EFL - another shot at the camel's nose under the tent
The European Commission proposed new rules to oversee the content of programmes screened on television and over the Web on Tuesday, ushering in a key change to how productions can be financed. The "television without frontiers" proposals will need the approval of the European Parliament and European Union member states to become law.
The rules will oversee "moving images" in whatever way they are delivered, bringing Web-based or pay-per-view cable television under EU remit, which has hitherto been limited to traditional, scheduled television channels.
"It would be a distortion of competition if we were to just regulate one and not all," EU Information Commissioner Viviane Reding told reporters.
She described the new proposals as offering a "light regulatory touch" in a multi-channel, multi-media age. Is that not the most Hillaryesque phrase you've ever heard?
Current rules of no more than 12 minutes of advertising per hour will stay, but non-factual programmes will be allowed to use branded products on set to raise cash, a device known as product placement. Big deal - we do that all the time without worrying that Pepsi will destroy Mecca Cola's market
"There was quite a lively and long-winded debate in the Commission," Reding said, but added no major changes were made to her text.
Some EU lawmakers are expected to say it is too easy on advertisers, and not strong enough in defending European culture against its American counterpart.
Traditional broadcasters complain that the proposed new rules propose a lighter regulatory regime for the new pay-per-view services where viewers can choose what to watch. Damn freedom of choice!In the proposals, the definition of television is ditched in favour of "moving image", with or without sound and distributed by electronic networks, so that moving images over the Internet are also covered. ahem
The new rules also reaffirm that only one member state will have regulatory oversight of a media firm, known as the country of origin rule.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:39 ||
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She described the new proposals as offering a "light regulatory touch" in a multi-channel, multi-media age.
Whatever. As long as these power-hungry idiots limit the scope of their demands and remedies to the area within their own borders, they can do whatever the hell they want. Leave us the hell alone.
A 39-year-old Swede accused of terrorism by the United States has been arrested in Prague. The man, who was not identified, is wanted by the CIA spy agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), which accuse him of being terror mastermind Osama Bin Laden's "man in Sweden", Swedish tabloid Expressen reported Tuesday.
The US has tried to obtain his extradition for several years, accusing him of setting up Al Qaeda training camps in the US state of Oregon in 1999, but Sweden has refused to hand him over, the paper said. The man was on a Czech Airlines flight from Stockholm to Beirut on Sunday, but never got there after stopping over in Prague, the paper said. The Swedish foreign ministry confirmed that a Swedish man was missing but would not confirm the newspaper's report. "The man's brother has asked us to look into the matter. He did not arrive in Beirut and the brother suspects that he got stuck in Prague," foreign ministry spokeswoman Miriam Mannbro told AFP on Tuesday.
However, the first secretary at the Swedish embassy in Prague, Leena Jaanson, told Expressen that the 39-year-old was arrested when he landed in the Czech capital. The paper said that the Swede was also accused of having links to the group that carried out the July 7 bombings in London.
Expressen met the 39-year-old earlier this year when he denied having anything to do with the London bombings. But he stressed that he "loved Bin Laden". "You don't have to be a terrorist to love Bin Laden," he told the paper. According to Expressen, the man was accused in Sweden of plotting terrorist attacks several years ago but was freed for lack of evidence. He was later sentenced to a year behind bars on a weapons offence.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 10:20 ||
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A witness denied at the trial of terrorist suspects in Amsterdam on Monday that he was an informer for the security service AIVD.
Saleh B., 28, also rejected the suggestion he gave one of the accused men, Jason W., four hand grenades, one of which were used against police at W.'s home on the Antheunisstraat in The Hague on 10 November. Several members of a police raiding party were injured. After a day-long siege, Jason W. and a second accused man, Ismail A., surrendered.
Mohammed B., 27 - the man convicted of killing filmmaker Theo van Gogh - and 13 other Muslims with Moroccan backgrounds are on trial in Amsterdam charged with membership of
the Hofstadgroep, which the authorities claim was a terrorist network.
W. alleged that Saleh B. had given him a plastic bag, containing the grenades, to mind. B. did not deny he had been in the home on the Antheunisstraat, but he denied providing the explosives.
While W. accused the state's witness of lying, DNA evidence presented to the court indicated no traces from B. were found on the three remaining grenades.
B. said he used to have a stall at a street market in The Hague and he got to know W. because the accused was interested in the business.
Turning to suggestions in the media that he was an informant or agent provocateur, B. denied he was working for the AIVD when he became acquainted with W. He did, however, concede the AIVD had approached him in the past but the contact soon ended.
B. was sparing with his answers on Monday and repeatedly made use of his right not to testify about certain matters. He was arrested on 28 October on suspicion of being part of a terrorist organisation after media reports questioned whether he had been shielded by the security service.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/13/2005 02:25 ||
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#3
They dreamed of implementing Sharia in France and making Paris the capital of the new Caliphate. And they're furious that Allan has been unwilling to make it happen.
The French police announced Monday that they had arrested more than 20 people, including Islamic militants and petty criminals, in the Paris area who were believed to have been plotting terrorist acts in France.
A police statement described the arrests as "an important operation aimed at dismantling an Islamist network linked to a terrorist enterprise."
The police have not yet determined whether the group had precise plans for a terrorist attack. But they found it worrisome that the group included a blend of militant Islamists and petty criminals who were apparently committing common crimes as a way to raise money for terrorism, an intelligence official from the D.S.T. domestic intelligence service said.
Some of the suspects have criminal records, for charges including armed robbery and the possession of false documents, the intelligence official said.
"This was a rather important and rather worrying operation," the official said. "Some of them were very experienced thieves and armed robbers who intended to use the money for terrorist activities. They represented a concrete danger."
The official declined to be identified because it would violate the rules of his agency.
Most of the suspects arrested in predawn raids in several towns in the Paris region were Tunisian or Algerian, or French citizens of North African descent.
The operation, which had been planned for several weeks, was conducted jointly by the D.S.T., detectives from France's organized crime unit and members of the police paramilitary force known as RAID, under the instructions of France's leading antiterrorist magistrate, Jean-Louis BruguiÚre.
Among those arrested was Ouassini Cherifi, a French computer specialist of Algerian descent from a Paris suburb who served two years in prison and was released in 2004. He had been convicted of trafficking in false documents, including French passports, to facilitate the movement of militants to Afghanistan from Thailand via Pakistan several years ago.
It was not known whether the arrests had been timed before Christmas as a warning to would-be terrorists. French officials consider the Christmas season a period of especially high alert for terrorism.
The police have not determined whether the group was trying to help move foreign fighters to Iraq, although the intelligence official said some of them appeared to be linked to a network of individuals helping the insurgency against the Russians in Chechnya.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/13/2005 00:49 ||
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French police claim to have smashed an Islamic terrorism ring in the greater Paris region, arresting about 20 people in a string of dawn raids.
Police described Monday's events as a "major operation aimed at disbanding an Islamist network linked to terrorism", conducted as part of a probe by Jean-Louis Bruguiere, France's leading anti-terrorism investigating magistrate.
Among those arrested were individuals linked to previous terrorism investigations and common crime, the police statement said. Those detained remained in custody and police were searching a number of premises and internet cafes.
The operation was carried out by the DST domestic intelligence service, detectives from the organised crime unit and members of the crack RAID intervention squad.
Despite its strong opposition to the US-led war in Iraq, France remains the target of Islamic militants because of its intelligence links with the United States and Britain. It also has troops in Afghanistan helping to combat Islamic militants.
The head of the French police service said last July that the GSPC, a radical Algerian Islamist group, had been in contact with al-Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, about launching attacks in North Africa and probably France.
France has been on red alert, the second highest security level, since Islamic suicide bombers killed more than 50 people in attacks on London transport on July 7.
Parliament is debating Interior Ministry Nicolas Sarkozy's anti-terrorism bill, which includes a sharp increase in the use of closed circuit television surveillance and monitoring of mobile phone and internet cafe connections.
It also extends to up to six days the period for which terrorist suspects can be held before being placed under official investigation, and tougher sentencing for terror-related offences.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/13/2005 00:45 ||
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Following the visit of FBI director Robert Mueller to Turkey on Saturday, CIA chief Porter Goss followed in Mueller's footsteps and paid a visit to Ankara for talks with officials from the Turkish General Staff and the intelligence service MIT. Goss might also meet with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and some other government officials while on his trip.
the two visits took place soon after US Ambassador Ross Wilson announced that there were some secret aspects to the visit over cooperating in the fight against PKK. The visits have triggered speculations that the US might start a serious initiative for the neutralization of PKK after the Iraqi elections.
The talks between Goss and Turkish officials will focus on al Qaeda, and on developments in Iraq, Iran and Syria. The Turkish side will submit to Goss a file containing intelligence information about top-level PKK militants in Northern Iraq. Turkey will also convey to Goss its concerns about developments that might pave the way for the founding of a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq. Turkey will warn that such a development would increase the influence of al Qaeda terror network.
Goss is also expected to give to Turkish officials details about CIA planes that have landed at least once in Turkey.
Turkish Land Forces Commander General Yasar BÃŒyÃŒkanit was currently in the US for talks with US officials.
The visit of Goss was taking place in the aftermath of the meeting of Turkish MIT chief Emre Taner with Massoud Barzani, the President of the Kurdish regional government in Northern Iraq.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/13/2005 00:36 ||
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#1
... concerns about developments that might pave the way for the founding of a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq.
Ahh, our dear friends the Turks. The ones that were soooo helpful in the run-up to kicking Saddam's tyrannical ass.
#2
Yes ineed, those nice Turks who pounded the Kurds from the North while ole Saddam pounded them from the South. I wonder what they think about the recent Kurd and IS link up?
#3
These would be the same Turks whose elected government are allowing the smashing of liquor shops and the harassment of non-Muslims in the old-style Ottoman way? I'd suggest long, involved, and ultimately decision-free negotiations are appropriate, with periodic announcements to the local newspapers about why there's been no movement. Yes, the PKK are very bad news, but the Turkish people need to see the consequences of their choice; they are free to chose their own government, and we are free not to help that government out if it goes against our principles. Realpolitik is for fools.
BELGRADE - Serbia on Monday convicted 14 former Serb militia members of the massacre of nearly 200 Croatian prisoners of war and wounded during the battle of Vukovar in November 1991. A special Belgrade court found them guilty of carrying out the executions on a pig farm at the end of the three-month siege of Croatiaâs easternmost town by local Serb rebels backed by Yugoslav army troops, tanks and artillery.
Posted by: Steve White ||
12/13/2005 00:08 ||
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#1
Home town boys seem to be moving a lot faster than the High UN courts in dealing with Balkan war crimes. Another reason to do away with the failed organization.
After experiencing massive rioting throughout the country for about two weeks between late October and mid-November, senior French security officials have called upon senior Israeli police officials to give advice on crowd control in the mainly Muslim suburbs of the troubled towns and cities. Mideast sources revealed that the Israeli Police Chiefs, Gideon Ezra and Moshe Karadi, left their country headed for France on Sunday after an invitation by French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. The French Interior Ministry could not immediately confirm the invitation.
"Who? Nous? Ask for help from a shitty little country like that?"
The Israeli police force is viewed in Arab circles as being as repressive as the army and in October 2000 the police blatantly murdered 13 Israeli Arabs and wounded scores others who were protesting Israeli brutality in the Occupied Territories.
Think they might have something planned for Lyons, huh?
The two Israeli police officers, one Security Chief and the other High Commissioner, will spend four days in France and will meet with their counterparts, including the Republican Corps for Security (CRS), Frances elite anti-riot unit. The CRS was heavily involved in the October-November riots and in trying to contain the violence that was triggered after two youths died in an incident that police maintain they were not involved in.
And did one hell of a job, we might add...
But rumor that the two had died because of a police pursuit sparked off a chain reaction that hit over 20 cities and forced the government to enforce a curfew and invoke security laws that date from the 1950s and the war with Algerian separatists.
... since the situations were somewhat the same. Only it didn't work real well, did it?
Israeli press reports said that Ezra and Karadi would bring the lesson of the 2000 riots to the French, who are said to be "strongly interested" by the experience of the Israeli police. Daily newspaper "Haaretz" said that question of wide-reaching cooperation between the two police forces would be discussed during the meetings this week.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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#1
An old europen tradition: useful Jews can be tolerated.
#2
This is a very, very significant step for the French. Requests for assistance from the French will not have been limited to CT advisors. There will most certainly have been an intelligence sharing component. The muzzies will not think kindly of the Israeli CT tutoring and partnership, I assure you. Again, this is a big step for the French, something akin to the French saying **** you muzzies.
#3
There is a biiig difference between using the skills of one's inferiours and extending the hand of friendship to one's equals. Given the rhetoric and overt actions of the French government, this reeks of the former. I suggest Israel extract a painful (for France) quid pro quo for sharing the expertise of her law enforcement officers, along the lines of a long-term preferential trade agreement for Israeli products, overt support for Israel at the U.N., and cessetion of all open and clandestine contact and support of Palestinian terrorist groups -- including their political arms. Israeli law enforcement acquired their oh-so valuable expertise directly due to French support of her enemies.
#4
Israel should simply decline. Perhaps next time the French will be in a mood to treat them as something other than a shitty little country, though I doubt it. But let's find out.
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty to respect the right to life and end the practice of capital punishment.
Has he called on the murderers and torturers to respect the right to life and put an end to killing their fellow human beings?... I thought not.
Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty and the EU has a duty to convince the Americans to abolish it.
Maybe we could have an actual discussion on the subject. It'd be our duty to convince the Euros to reinstate it on principles of simple justice and of public safety.
"Most unfortunately, in the U.S. the 1000th execution was carried out. The fact that it almost coincided with Human Rights Day makes this fact particularly poignant," Borrell told the EU assembly. "Luckily the death penalty is disappearing throughout the world, but the number of executions carried out is still excessively high."
The death penalty as practiced today is as humane as we can make it, virtually the same as putting down your dog. If your dog is vicious and kills people with its big doggy fangs, you agonize over it, but you put the creature down, because public safety is more important than keeping Fideau, on the off chance he won't chew your face off like he did that lady in La Belle France. By the same token, when Jean-Pierre or Fritz or Clive or Wladimir goes off the deep end and is a danger to the rest of society, he should also be removed from the gene pool. He doesn't have to be drawn and quartered, or even dragged to the block in a tumbrel while the populace pelts him with fruit â though I notice the death penalty was a lot more popular back in the days when such things happened.
No amount of incarceration short of life is equivalent to what the victims of murder lost, and while krazed killers are serving their "life" sentences the victims â remember them? â tend to be forgotten by all but their close relatives. "Life" tends to be commuted, especially as the perp ages and becomes not a young tough guy but an old man, bent from his regrets over his wasted life. So he's sprung at some point short of "life," rather than being wheeled directly from his cell to the boneyard. Yet the victims never get the privilege of becoming little old man or ladies because they're still doorknob dead.
And of course putting the bad guyz down does cut the recidivism rate to zero.
In 2004, according to the human rights group Amnesty International, executions were carried out in 25 nations. In that year, 97 percent of all executions were performed in just four countries: China, Iran, Vietnam and the U.S. "But there is a glimmer of hope. U.S. society is changing its views on the death penalty," Borrell said.
Actually, I'd say U.S. society's views on the subject are swinging back toward the death penalty. I'm thinking Borrell spends too much time talking only to people who think like he does.
Capital punishment is not allowed in Europe, where no execution has been carried out since 1997. Various European institutions have pledged to fight for a "death-penalty-free" zone outside the continent. "For us in Europe, the right to life is an inalienable right. No one ever loses their right to life, no matter what they have done." Borrell said.
Except for victims, of course. But they don't count. They're dead, y'know.
Posted by: Fred ||
12/13/2005 00:00 ||
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Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty
Not true. There are a number of democracies that use the death penalty on a regular basis. In SEA, Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia come to mind. Unless of course you want to argue that the population has to be predominately white to count as a real democracy.
#4
Hah, wotta laugh. You're that little greek wimp, right? You left off the *sneer*, sonny.
Y'know, you're right, we're some bloody mean motherfuckers. We don' wag fingers, we bite 'em off. I have the complete set, myself.
Funny thing is that if we wanted anything you had, junior, we'd just take it. You're unarmed and unmanned - which is to say there's not a man among the lot of you. The neighborhood pussy 'round here would live fat off your kind. Safe as a baby - as long as he didn't turn his back to you.
The down side is you don't have anything we'd want. We have standards that go well beyond posturing and preening and simpering.
#5
In 2004, according to the human rights group Amnesty International, executions were carried out in 25 nations. In that year, 97 percent of all executions were performed in just four countries: China, Iran, Vietnam and the U.S.
THE BIG LIE!
So as to distort pwerceptions, to make us look like barbarians, this piece of Euroshit does not say that of the 97% of the 3800 executions in the world, 3400 were done by the Chinese.
This sorry excuse for a human being (Is he one?) should have said, "90% of the executions were done by the Chinese, 4% by Amadisnuts' Magic Mullahs in Iran, and 6% by everyone else..."
But of course, that is if he had any functioning brain cells. However, Josep Borrell, who will change his mind in his last milliseconds of life after coming to South Central L.A., and getting held up.... When he is dying agonizingly of a decapitating shotgun blast from a Crips Gangbanger, he will have that last epipheny.
But that is unlikely as his type doesn't want to soil his hands and deal with the real world like Mr. Owens, or the Yang family...
He has had, of course, like many of his type, probably certain parts of his brain tied off from any blood supply.
"This way, I don't have to be sympathetic to any victims of 'crime', only those poor men who were denied cookies and milk as a 7 year old, and had to take out their rage on a random target. You must understand their anguish. Victims aren't important, after all they are already dead."
#6
Mention should be made of the Japanese technique.
You are sentenced to die at an unannounced time over the course of a year. That is, without public notice, on any given day in a year, you will be executed.
Only after you have been executed is the public informed, and your body released to your family.
Since appeals are incredibly rare in Japan, and almost never successful, death means death.
#7
Why the European Parliament president feels compelled to tell Americans how to deal with first degree murderers is beyond me. I would think that the European Parliament has enough problems right now that he could keep busy with his official business.
"Tookie" will not be harming anyone else, Aris. I assure you that the American public is safe from him. You, however, are free to continue to inflict pain and suffering. After the Athens bomber gets a hefty death toll and is finally apprehended, we'll see if you are inclined to house and feed him for the next sixty years.
Did it ever occur to you that we still have the death penalty in some states because the majority of the citizens of those states still approve of it? Just as they still disapprove of gay marriage? Who are you and Josep Borrell to expect that your values should be universal values? And when the Turkish military starts pouring over your borders, will you be shooting at them with bullets or blanks?
#8
Aris, I agree that capital punishment doesn't deter murder, but that is because of the way it is carried out. Most convicted mureders die of natural causes (old age) before the appeals process has run it's course. For those that poo poo that public punishment doesn't deter crime I piont to that shining examples of Saudi Arabia and Singapore. Very harsh public punishment and very low crime rates. We have relatively light punishments and crime rates skyrocket. It wasn't until many states passed three-strikes laws that crime rates started to fall.
#9
Let's remember that in many Europen countries Marc Dutroux would be released, free to commit more rapes and murders since not only they don't have death penalty, they also consider life sentences as inhuman and in fact would not extradite a suspect if he could be sentenced to life.
For those who don't remember Marc Dutroux is that Belgian who had a business in child porn (1) who rapted, raped and killed early teen and preteen girls. The points is that for he was not a (perhaps curable) maniac. For him it was a business, a highly lucrative business and he will do it again the very same day he is released. And that is precisely what Aris and those oh so human abolitionists would do: release him and let his victims pay the price of abolitionts's feel goodism.
Society has duties toward the citizens, and specially toward the children. One of them is protecting them and if that implies executing criminals, so be it.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 11:05 Comments ||
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#11
I am personally against the death penalty, but I find it obnoxious that Europeans are so against executing the guilty, but have no problem euthanizing the innocent sick and elderly.
#12
Since Josep Borrell is Spanish let me tell two interesting histories about Spain's judicial system.
The first one is about De Juana Chaos a Basque terrorist involved in more than 20 murders. He was sentenced to thousands of years. He is totally unrepentant: he is a strong proponent of alliance of ETA with Al Quaida and he has told about the pleasure he feels when he sees the faces diformed by the pain of families at funerals. However the judge Pedraz (that one who tries to have US servericemen arrested) decreed his liberation after only 18 years. Less than one for every murder. A man who is willing to kill, or plan killings, and help mass murders and who takes pleasure in it. How is that possible? First of all law provides that no sentence could go beyond thirty years, second of all because getting university degrees also provided a reduction (BTW: the degrees were false) and that is how Pedraz could disregard the dangerosity of de Juana Chaos and release him. Fortunately, the order was appealed on the basis that de Juana Chaos had continued his activities while in prison. However a couple months later there was a woman as blood thirsty and as ready to kill again as De Juana Chaos who was released: this time the activity who allowed the reduction of her sentence was... playing indoor-soccer. May God care about her and De Juana's future victims because the Spanish lawmakers and judges will not.
The second story is about Ramon Baglieto. When he was in his twenties he saved the life of Basque baby. Nineteen years later, he was murdered in cold blood by the guy he had saved who in the interim had become a terrorist. After purging a pretty short sentence the terrorist has rented a shop... in the same building where lives the widow of his victim (BTW: it is not hazard since the shop sells glass for windows and he is carpenter ie not qualified) and is harrassing her in order to force her to leave it. No reaction of the Zapaterist authorities.
That is the Spanish judicial system. These are the people who are lecturing America about his legal system.
#13
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty to respect the right to life and end the practice of capital punishment.
There's only one thing to say about this: "Mind your own damned business."
#15
European Parliament president Josep Borrell called on the 76 countries still allowing the death penalty ...
Borrell said the United States is the only democratic state that makes "widespread use" of the death penalty...
1/76 or 1.3%. The EU better look to see why there are so little democtatic countries in the UN.
And do something about it!
#16
Interesting trivia from today's Seattle area: at the 0530 KMPS news there was ONE WHOLE SENTENCE devoted to 'tookie's(ptui!) execution. At 0600 the story was dropped and instead three sentences were devoted to a Bellvue- area ( adjacent to Seattle city) panty thief who had been repeatedly breaking into the same house and stealing these things. Guess tookie (ptui!) ain't so everlasting! BTW: EU: STFU!
#17
First of all I'll utterly ignore Huputch Gruling6514 (and thus by extension Frank G.) since they didn't raise any points at all. I'll only say that usually one would have to *hire* opponents such as them, just to create strawmen of macho imbecility. That they make their appearance free of charge... wow. Such generosity, guys. Thank ya.
Now, moving on to the *sentient* debaters:
This thread will be Arisified in 5, 4, 3, 2...
Can you advise me on how to answer the points raised, without committing the sin of Arisification?
"After the Athens bomber gets a hefty death toll and is finally apprehended, we'll see if you are inclined to house and feed him for the next sixty years.
Death penalty (including the money for appeals & so forth) costs more than housing and feeding the prisoner in question for life. So the issue of money wasted is a point *against* the death penalty.
(there's a sidepoint I could dispute here, regarding the role of terrorism in the countries of the deeply democratic West vs its role in a country which is in the pocket of Russia, but it's not relevant to the issue of the death penalty, and so I'll let it pass)
Did it ever occur to you that we still have the death penalty in some states because the majority of the citizens of those states still approve of it? Just as they still disapprove of gay marriage?
Yes, ofcourse. I never dispute your democracy on the issue of these points.
That's why people with firm convictions try to do their parts on changing your *opinions* over these issues, so that eventually a new majority will be formed which will both ban death penalty and permit same-sex marriages.
Some of course go to e.g. the judicial path, and feel that it's the courts' right and obligation to establish rules that go beyond the right of democratic majorities to alter. "Judicial activism" I believe you call it? I think that both these attitudes have merit in different situations -- and the fact that your constitution allows them both, seems to indicate that its writers thought likewise.
Either way, one thing that the fact of democracy definitely doesn't forbid is having people of other nations try to convince you that you are damn wrong. Democracy doesn't determine once-and-for-all which ideas are right and which must be condemned to the abyss. Democracy is a process where even unpopular ideas have a say.
Who are you and Josep Borrell to expect that your values should be universal values?
I'm a moral absolutist. That means that if a value (inside the state's purview) isn't universal, it's not a value at all, it's merely a personal preference (in which case it should probably not be in the purview of the state at all).
Democracy isn't the process that necessarily determines the *best* value, it's merely the arbiting mechanism that we civilised people have determined to use to solve our disputes. Your shouts of "democracy" doesn't make our disagreement go away -- it merely means that as long as you are with the majority your view will hold sway: and it also means that I will keep on trying to make your majority eventually become a minority.
Which (if current trends continue) is unlikely in regards to the death penalty, but is becoming e.g. ever more likely with the same-sex marriage issue.
It wasn't until many states passed three-strikes laws that crime rates started to fall.
Actually I read that the fall of the crime rates seems very strongly connected with the spread of abortion across the United States -- to quote from
Orson Scott Card"The fall in crime rates marches in lockstep with legalized abortion fifteen to twenty years before." and "1973 wasn't the beginning of legal abortions in the United States. There were states that legalized abortion several years earlier. And guess what? In those states, the crime rate began to fall exactly that number of years earlier. "
Bomb-a-rama> "Mind your own damned business."
During a war where (supposedly) America is trying to export its values to the Middle-east, thinking said values universal (and I'll agree with that), "Mind your own damned business" is the one thing you can damn well NOT say. You may disagree with which values to try to export, you may disagree about whether fellow democracies should be pressured and to which extent, but the one thing you can absolutely NOT say and hold any shred of self-consistency is "Mind your own damned business".
We'll either export a set of values or we won't. Perhaps America only wants to export democracy, gender equality, and capitalism, while Europe want to export democracy, gender equality, and lack of the death penalty, but either way "Minding your own damned business" is what you ain't doing either.
#18
Aris - with regard to your last statement, 3000 people in NY made it our business. If you mean that we should not be trying to give the Muslim world another way, I entirely agree. After the next Muslim outrage, we should just retaliate massively. No interference, just retaliation.
#19
Aris, we might listen to you a bit more if Europe wasn't in the sad state it is. The perception here is that Europeans see themselves and their institutions as superior to the US and our institutions. We see our institutions, not ourselves, as superior to Europen ones. we have a vibrant economy and most of Europe does not. I can go from where I live in Tennessee to Boston and people are pretty much the same. You can go from Greece to Germany and very little is the same. I do not believe a European Constitution will ever work because of the differences in all the members. Europeans will not put European identity above their individual countries. For the most part here in the US we put Country first and State second.I just don't see anything similar happening in Europe.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/13/2005 15:19 Comments ||
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#20
Well said, Deacon!
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/13/2005 15:25 Comments ||
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#21
Aris
I a soooooo disappointed you didn't reply to my posts despite the fact I mentionned your name in one of them.
And BTW, I were you, I would spend more energy to fighting death penalty in the Netherlads were thousands of elders and children are put to death every year without their consent or the consent of their family. They call it euthanasia, but in my place they call it murder and it is not mercy what motivates them but cutting costs for Social Security.
#23
Aris - with regard to your last statement, 3000 people in NY made it our business.
Don't be absurd, Iraq and the Middle-east is merely the most emphatical example, but US is supposedly promoting democratic and other western values (e.g. freedom of religion) around the world, ain't ya?
If you mean that we should not be trying to give the Muslim world another way, I entirely agree.
No, I meant exactly what I said, that we should be each trying to export our values like hell. Since America and the European nations are all democratic, we won't need to *bomb* each other to export said values, we can just fight it out with words, vocally tear into each other. We'll call you barbarians, you'll call us wimps. Isn't it nifty?
Aris, we might listen to you a bit more if Europe wasn't in the sad state it is.
In the issue of murder rates, Europe is in a much *much* better situation than America. Perhaps you should seek to emulate our strong points, even if we should try to emulate yours?
we have a vibrant economy and most of Europe does not.
Is that fact related to the murder rates?
(It's *possible*, I'll grant you that. It's possible that the socialdemocracy that has caused partial stagnation in the European democracy also provides the security net that causes less crime to go murderous -- possible but highly uncertain ofcourse.)
Either way I doubt you claim that abolishing the death penalty will cause your economy to stagnate. You'll note, I hope, that I've NEVER argued that your *economy* should emulate the European one.
#24
And BTW, I were you, I would spend more energy to fighting death penalty in the Netherlads were thousands of elders and children are put to death every year without their consent or the consent of their family.
JFM, I don't speak Dutch. I do speak English.
I a soooooo disappointed you didn't reply to my posts despite the fact I mentionned your name in one of them.
Well, I disagree with releasing murderers and especially repeat murderers. Does that answer your posts fully?
I also think that the burden of the possibility of wrongly executing the innocent more than outweighs the burden of the possibility of a murderer escaping to kill again. I'm willing to take up the guilt of an escaped convict's crimes, if you are willing to take up the guilt for wrongful executions.
#25
I'm willing to take up the guilt of an escaped convict's crimes
Revered one, thank you so much for taking so many potenial sins on your broad shoulders. The potential victims will be so relieved to know of your assumption of guilt.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:55 Comments ||
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#28
Aris, I didn't mean to infer that our economy is tied to the murder rate. it is relatively high here in mostly inner city areas due, in my opinion, to drug turf wars. Nor do I believe if we abolished the death penelty would our economy collapse. Don't be absurd. I do agree we shouldn't be at cross purposes with each other as regards exporting our shared values. You seem to believe Europe has moral superiority because the death penalty has been outlawed. There are those here who would agree and tose who disagree. personally I think the death penalty should be very rare. Life is sacred but those persons to whom life is not sacred and take others lives for their own gratification I believe they should forfeit their own life. will it bring back the dead victims? No. Tookie williams murdered 4 people because he could. Therefore, his own life should be forfeit.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
12/13/2005 15:56 Comments ||
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#29
at least since the advent of DNA testing....google away
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 15:56 Comments ||
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#30
The executed innocent will be so relieved to know you don't give a damn.
As will the victims be relieved to know you don't give a damn. What's the ratio of victims to innocents executed? Greater than 1 I'll bet. So you'd rather see more innocents die, eh?
#31
One has to admit that the subtleties of American Federalism, involving the distribution of REAL power between states and the Federal government, kinda throws the Euros.
As soon as enough states have decided that they don't want a death penalty, they'll propose an Amendment to the Constitution, vote it into force by the required margin, and that would be that. Such an amendment would state that there was an actual sea-change in the attitude of the American people, not in 5 judges' minds who would impose their beliefs on 300 million plus people by judicial fiat.
Then again, seeing who's doing the criticising, doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in the EU by fiat, judicial or administrative, by unelected officials, is just fine with them. Indeed, if we abandoned the death penalty in a manner that truly reflected the american people's will, it would seem to me that the EU officials would be a bit displeased, although I am sure they would show that displeasure amongst themselves in private.
#32
at least since the advent of DNA testing....google away
So in essense you are asking me "prove innocent those whom current scientific knowledge shows to be guilty".
Sorry, I won't play your game using your arbitrary rules. Instead, I'll tell you that your example proves my very point: With the advent of DNA testing, lots of death row inmates were proven innocent. Namely, new technology can prove someone innocent that all the previous knowhow in the world had shown guilty. This happened with fingerprint identification, and again with DNA identification, and who knows what other means will be discovered in the future, proving innocent those that are *currently* believed guilty.
Not all the current death penalty cases use DNA either -- in some cases there's no relevant DNA to be matched with or against.
Or were you perhaps opposed to the death penalty *before* DNA testing came around? Are you *now* opposed to death penalty being used in cases where no DNA evidence exists?
And I'm willing to bet the opposite, oh anonymous brave one. So in my view, it's you who are willing to murder innocents, just in order to satisfy your desire for revenge against the guilty. The fact that how what happened with the advent of DNA testing doesn't phaze you at all, is all proof to the same that I need. People in death-row proven to be innocent! None of you seems to feel that this meant the system was thoroughly broken: and nobody knows *how* broken it may still be, because no one has a way of knowing.
#34
America - you must be proven guilty - we don't have to prove innocent. Wrong laws, AK. I was for the death penalty, and with the advent of DNA testing, the "innocent man" argument is blown away like the fluff it is. You don't get the death penalty without overwhelming proof. I just wish the appeals happened quicker and the executions took less than 5 yrs from trial. Buh bye!
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/13/2005 16:17 Comments ||
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#35
Perhaps America only wants to export democracy, gender equality, and capitalism, while Europe want to export democracy, gender equality, and lack of the death penalty, but either way "Minding your own damned business" is what you ain't doing either.
Well it's OUR justice system, not yours. You don't have the death penalty? Fine. We do. Get over it.
We rank about #24. Far below #5 Russia, #7 Estonia, #8 Latvia, #9 Lithuania, #10 Belarus, #11 Ukraine, #15 Moldova, #19 Costa Rica (a shocker there, I must admit), and #20 Poland.
We're high in property crimes, but not as high as #3 Italy, or #4 Great Britain. Canada, peaceful, happy land to the north, had more property crimes than we did.
But, quite frankly, women are safer here in the States. Our rape rate doesn't compare to #2 Austria, #3 Finland, #4 Sweden, #6 the UK, #7 the Netherlands, #8 Canada, #9 Slovenia, #10 France, #11 Italy, or #12 Switzerland. We're #13, still too high, but not nearly as bad.
Assaults aren't a place for the Europeans to brag about, either. For all our supposed violent tendencies, we're ranked #11. The UK is #2 (all those soccer houligans, no doubt), #5 is Canada, #6 goes to Finland, #8 France, #9 Denmark, and #10 Belgium.
Notice something there in the stats, Aris? With the exception of Costa Rica and Canada, all of the countries listed above are European, many of which are EU members. And Europe is going to lecture us about crime and punishment?
I don't know....maybe if the EU had more of their criminals pushing up the daisies, they'd have our crime rates....just sayin'.
Pick any execution this year in the United States. Find one that has the possibility that an innocent man got fried by mistake. A lot of us here will give you an audience.
But, for the most part, I think you'll find that the vast majority of perps that take the long walk have criminal records as long as your arm and there's little doubt as to their guilt.
#39
David's Medienkritik has an interesting post on the propaganda being fed the Germans about the Tookster. I imagine it's much the same over old europe. Best to acknowledge the EU knows best and let them go headlong into their civil war. I want no part of it.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 17:14 Comments ||
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#40
DB, some of those stats look suspcious. They must refer to reported/paperwork filed crimes, because South Africa, where fully 1/2 the women are raped in their lifetime, is not on the list. Notice S.A. is high on the murder rate, which is harder to cover up. I would like to see the stats corrected for underreporting.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 17:25 Comments ||
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Can you cite evidence that Greek citizens are more likely to report crimes against their person and/or property to the authorities as [ie.] U.K. citizens do?
Can you cite evidence that Greek authorities actually have/keep more accurate records of crimes against persons and/or property as [ie.] U.K. authorities do?
Posted by: Red Dog ||
12/13/2005 17:41 Comments ||
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#43
Canada, peaceful, happy land to the north, had more property crimes than we did.
I think you meant to say "has a higher property crime rate".
I'd like to see those stats for individual US states or cities. Chances are, there'd be nothing to brag about.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 17:42 Comments ||
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#44
Rafael, yep, you are right about some cities being friggin' war zones (Camden comes to mind...). But overall, we're safer here than we are given credit for.
#45
Desert Blondie> Since it was an EU official that made the statements instigating this thread, let's compare only the EU nations, shall we? 25 EU member-states in all.
Murder rates: We rank about #24. We rank about #24. Far below #5 Russia, #7 Estonia, #8 Latvia, #9 Lithuania, #10 Belarus, #11 Ukraine, #15 Moldova, #19 Costa Rica (a shocker there, I must admit), and #20 Poland.
So, where murder rates are concerned, 4 EU member-states are worse-off than you, so I guess 21 EU countries are better than you.
Property Crime victims: 3 EU member-states are worse-off than you, so I guess 22 EU member-states are better than you.
Rape rates: 8 EU states are worse than you, so I guess 17 EU states are better than you.
Assault victims: 5 EU states are worse than you, so I guess 20 EU states are better than you.
Total crimes: In that one you gave a link that went to the *total*, rather than per capita graphs, so obviously you'd have more reported crimes, since you are a bigger country than any single European one. In the "per capita" listings, Italy, UK and Malta are worse-off than you (more reported crimes) while all the rest (22 I guess) are better than you.
What I don't undestand is why you gave me those statistics in defense of the American crime rates.
On the whole however I'll also agree with ed: the problem of underreporting may exist for many of these countries/crimes. It's therefore perhaps best to stick with the murder rates, which are probably the most accurate of all (and would probably be most influenced by the death penalty one way or another anyway, and thus be more relevant to the issue at hand)
Red Dog, I don't even know what that means, but if you are referring to me, do me the courtesy of addressing me by name, same as I do you. It's basic manners.
In this thread (up to the recent post, where the statistics given were provided by another, not me, so it's she who'll have to vouch for them) I've been referring to the issue of *murder rates* throughout, which seem to me to be both the most accurate, and most relevant. So you're essentially asking me to defend points I've never made.
#48
From executing murderers, shooting disabled airline passengers, euthanasia, to African poverty... I'd say no side of the Atlantic has a claim on moral authority*.
*Vatican excepted
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 18:40 Comments ||
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#49
DNA testing only overturned about a hundred death row cases, and those were old, pre-DNA-testing cases. More-recent cases and future cases will not have those problems as the technology is being applied before the trial.
#50
Aris, you speak from ignorance. Here is the 2000 international Crime Victims Survey of 17 indstrial nations.
The reason for setting up the ICVS was the inadequacy of other measures of crime across country. Figures of offences recorded by the police are problematic due to differences in the way the police define, record and count crime.
They surveyed 2000 people in each country with a 64% response rate. Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Overall victimisation
- Above 24% (victim of any crime in 1999): Australia, England and Wales, the Netherlands and Sweden
- 20%-24%: Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France, and USA
- Under 20%: Finland, Catalonia (Spain), Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland.
Car-related crime
The risk of having a car stolen was highest in England and Wales (2.6% of owners had a theft), Australia (2.1%), and France (1.9%). Japan, Switzerland, Catalonia, the USA, Finland, and the Netherlands show risks of 0.5% or less. Those in Poland, Japan, Belgium and the Netherlands were least likely to get their cars back - indicating proportionately more professional theft. Recovery rates were above 80% in Sweden, Australia, and the USA - indicating more thefts for 'joyriding'.
Burglary
The proportion of households who had a completed or attempted burglary was highest in Australia (7%), England and Wales (5%), Canada, Denmark and Belgium (all 4%).
Theft of personal property
Thefts of personal property will be heterogeneous in nature, but the highest risks were in Australia, Sweden, and Poland (about 5%-6% of people were victimised). ... Risks of pickpocketing were most common in Poland (4%). Risks were also comparatively high in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Catalonia, and England and Wales (about 2%). As previous sweeps have found, risks were lowest outside Europe: in Japan, Canada, and the USA.
Contact crime
An overall measure of contact crime was taken as robbery, assaults with force, and sexual assaults (against women only). The highest risks were in Australia, England and Wales, Canada, Scotland and Finland: over 3% were victims. This was more than double the level in USA, Belgium, Catalonia, Portugal, and Japan (all under 2%). In Japan the risk of contact crime was especially low (0.4%).
Robbery
Robbery was comparatively uncommon in all countries. Risks were highest in 1999 in Poland (1.8%), England and Wales, and Australia (both 1.2%). By far the lowest risks were in Japan and Northern Ireland (0.1%). On average, just over a third of victims of robbery said the offender(s) carried a weapon of some sort - in most cases a knife. There was a higher than average use of weapons in the USA, Catalonia, Scotland, and Portugal. Although not very statistically robust, the data indicate that guns were used relatively more often in Catalonia and the USA.
Sexual incidents
For all countries combined, just over one per cent of women reported offensive sexual behaviour. The level was half that for sexual assaults. Women in Sweden, Finland, Australia and England and Wales were most at risk of sexual assault. Women in Japan, Northern Ireland, Poland and Portugal were least at risk.
Assaults and threats
Taking all countries together, 3.5% were victims once or more of assaults or threats in 1999. Risks were highest in Australia, Scotland, England and Wales (about 6%) and Canada (5%). Risks were lowest in Japan, Portugal, (under 1%) and Catalonia (1.5%).
Finally: Police performance
People were asked to say whether or not the police did a good job in controlling crime in their area, and whether the police were helpful. Police performance was most favourably judged in the USA and Canada. Satisfaction levels were also comparatively high in Scotland and Australia. The poorest judgements were from this in Portugal, Poland the Netherlands, Japan and Catalonia.
You can read the rest and the breakout tables at the above link.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:15 Comments ||
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#51
*scratches head*, I must be missing something: it just appears to me that Aris is not as disturbed about a serial murderer killing innocents deliberately as he (and the Euros) are about a government mistakenly killing an innocent at the end of a long and arduous process of trying to establish guilt or innocence based on a presumption of innocence. It appears to me that it doesn't matter to them WHAT is done as much as WHO does it. Which explains why the US gets more grief than Saddam Hussein, even though the latter killed far more people than the former. And why Aris begged off addressing the Dutch Euthanasia issue with a rather lame excuse.
#52
BAh. I figured out why Aris said what he said about the euthanasia issue: he wants to make his judgment based on primary sources, and he wouldn't know how to enter a search term in Dutch to Google so he could use a translation program. Scratch my last line in the previous comment.
#53
Rafael, you are right. Crime in the US is way overconcentrated in poor and minority city areas while most suburbs are very safe. Much of it can be traced to the drug trade and the need for territory and money drugs require. Is the solution legalization or execution of dealers? What we are currently doing isn't working.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:27 Comments ||
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#54
I feel that the death penalty if carried out in a timely manner, would make a big difference in our crime rate. The fact that we hold folks for so damn long behind bars, makes people think they'll get away with the murder. They feel it is worth the risk.
This recent deal with Tookie was just outrageous. For all of the so called movie stars pleading for him, and how he turned his life around, blah blah blah. That's just too much BS for me. He should have been terminated many years ago.
Posted by: Jan ||
12/13/2005 19:33 Comments ||
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#55
Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Oh dear lord. I don't think any European country can be lumped in with Albania.
The wonders of (meaningless) statistics. Liechtenstein's exports per dollar GDP is the highest in the world. Does this mean Liechtenstein is some omnipotent industrial superpower? No. Same with the crime stats.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 19:35 Comments ||
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#56
Rafael, that was a joke. I screwed up the italics. Should be: The reason for setting up the ICVS was the inadequacy of other measures of crime across country. Figures of offences recorded by the police are problematic due to differences in the way the police define, record and count crime.
They surveyed 2000 people in each country with a 64% response rate. Greece was not surveyed, but would be lumped with Albania.
Posted by: ed ||
12/13/2005 19:42 Comments ||
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#57
Is the solution legalization or execution of dealers?
Definitely NOT legalization. I like the Singaporean approach. Beat the guy to shit with sticks.
There wouldn't be a need for executions if prison was a scary place to be, literally. Right now, it's like a badge of honor. At the very least let's make them earn that badge. Hard time should mean hard time. Like in Portugal in Salazar's time. Cells just large enough for you to stand in, no sitting. Or one way flights to Rock Island. If you can swim back, you're free!
Or...you can have the European way...suspended sentences. You must admit Aris, Europe is waaaaay too soft on crime. It's one thing to be against the death penalty, quite another to be lackadaisical about crime. But that's what you get with socialism.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 19:49 Comments ||
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#58
Ed,
I looked over the ICVS stats at the link you provided. A few notes as to why I look at these stats with distrust:
Since I know a bit about Poland, I'll use it as an example.
Example: Percentage of homes with burglar alarms and special door locks: The survey concludes: "The main differences were that Denmark and Poland came fairly low in terms of precautions taken, although burglary risks were comparatively high." That's simply false. They probably did not take into account that people in Poland generally have double doors. The first door is usually a heavy iron door. Alarms are also common. "Grilles" on windows are (or were) common also, which the survey claims they are not.
Feelings of safety on the streets: "Those in Catalonia, Australia and Poland were most anxious about being out alone at night..." In Poland's case, this should be evaluated against the historical background. Poland under communism was particularly safe. You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon). After communism collapsed, Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day.
Comparing answers to such questions is meaningless without a broader (and better) context than the survey provided. Only the raw numbers are meaningful.
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/13/2005 20:56 Comments ||
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#59
And the last part of this thread sums it up nicely, bringing us back to one reason it might be a good idea to continue with the death penalty, Substitute a few words about our times in Rafael's paragraph, and you have:
"You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon)...[after the LA riots] Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day."
When bangers don't believe there will be a price for the murders they commit, a perception of lawlessness with impunity prevails. That is called incentive. Cyber Sarge has it right in #8.
This sentence was the ideal sentence-show the young that all the liberal hand-wringers in the world do not relieve you of the yoke of past crimes you've committed. This sentence makes clear that the sh*t he pulled is deadly serious.
And for those who maintain he was innocent and was an important force for good in gang areas-he had an opportunity to show that his loyatlies to the gang didn't come before his loyalty to the country's citizens. He declined. I am proud of the way Arnold addressed the clemency request.
#60
And the last part of this thread sums it up nicely, bringing us back to one reason it might be a good idea to continue with the death penalty, Substitute a few words about our times in Rafael's paragraph, and you have:
"You could count on the Police for keeping order (they did not spare the truncheon)...[after the LA riots] Police powers were severely curtailed. A perception of lawlessness took hold, which continues to a lesser extent to this day."
When bangers don't believe there will be a price for the murders they commit, a perception of lawlessness with impunity prevails. That is called incentive. Cyber Sarge has it right in #8.
This sentence was the ideal sentence-show the young that all the liberal hand-wringers in the world do not relieve you of the yoke of past crimes you've committed. This sentence makes clear that the sh*t he pulled is deadly serious.
And for those who maintain he was innocent and was an important force for good in gang areas-he had an opportunity to show that his loyatlies to the gang didn't come before his loyalty to the country's citizens. He declined. I am proud of the way Arnold addressed the clemency request.
#61
The great majority of crime done in this country is done by repeat offenders, the usual suspects. If the death penalty does nothing else, it certainly deters repeaters. Whats not to like about taking that type of scum out of circulation?
Not sure that EU sentences are ones to emulate. Imagine the maximum sentence of 30 years mentioned in the thread applied to hearty men like the one who sawed off a preteen's forearms in the US for kicks a few years back. Or 8 1/2 years for premeditated murder and cannibalism as the gent in Germany did. Europeans are none to take us to task for inappropriate punishments.
#63
Sorry, Aris, I had a social engagement to go to.
The reason I was bringing up those stats was simple. Don't play cute with the "members of the EU" vs "ones that aren't yet...give them time" distinction. You were implying that Europe has far better crime rates and last time I checked, all of those countries I listed (except for Costa Rica and Canada) were in Europe.
Considering there is a huge crime problem in your own backyard, the idea of some goofball like Borrell lecturing us on how to run a criminal justice system really irritates.
While I don't agree with the death penalty on moral grounds, looking at the stats makes me wonder if it might just be the right thing to do after all.
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