Article

2003-06-22 Europe

Tear gas fills Thessalonikiâs riot-torn streets as running battles mark end of EU summit

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Posted by Steve White 2003-06-22 1:28:58 AM|| || Front Page|| [8 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I recall reading a few years back that public opinion in Europe was largely pro-death penalty and strict enforcement of laws. The article also said that typically it was the "elites" in the parliments that refused to implement the death penalty or crack down on crime through tough sentencing laws. I remember quite clearly one MP stating that if he and his brother lawmakers didn't "vote their consciences" that then the rude masses would have pushed through all sorts of barbaric laws. As much as we whine about our own American lawmakers and their addiction to polls, at least they try to listen to their constituents (not masses) and implement their will for better or for worse.

Posted by 11A5S 6/22/03 12:57:22 PM|| 6/22/03 12:57:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 If the "elites" in the parliaments of Europe had listened to their constituents and implemented their will for better of for worse, then there's no single country in continental Europe that would have offered the slightest moral or physical support for America's war on Iraq... Not Poland, not Spain, not Denmark, not Italy, not any of the "new" *or* "old" Europe.

As for the death penalty... yes, sometimes polls seem that people want it, mainly as a punishment for drug dealers. But no party really seems to want it *enough*, or be undivided enough in its support of death penalty, so as to make it an election issue and change what many others consider a human rights achievement.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 1:38:05 PM|| 6/22/03 1:38:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Aris?

Posted by Brian 6/22/03 3:40:34 AM|| 6/22/03 3:40:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Greek police are under permanent orders "not to provoke." In Thessaloniki, they remained under the strictest instructions from above NOT to touch demonstrators unless attacked, repeat, attacked. Interpetation of such orders is yours... Do we stand by while the wingnuts burn and loot, or do we go in there and wipe the asphalt with their faces? If you were a Greek police commander, you'd probably decide to do the former lest you end up before a board of inquiry with the question of dismissal. Note that the plundering and pillaging is ALWAYS the handiwork of some 500 bloody goons at the most. Now try to figure out how 5,000 police, armed to the teeth, are unable to deal with such a group... Answer: leftwing government trying not to hurt the feelings of assorted barbarians, "militants," "ideological purists," "socialist fighters," you name it. In short, lack of resolve and an inherent (yet always vehemently denied) tolerance of domestic terrorism.

Posted by Nik Karanikos 6/22/03 5:58:08 AM|| [greek-sphaera.com] 6/22/03 5:58:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Lack of resolve, yes I think I'll pretty much agree with that.

I'd have really liked to see all these bastards rounded up and summarily tried and imprisoned for several years each, their families forced to pay for all the damage they caused.

But unlike Nik, I won't blame it on the ills of "left-wing governments". If anything I think a conservative government would act with even greater reserve fearing of antagonizing political forces even more than a socialist government would... Especially under the leadership of their current president Karamanlis, whom I've generally considered to be lacking any sort of moral backbone whatsoever...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 7:03:42 AM|| 6/22/03 7:03:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "...I think a conservative government would act with even greater reserve..."

I guess your Greek governments are of a different character to ours in the UK. Labour governments in the 20th C were habitually brought down by Union activity (this is one of the reasons why it wasn't until the late 90s that a Labour government enjoyed a second consecutive term in office) precisely because they were reluctant or unable to deal resolutely with left wing activists.

Posted by Bulldog 6/22/03 7:28:53 AM|| 6/22/03 7:28:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I'd have really liked to see all these bastards rounded up and summarily tried and imprisoned for several years each, their families forced to pay for all the damage they caused.
Right you are,Aris.
I'm all for Freedom of speech,Freedom to Demonstrat.But do not tolerate hurting people or destruction of property.

Posted by raptor 6/22/03 9:18:20 AM|| 6/22/03 9:18:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I don't understand why they can't sue the organizers of these events for the damage that they cause. Just like they did with the KKK or Aryan Nations. It would put them out of business real fast.

I guess it's tough to sue the Union's without getting the pleasure of trying on cement shoes in a deep pond.

Posted by Becky 6/22/03 10:21:22 AM|| 6/22/03 10:21:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Becky asks an obvious question, but who would do the prosecuting in Greece? The overall climate is not exactly conducive to going after the pillagers in any determined way whatsoever... To give you an example, just before the opening of the EU summit, leftist organizers announced they had prepared criminal complaints (!) that they would lodge with prosecutors against the police if tear gas was used against their demonstrators. Tear gas has been used, so I'm waiting to see what happens with the lawsuits. For as long as I can remember, I've been watching the courts turning loose swarms of bastards and rejecting punishing any of them for major destruction of property. In 1995, some 800 anarchists were arrested after exiting the Athens Polytechnic campus, where they had burned the administration building and the School of Fine Arts causing losses amounting to millions of dollars. Not even a SINGLE person among them was eventually prosecuted.

Posted by Nik Karanikos 6/22/03 11:18:10 AM|| [greek-sphaera.com] 6/22/03 11:18:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 no single country in continental Europe that would have offered the slightest moral or physical support for America's war on Iraq...

Why do you hate America so much Aris?

Posted by RW 6/22/03 1:49:17 PM|| 6/22/03 1:49:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 *snort* I like America more than I like my own country.

What you consider hatred of America, is only criticism of it. You've never seen gloat over the idea of USA's destruction the same way I've seen *many* people here gloat about EU's destruction, have you now?

Now, UK... *that's* the country I dislike more than my own. I could gloat over *that* one's destruction. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 1:56:46 PM|| 6/22/03 1:56:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "UK... *that's* the country I dislike more than my own. I could gloat over *that* one's destruction."

*blissful sigh* Thanks, Aris. You don't know how warm and tingly that makes me feel inside! :))))) Can I be so bold as to hazard a guess at which is your favourite country? Belgium, perhaps?

Posted by Bulldog 6/22/03 2:04:18 PM|| 6/22/03 2:04:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 ...willingness to do what's necessary to get ahead.

...and with nothing to stop you from trying, unlike in 95% of the rest of the world (inluding some parts of Europe).

Posted by RW 6/22/03 2:40:20 PM|| 6/22/03 2:40:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Bulldog> I guess about as warm and tingly as the dreams of EU's destruction make me, hmm? :-)

I don't have a favourite country. Switzerland might have been, if it did not always choose neutrality. The Scandinavian countries seem cool. [pun half-intended]. Or Netherlands. There are several European nations I could choose from.
Outside Europe, Canada sounds decent enough.

Were it not for United States' death penalty, it would have been a strong candidate for my "top favourite country" though, regardless of their foreign policy...

Of course for my *future* favourite country, and always it depending it'll turn out for the best, a federal European Union stands on the top... :-))) It'd have the one cool distinction that United States also has, as a country founded on principles, rather than on ethnic boundaries or happenstance -- except more so. :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 2:42:42 PM|| 6/22/03 2:42:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "...more than I like my own country."
Would that be US of E. or Greece?

Posted by RW 6/22/03 2:42:42 PM|| 6/22/03 2:42:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 RW> Was talking about Greece. European Union isn't a country yet, IMNSHO. And btw "US of E" is a rather awful name... It sounds more like a parody than a real possible name. In the end I hope that European Union shall remain named such. Though "European Federation" might be also good enough... :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 2:47:36 PM|| 6/22/03 2:47:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 It's not conducive to going after the pillagers, it's not conducive to going after the November terror group...I fear for the state of the body politic.

Also, a standing question to Aris: how can you be willing to see everything that Greece accomplished on their own be submerged to Belgium? It's incomprehensible to me to place so much blind trust in Brussels and to foresake national pride on the alter of unaccountable Eurocrats...

Posted by Brian 6/22/03 3:30:35 PM|| 6/22/03 3:30:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 It's simplisme, isn't it? Aris doesn't like Greece. Why should he care?

Funny that you express you admiration for Switzerland, Aris. The country immediately recognisable for so long as the 'hole' in the map of the European Community. So what is it that the Swiss do that you find so admirable? Are you hooked on chocolate? Besides that, I don't see much to rave about. Unless you're just clutching at a multilingual state to hold up as your beacon. Perhaps you admire Swiss banking ethics? A history of admirable foreign policy? Or perhaps it's the crayzeee popular culture they export? The delights of Geneva? The gun in every household? From my own experience, chocolate and mountains are about the only things I'd be keen to return for. I even regretted spending a day there whilst holidaying in France once - each visiting vehicle was required to pay a full year's road tax upon entry!

And why are you so anti-UK? Is it just because you want your marbles back? Or something else...?

Posted by Bulldog 6/22/03 3:49:35 PM|| 6/22/03 3:49:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Brian> Be submerged to "Belgium"... Pfft. This doesn't even deign a response. That's like saying that Macedonia or Epirus or Crete was submerged to Attica...

"National pride"? It wasn't my choice to be born here, it was just chance, so why should I be proud for something that isn't my choice? Is "national pride" something like "racial pride", and should I be against interracial relationships for the same reasons you seem to indicate I should be against EU?

"Everything that Greece accomplished on their own"? Actually I look at what Greece has accomplished on their own and it can't even compare to what it has accomplished in unity with other nations. Or do you think that the defeat of the 3rd Reich is just a triviality? We fought with the allies. National independence? A united European fleet helped us do that at the bay of Navarino. Balkan wars? We were never alone in those either.

So what exactly is it that "we accomplished on our own" that outweighs the stuff above? Unless you mean something like "invent democracy", in which case it'd be kinda silly to isolate ourselves from the countries that adopted the same idea.

The draft preamble in the European Constitution begins with a Greek phrase by Thucydides. If there's national pride to be found here, is that alongside Rome we gave birth to European civilisation. And that pride can be found *inside* the EU, far more than it can be found outside it.

And stop the cliched propagandist ploy about the "unaccountable Eurocrats", speaking about them as if it's an integral characteristic of the Union. People who babble about this, tend to be the ones who *don't* want to see more democracy and accountability in the Union. By speaking as if it's a *given* in the Union, they remove from themselves the responsibility to try and improve the situation.

Bulldog> "So what is it that the Swiss do that you find so admirable?"

Direct democracy, you idiot.

The "gun in every household" isn't a problem when it's not accompanied by the belief many Americans have that said gun is the solution to every single problem in the world.

"And why are you so anti-UK?"

I think I've already explained this in past discussion. In a great deal of length. UK's role in Europe has been that of the hypocritical saboteur, who not only doesn't want to move forward itself, but actively tries to stop everyone else from going forward on their own either. Oh, no, we don't want to join the euro, but at the same time we'll stop the euroland countries from having a financial council of their own. Oh, no, we don't want federal taxation, but instead of just *opting out* ourselves of such federal taxation, we'll prevent everyone else from doing it. Oh, no, we don't want common defense but where countries such as Denmark just choose to *opt out* of such common defense, we'll actively move to prevent the rest of you countries forming a common defense either.

Why should I not despise the country that's warring on the greatest project currently taking place on the face of the earth?

*Besides* that we have their ridiculous monarchy and House of Lords and stuff, at the same time accompanied with the iron belief that they are more democratic than the rest of the continent. They are themselves a federation of nationalities, but *gasp* say the word "federation" where pertains to Europe and they'll faint. Federations evil. Scottish and Irish nationalism *bad*, British nationalism *good*. Pfft. They speak of French domination in the Union, and they don't seem to see the much stronger English domination in their own "United Kingdom".

Cool authors though. Tolkien. Rowling. Pratchett. That's one good thing, definitely.

So, yeah. I dislike UK the most of all the countries in the EU. Greece comes second worst, because of such things as the power of Church in politics, the nationalistic hysterias, stuff like that. We're still far better than the rest of the Balkans, but that's not much comfort, is it now?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 6/22/03 4:23:49 PM|| 6/22/03 4:23:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Aris, you charmer.

English domination of the UK? You don't pay much attention to your nemesis, do you? Of course the English, representing approximmately 2/3rds of the population of the UK, will appear to 'dominate' because of their strength of numbers, but as usual, you let your assuptions guide your opinion. The smaller nations benefit disproportionately highly, per capita, from government expenditure. The smaller nations are disproportionately highly represented by MPs, per capita, in parliament in Westminster. In addition, they have their own parliaments, whereas decisions made regarding exclusively English issues are decided and voted on by English, Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish MPs. There is no equivalent English parliament. You're also ignoring, or are ignorant of, the fact that individuals from the smaller nations are currently, and have been historically, disproportionately highly represented in parliament in the mainstream political parties. All the leaders of the big three parties right now are from Scotland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is Scottish. This is your idea of "English domination"?!

The British sabotaged European defence? When the weasels anounced their intention to create own tri-nation army just a couple of months ago, without bothering to mention it to, or invite, most of the other EU member states?

Switzerland is so great because of its passion for referenda? I guess that explains why they colluded with the Nazis and shunned EU membership. Fantastic country, shame about the voters, huh?

So I have an "iron belief" that my country's more democratic than the rest of the continent? Well, you learn something new every day, I suppose. You don't like the monarchy. Well, bully for you. So hate me. The House of Lords incurs your wrath? Well, all I can say is, try to live with it. You ain't going to see Westminster burning in eternal hell in your lifetime, so put your emotions to more productive use somewhere else, please.

Posted by Bulldog 6/22/03 5:25:31 PM|| 6/22/03 5:25:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 This kind of behavior will ONLY stop when someone makes it so painful the perpetrators will not wish to continue it. We had a small group of demonstrators here in Colorado Springs that tried to incite a riot among a larger crowd. The peaceful demonstrators tackled them, held them down, and turned them over to police. They knew that, if they didn't supervise the activity of ALL the demonstrators, the police would treat them all equally, regardless of who was actually at fault. The problems lasted less than three minutes, and 27 demonstrators were arrested. None of them had a local address - they had all driven down from Boulder, 85 miles to the north of here.

The only thing that ends this nonsense is rapid force, applied where necessary, with just enough restraint that the wackos live long enough to serve their jail terms.

Posted by Old Patriot 6/22/03 7:37:34 PM|| [users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 6/22/03 7:37:34 PM|| Front Page Top

02:09 PD
01:11 loud mouths
00:00 Fred
23:57 Fred
19:37 Old Patriot
19:18 Old Patriot
18:05 mojo
17:25 Bulldog
17:00 marek
16:23 Aris Katsaris
15:49 Bulldog
15:44 Alaska Paul
15:30 Brian
15:08 Lucky
14:59 Barbara Skolaut
14:56 Lucky
14:50 Lucky
14:47 Aris Katsaris
14:44 Lucky
14:42 RW
14:42 Aris Katsaris
14:42 Brian
14:40 RW
14:04 Bulldog