Vice President Dick Cheney and Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah shared some common views about factors in the oil market that have pushed prices to record highs, a senior U.S. official said on Saturday.
Cheney and Abdullah held about 4-1/2 hours of private, one-to-one meetings on Friday at the king's farm on the outskirts of Riyadh, where the vice president also met the Saudi oil minister. "There was I think a lot of commonality in their assessment about the structural problems confronted by the global energy market now and some discussion of probably the way forward, how we work together to try and stabilize the market," the U.S. official told reporters traveling with Cheney.
The talks covered "what could be done shorter-term, but probably more about what's necessary to do over the medium to longer term," he said.
The official would not give details of the discussions between Cheney and the Saudi king, a U.S. ally and leader of the world's top oil exporter, calling them confidential and private conversations.
Cheney's trip follows a visit to Saudi Arabia by President George W. Bush, who in January called for OPEC to increase production, but the crude oil exporters' group decided to hold production steady. Saudi Arabia is the only OPEC member that can easily add significant amounts of extra oil to the market. Record-high oil prices have dealt a blow to the U.S. economy, which has also been contending with a housing market crisis.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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Interesting story on how FARC might be on the verge of defeat.
PEREIRA, Colombia -- Hungry, desperate and afraid for his life, Pedro Pablo Montoya shot the commander he was supposed to protect. He then severed the commander's right hand -- as proof he'd killed one of Colombia's most wanted men -- and deserted the once-powerful rebel group to which he had pledged allegiance.
The slaying this month of Manuel Jesús Muñoz, a member of the ruling directorate of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, was a dramatic signal that a rebel group known for its resilience is engulfed in an internal crisis that could lead to its implosion after four decades of armed struggle.
In a country where most people cannot remember a time of peace, Colombians are for the first time raising the possibility that a guerrilla group once thought invincible could be forced into peace negotiations or even defeated militarily. Weakened by infiltrators and facing constant combat and aerial bombardment, the insurgency is losing members in record numbers. The FARC, as the group is known, lost 1,583 fighters in combat last year, its columns are plagued by command-and-control problems, and popular support is evaporating, the government of President Álvaro Uribe says.
Since 2000, the Uribe administration has received $5 billion in U.S. aid, mostly for military and anti-drug programs -- more than any other government outside the Middle East. The money has helped it revamp the Colombian army, paying for new helicopters and training for elite troops, although rights groups remain concerned about abuses, including the killings of civilians.
The most serious problem the FARC is facing is not guerrilla deaths or the loss of territory, but mass desertion, according to political analysts, military officials and former guerrillas interviewed this month. Many said desertions have badly hurt morale and provided the military with important strategic information about the hermetic group.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/23/2008 00:55 ||
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#1
"If the situation continues like this, the FARC will be finished," said Ivan, 33, who deserted from the group Dec. 27 after serving as the No. 2 commander of a unit in the coffee-growing west. "It won't be tomorrow, and it could take years, but it will happen," said Ivan, who asked that his last name not be used out of fear the FARC might kill him.
Why don't you just print where he sleeps while you're at it.
This kills me about the MSM. As long as it isn't their own personal hide on the line, they basically give identities and facts away. But if they are told they will be discovered and shot at if they give away their location, absolutely nothing useful leaks out until after they are out of harm's way. Amazing.
#2
Tamil Tigers, FARC, AQ. It's doesn't work well when the other side finally gets the motivation to hunt you down relentlessly. Warfare on the cheap doesn't work as well when you alienate enough of the local population to either aid the other side or step aside to allow them to get at you. Thus the concept of 'consent of the governed'. Its not all about 'votes'.
The Chinese government has defied international anger at its crackdown on Tibetan independence protests, accusing the Dalai Lama and his "splittist clique" of being out to destroy the Olympics and damage China's international reputation.
Now just hard how would it be to damage their reputation ...
Ethnic Han Chinese were the real victims of the Tibetan riots, ...
... the Beijing authorities say, and its security forces will respond severely. This month's riots were the most intense in 20 years, shaking Lhasa and surrounding areas and leaving Beijing to repair the worst damage to its public image since the tanks rolled in central Beijing in 1989, massacring pro-democracy activists.
"Evidence shows that the violent incidents were created by the 'Tibet independence' forces and masterminded by the Dalai Lama clique with the vicious intention of undermining the upcoming Olympics and splitting Tibet from the motherland," thundered an editorial in the People's Daily yesterday.
The Dalai Lama who this weekend was in Delhi for a meditation workshop that the actor Richard Gere was due to attend denies he incited the riots. Last week the Nobel Peace Prize winner suggested he might resign over the unrest, which goes against his professed policy of trying to find a peaceful way of gaining more autonomy for Tibet. He also says he supports the Beijing Games.
Which doesn't make a bit of sense. Then again, it's easy for him to call for his people to bear more suffering while attending a workshop outside of China.
Tibet's exiled spiritual leader has said he would meet the Chinese leadership, even in Beijing, if he believed there was a concrete indication it was ready to enter dialogue.
The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, said he had been told by Chinese officials that they were prepared to meet the Dalai Lama under certain conditions, but yesterday's blast in the People's Daily appears to signal that there is to be no compromise with him nor with the international attempts at mediation.
Meanwhile demonstrators in Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama's Indian base, continue to protest at the Chinese actions, which they claim have resulted in the deaths of up to 100 people, in contrast to China's official Xinhua news agency, which said 18 civilians and a policeman died in Lhasa. Waving Tibetan flags and carrying banners protesting against the Beijing authorities, the marchers have brought the town to a halt on a daily basis.
"They are not giving back the bodies. That is why no one knows how people are dead," said one protester, Dolma Tsering. On efforts to draw international attention to what has happened, she added: "We have to do something. We have to make a noise." Another protester, Lopsong Dawa, said: "We are only trying for peace, but China is lying. One day we will get our freedom."
Hundreds of truckloads of soldiers and armed police have poured into Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China, such as Gansu and Sichuan provinces, and human rights groups have warned of waves of arrests and possible torture of those picked up in the crackdown. Police in Lhasa issued a "most wanted" list of 21 suspects and posted their pictures on the internet.
Footage of ethnic Han Chinese being attacked by Tibetans in Lhasa has dominated state media in China. There have been reports of Lhasa residents mourning Han victims, feel-good stories about Tibetans praising Chinese investment in the Himalayan region and images of Tibetan schoolchildren being taught their native language in schools one of the biggest criticisms of China has been the way it is damaging local culture. The media also warned Uighur Muslim separatists, in the restive north-western region of Xinjiang, against following the Tibetans' lead.
Xinhua reported that China had broad international support for its "legitimate actions to handle the violence in Lhasa". The English-language China Daily said Western coverage was "biased and sometimes dishonest", aimed at portraying China in a negative light, and accused foreign media of running "untrue" reports.
But I thought you just said you had 'broad international support' ...
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/23/2008 00:37 ||
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#1
I'm surprised that so many people from all over the World are rooting for Tibet! Especially since the ground swell against China seems to be idealogicaly neutral.
It seems the same folks reject China's land abitions and are calling for a boycott of the olympics in China at the same time.
You can count me in that group.
[the only thing that bothers me is that total load of sh*t from Georgia did the same thing back in '79]
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/23/2008 7:18 Comments ||
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#5
The danger for the Chinese central government isn't just the Tibetans. There are other provinces with 'issues' as well. If the central government doesn't shut down the Tibetan problem quickly, it will show weakness and thus the disorder spreads. If they Tienanmen Square the Tibetans, they risk losing face if the rest of the free world boycotts. Somewhere in the Imperial City capital some party official who pushed the Olympics as a great demonstration of Chinese grandeur and show is getting a new seat someplace about several hundred meters further away from the center of power. Any one outside of a 'yes' man lackey knew something like this was probable.
#6
"Dalai Lama out to destroy Olympics and damage China's international reputation"
Olympics, hell - he's out to destroy the Chinese government. And as for "destroying" your "international reputation," you're doing a bang-up job of that by yourselves.
Best of luck, Dolly Dalai! :-D
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
03/23/2008 10:40 Comments ||
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#8
Of course the Dalai Lama is trying to destroy the Olymipics. Everyone knows Buddhists are violently opposed to men and women wearing short pants and anything that vaguely resembles fun. Or am I confusing Buddhists with Islamist jihadis?
#9
If they Tienanmen Square the Tibetans, they risk losing face if the rest of the free world boycotts.
How would we ever know? Seriously - there's no foreign press in Tibet right now. They could be gunning down monks by the thousands and we would have no idea.
#10
Where was the foreign press at the first event? The means of capturing an event and getting the word out has taken leaps since then. One chip can bring the whole mess down.
#11
Tibet will only be free when China is free. The Tibet rebellion hits at the heart of the Chicom machine. I hope that this rebellion spreads like wildfire to other places, like Burma, though that would be a long shot.
The depressing thing is that our State Dept will be trying to gloss over the rebellion, rather than take the high ground, and be a beacon of hope, like the US has been for years to oppressed people. Well, it is up to people to lead, as the leaders have lost their moral compass.
The Chicoms cannot afford to have the Tibetan rebellion take hold and be sustained, so the PLA will crush them like bugs. However, there are consequences to that behavior, which is the destruction of their precious showcase Oleo-Lympics.
The President needs to stay home and end the illusion. Consumers need to hit the Chicoms in their pocketbooks. This is not as easy as it sounds, but the power of the pocketbook can be a powerful tool.
I hope that this Tibet thing is a start of something big that will help all the people of China, though I have no illusions of a miracle.
Hey, I can hope. Just keep Condi and the rest of the Dept of State turncoats on a tight leash.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/23/2008 16:46 Comments ||
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#12
Maybe this is just middle age grumpiness catching up with me, but I read this headline and immediately think, who the hell cares if the olympics gets destroyed?
I think it stopped being worthwhile long long ago, it's just another showcase for spoiled professional atheletes and the government and corporate doctors who try to figure out how to make their steroid injections undetectable. The only reason it's important is that we continue to pretend it's important. But it always gets caught up in us having to pretend the psychopaths-du-jour aren't.
#13
The President needs to stay home and end the illusion. Consumers need to hit the Chicoms in their pocketbooks. This is not as easy as it sounds, but the power of the pocketbook can be a powerful tool.
Sadly, AP, I'm afraid there is too much money at stake. Bush will attend the Olympics. The fat cats told him to. It hurts real bad to know that Jimmuh showed more integrity when the Olympics were held in Moscow in 1979. At the time I thought it was pretty lame that that was all he could do but now I see that Bush can't even do that much.
Don't look for McClintobama to say anything about it either. Amazingly, they left it for Nancy Pelosi. Just stunning.
The MSM, as usual, will remain silent.
For most people, this entire situation is nowhere near their radar screens. They don't look at labels to see where things are made. They just buy. And they will sit in front of their TVs all fat, dumb and happy to watch the Olympics.
Posted by: Abu Uluque ||
03/23/2008 17:37 Comments ||
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#14
I know that, AU. It is depressing, but you can do what you and your family can, and you can tell your friends. Every great movement becomes something, born for a few flashing neurons. Most of the time, nothing happens, but it may be. Tianniman Square did not change the world, but got some people thinking. Tibet may not be the tipping point, but it may help. Remember it took hundreds of years to pull out of the dark ages. It took less than 100 years to end the Soviet Union, well maybe not so good an example. There are things that are just bigger than us, but we are a part of them.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/23/2008 20:13 Comments ||
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Taiwan's newly-elected president has pledged to establish better economic and political ties with China. But there's a catch...
Ma Ying-jeou said he would like to work towards a peace treaty with Beijing, but would only do so if China removed missiles pointed at Taiwan. Maybe the rockets could be used to terrorize rowdy college kids holding demonstrations.
He was speaking after a comfortable victory over Frank Hsieh of the ruling Democratic Progressive Party. Official results gave Mr Ma an advantage of nearly 17 percentage points over Mr Hsieh. He polled 58.45%, with Mr Hsieh getting 41.55%, on a turnout of 76%. Do we need a recount? Are there any chads hanging?
Mr Ma, of the Kuomintang party, had stood on a platform of economic reform and improving relations with China. Speaking to reporters after the vote, he said that a peace treaty with China would not take priority over economic normalisation. Severely snipped. I don't know how to do a page 49 thing. Or if I am even able to.
#1
Ma has his work cut out for him - whole generations of mainland Chin had been taught by the CCCC since 1949, now CPC, that TAIWAN is "Forever Part of China", that it will NOT + NEVER receive any kind of formal independence, plus that pragmatically China needs Taiwan for MIL-TRADE, WARM-WATER PORT(S) ENTRY INTO WESTPAC. Ditto in many aspects for China vv NORTH KOREA.
Next Tuesday, at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Ottawa, one of Canada's most prominent white supremacist propagandists, backed by the legal team that defended Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel, will put the country's entire human rights bureaucracy on the witness stand.
I may have mentioned this before, but I'm still curious as to how "human rights" came to represent something other than individual liberty. Through some sort of antilogic, we've arrived at a point where "human rights" means strangling the freedoms of most of us to ensure the primacy of the opinions of some of us. Occasionally it's in a good cause -- I'm certainly not fond of holocaust deniers and their assaults on logic and truth -- but it seems to me that you've got to allow most of that sort of thing on the assumption that the right to express your opinion is nearly absolute. Once that freedom is curtailed it's like the loss of virginity: you don't get it back. Instead you end up with the straightjacker of political correctitude, which leads in its turn to rule by the holier-than-thou.
After months of closed-door wrangling, a constitutional challenge, an appeal to federal court and a blizzard of legal motions, Marc Lemire can now interrogate, under oath, two investigators of the Canadian Human Rights Commission about why they posted provocative comments on his and other ultra-conservative Web sites. Much credibility hangs on their answers.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
The CHRC tried last year to block the testimony of its own investigators by invoking section 37 of the Evidence Act, normally used for national security cases, citing threats to their personal safety. Facing a review by a higher court, they capitulated, but demanded the hearing be closed to the public.
This week, however, a one-man Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, Athanasios Hadjis, ruled firmly against the commission. He wrote that its legal gamesmanship "gives me pause to question the soundness of the Commission's invocation of public security concerns."
And so the very fact that the hearing room door will be unlocked is a hard-won concession from Canada's beleaguered human rights bureaucracy. To judge from the Internet chatter of white supremacists and merely conservative journalists, it will be standing room only.
sunlight is the best disinfectant
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/23/2008 7:24 Comments ||
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#2
Well said, Fred. That's exactly what these "human rights" clubs in Canada are about: throttling any dissent to their point of view and silencing any speech which may depict them in less than a view favorable to their own cause. A subversion of the democratic ideal.
Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign is trying to clarify comments by former President Clinton that seemed to question Barack Obama's patriotism - comments an Obama aide likened to Joseph McCarthy. Clinton's campaign said the comments were being misinterpreted and quickly posted a clarification on its Web site. But retired Air Force Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak said he was disappointed by the comments and compared them to those of McCarthy, the 1950s communist-hunting senator.
The former president made the comments while speculating about a general election between his wife and Republican John McCain. "I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country," said Clinton, who was speaking to a group of veterans Friday in Charlotte, N.C. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."
McPeak, a former chief of staff of the Air Force and currently a co-chair of Obama's presidential campaign, said that sounded like McCarthy. "I grew up, I was going to college when Joe McCarthy was accusing good Americans of being traitors, so I've had enough of it," McPeak said.
Clinton campaign spokesman Phil Singer rejected the comparison. "To liken these comments to McCarthyism is absurd," Singer said. He said McPeak was "clearly misinterpreting" the remarks and suggested that might be an intentional effort to divert attention from a recent controversy involving controversial statements by Obama's former pastor.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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Joe McCarthy was accusing good Americans of being traitors, so I've had enough of it," McPeak said.
Many of them were General, and I've had quite enough of you.
#2
Let's remember whgat was the count opf McCarthy's "atrocities": death penalties: 2 two (the Rosenbergs for smuggling nuclear technology, jail terms: < 12 less than a dozen, governemnt employees fired: about 150 one hundred and fifty. At he same time on the other side (that side ruled by comrade Stalin that the "victims" of MacCarthysm were trying to help and have it extend its grip on America) the numbers of killed and deported was in the hundreds of thousands or even millions.
#6
McPeak, just for the record also had a hand in the original bribe-tainted Boeing Tanker lease deal.... he kinda soft pedaled any 'official' USAF involvement and / or knowledge.
#7
But retired Air Force Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak said he was disappointed by the comments and compared them to those of McCarthy, the 1950s communist-hunting senator.
Like most air force personnel who served under him, if McPeak said the sun rose in the east, I'd have to get up early to check. Maybe the most hated Chief of Staff ever. Imfamous for putting us in the "Bus Driver" uniform, which lasted about 5 minutes after he left the building.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/23/2008 17:33 Comments ||
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#8
Tyranny of the left starts to unravel... more at 11. About time.
Posted by: Typical white person ||
03/23/2008 18:37 Comments ||
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#9
#7 Steve - I was one of those junior assholes kids who walked up to Air Force officers and asked them what time the bus left.
Sorry.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
03/23/2008 20:00 Comments ||
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The Washington Post is aligning its Fact Checker with Rich Noyes of NewsBusters. On Saturday's front page, the Inside box reads: "Four Pinocchios! Hillary Clinton has talked of coming under sniper fire during a 1996 trip to Bosnia. Our Fact Checker shoots that tale down." In the Michael Dobbs "Fact Checker" feature, four Pinocchios means not just fact-shading or exaggerating, but "Real whoppers." (It wasn't prominently featured on the washingtonpost.com home page.)
Dobbs wrote on Saturday that "Clinton's tale of landing at the Tuzla airport "under sniper fire" simply is not credible. Photographs and video of the arrival ceremony, complete with contemporaneous news reports, tell a very different story. MRC offered up the evidence out of our cavernous video archive. Dobbs offered up his own journalistic travels and other Post reporters in casting grave doubts on her story:
As a reporter who visited Bosnia soon after the December 1995 Dayton peace agreement, I can attest that the physical risks were minimal during this period, particularly at a heavily fortified U.S. air base, such as Tuzla. Contrary to the claims of Hillary Clinton and former Army secretary Togo West, Bosnia was not "too dangerous" a place for President Clinton to visit in early 1996. In fact, the first Clinton to visit the Tuzla Air Base was not Hillary, but Bill, on Jan. 13, 1996.
Continued on Page 49
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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Hey, this kind of storytelling works for Hugo, so why not Hillary?
The Indian Air Force battered Pakistani tanks in their already-botched ground offensive at Longewala in the 1971 war, primarily because they were not supported by their own Air Force despite urgent pleadings.
- The Pakistani Army helped and trained Mizo insurgents in East Pakistan led by Laldenga.
- An unsuccessful coup attempt was made to overthrow President Yahya Khan, who handed over power to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto soon thereafter.
These are some snapshots from a book authored by a former Pakistani Brigadier, who himself arrested Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from his Dhanmondi residence in Dhaka on March 25, 1971. The book also delves into graphic details of the situation prevailing in the then East Pakistan, which finally led to the surrender of the Pakistan Army to the Indians in 1971.
The Way It Was Inside the Pakistan Army by Brig. (Retd.) Zahir Alam Khan has been dubbed by its Indian publisher Natraj as the first honest and no-holds-barred autobiography of a soldier in the Pakistan Army.
Brig. Khan, a trained commando, himself led the forces into Longewala, an operation which was meticulously planned. Under Operation Labbaik as it was called, the Pakistani forces started from Reti and entered India from the Tanot area. They were to have taken over Longewala, Ramgarh and Ghotaru and then proceed to capture Jaisalmer.
However, the author said, that as there was no support to the Pakistani troops from their own Air Force, the Indian Air Force Hawker Hunters had a field day bombing Pakistani tank formations as these were rendered sitting ducks. The IAF, which appeared a little after 7oclock, flying without any opposition from the Pakistan Air Force, had four Hawker Hunters ... Anything that moved was immediately attacked, otherwise the Hunters circled for their endurance and before returning to their base, attacked the tanks that had been located.
Countering commentators on the battle who claimed that the 22 Cavalry did not use its anti-aircraft machine guns, Brig. Khan said these had got jammed by the desert sand and five tank commanders were killed trying to cock the jammed machine guns with their feet.
On the Mizo insurgency, Brig. Khan said, They were being supplied food by the Government of Pakistan just across the border from Assam. The Mizos were led by President of Mizoram, Laldenga whose government consisted of various ministers and commander-in-chief of the army. One of them [who] identified himself as Paulian, the Foreign Minister of Mizoram, met Brig. Khan and informed him that there were about 2,000 men and 3,000 non-combatant civilians living in the Pakistani territory and these food supplies had stopped.
He said that during discussions with his seniors I recommended that we allow them to come to Rangamati [in East Pakistan], supply them with food and then use them to clear the [Chittagong] Hill Tracts. This suggestion was accepted by General Tikka Khan, who headed the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan then.
I returned to Chittagong and informed Paulian that the Mizos could start coming to Rangamati, we would supply food for their army and the non-combatants, they would have to place their army under my command. Paulian was satisfied and left immediately to inform his government.
Regarding the coup attempt against Yahya Khan, the former Brigadier said that several top Army officers had drafted a letter asking President Yahya to resign and hand over power or else 6 Armoured Division would march on Rawalpindi and enforce his removal.
Major General M.I. Karim, the then GOC, was asked to sign the letter and [he] did so. Col. Javed Iqbal and Col. Alim Afridi flew to Rawalpindi and delivered the letter to the CGS [Chief of General Staff] who conveyed the contents to President Yahya.
Following this, pro-Yahya sections in the Army decided to airdrop commandos on the division headquarters with plans to seize it. Thus, the coup attempt was foiled.
Eight years after the 1971 war, the author spent some time with the former Army Chief, Gen. Abdul Hamid Khan, in Lahore and had a private conversation. I asked him why, after announcing on the 16th [December] that the war in West Pakistan would continue, a ceasefire was announced two days later. His answer was that the Generals were not obeying orders.
Besides operational details, the former Pakistani Army officer provides insight into the internal politics in the force, the overzealousness as also cowardice shown by certain officers, some of whom later rose to very senior positions in the Pakistan Army echelons.
As there was a delay in launching an operation during the 1971 war, a Pakistani officer himself drove a rail rake carrying tanks at a high speed causing a major accident.
The author also spoke of one officer who used to jump into the trenches even before bombing would begin. The officer had also got trenches dug up outside his office for no reason, Brig. Khan said, and added that the officer later rose high in the military hierarchy.
Posted by: john frum ||
03/23/2008 16:07 ||
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India on Sunday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable surface-to-surface Agni-1 missile from the Wheelers' Island, a defence base in the Bay of Bengal on Orissa coast.
"It was the second user's trial of this sophisticated missile," officials associated with the trial said. The last trial was conducted on October 5, 2007 from the same launch site.
The indigenously built sleek missile with a range of 700-800 km and mounted on a mobile launcher, had a perfect launch from the launch complex no. 4 of the Integrated Test Range at 1015 hrs hours, defence sources said.
700 km is just enough range to hit anywhere in Pakistan. Single stage, solid fuel, carbon composite casing, rail/road mobile with a maneuvering RV.
The 15 metre tall Agni-1 missile, weighing about 12 tonnes, is capable of carrying both conventional as well as nuclear warheads of 1000 kg.
Personnel from the country's newly raised Strategic Forces Command (SFC) along with scientists from the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) carried out Sunday's trial in order to ensure familiarisation with the end operator, that is a special missile group 334 raised by the Indian Army, the sources said.
Posted by: john frum ||
03/23/2008 09:10 ||
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Excerpted from the writer's reflections on a recent visit to Jerusalem.
It was the run-up to Easter week when I reached Jerusalem. There, on the Via Dolorosa, numbers of priests, monks, and nuns and accompanying pilgrims were doing the Stations of the Cross, a penitential walk up a twisty and uneven alley. You see Catholics, Evangelicals, Greek Orthodox, Ethiopians, Armenians, in what looks like a representation of Christianity and its history of splits and dissent. And passing them, jostling, shouting, evidently proving their indifference to this religion and trying to distract, are porters, youths pushing hand-carts, merchants, salesmen, tourist guides, in a vast hubbub that militates against prayer.
Someone likely to know told me that there are in fact only 14,000 Christians in Jerusalem, including native Arabs and the international religious community. Not so long ago, there were many more. Muslims are taking over the Christian quarters of East Jerusalem as well as outlying Christian suburbs like Beit Jala and Beit Sahur.
Bethlehem is a town once eighty percent Christian, but where Christians are now a disappearing minority.
One of the most frightening moments of my life was in Cherchell on the Algerian coast when I went to look at what I thought was a French colonial church, but in fact had been converted to a mosque. Out poured the worshippers to fling stones, and my daughter and I had to run for it.
Meanwhile the newspapers publish photographs of Mikhail Gorbachev flanked by Franciscan friars on their way to the church of Saint Francis of Assisi. The former general secretary of the Soviet Communist party, a party dedicated to stamping out religion as the opium of the people in the famous sneer of Karl Marx! Gorbachev a self-declared devout Christian! What an example of Christianitys power of regeneration, and in the end, it seems to me, that is what the imams and the mullahs and bin Ladens are really afraid of. Lots of conversions to Christianity, recently.
A major survey that claims to represent one billion Muslims around the world has found that the majority favours democratic rights and representative government, rather than any of their radical alternatives.
The overwhelming majority of Muslims strongly feels that the West disrespects both Islam and Muslims, a perception that is broadening the gulf between the worlds Muslims and the West. The United States in particular is seen as exhibiting cultural disrespect for Islam, as well as being out to gain political domination of Muslim countries. The acute conflicts in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan are major factors that deepen the feeling that the US has little interest in helping their resolution in a manner which ensures that justice is done.
The results of the survey conducted by Gallup Inc, which forms the basis of a book Who Speaks for Islam by John Esposito and Dalia Mogahed - were released on Thursday at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Esposito and Mogahed, the authors of the book Who Speaks for Islam found that when asked in 2002 what they knew about Islam, 54 percent of Americans said not much. In January 2007, the number of those who gave the same answer to the same question had risen to 57 percent. When Muslims were asked by Gallup what they most admired about the West, the majority replied, Technology, liberty and democracy. When the same question was put to Americans, they could find nothing about Islam that they admired. When asked if the 9/11 attacks were justified, 92 percent of Muslims in the 35 countries polled answered in the negative. The 7 percent that justified the attacks could not quote a single verse from the Quran to support their view.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
Muslims support Islamization, and back one time democratic elections to that end. The only secular powers in the Muslim countries are the military and quasi-military regimes. And they are declining.
Muslims define "liberty" only as that which is not prohibited under sharia. Freedom of conscience, expression and association are anathema to a Muslim.
#4
I'll bet the problem is that wherever Muslims go, they bring their baggage with them, including their 5% (or whatever) radicals. These are the problem, and they will always be there unopposed because it's built into the Holy Krayon's DNA to at least tacitly support if not accept their radicalism.
#6
The overwhelming majority of Muslims strongly feels that the West disrespects both Islam and Muslims
I do not disrespect both Islam and Muslims. I think Islam and Muslims are morally and philosophically retarded. So, contempt is probably a better word than disrespect.
#11
The primitive view of democracy: I finally get to be top dog after suffering at your hands for so long... with a Sharia gloss to give Allah's sanction to the whole thing. Oh, and we'll all instantly be as rich as Americans (completely missing the need to work both hard and smart -- and the fact that I, myself, am not rich only proves the point).
The leader of Germany's Jewish community said on Friday she was surprised Pope Benedict could have allowed a new version of a Good Friday prayer for the conversion of Jews.
It's a Catholic thing. You wouldn't understand.
Charlotte Knobloch,
Charlotte Garlic?
president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, told Reuters Television she could not fathom Pope Benedict putting forward the new decree because he experienced discrimination against Jews in Germany as a young man. "I would have assumed that this German pope, of all people, had got to know first hand the ostracizing of Jewry," she said. "I could not have imagined that this same German pope could now impose such phrases upon his church."
Sorry. I don't have a dog in the fight, but it seems they've been saying the same prayer for a coupla thousand years. It hasn't worked, but it's a reasonable request of the Lord. By the Pope's lights, what they're asking for is a good thing for the Jews. And there's no "or else" involved with it.
Jewish groups complained last year when the Pope issued a decree allowing wider use of the old-style Latin Mass and a missal, or prayer book, that was phased out after the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which met from 1962 to 1965. They protested against the re-introduction of the old prayer for conversion of the Jews and asked the Pope to change it.
Beats the hell out of "Death to the infidels! Kill the Joos!"
The Vatican last month revised the contested Latin prayer used by a traditionalist minority on Good Friday, the day marking Jesus Christ's crucifixion, removing a reference to Jewish "blindness" over Christ and deleting a phrase asking God to "remove the veil from their hearts". Jews criticized the new version because it still says they should recognize Jesus Christ as the savior of all men. It asks that "all Israel may be saved" and Jews say it keeps an underlying call to conversion that they had wanted removed.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/23/2008 00:00 ||
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#1
"Jews criticized the new version because it still says they should recognize Jesus Christ as the savior of all men."
We Catholics (and Christians in general) insist on the belief in Christ as part of conversion and salvation. Its fundamental to our faith. We pray for the conversion of ALL peoples - Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and yes, Jews too. Jews have a special place in our faith because they were the seed from which our religion grew. We see our religion as the fulfillment of your prophecies. We acknowledge the God of Abraham, and the old covenant, and wish everyone to participate in the New Covenant established by Christ that fulfills the Abrahamic covenant and establish a broad new one to all people, Jews and Gentiles alike. So of course we hope and pray that people will convert.
And this conversion is individual, and voluntary. Unlike the Muslims we do not use swordpoint to convert. Nor do we shun people who do not wish to convert, not in the modern Catholic Church. If you do not wish to be one of us, then we do not want to force the issue.
We appeal to the reason and heart of the individual, and work with him or her throughout the conversion process, allowing them to back out at anytime prior to the actual batptism. In the normal form of adult conversion, we require months of education and study, and introspection, as well as scrutiny, before we move to complete a conversion.
As a matter of fact, we just finished with such a set of classes for RCIA, that started in September of last year.
But requesting that we do not declare Christ to be the Savior of all? That is what we believe! You want us to change a core tenet of our faith because you have the stupidity to be offended by it?
Moron. Bigot. Idiot. What you ask of us is like asking a Jew to deny that God Moses and Abraham ever existed and declaring the whole of the pentateuch to be falsehood. Its that fundamental.
Tell ya what - go work on the bigger problems first: talk to the Muslims and see if you can get them to change their book about slaughtering Jews. Seems slaughtering might be a tad more important to be concerned with than conversion. We can discuss conversion once you and the Muslims get the "kill the Jews" stuff worked out, like we Christians already have done.
#2
And this conversion is individual, and voluntary.
Even in Cortez times. Even in the Cortez expedition: Diaz del Catillo, one of Mexico's conquerors say in his "History of the conquest of
New Spain" says "Only voluntary conversions are valid" (Now asking Spaniards to allow cults who between other things made massive human sacrifices, massive as in the tens of thousands victims for a single event, and allowed canibalism was another thing).
BTW, even in Inquisition times there were no forced conversions in continental times. You were free to remain a Jew... as long as it was out of Spain. The thing who was not tolerated was people
who falsely converted while still practicing Judaism or Islam in secret.
BTW, Diego Lainez, cofounder and second general (head of the order, directly under the Pope) of
the Jesuits (the more papist of any catholic order) was son of converted Jews and Tomas de Torquemada (the most well known of the inquisitor) had a coverted jewish grandmother.
Two small notes: AFAIK jesuits were rarely or never members of inquisition tribunals. That was domenican thing. So Diego Lainez cannot be accused of headingan order who prosecuted Jews.
The Spanish name for a burned thing is quemado, when the thing is feminine (Spanish and French have no neutral) it is "quemada". Thus Torquemada
looks like a shortening of "Torre quemada" (burned tower". An appropriate name for someone whose job
involved burning people.
BTW: Fourt years of witch hunt in protestant Europe: 40,000 victims. A thopusand per year.
Three centuries of Spanish inquisition: twelve thousand victims (fourty per year). Even inquisition courts were better than "justice" imparted by hysteric mobs.
Most people got far lighter sentences: eg the grand father of Saint Theresa of Avila had to walk around the city for a number of Sundays wearing a distinctive garment who identified him as a sinner. Nothing more.
#3
TW I hope you don't take offense but I see nothing wrong in praying for the conversion of Jews or even just as I see nothing wrong in praying for Democrats seeing the light and becoming Republicans.
Ditto for preaching Jews to convert to catholicism and Democrats to vote GOP.
#5
We see our religion as the fulfillment of your prophecies.
TW I hope you don't take offense but I see nothing wrong
We do not, OldSpook. Nor Islam, which sees itself as the true replacement of both our faiths, nor Baha'i, which sees itself as the replacement of all three. Do you pray for the conversion of all Muslims by name, too, led astray as you must think they've been by their false prophet?
JFM, it's rude. As for those who would convert me, when we lived in an inner suburb, they'd ring our doorbell starting 9 a.m. every Saturday. Now that we live in an exurb, they tend to come at dinner time. And not one who's rung my doorbell or accosted me in my front yard has known enough of Jewish prophesy and the regional and philosophical history at the time each book of the Old and New Testaments were written to give me a sound reason, besides his or her own faith, to question my own understanding of the matter.
I don't pray that Democrats become Republicans. Our country is better off when different ideas fight it out in the public square. I don't even want them to vote Republican if they believe the Democratic candidate would be better for the country. I want to challenge and be challenged until our ideas and candidates are refined and strengthened, like the progression from ore to iron to steel.
No, the Catholic prayer for conversion is not like the convert/submit/die choices offered by Islam. But it smacks mightily of claiming to fully understand God's mind on the subject. Nor, if it had been discontinued for over 40 years, was there need to reintroduce that particular prayer on this particular anniversary of the Christian god's crucifixion at the judgment a Roman governor so odious he was recalled by the emperor Nero for abuse of power.
So let's approach this differently: by what reasoning does this most erudite and subtle of popes justify decreeing this prayer be resurrected now, after more than a generation?
#6
tw, I stopped having problems with people ringing my doorbell wanting to witness to me when I started offering them a beer or a glass of wine. I have no problem with people letting their lives be a witness to their faith but I do not want people to try to convert me. I do not pray in public. What I have to say to God is between God and me. When asked how they should pray didn't Yeshua say, "get ye in a closet" ? When Yeshua told the parable of the poor sinner and the rich man praying in the Temple the poor man went to a corner to be by himself.
Posted by: Deacon Blues ||
03/23/2008 15:54 Comments ||
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#7
And there were, too, forced conversions. If I recall, the last Jewish child taken by the Catholics as their own, because his nanny had secretly baptized him, was still alive and a monk in Rome when Mussolini took office. I don't think, JFM, that you would contend a toddler had voluntarily chosen? Tortures, too, as many Jews were only allowed to leave Spain, and later Portugal, after being tortured to reveal the treasure they were firmly believed to have hidden.
Were they the only ones? No, of course not. By law in Arab Muslim countries, the orphans of Jewish or Christian families are considered Muslim, and given for adoption to Muslim families, a much more common situation than secret baptism by maids. Thus an Egyptian friend of mine was adopted at birth by his uncle. He was grateful for that custom when he was orphaned at 14. Even yet in Egypt Coptic children are taken when the father dies.
#8
Deacon Blues, I assign homework -- books to read and questions to ask their minister (no Catholic has ever proselytized to me), that they might better understand what they're trying to sell. Besides, I figure at that point they'll go home for the night, and leave my neighbors in peace.
#9
TW. People tortured in order to force them to tell where was the treasure that was not about conversion
and probably not Church's action or even initiative. You can see it as a case of jesuitry/hipocrisy but the Church didn't execute people: those found guilty
were handed to the King's justice. I think but I am not sure that same applied to tortures. Anyway I am not and was not justifying the expulsion of
Spanish Jews.
About Spanish antisemitism in that age. The Arab invasion had succeeded due to betrayals in Christian ranks. Legend says it was a Count Julian whose daughter had been raped by the King.
However it is told that after the battle and the death of the King it was Jews who opened the doors of Toledo (the Visigothic Kings had persecuted them. BTW they also had persecuted Catholics) to the invaders. Christians remembered that (true or false), remembered that it took eight centuries to liberate Spain and preferred to forget that
the main treason had risen from their ranks.
Phew! I'm human, it seems.
Though times are tough now, Americans believe the economy will bounce back by next year, according to a survey released Friday. A national CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll found that 60% of respondents think economic conditions in the United States will be "good" next year, as opposed to the 75% who think the economic situation is "poor" now.
"Most people realize that the economy has cycles of ups and downs," said Wachovia economist Sam Bullard. "Fortunately, the last two recessions were some of the shortest on record, so in 2009 we should be pulling up out of this."
Of the more than 1,000 American adults surveyed in the poll, conducted March 14-16, 83% said they are "confident" that they will be able to maintain their standards of living next year, and 85% are "confident" they will keep their jobs over the next six months. Americans also showed faith that they would be able to pay off their future debts, with 90% of respondents demonstrating confidence they would be able to meet their monthly mortgage payments for the duration of the mortgage.
But Americans are less optimistic about their long-term financial situation. Only 23% felt "very confident" about paying for their children to attend their choice of college. Furthermore, only 29% said they were "very confident" about saving enough money to live comfortably when they retire, and just 44% believe they will be able to retire when they want to. According to the poll, 58% want to retire sometime in their 60s.
A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
Vice President Dick Cheney and Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah shared some common views about factors in the oil market that have pushed prices to record highs, a senior U.S. official said on Saturday.
The Chinese government has defied international anger at its crackdown on Tibetan independence protests, accusing the Dalai Lama and his "splittist clique" of being out to destroy the Olympics and damage China's international reputation.
Next Tuesday, at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Ottawa, one of Canada's most prominent white supremacist propagandists, backed by the legal team that defended Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel, will put the country's entire human rights bureaucracy on the witness stand.
Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign is trying to clarify comments by former President Clinton that seemed to question Barack Obama's patriotism - comments an Obama aide likened to Joseph McCarthy. Clinton's campaign said the comments were being misinterpreted and quickly posted a clarification on its Web site. But retired Air Force Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak said he was disappointed by the comments and compared them to those of McCarthy, the 1950s communist-hunting senator.
The Washington Post is aligning its Fact Checker with Rich Noyes of NewsBusters. On Saturday's front page, the Inside box reads: "Four Pinocchios! Hillary Clinton has talked of coming under sniper fire during a 1996 trip to Bosnia. Our Fact Checker shoots that tale down." In the Michael Dobbs "Fact Checker" feature, four Pinocchios means not just fact-shading or exaggerating, but "Real whoppers." (It wasn't prominently featured on the washingtonpost.com home page.) 
India on Sunday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable surface-to-surface Agni-1 missile from the Wheelers' Island, a defence base in the Bay of Bengal on Orissa coast.
