Article

2005-03-23 Israel-Palestine

Greek Orthodox church accused of selling Arab areas to Jooos

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Posted by seafarious 2005-03-23 11:48:05 PM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 ROFL!!! Positively byzantine.

Posted by .com 2005-03-23 1:43:09 AM|| 2005-03-23 1:43:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Yeah, but what's at stake is bigger than the story suggests.

The old city of Jerusalem, inside the ancient walls, is roughly divided into 4 quarters and for decades the peace has been kept there when people have more or less respected that division.

The "Arab quarter" of old Jerusalem is where all the Christian churches are, especially the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The latter is co-used by many denominations and is considered by many believers to be an especially holy place.

Jewish settlers have been taking over apartments in the Arab quarter for over a decade, often quite aggressively. Older yeshiva students are particularly aggressive - when I was there in 87 they literally knocked me down because I didn't automatically get off the sidewalk when they approached. It *is* afterall THEIR land as they see it and all the rest of us are second-class or scum.

That attitude got a Yeshiva student who had moved into an Arab apartment knifed while I was there.

For many centuries, the "Arab" quarter was just that - Arab Christian. Then the Palestinians began threatening any who didn't convert to Islam, until there were few Arab Christians left. After that, Palestinians joined the church, but began agitating for the Palestinian political cause. The result is that you saw "Orthodox priests" happily supporting the descration of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem by Palestinian Moslems.

Now that same faction is accusing those who don't support them of "selling land to Jews". Could be that such a sale was contemplated - as I mentioned, some Jews have been obnoxious and aggressive about displacing families who have lived in the city for centuries. But on the other side is the attempt by many Palestinians to use the Church against the Jews.

The riots after that knifing in 87 kept me from being able to visit the Mount of Olives and the churches there, just outside the old walls. I doubt I'll ever get back to have a 2nd chance at them.

Bethlehem is 7 miles from Jerusalem, BTW.

Posted by anon 2005-03-23 7:03:13 AM|| 2005-03-23 7:03:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The whole business of "Holy Sites" seems to me to be the flash point for a lot of confrontation. People will worship the site and not the ideals of the person whose site it supposedly is. I would never desecrate some faith's holy site because it would be against my sense of good manners but I still don't believe a cave or piece of ground is "Holy". It seems to me people go on pilgramages and hajs because they seem to think they will be more "Holy" themselves if they do. Not all people who go to these sites feel that way but I'm betting a lot do. I agree with anon that the stakes are a lot bigger than the story suggests. The Jews and Palestinians fight over Jerusalem because their respective religions tell them they have a devine right to do so. Several Christian factions fight over who controls the Christian "Holy" sites because they feel they are the only ones who can truly care for (ie, get the money and glory associated with)them. These things will never be resolved until the whole area is totally destroyed, then there will be nothing left to fight over.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-03-23 7:58:09 AM|| 2005-03-23 7:58:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Anon, interesting perspective, but the notion that a particular ethnic group has a right to a particular place as small as an apartment makes the modern world unworkable.

Posted by phil_b 2005-03-23 8:06:54 AM|| 2005-03-23 8:06:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 phil, that is exactly why there will never be peace in the middle east until one side or the other is obliterated. Neither side can forget thousands of years of slights and persecutions. In the book of Samuel King Saul wanted to test David's loyalty so he commanded David to bring him the foreskins of 200 Philistines. This, of course, entailed the murder and mutilation of 200 men for no other reason than King Saul ordered it. The Jews equally have stories about Persian, Egyptian, Babalonian, et al, persecution and enslavement. Even King Harod ordered the killing of all first born males of age to be Jesus in order to save his Kingly status. The idea that "this apartment is mine because God gave this land to my people" is not a concept without merit to either side. "This land is mine, God gave this land to me" is not mere lyrics to a song to either side. The idea of "Arab" areas and "Jewish" areas in Jerusalem is not much different from a lot of major US cities that are divided along ethnic lines. These lines are blurring in the US, but will not in cities like Jerusalem.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-03-23 9:19:52 AM|| 2005-03-23 9:19:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 DB: In the book of Samuel King Saul wanted to test David's loyalty so he commanded David to bring him the foreskins of 200 Philistines.

The Arabs aren't the Philistines, who were conquered by Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar, enslaved and disappeared as a distinct ethnic group. Palestinians are Arabs, who originated from the tip of what is now Saudi Arabia. The conflict between Israel and the Muslim world is something that began in the modern era - Jews want to hang on to their ancient historical claim to the land, and Muslims believe that their millennium-long occupation of what used to be Roman Palestine (named deliberately by the Romans after the Jewish nemesis) means they own it. What I find interesting is that Christians don't attach anywhere near this kind of significant to the Christian holy places in the Mid East, most of which are under Muslim occupation. I think Muslims have too much time on their hands.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-03-23 4:09:19 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-03-23 4:09:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 1. 4 quarters to the old city jewish, Christian, muslim, armenian. was that way throughout 20th till 1948, when jews were expelled. Israeli govt resettled Jews in J quarter after 1967. yeshiva guys claim that the actual pre-1948 j quarter was larger, and try to push north into muslim quarter. They are obnoxious, but the issue can certainly be settled, and there are proposals to do just that. The devil (so to speak) is in the details.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-23 4:18:53 PM|| 2005-03-23 4:18:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 DB - most Israeli jews are not very interested in the Yeshiva crowd. They wont give up the current Jewish quarter, or the Western Wall - but everything else will be subject to discussion.
No obliteration necessary.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-23 4:20:31 PM|| 2005-03-23 4:20:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 re phillistines - Judea and philistea were at war. Something not unknown in other parts of the world. Asking for foreskins was not much different than asking for scalps as proof of death, something that happened in North America, IIRC. Asking for foreskins was a clever way of insuring David had actually killed Philistines, and not attacked some of Sauls own troops (not such an unreasonable fear, since Saul was afraid of David claiming the throne)

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-03-23 4:24:05 PM|| 2005-03-23 4:24:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 My point about Jerusalem being taken over by one side or the other is that, true, a vast majority of Jews don't care if Palestinians live there but the vasy majority of Palestinians DO care that Jews live there. The Palestinians, and also Muslims, wont be satisfied until all Jews are eradicated from Jerusalem. There are Palestinians and other Muslims who can live peacefully with the Jews but it is my opinion they are in the minority. It is true the Philistines were not Arabs but the Palestinians do seem to identify with them as they were in conflict with the Jews. The Jews say the Messiah will return after Soloman's Temple is re-built but that entails destroying the Dome of the Rock Mosque. That will only happen if and when Islam is no longer a force to be reconed with.
Liberalhawk, thanks for your insight on the reasons for Saul's order. That does seem reasonable.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2005-03-23 5:54:00 PM|| 2005-03-23 5:54:00 PM|| Front Page Top

18:12 anon
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