Article

2003-07-21 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by 11A5S 2003-07-21 12:18:58 AM|| || Front Page|| [5 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 He's inviting arrest; we ought to give him what he wants. He'd look good in orange.

Posted by Steve White 2003-7-21 12:50:01 AM|| 2003-7-21 12:50:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Interesting take on this over at Tacitus.

"LTC Christopher C. Conlin, refused to back down before Sadr's demonstration, eventually compelling an angry crowd of thousands to disperse with only two dozen Marines and a show of resolution. Did I say this was bad news? As I write, it seems more like good news. A major Shi'a leader has declared himself in opposition, made his move, failed to catch fire beyond his narrow base, and had his demonstration thwarted by a handful of Americans. One can't draw too many lessons from the events of a single day, but we can say that the day ended well."

Posted by Dave 2003-7-21 12:56:51 AM|| 2003-7-21 12:56:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "called for the formation of an Islamic army"
That should be enough to arrest his ass.

Way-to-go,Colonel.You da man!

Posted by raptor 2003-7-21 7:36:39 AM|| 2003-7-21 7:36:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 This mook's lookin' like a black bag special more and more every day...

Posted by mojo 2003-7-21 10:37:28 AM|| 2003-7-21 10:37:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I disagree with giving this guy the attention he craves. He's claiming he's dangerous and the Americans want to stifle him, and there's no sense in giving him undeserved credibility.

Two dozen Marines and a colonel with a loud speaker were enough for the demonstrators to back down. They could have called in reinforcements, surrounded Al Sadr and took him into custody, and that would have only shown his supporters his claims were true.

Let him keep crying wolf--the crowd will figure it out. Judging from the comments in the story, most of them already have.

Posted by Dar 2003-7-21 2:07:29 PM|| 2003-7-21 2:07:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Dave,

Read that post at Tacitus, as well. I feel it wasn't just the Marines, it was the command their officer issued..."Fix Bayonets!" seems to work real well with the sand fleas.

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-7-21 2:12:53 PM|| 2003-7-21 2:12:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 That's the wonderful thing about the Marines...when they say MOVE, you jump, crawl move,scoot,skip, etc. just to make sure you cover all of the bases.

In Cuba (1994) the riot rundown went like this. If the riot got out of control or the resistance to the Marine frontline riot line became stiif they simply called out a word "Lightning" (for example). The riot line would immediately break back a few steps break right and left and then back behind the RIFLEMEN (Smile). The riflemen were already on a knee locked and loaded. On the command to fire end game for the bad guys. Us Army guys would then fill the body bags.

Fortunately for the Cubans, they had learned early on that the Marines don't bluff.

Much to my dissapointment, the Army ~~politicians~~ officers didn't have the ~~nuts~~ guts to make that type of decision even at the 0-4 grade and higher (Major and above) It hurts to say it, but God I love those Jarheads!!!

Posted by Paul 2003-7-21 3:42:49 PM|| 2003-7-21 3:42:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 "Much to my dissapointment, the Army politicians officers didn't have the nuts guts to make that type of decision even at the 0-4 grade and higher (Major and above) It hurts to say it, but God I love those Jarheads!!!"

Gotta love Marines, sure, but I'd say 3rd ID's 3-7 CAV could give lessons in cojones. Suppressing the Saddam thugs takes brains too. Opening fire on a crowd formed to absorb a few score 5.56 is a recipe for getting a lot of people mad who were previously accepting of our presence. As strategypage notes, our special ops guys are quietly fighting this war at night away from the TV weenies. We will win this. Just don't screw it up by going postal on the locals.

Check out this for some discussion of provoking a massacre. Shoot, we still bitch about the Boston Massacre, don't we?

Posted by BJD (The Dignified Rant) 2003-7-21 4:13:55 PM|| [www.geocities.com/brianjamesdunn/TDRhome.html] 2003-7-21 4:13:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 BJD >>> I wasn't advocating a massacre. The point was that the Marines don't play politics. When they're on the scene THEY'RE in charge. I don't doubt for a second that the order for fix bayonets was given. They wouldn't back down, period.

I also agree that Army units have cojones as well. Believe me they do. Unfortunately, in the last war I only saw them on the enlisted side.

To compare the Marine and Army officer is like comparing apples to coconuts. I've worked with both in real world situations. There IS a difference. It's sad to say that and only more frustrating because it doesn't have to be that way.

Just look at the difference in the ROE for the soldiers and Marines. Typical of the Army treating the soldiers like irresponsible kids. We had the same dumb A** ROE the first time. It was ridiculous.

That's why you don't hear about Marine causalties on a daily basis. There's a common phrase in the Army. "The way you train is the way you fight." Never have words more true ever been spoken. Sometimes with tragic results.

It too doesn't have to be that way either.

Posted by Paul 2003-7-21 6:27:57 PM|| 2003-7-21 6:27:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 It's all about leadership - real leadership, not the tripe they "teach" in corporate team-building workshops.

Raptor's got it right - LtCol Conlin is the real deal. And real soldiers will follow the right guy through anything you can throw at them. Some command and some demand. Conlin commands. His guys know they'll be proud to have been there. And seeing it done right when the heat's on will create a couple of new leaders from his outfit, too. Nothing teaches as well as experience and positive real-world examples.

Posted by PD 2003-7-21 6:54:13 PM|| 2003-7-21 6:54:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Shit - not getting refreshed. I missed your comments, Paul, when writing mine.

You called it - very accurate. Regards leadership, I was RA and we had good ones - and really really bad ones.

A comment on this from SOG475 (I think that's right) indicated he wishes he'd had such professional soldiers to lead - and I certainly understand him and sympathize. When I was in, 90% were just passing time and ducking everything they could - and that includes officers. Not a Pro in sight, most of the time. Butter Bar guys were dangerous if they had ambition - not taught to listen to the NCO's back then.

Now it's obviously much much better, but the Army probably does lag behind. Totaly asinine interservice rivalry is one of the remaining problems.

Posted by PD 2003-7-21 10:01:47 PM|| 2003-7-21 10:01:47 PM|| Front Page Top

10:30 Annoyed
08:03 raptor
07:48 raptor
03:22 R. McLeod
03:06 parallaxview
02:57 Mike Kozlowski
00:53 PD
00:52 PD
00:50 PD
23:43 John Moore (Useful Fools)
23:43 Steve White
23:42 John Moore (Useful Fools)
23:38 Steve White
23:36 Frank G
23:26 Frank G
23:16 Old Tom
23:10 flash91
23:09 Frank G
23:08 Anonymous
22:57 Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)
22:50 tu3031
22:50 Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)
22:41 tu3031
22:41 flash91