where German shepherds were renamed "Alsatians."
There are certain measures that must be adopted in wartime when lives are at stake that seem "uncivil" and extreme in peacetime.
So far in this war, I've seen very few "miscarriages of justice" in relation to war criminals; in most cases, liberal Western justice has only succeeded in freeing bad guys that we end up either fighting later or jailing again for the same reasons.
"Better dead than rude or unjust." is the motto for only deluded liberals who may or may not still be alive when the smoke from this clears.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 17:11|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 17:11|| Front Page Top

#11 [T]he issue is how to balance those with the rights of others to survive and not be terrorized.

Ummm, no. Whatever sort of "human rights" these scum might have had, they clearly surrendered them the moment they decided to attempt to carry out terrorist acts. After all the term "human rights" presupposes that we're deaing with humans and I find these Islamofascist scum to be unworthy of association with the term "humanity" in any sense of the word.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-30 17:28|| 2005-07-30 17:28|| Front Page Top

#12 The U.S. and our values got through WWII just fine even though we put all Japanese Americans into camps for the duration.

You know, I've been around RB for several years and know how it functions for various readers. So I'm not going to get into a long debate on this one at this time.

But I think you're a bit naive about the impact on us of our actions in WWII - which I am not criticizing, by the way.

I've had long talks with a lot of WWII servicemen. Some of them were highly decorated war heros -- including my uncle/godfather. In their unguarded moments they've told me a bit about how they live with themselves after what they did and what they saw done. And I work every day with combat veterans from more recent wars.

Too, I've watched our country for a good long while now.

Like my uncle, this country was wounded by some of our actions in past wars. And like my uncle, we seldom talk about the fact that we're in pain. Today is the anniversary of nuclear holocaust. I don't take that lightly and I know it has shaped us since. America does what it needs to do -- but when we do something like drop atomic bombs on civilian populations it costs something inside.

So too when we hate.

Yes, yes ... tell me all about the necessities of war and the bravery of soldiers. I know all that - maybe better than some here, although less immediately than others. And blow off steam here, and find those who share your concerns, as I do, about where events are taking us. RB is a good place for that and I treasure it.

But don't try to convince me that we take necessary actions at *no* cost to ourselves. I know it's not true.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 17:39|| 2005-07-30 17:39|| Front Page Top

#13 rkb, aren't you forgetting that we've already incurred costs to ourselves?
There are 3,000 families of loved ones who died in the 9/11 attacks who've paid the price of us letting the Islamofacists kill with impunity...and that's just one instance.
Furthermore, I can't think of anything in Life worth mentioning that has no personal cost.
It's about responsibility, choices and consequences.
The soldiers I know about say that they did what needed to be done and that their consciences are clear.
Sometimes, war *is* the answer.
Are we lesser people for interring the Japanese during WWII?
I can't see it--there are millions of Japanese and Japanese Americans who are an integral part of our country now, as is Japanese life and culture.
Japan is now a strong ally in this war and the ties between the 2 countries have never been better.
The Japanese "forgave" us using the bomb.
Remember it took 2 to effect their surrender.
We saved thousands, if not millions of lives, by using the bomb and taught Japan an enduring lesson, because they, too, like our Islamist enemy, had embraced and were motivated by a "poisonous ideology," that of Bushido.
There is a war that Americans have agonized over and which has caused a lot of unhappiness to us and that was the Civil War.
Both North and South believed themselves to have superior "values", but only one side was right.
President Lincoln knew that in order to save the republic, it had to be proven that inexorably, one side--the right side with the better values-- had to fight and win the war, knowing well that there would be thousands dead.
To accomplish this end, he suspended the "human right" of habeas corpus for the duration of the war.
Our situation today is completely analogous: There may be some things we have to do for the war's duration to make sure that we win this war and that our values triumph in order for those values to survive, not to mention so that there will be fewer casualties from the enemy.
Letting the ACLU, Amnesty Int'l, the Hague and the UN determine the rules of engagement isn't one of them.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 17:57|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 17:57|| Front Page Top

#14 Jennie, you're arguing with the wrong person when you say "sometimes war is the answer". I got that one, okay?

As far as the cost of 9/11, my daughter was a mile from the twin towers, friends of ours were in the wing of the Pentagon that was hit. Several of my neighbors work - or worked - as police and firefighters in NYC. Okay? I *get* that war has been declared on us.

And who said anything about the ACLU and the UN determining our actions? Not me.

I used words like 'integrity'. That's a wholly other, different and higher authority for judging our words and deeds.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 18:00|| 2005-07-30 18:00|| Front Page Top

#15 No doubt some one/group/government/whatever will find a way to blame the good ol' USA. When the USA finally [they were called "isolationists" in the last century] get their way, in some November in the future, WHO will they [fill in the lazy group here]blame then? Our forefathers for 2 centuries have sacrificed so we [evil Americans] can have the quality of life we live now. The rest of the world needs to stop their "belly-aching" & fix their own problems, & stop figuring new ways for America to "get involved". We'll be happy to help, but we're tired of being "the fall guy" for everybody else. Forget the 50,000 troops coming back, bring 'em all back, turn the corn the EU/Africa doesn't want anyway into Biodiesel or ethanol for our cars. Sorry for the rant, but this is current line of thinking in America. Just shut down the borders & take care of our friends.

Posted by AAM [Evil American] 2005-07-30 18:29|| 2005-07-30 18:29|| Front Page Top

#16 Jennie, if we're not going to bother with trying to maintain some sort of rights for citizens at home then IMHO we're bothering with the war for nothing.

To me, the whole point of the war was to make foreign governments fearful of supporting terrorism so we wouldn't have to take drastic action dometically and hope everything will work out when the electoral wheel turns and the President wielding all the dictatorial power is someone who looks at foreign terrorism as a "law enforcement problem" but who is a big fan of the Janet Reno school of law enforcement.

We've been down the road of protecting ourselves from foreign terrorists by giving the police extra law enforcement powers against local citizens; it was called the Clinton Administration, and it didn't work.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-30 18:38|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-30 18:38|| Front Page Top

#17 Integrity?
That word is meaningless in this context.
The IslamoNazi killers believe themselves to have integrity every bit as much when they kill infidels as any conscientious objecter to war.
Could I kill one if they were trying to kill me and my family and friends and still have "integrity?"
You bet.
In fact, my sense of integrity would actually be strengthened.
It's only when something is attacked that we truly find out that it's "worth fighting for."
"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are worth fighting for.
Ask the Israelis, who so quickly will drop their guns to embrace peace.
It was only when they formed the nation of Israel, out of the ashes of the Holocaust, that they discovered they'd have to fight for their lives and liberties.
And it was men like my dad in the U.S. Army who fought Nazis, saw that Hitler was defeated and who liberated the death camps
who helped make the existence of Israel as a free, democratic state possible (in a long-range way, along with freeing Germany and the rest of Europe from Nazi domination).
I'm so proud of him (now long dead) and of every other soldier who's defended Freedom in WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Cold War, Gulf War I and now the WOT.
Everywhere we've fought a war, there have actually been many more lives saved than had we not joined battle and everywhere we've fought a war, we've left a land that is more free to enjoin peace.
I love this country and I love our military, present, future and our vats from wars past.
(That goes for our Allies, too.)
The only Higher Authority we have to answer to is God.
Why is it only with this war that we've done such Hamlet-like navel-gazing?
This is a luxury of peacetime which is a luxury we really don't have and for the deluded few who still don't "get it," the time they think they'll have for soul-searching is running out.
With every attack by the IslamoFacists, the number of philosophers, apologists, and ethicists dwindles.
Be sure and read all the articles on the failure of multiculturalism in the UK that have been ubiquitous since the 7/7 London
bombings.
If any people tried to respect human rights and have their "integrity" about IslamoFacism, it was them.
But as this story points out, no more.
Even in gun-hating, extremely liberal Britain, you today have heavily armed cops storming an apartment house with tear gas and making terror suspects strip naked and on live TV.
We are at war and the only option is to choose sides and then grab your weapons.
Pacifism and conscientious objection aren't an option anymore.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 18:44|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 18:44|| Front Page Top

#18 Keeping our values intact. What is this horseshit?

Some foul things were done during WW2 in order to win. Our values were not compromised at all. Same thing with the Korean conflict and Vietnam. War is hell, hellish things happen. Much better to get it over with fast and brutal so healing can begin than to play games and let the conflict go on for decades because we're worried about our values being compromised.

If we lose I think we can all be sure our values will be compromised.

Posted by rjschwarz 2005-07-30 19:04|| 2005-07-30 19:04|| Front Page Top

#19 Integrity?
That word is meaningless in this context.

Then that's the difference between you

and me.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 19:05|| 2005-07-30 19:05|| Front Page Top

#20 Some foul things were done during WW2 in order to win. Our values were not compromised at all. Same thing with the Korean conflict and Vietnam. War is hell, hellish things happen.

Foul things were done. I'll disagree that our values were not compromised, but set that aside for the moment.

Heroic things were done, too.

We must do what we must do. What I will NOT do - but what Jennie and some others at RB DO do, is to pretend it's all fine and dandy. To wallow in the prospect of many deaths from nuclear attack, or casual use of torture along the way.

We will, as I said, do what we need to. But let's not pretend it's all sweetness and light or that we don't pay a price for doing it.

We do - and it IS an inner price and it DOES take a toll on our integrity.

Jennie, I'll respect your claims a lot more once you've actually killed someone and seen them die in front of you. If you don't feel like vomiting at that point, you and I part company in a very fundamental way. Because I do shoot, and I can shoot, and I will protect myself if I need to-- but I'll never feel triumpant about the prospect.

And neither do the combat veterans I most respect.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 19:10|| 2005-07-30 19:10|| Front Page Top

#21

"Integrity? That word is meaningless in this context."
Then that's the difference between you and me."

This appears to be really stinging and decisive as a comeback, but it isn't.
One shouldn't try to occupy the moral high ground when they don't possess it and haven't taken it and you haven't.
To quote the great Rudy Guiliani, "We're right and they're wrong."
*THAT* is ingrerity.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 19:12|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 19:12|| Front Page Top

#22 You don't get it, Jennie.

We can be right and still pay a terrible price for doing what we need to do. It has happened before and I don't doubt it will happen again. It happened when we bombed places in Iraq and civilians with no connection to the Saddam regime other than as victims suffered.

It will happen again. We will defend ourselves and with luck will survive. But it's only on TV and in kid's stories that that happens without any lasting cost.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 19:29|| 2005-07-30 19:29|| Front Page Top

#23

We must do what we must do. What I will NOT do - but what Jennie and some others at RB DO do, is to pretend it's all fine and dandy.

I don't pretend that it's all "fine and dandy."
Just the contrary, I hate this war and I hate that we have to fight it, but we do.

Or to wallow in the prospect of many deaths from nuclear attack, or casual use of torture along the way.

Nor have I "wallowed" in deaths from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You'd have to ask Truman, Tibbets and others if they "wallowed."
By 1945, the Japanese had killed plenty of us and vice versa.
Our generals felt that the U.S. could easily have 1,000,000 dead GIs if we'd chosen to invade Japan and no telling how many dead Japanese.

As for the "casual use of torture," I've seen absolutely nothing that leads to me to believe that any American, civilian or soldier, has engaged in torture, much less casual torture although I wouldn't have a problem with it being used to get Gitmo detainees to tell what they know about future attacks if it would save lives.

Jennie, I'll respect your claims a lot more once you've actually killed someone and seen them die in front of you. If you don't feel like vomiting at that point, you and I part company in a very fundamental way. Because I do shoot, and I can shoot, and I will protect myself -- but I'll never feel triumpant about the prospect.

What made me feel like vomiting was the sight of my fellow American citizens hurling themselves to certain death 100 stories from the top floors of the burning WTC on 9/11!
I don't have to kill anyone yet, but I'm armed and ready to do so, if it becomes necessary.
Death is ugly. So is war.
As a strong supporter of the war, I've never felt "triumphant."
That I won't feel until we're victorious.
But I know we're doing the right thing.
I mourn every soldier killed or injured in the war.
I wish we didn't have to send our sons and daughters over there, but we do.
They need our support here at home, not whining and crying over the "costs" of war, the "ethicity" of war, or whether we "feel good" about it.
Feelings are for liberals and that's what got us into this mess in the first place--We refused to intervene in Iran in 1979 because Jimmy Carter didn't want to hurt the "feelings" of the Ayatollah and he "respected the integrity of their 'freedom' movement.
Bill Clinton pulled us out of Somalia because it "didn't look nice" that we were having to use armed soldiers to carry out a peace-keeping mission to distribute food.
We found out too late after 9/11 that Osama Bin Laden had armed those killers in Mogadishu.
Now, they're picking up terrorists that tried to bomb London in Somalia.
What goes around comes around.
Daniel Pearl had a "peacenik" attitude somewhat similar to yours, rkb, and look what happened to him.
Ditto for Nicholas Berg.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."--Edmund Burke
Enjoy your smug sense of amorphous "integrity"--I'd rather gauge mine by what I did or tried to do to stop evil men from carrying out their dark deeds while you would advocate doing nothing.
You've chosen sides whether you admit it or not and that's the wrong side, the evil side, the side that can and must lose.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 19:38|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 19:38|| Front Page Top

#24 you would advocate doing nothing.
You've chosen sides whether you admit it or not and that's the wrong side, the evil side, the side that can and must lose.

Jennie, with that statement you demonstrate that you do not have a clue about what I actually am doing to support our war against extremist terror.

I won't pursue this any farther in this thread or others tonight. I think I understand your point of view.

I know you don't understand mine.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 19:45|| 2005-07-30 19:45|| Front Page Top

#25 Just fucking nutz

Posted by Shipman 2005-07-30 19:50|| 2005-07-30 19:50|| Front Page Top

#26 Bravo Jennie, RKB is on the other side ... he just doesn't realize it.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-30 19:50|| 2005-07-30 19:50|| Front Page Top

#27 I have a feeling I am going to request someone getting modded and that someone is going to deserve it. Someone needs to cool off. We are not the side of evil here. Someone needs to back away from their keyoard and get a grip on their attitude.

Consider this a request for someone who is not on the editorial staff here to STFU for a while and get a grip.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-30 19:51|| 2005-07-30 19:51|| Front Page Top

#28 It can't be helped, a screeching bitch is a screeching bitch. See yawl. Been nice Jenny.

Posted by Shipman 2005-07-30 19:51|| 2005-07-30 19:51|| Front Page Top

#29 "...a shrieking bitch..."
Why do you call me this?
I'm a patriotic American woman.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 19:57|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 19:57|| Front Page Top

#30 He must've meant rkb.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-30 20:00|| 2005-07-30 20:00|| Front Page Top

#31 No you are vile, small minded and insulting creature. I am done with this thread.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-30 20:02|| 2005-07-30 20:02|| Front Page Top

#32 "I have human rights". "If you won't go away, I'll blow them up."

Posted by gromgoru 2005-07-30 20:06|| 2005-07-30 20:06|| Front Page Top

#33 I was going to walk away from this, but I will add one last comment.

Azcat and Jennie:

I am the wife of a retired military officer, the daughter, niece, aunt, cousin and 2nd cousin of professional military. With the exception of 1 generation my family has been professional military for nearly 300 years. I had ancestors who fought for our side in the American revolution. I had close relatives at Bastogne, at Normandy, at Sicily in WWII. Several came back decorated. Several came back badly wounded.

I had close relatives in Korea, in Vietnam, in the missile silos during tense atomic alerts, on nuclear subs. A good part of my family died fighting against the tyranny of Stalin; others died fighting Hitler.

I work with and for our military today. "Work with" as in "employed by". "Work with" as in "share office, lunch, social gatherings, personal joys and sorrows with".

"Work with" also, on some occasions, as in "talk with young soldiers before they go to Iraq and with them -- and sometimes their widows -- when they come back".

I am proud of our military, I supported and support our actions in Iraq and elsewhere. And I also know that we pay a price for those actions, both directly and indirectly.

I've read the materials we use when training officers in the ethics of military operations. I've talked with combat veterans about those materials. You are incredibly presumptuous to assume that to discuss the effects of warfare and tactics on the soldier -- and on the country as whole -- is to be on the other side.

A few weeks ago we buried a young officer, a few days after his wife gave birth to their 4th child. We were there to honor his sacrifice and hers. We were there to grieve with them and to be proud with them.

So don't you begin to suggest that I am on the other frigging side of this war. Two months ago I sent a bunch of young people off to fight in it, including a woman I have become quite close to. One month ago I welcomed several colleagues back from it.

I have decorations on my wall from 3 star commanders for my small part in it, including a civilian medal.

You may disagree with my point of view. But you will not be allowed to go unchallenged if you suggest -- without having a clue about me or my work -- that I am on the other side.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 20:11|| 2005-07-30 20:11|| Front Page Top

#34 I didn't say that there wasn't a cost or price to be paid in war, rkb.
I said that it was worth it.
I appreciate your service to our military, even though you are compensated by money, too.
I support our military wholeheartedly and their mission and their Commander-in-Chief.
I mourn and pray for every soldier who's given the ultimate sacrifice of his or her life and I pray for the healing of those who've been wounded in battle.
The U.S. didn't start this war, but we're going to finish it.
Our troops need our support for what they're doing around the world and I think it's them and not us who should worry about things like the personal cost of war and whether they can "keep their integrity" by fighting and killing the enemy.
Be careful, however, that your civilian quibbling, ambivalence, ethical brow-beating and undue criticism of our country and its military doesn't result in the weakness of our forces and the strengthening of the enemy.

The Islamists are already in control of 58 countries, but they want the whole planet.
Maybe there are still a few places one can go to escape having to take sides or to be safe from attacks, but they grow fewer and fewer with every day.
Neither the U.S. nor the U.K. nor Australia are now one of those places.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 20:27|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 20:27|| Front Page Top

#35 even though you are compensated by money, too.

You really are a nasty piece of work, Jennie, aren't you?

When my husband and I agreed to take our current jobs supporting the military -- after he had retired from active duty service and moved into private industry -- we took a pay cut.

Together we now earn 1/3 of what we did before we accepted these jobs (and could do again).

We're not unique, it's true of many of my colleagues as well, in and out of uniform. You really don't have a clue about the military community do you?

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 20:32|| 2005-07-30 20:32|| Front Page Top

#36 RKB - My family's history with the US military may not span three centuries as yours does but that's because I, as so many others, am borne of immigrant stock and we have not had the honor of having three centuries in which to serve this nation.

Trust me RKB, I understand your "price" better than many: my father spent a year on the front lines mixing it up with the Germans in France and Germany in '44-45. I, and my family, paid the price for that service every day of his life but itâs not a badge to be lorded over others in the manner in which you employ it. Itâs merely the cost of our freedom and way of life, a cost it is the duty of every patriot to pay when called. Merely because my family has suffered doe not make me morally superior to others.

If WWII isnât your bag perhaps you'd like to hear about my mother's youngest brother who voluntarily enlisted in the Air Force during Viet Nam. He left home an honor student and returned a raving psychopath unable to care for himself. Mayhap the family's 30 year battle that with the Air Force to admit his service (yes, you read that correctly, it took 30 years for the Air Force to admit that my uncle had actually served) would sway you. Believe me, his numerous stays in various mental institutions werenât a picnic.

If that's not sufficient perhaps you'd like to hear about my brother who is currently serving in Iraq. On his second day in-country a jihadi drove alongside his convoy and detonated a car bomb destroying the truck behind the one in which my brother was riding. My brotherâs five (yes 5) children were a random decision and a few yards away from growing up without a father.

So please spare me the lectures on the personal costs of war as I experienced them every day of my life. I, and I assume most here, are intimately familiar with them. The salient point is not that costs will be borne by those who fight wars but that our principles, our ideals, are greater than any cost which we, or our families, will be asked to bear. Our ideals are greater than any man, greater than any cost we might be asked to bear, and that is why we must prevail.

I say it again: Bravo Jennie. RKBâs family may have bled so that she can express her opinion but what she it forgetting today is that mine, and I assume yours, bled so we can express ours.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-30 21:16|| 2005-07-30 21:16|| Front Page Top

#37 The salient point is not that costs will be borne by those who fight wars but that our principles, our ideals, are greater than any cost which we, or our families, will be asked to bear. Our ideals are greater than any man, greater than any cost we might be asked to bear, and that is why we must prevail.

I think we agree on that AzCat - and if you don't think so, go read what I wrote again.

I never said it wasn't worth it. I did say the costs are real and sometimes subtle.

As far as lording it over people, I only reluctantly cited my family's work and my own in response to rather nasty personal attacks from you and Jennie. It was YOU two who decided that anyone you thought disagreed with you is "on the other side" in the great and dangerous war we are fighting. It was Jenny who asserted that if I disagreed with her, I was advocating doing nothing and was on the side of evil. For instance, Jennie wrote:

I'd rather gauge mine by what I did or tried to do to stop evil men from carrying out their dark deeds while you would advocate doing nothing.
You've chosen sides whether you admit it or not and that's the wrong side, the evil side, the side that can and must lose.

That demanded an answer, and I gave it.

By the way, a small point, but only one half of my family has been here since before the Revolution. The other half served for a long time in their country of origin before immigrating to this country at the beginning of the 20th century.

Posted by rkb 2005-07-30 21:29|| 2005-07-30 21:29|| Front Page Top

#38 What an embarrassing thread. I can see it now in KOS Kids: "RB melts down!!"

As said earlier this week, my patience with the asshats is about exhausted. My patience with the moonbats ia also about exhausted. I see red when asshats and moonbats natter on about human rights.

But having said that, there is NOTHING more important than integrity - personal and national. Each individual makes judgements about his own integrity. The debate here at RB helps us to define what affects our national integrity.

There is no excuse for resorting to the Democratic Underground style of debate. We don't have chance if we call BS and and name enemies at the first sign of disagreement. If this happens, then integrity is already gone.

Posted by SR-71">SR-71 2005-07-30 21:58|| 2005-07-30 21:58|| Front Page Top

#39 RKB, what I object to is your citation to your familyâs service in an attempt to stifle debate as that is the antithesis of everything for which your ancestors (and mine) fought and died. Your family and mine spilt blood so that you, I, Jennie, and millions more would have the right to freely express ourselves. Your attempts to stifle such debate on âpatrioticâ grounds I find the height of hypocrisy. To hold your familyâs service forth as a badge proving the superiority of your perspective to that of your fellow man flies in the face of everything your ancestors bled to preserve.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-30 22:18|| 2005-07-30 22:18|| Front Page Top

#40 Guys, Fred Pruitt gives a lot of thought to those he's tapped to stand in for him as moderators. In the old days (pretty much before my time, but anyway) he was able to handle Rantburg all by himself, but he does have a day job, and a family, and every once in a while ought to take care of his bodily needs...

Anyway, rkb, known as Robin to those who know her better than I do, had a well-established reputation before she stepped up to the plate to help run Rantburg. She has had at least two blogs of her own, plus is one of the founding members of the Winds of Change warblog. Whether or not you like what she has to say, you should give her the same respect you would give to Fred. Or anyway, at least as much respect as she gets from the future army officers privileged to take in her lectures each week.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-30 22:34|| 2005-07-30 22:34|| Front Page Top

#41 I'm a patriotic American woman.

A patriot doesn't announce it to all and sundry.

I'm still trying to figure out whether it's you or AzCat that's the bigger blowhard.

Posted by Pappy 2005-07-30 22:37|| 2005-07-30 22:37|| Front Page Top

#42 How could this thread get so nasty without any trolls involved.

I think both sides are missing the most important thing: We witnessed not only a terrorist who just lost, but the ideology of terror lost.

1) The 2 guys GAVE UP, surrendered. "You treasure life, we treasure death" is the jihadi slogan. Who won here?
2) Even more important, a jihadi claims he "got rights". Human rights? Those rights are our rights, the values of the Western Civilisation which the jihadi just started to claim. His world does not have them, our world has. Who won here?

What rkb said is important: It's not about them, it's about us. We won't be dragged down to their level. No one can remain without fault in a war, not even Americans, but they have always tried so much harder to maintain dignity and integrity even in the most atrocious fighting. It's the American soldier who carries the wounded little girl (who could well be the daughter of an insurgent) out of the danger zone (the Nazi soldier might have shot her, the jihadi bombed her). It's an American soldier, a doctor, who provided first aid to a sniper who just shot at him. And even in the jungle hell of Vietnam most US soldiers maintained their integrity. Those who did not suffered later.

When you talk with Americans about Hiroshima today, the majority will defend it as strategic necessity, but they don't gloat over it. I don't know many Americans who would look at a photo of Hiroshima with scarred bodies and say: "So what, served the bastards right, they attacked Pearl Harbor."

This is what rkb means: Wars leave scars, returning barbary leaves bigger scars.

It will not help us if we try to be like "them". We need to fight them, and the fight will not always be error free. But we chose our weapons, not they.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-30 22:40|| 2005-07-30 22:40|| Front Page Top

#43 Sehr gut gesagt, TGA. Well said, indeed. I always learn when you share your hard-earned wisdom.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-30 22:42|| 2005-07-30 22:42|| Front Page Top

#44 trailing wife... maintaining your dignity and integrity in the camps was the most important thing, more important than that little piece of bread that often meant the difference between life and death.

Those who stole the bread from their companions did not survive, even when not caught.

Lose dignity, lose integrity, and you lose it all. And you never recover it.

This is what the terorists want. And they won't get it.

I wish someone would make a poster: To the left Signore Quattrochi, who showed the terrorists "how an Italian man dies"... and to the right that bare-breasted jihadi with hands up and whining about his "rights".

Quite a message.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-30 22:51|| 2005-07-30 22:51|| Front Page Top

#45 Well spoke, TGA.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2005-07-30 22:51|| 2005-07-30 22:51|| Front Page Top

#46 Well said, TGA. I couldn't read all the back and forth between two regulars, but I did like your point-of-view! For you, TGA:

Herr, Du kanst brucken bauen
Aus eis und frost
darum bitten wir dich im vertrauen
bau eine brucke zchwischen west und oest
das die menschen die nach frieden streiben
kann hier ouf erde im frieden leben

Apologies to Goethe for the spelling errors. I'm glad you contribute to Rantburg!

Tu nur das beste in deinen sachen
das andre wird sich von selbe machen!

Posted by Bobby 2005-07-30 22:53|| 2005-07-30 22:53|| Front Page Top

#47 "To put the world right in order, we must first put the nation in order; to put the nation in order, we must first put the family in order; to put the family in order, we must first cultivate our personal life; we must first set our hearts right."

Confucius

(And thank you for Goethe)

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-30 23:03|| 2005-07-30 23:03|| Front Page Top

#48 TGA, #44 was just a great comment, at several levels. Thank you.

Posted by Matt 2005-07-30 23:26|| 2005-07-30 23:26|| Front Page Top

#49 I'll make one last comment.

In the beginning hours of the first Gulf War, I was in constant radio contact with a downed A-6 pilot. His bombadier was dead, he was wounded and unable to move. We scrambled CSAR to get him. With the helo five minutes from his position, I got to listen to him say 'they're coming' and then hear him shot to death.

Days before the end of the Gulf War, I interviewed two emaciated Iraqi army officers who were taken as EPWs. After being without supplies for a month, under constant bombing (including MOABs), and a significant number of soldiers in their unit shot for trying to desert, they themselves deserted.

Now if I was a 'righteous patriot' like Ms. Taliaferro and AzCat, I should have just taken my .45 and let them have it, like the A-6 pilot got it, right? Or told the SEALs guarding them to take them on a 'midnight walk' to the fantail? Surely at the very least they should have had their mattresses, food and water removed?

What I felt was pity. And that is what makes us warriors different.

TGA is right. And if you can't understand what he and rkb are saying, well, I pity you too.

Posted by Pappy 2005-07-30 23:27|| 2005-07-30 23:27|| Front Page Top

#50 Yes Pappy, and had you done what you decided not to do, you would pity yourself now.

It makes all the difference in the world that you made the right decision. For yourself and for as all.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-07-30 23:38|| 2005-07-30 23:38|| Front Page Top

#51 "Now if I was a 'righteous patriot' like Ms. Taliaferro and AzCat, I should have just taken my .45 and let them have it, like the A-6 pilot got it, right? Or told the SEALs guarding them to take them on a 'midnight walk' to the fantail? Surely at the very least they should have had their mattresses, food and water removed?"
That's not what I said, Pappy.
And circumstances are different now than they were in Gulf War I; even Saddam's Iraq had signed the Geneva Convention and wore uniforms.
If those soldiers had surrendered, then absolutely what you suggest would have been wrong.
I think some of our dads who were in the Greatest Generation would surprise you if they were honest about what they did to either Japanese or Nazi prisoners who fell into their hands.
The jihadies are different: no uniforms, no officers, no Geneva signatories and they kill civilians as well as soldiers both here in the West and Iraq without warning and with no mercy.
War is no picnic and it's not a humanitarian mission.
That being said, our soldiers conduct it with as much respect for the enemy as human beings as they can without being reckless.
I marvel at their courage and compassion every day.

And if it's not OK to proclaim you're a patriot, when can you, if you're defending your country?
After 9/11, I'd gladly put on a uniform but I'm almost 50 and not in very good physical shape, even for a woman.
So I do what I can to fight for America.

Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro 2005-07-30 23:47|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2005-07-30 23:47|| Front Page Top

23:47 Jennie Taliaferro
23:47 PlanetDan
23:38 True German Ally
23:31 Jackal
23:27 Pappy
23:27 Jackal
23:26 Matt
23:25 Jackal
23:22 Jackal
23:20 Jackal
23:17 trailing wife
23:11 jules 2
23:03 CrazyFool
23:03 True German Ally
22:59 badanov
22:58 Pappy
22:53 Pappy
22:53 Bobby
22:53 trailing wife
22:51 Dave D.
22:51 True German Ally
22:42 trailing wife
22:40 True German Ally
22:37 Pappy