You have commented 339 times on Rantburg.

Your Name
Your e-mail (optional)
Website (optional)
My Original Nic        Pic-a-Nic        Sorry. Comments have been closed on this article.
Bold Italic Underline Strike Bullet Blockquote Small Big Link Squish Foto Photo
Europe
Steyn: Pacifist Europeans have short memories
2003-11-11
Hat tip to Instapundit - EFL, Read it all, as they say
After September 11, I wondered rhetorically (in The Spectator) what are we prepared to die for, and got a convoluted e-mail back from a French professor explaining that the fact that Europeans weren’t prepared to die for anything was the best evidence of their superiority: they were building a post-historical utopia — a Europe it would not be necessary to die for. Or as Robert Kagan’s recent thesis puts it: these days Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus.

Can’t see it working myself. A couple of months back, I found myself in the company of a recently retired Continental prime minister and mentioned what a chap in the Pentagon had said to me about how the Europeans really needed to invest in new technology or they’d no longer be able to share the same battlefield with the Americans. I thought I was making a boring, technocratic, Nato-expenditure sort of point, but he took it morally and visibly recoiled. "But why would we want to have such horrible weapons?" he said, aghast. "In Europe today, it is just inconceivable to possess such things."

You can’t help noticing that it’s the low-tech weapons that are really horrible. In Liberia, Sierra Leone, Rwanda and the Congo, millions get hacked to death by machetes. Even on the very borders of EUtopia, hundreds of thousands died in the Balkans in mostly non-state-of-the-art ways until the Americans intervened. According to the latest estimates, the mass graves in Iraq contain the remains of at least 300,000 people, but we’re still arguing about whether the war was "justified". The pacifism - or, more accurately, passivism - of Europe does not seem especially moral.

But even the British, according to Max Hastings in The Spectator, are "furious" with America. "British soldiers and diplomats anticipated almost every misfortune that has occurred," Sir Max assures us, and proceeds to recite a long list of things the shrewd Brits told their cocky Yank cousins: the Americans don’t have enough troops on the ground, and they’re the wrong kind of troops anyway, ill-suited to peacekeeping, lacking the cultural sensitivity of the wise old British, etc. If "British soldiers and diplomats" really said all this to the Americans, the answer would seem to be obvious — You don’t think there are enough troops? Send some more yourself. You think Americans are lousy at peacekeeping? Fine, we’ll do the dirty work, you guys can do all the community-liaison foot patrols. Usually on Veterans’ Day in the US, serving troops at local bases fan out to small towns in the area and participate in their parades. Not this year. There’s nobody around. By contrast, between April and August the strength of the British contingent in Iraq was reduced by 75 per cent. The UK is one of the few credible military powers left in the developed world, yet it can’t sustain a proportionate share of the burden of even a small war. And, in all his indestructible condescension, it never occurs to Sir Max to wonder how it must sound to American ears to be told you’re doing it all wrong by folks who can barely do it at all.

As to whether the Prince of Wales is bisexual, I’ve no idea. But I do know that, between the Guardian hyper-rationalists at home and the European Constitutionalists in Brussels, whatever supplants the House of Windsor is likely to push Britain further toward the curiously enervated condition of the modern Continental social democracy. The EU has done a grand job of trumpeting its weakness as strength, but the fact remains that there’s something hollow at the heart of European identity. You can’t be a great power without great power: Slobodan Milosevic called the EU’s bluff on that a decade ago.

When you say as much to Euro-grandees, they say, ah, but you wouldn’t understand, here on the Continent we have seen the horrors of war close up, the slaughter of the Somme casts long shadows. I’ll say. In the New Statesman last week, Philip Kerr managed to yoke All Quiet On The Western Front with Joan Baez and John Lennon, and unintentionally underlined just how obsolescent the Sixties folk-protest canon is. Where Have All The Flowers Gone? would have made a great song for the First World War, but not for Afghanistan or Iraq or anything we’re likely to fight in the future. In our time, mass slaughter occurs only in places where the West refuses to act - in the Sudan or North Korea - or acts only under the contemptible and corrupting rules of UN "peacekeeping", as at Srebrenica. In Afghanistan and Iraq and elsewhere, technological advantage changes the moral calculus: it makes war the least worst option, the moral choice. At the 11th hour of the 11th day, we should remember those who died in the Great War, but recognise that it could never be "the war to end all wars" and never should.
A dignified and somber Veterans’ Day to all!
Posted by:Frank G

#13  "A dignified and somber Veterans’ Day to all!"

It Is The Soldier
by author uncertain

It Is The Soldier not the reporter,
who has given US Freedom of the press

It Is The Soldier not the poet,
who has given US Freedom of speech

It Is The Soldier not the campus organizer,
who has given US the Freedom to demonstrate

It Is The Soldier not the lawyer,
who has given US the right to a fair trial

It is the soldier, who saluted the Flag,
who serves beneath the Flag
and whose coffin is draped by the Flag,
who allows the protester to burn the Flag

http://www.sid-ss.net/write/soldier.htm
Posted by: tipper.   2003-11-11 11:49:29 PM  

#12  OP - Spain, Portugal, & Scandinavia - the 51st through 55th new states? Fine by me. Hot women, wide array of scenery/climates, decent chow, and some good booze. LOL.
Posted by: Jarhead   2003-11-11 11:33:47 PM  

#11   OTOH - I smell at least five new states to be added to our union across the pond ;) (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Better be your own &^&(%$@# cheek! 8^). Seriously, there's the possibility of half of Scandinavia, the Baltic Republics, and much of Eastern Europe that by now would welcome any halfway decent alternative to the European Union. You might be able to add Spain, Portugal, and Italy to that list, as well. The Swiss have the option of telling the whole world to bugger off, if they choose, and have the manpower and equipment to get away with it.

No matter how the lefties try to wiggle out of it, there are always consequences to behavior. The consequences for their current idiotic behavior could well be their demise.
Posted by: Old Patriot   2003-11-11 10:09:35 PM  

#10  "to secure peace is to prepare for war" - George Washington

Let's see, nothing worth fighting for huh? If that's indeed the sentiment of most of the Europeans - God help them. Maybe they've become so enamored w/quasi-socialism it doesn't matter who calls the shots as long as they can eek out an existence. Plug into the collective I guess. War is not the most pathetic of things, a man who has nothing in which he would fight for is.

OTOH - I smell at least five new states to be added to our union across the pond ;) (tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Posted by: Jarhead   2003-11-11 9:14:08 PM  

#9  RC
Give ya points for the Norks...

But China? I thought they were a member of the gang of 8?
Posted by: Shipman   2003-11-11 6:50:40 PM  

#8  Shipman -- both China and North Korea are credible (if local) military powers, and are not part of the developed world.
Posted by: Robert Crawford   2003-11-11 4:25:10 PM  

#7  He write good stories but jebus... few credible military powers left in the developed world, gotta watch out for Nigerian Mechanzied Corps.
Posted by: Shipman   2003-11-11 3:44:52 PM  

#6  Shoot, you left out the GOOD part

The UK is one of the few credible military powers left in the developed world, yet it can't sustain a proportionate share of the burden of even a small war. And, in all his indestructible condescension, it never occurs to Sir Max to wonder how it must sound to American ears to be told you're doing it all wrong by folks who can barely do it at all.


Priceless!
Posted by: Ptah   2003-11-11 3:02:13 PM  

#5  I blogged three other November 11's. This one stands out as apropos:

November 11, 1944: the flooded Moselle, France
On the 31st of October the Group moved to an assembly area at Pierrepont in preparation for the crossing of the Moselle at Thionville by the 90th and the flanking of Metz by the 10th Armored. From the 8th to the l5th of November, the Group supported the 90th in establishing a bridgehead across the flooded Moselle and on the 15th crossed the Thionville bridge with Task Force CHAMBERLAIN of the 10th Armored. The Group supported the 10th, slashing through fanatical resistance until the last escape route out of the fortress city had been cut and the Division was relieved by the 90th lnfantry Division.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins   2003-11-11 1:29:30 PM  

#4  Baltic, if you think about it, most of America is also a graveyard. Revolutionary, Civil, Spanish, Mexican, Indian wars.

We're a 3000-mile wide graveyard.
Posted by: Anonymous   2003-11-11 1:25:38 PM  

#3  Living in Europe I have come to NOT appreciate the European viewpoint on this. I just have to think in Auschwitz or Treblinka and tell myself "This wouldn't have happenned if the French of the thirties had remembered that freedom is maintained when you are ready to die for it, that sometimes peace is better kept by firmness than by throwing the Czech sacrificial lamb to the wolves and that sometimes avoiding a small war now (eg expelling Germans from Rhenania in 1936) than a big one later. And that if you instead of crushing the monster when it is weak, you let it grow until you can no longer contain it then you are responsible for its crimes.
Posted by: JFM   2003-11-11 1:18:02 PM  

#2  First off, as a dedicated civilian my thanks to all of you who have served (or are serving) so that my family and I can sleep in peace. That is a debt I can never repay.

As to this post, I think Max Hastings is a pretty good military historian but he's not known for accentuating the positive. His book on the Normandy campaign, Overlord, basically concludes that the Allies (British and American) sort of lucked out and that the Germans coulda shoulda woulda won. If you compare Overlord to D-Day by Stephen Ambrose you would think they were writing about two entirely different battles.
Posted by: Matt   2003-11-11 12:05:44 PM  

#1  Living in Europe, I've come to appreciate the European viewpoint on this. You can't go but a few miles in any direction without a battleground, or a last stand, or a gravesight to the honored dead. It's like Virginia on 'roids.
A few hours away, there's a site where fragments of bones from dead Red Army soldiers pop up every spring. 9/11 was a good day in comparison for some of these countries.
What is amazing, though, and what Steyn has touched on in his piece, is that the Europeans have learned the wrong lesson. Now, no use of force is justifiable in any circumstance.
Top that off with the EU, the citadel of "no certain beliefs," well, I'm glad to have an American passport.
Posted by: Baltic Blog   2003-11-11 11:59:17 AM  

00:00