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2005-10-13 Afghanistan-Pak-India
Earthquake aid may help US with support in Pakistan
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Posted by Dan Darling 2005-10-13 00:21|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Earthquake aid may help US with support in Pakistan

yep, just like da mayor & friends in Nawlens.
Posted by Red Dog 2005-10-13 01:59||   2005-10-13 01:59|| Front Page Top

#2 In the Pakistani mindset, aid from America is not a gift to be thankful for. It is a birthright.

There will be no gratitude. They will accept the money and curse America at the same time.

Read this short excerpt from a 1949 book by Margaret Bourke-White.

Posted by john 2005-10-13 06:42||   2005-10-13 06:42|| Front Page Top

#3 ""America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America," was Jinnah's reply. "Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed" -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- "the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves." He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. "Russia," confided Mr. Jinnah, "is not so very far away."

This had a familiar ring. In Jinnah's mind this brave new nation had no other claim on American friendship than this - that across a wild tumble of roadless mountain ranges lay the land of the BoIsheviks. I wondered whether the Quaid-i-Azam considered his new state only as an armored buffer between opposing major powers. He was stressing America's military interest in other parts of the world. "America is now awakened," he said with a satisfied smile. Since the United States was now bolstering up Greece and Turkey, she should be much more interested in pouring money and arms into Pakistan. "If Russia walks in here," he concluded, "the whole world is menaced."

In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam's thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. "Surely America will build up our army," they would say to me. "Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in." But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. "No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan."

This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan's own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state -- a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.

Jinnah's most frequently used technique in the struggle for his new nation had been the playing of opponent against opponent. Evidently this technique was now to be extended into foreign policy. ...."
Posted by john 2005-10-13 06:46||   2005-10-13 06:46|| Front Page Top

#4 Excellent insights there - Thx, john! The woman certainly could write - and her analysis seems spot-on. Stillborn would be one way of viewing the reality of the dream.
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 06:52||   2005-10-13 06:52|| Front Page Top

#5 Whoa - didn't realize you were going to go ahead and excerpt from the excerpt, lol. I was a-readin' when you were a-boldin'. :)
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 06:54||   2005-10-13 06:54|| Front Page Top

#6 Her analysis was incredibly perceptive. The state she described in 1949 is the Pakistan of 2005.

The day Jinnah died in a broken down ambulance at the side of the road could be yesterday.

Before partition there was the call to jihad and the mass killings.
The first prime minister Liqiat Ali Khan blackmailed the West (and India) with the threat of the muslim radicals and their jihad.
"Apres moi le deluge"
Successive Pakistani rulers have used the same tactic.

Almost sixty years later, the desire to dismember India is still there. "Give us Kashmir". Only with a fragmented India could the desire for muslim domination of the subcontinent be expressed: Pakistan and its army running roughshod over small client states, each one surrendering to dhimmitude.

The sheer incompetence of the administration is still there. The Pak government might as well be still occupying buildings in Karachi. Their praetorian state is incapable of managing natural disaters.
They failed abjectly in the 1971 cyclone. They are failing now.
Posted by john 2005-10-13 07:17||   2005-10-13 07:17|| Front Page Top

#7 Yep. Gratitude is one of the more pronounced characteristics of Muhammad's followers.
Posted by gromgoru 2005-10-13 08:00||   2005-10-13 08:00|| Front Page Top

#8 "The state she described in 1949 is the Pakistan of 2005."

Spot on. The only differences I can see is that they "acquired" nukes (which is a whole 'nother discussion) and figured out a way to become important enough, because Bush didn't pursue lame $10M missiles fired at empty tents policies, to crawl into America's pockets to pilfer some scratch. What a pathetic lot.

They are, simultaneously, the one "state" it's easiest to imagine becoming smokin' glass-lined craters and, yet, the one "state" that I'm not sure how I'd choose to handle - if the choice was mine and I had to act within reality - beyond trying to seal them off and promote the idea that they kill and eat each other. Sigh.
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 08:16||   2005-10-13 08:16|| Front Page Top

#9 Yeah, Bush, Condi & Co. will still be dreaming of eternal friendship ... right upto the point when the I*****c b**bs go off in several friendly US cities near you ... honestly, do they breed politicians for stupidity or does it just come natural?
Posted by Cleting Jomotch9068 2005-10-13 08:45||   2005-10-13 08:45|| Front Page Top

#10 Excuse me, CJ? Want to illuminate that just a tad? You're saying "Bush, Condi & Co." are what, exactly?
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 08:51||   2005-10-13 08:51|| Front Page Top

#11 We're in for it now. Just wait for Indymedia or a Kosmonutter to swipe the graphic here as "proof" of the neocons e-e-evil intentions...

ROTFLMAO!
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-10-13 10:24||   2005-10-13 10:24|| Front Page Top

#12 "In the Pakistani mindset, aid from America is not a gift to be thankful for. It is a birthright.
There will be no gratitude. They will accept the money and curse America at the same time."
They are so diabolically schizoid! They accepted American 5-8 helicopters but refused India's. They also accepted American investments through BCCI to finance their nukes, only to turn them over to Iran and NK to use on us. I think we need to put some contingencies on our aid and at least insert some agents into the area for a little look-see for Binny.

Posted by Danielle 2005-10-13 11:03||   2005-10-13 11:03|| Front Page Top

#13 Here is an Amazon link to buy her book -- 1 used, 2 new, pricey but it's 50 years old, after all.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2005-10-13 11:10||   2005-10-13 11:10|| Front Page Top

#14 Hint: if you buy thru this link, I believe Fred gets a little change in the ol' tip jar. In fact, if you enter Amazon thru the tip jar link on the front page, Fred gets a piece of whatever you're shopping for. I think.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-10-13 11:25||   2005-10-13 11:25|| Front Page Top

#15 Following 9/11 with H.E. President George Bush giving a "you are with us or against us" proposition, Musharaff had no other option but to cooperate with US in its war against islamic terror. Musharaff in his address to his nation on 19 January 2001 says "...Pakistan's failure to cooperate with United States in a military attack against Afghanistan would damage its strategic assets, including its nuclear capability and a fledgling missile program...". He goes on to lament "...Our decisions at this time in history could have grave and far-reaching consequences. Our survival could be endangered..." Therefore Musharaff partnering the civilized world in its war against islamic terror is only tactical. For all one knows he might be running with the hare and hunting with the hound! With him, we should be prepared for any eventuality even if we have to erase him along with his countrymen.
Posted by Prof. Alex Wordsmith">Prof. Alex Wordsmith  2005-10-13 11:40||   2005-10-13 11:40|| Front Page Top

#16 I have no doubts, whatsoever, that Bush & Co are fully aware of Pervy's motives.

Let's try the opposite approach...

Why is it, I wonder, that people think they get it, but poor little President Bush doesn't? His record speaks volumes, his actions have been (and still are) remarkable. Where, pray-tell, would we be without him? Just roll that thought around a little and some of the compulsive ankle-biting should disappear. I find it fascinating to read those whiney IWWIWWIWI posts. Who's short-sighted, half (or far less) informed? Who can, honestly, match up against Bush in deeds? Who can honestly say he hasn't surprised the hell out of them - several times since 9/11/01?

Perfect? Nope, but then no one else is either - and I can see none who would've even tried, much less done, a fraction of what he has. I don't love the guy, but I sure as hell respect his brass and, in retrospect, his vision thingy. The bummer, as always, is that he's got to work within reality - a set of constraints that we don't have - and know little or nothing about. Both big thinkers and small thinkers, owe this man and his team a debt of gratitude. Fuck 'em if they can't see it or acknowledge it. Petty pussies are a dime a dozen. Those who reshape history, on the other hand, are not. We're some very lucky mofo's.
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 11:57||   2005-10-13 11:57|| Front Page Top

#17 If not Perv (at this moment), then who? Qazi? Fazl? A turban-to-be-named-later?
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-10-13 12:01||   2005-10-13 12:01|| Front Page Top

#18 What is IWWIWWIWI ?

Who can, honestly, match up against Bush in deeds?

A. Lincoln.
Posted by Throgum Elmoluse7582 2005-10-13 12:02||   2005-10-13 12:02|| Front Page Top

#19 IWWIWWIWI = I Want What I Want When I Want It.

The warcry of the Three Yr Old on a binge.

TE -- Lincoln was interesting. Lol, wanna discuss the suspension of habeas corpus during the NY Draft Riots? Don't misunderstand me, I know Lincoln was a class act. He faced very serious dangers and met them head on - improvising along the way, changing the rules, at times, to meet extraordinary challenges. What he faced was a political crisis.

The threats we face in the modern era are actually far more dangerous - they involve physical survival, not just political division. Nazism, Communism, Islamism, Socialism, and the Golden Dragon (an ism of mixed fuckwit parentage) is right around the corner. The old methods (due to the lethality of weaponry, for example) won't keep us safe. Bush is taking extraordinary steps, and risks - for us, for our future. Heady stuff.
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 12:19||   2005-10-13 12:19|| Front Page Top

#20  IWWIWWIWI = I Want What I Want When I Want It.

LOL. Should have been the Clinton administration motto.
Posted by Throgum Elmoluse7582 2005-10-13 12:23||   2005-10-13 12:23|| Front Page Top

#21 Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Washington must be remembered for starters. All had very serious trouble to deal with and acquitted themselves quite well. The jury is still out on Bush and he has some time to complete his work. I'll wait before I make my call.
Posted by DismemberedCricket 2005-10-13 12:31||   2005-10-13 12:31|| Front Page Top

#22 Woooo. Thank you!
Posted by .com 2005-10-13 12:35||   2005-10-13 12:35|| Front Page Top

#23 Uphhhhhhhh. I forgot to mention the main point that I wanted to mention. In general governments of the developing nations are not known for spending the aid that they receive from donor countries entirely on the welfare of their people. They normally make use of such resources for their clandestine business which could be either siphoning off the money to their Swiss Bank accounts or make use of it for carrying on terrorist operations or both. Aid which is now raining into Pakistan, I would not be surprised if their ISI deflects a substantial portion of the "Earthquake Aid" to fund terrorist operations in neighbouring India or even Europe. Gratitude is not a virtue which one can find in Moslem countries. (Indonesia may be an exception and one wonders for how long it would remain so); more so when their rulers are not going to spend such aid on the welfare/rehabilitation of the afflicted people. The "Earthquake Aid" may only contribute to strengthening/rebuilding Islamic terror network in Pakistan and elsewhere.
Posted by Prof. Alex Wordsmith">Prof. Alex Wordsmith  2005-10-13 13:02||   2005-10-13 13:02|| Front Page Top

#24 The Pakistani's will be as grateful as the Indonesians are...
Posted by CrazyFool 2005-10-13 13:02||   2005-10-13 13:02|| Front Page Top

#25 Thanks again Rantburg U, excluding myself lol, the regulars here are providing the rest of us with a graduate course of the Subcontinent. [not to mention the other departments]

John, have you ever met or communicated with B Raman? He's patiently answered a couple of my E-mails.

Rantburg Graphics Division, way kool.
Posted by Red Dog 2005-10-13 13:46||   2005-10-13 13:46|| Front Page Top

#26 Really?
I must send an email. One does not get the opportunity to communicate with former spymasters often.
:-)

Posted by john 2005-10-13 14:30||   2005-10-13 14:30|| Front Page Top

#27 Interesting that in 1947 according to the Jinnah interview, Pakistan was the 5th largest nation in the world and the largest Islamic nation. Now passed on both counts by Indonesia, a much more moderate Muslim nation compared to Pakland. Wonder what happened?
Posted by Jack is Back! 2005-10-13 15:24||   2005-10-13 15:24|| Front Page Top

#28 John, I read an article of his about 5 years ago..so I just contacted him cold.. with my questions before I new who he was, otherwise I never would have lol!

He promptly replied, wanting to know who I was before he would answer my questions..so I told him the basics. What I did for a living..bla bla and why i was interested etc.

I don't want to just put his E-mail address here in the comments section. But I'd be happy to send it to you ..Click Red Dog..I just set this account up.

I'm sure you'll ask better questions than I did several years ago. ;)
Posted by Red Dog">Red Dog  2005-10-13 16:15||   2005-10-13 16:15|| Front Page Top

#29 I don't want to just put his E-mail address here in the comments section. But I'd be happy to send it to you

Thanks.
I have some of his older articles archived (with email address). I never thought to write him.
Posted by john 2005-10-13 17:12||   2005-10-13 17:12|| Front Page Top

#30 Pakistan was the 5th largest nation in the world ... Wonder what happened?

The 1971 Indo-Pak war happened.
The dismemberment of Pakistan.

The Pakistan Army committed one of the worst genocides in the 20th century
see this short article: Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971

The driving of 10 million East Pakistanis (ethic cleaning on a massive scale) into India was too much for Indira Gandhi. She unleashed the Indian Army on Pakistan and its most populous part - the eastern wing became the country of Bangladesh.

Pakistan has never recovered from the loss of half of the country. The had to beg for the return of their POWs (90,000) without war crimes trials against them and the very act of surrender - to an army led by a Zoarastrian, with forces led by a Jew, spearheaded by Sikh regiments, oversaw by a dalit (untouchable) Hindu defence Minister and a woman brahmin Hindu Prime Minister was all too much for muslim honor and dignity.

Posted by john 2005-10-13 17:24||   2005-10-13 17:24|| Front Page Top

#31 Forces led by A Jew?
Who was that?
Posted by Shipman 2005-10-13 19:24||   2005-10-13 19:24|| Front Page Top

#32 General Jacob.

Jewish general led Indian army in 1971 war

"Looking back, he described his 37-year career in the army as “the happiest and most enjoyable period of my life.” Never once did he feel the sting of anti-Semitism in the Indian army. “But I had some problems with the British,” he said, declining to elaborate. “I don’t like to talk about it.”

Interestingly enough, Jacob – whose Hebrew name is Yaacov Rafael and who serves as president of New Delhi’s one and only synagogue – was not the only high-ranking Jewish officer in the armed forces. “There was another Jewish general, a chap named Samson, and he was in research and development and ordnance. And there was also a Jewish vice-admiral.”"

The Jewish general who beat Pakistan

"In 1941, at age 18, he enlisted in the Indian army, which was under British command. "My father was against my enlistment," he recalls, "but after I found out about the atrocities of the Nazis and their treatment of the Jews, I decided that I would be a military man." Upon his enlistment, Jacob joined an artillery brigade that was dispatched to North Africa to reinforce the British army against the German army under Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. The brigade arrived after the battles were over. From there, Jacob's unit was sent to Burma. "I wanted to fight Germans," says Jacob, "but in the end I fought for three years against the Japanese.""
Posted by john 2005-10-13 20:10||   2005-10-13 20:10|| Front Page Top

#33 And at age 90, the Indian Army's only living Field Marshal, Sam Manekshaw (who looks good for someone with Japanese shrapnel still in his body) - a Zoarastrian.



He was a real character

This is the guy who refused to call Indira Gandhi "Madam" as other officials did. He retorted that 'Madams ran brothels". He called her "Prime Minister"

One Indira Gandhi admonished him for drinking whiskey while debriefing her.
He retorted: "Prime minister, this is Black Dog, the same scotch that General Yahya Khan drinks. I shall outdrink him and I shall outfight him".

He played a part in the original Kashmir operation as well
Jawaharlal, do you want Kashmir,
or do you want to give it away?
Posted by john 2005-10-13 20:27||   2005-10-13 20:27|| Front Page Top

#34 John, Red Dog,

Thank you.
Posted by Throgum Elmoluse7582 2005-10-13 20:43||   2005-10-13 20:43|| Front Page Top

#35 heh heh I love this guy! Thanks for the info!
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-10-13 20:49||   2005-10-13 20:49|| Front Page Top

#36 Really Kool, dittos Frank. God I'd disobey my Drs. orders for the honor, to have a drink with this guy! »:)

thxs again John
Posted by Red Dog 2005-10-13 21:08||   2005-10-13 21:08|| Front Page Top

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