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2003-08-14 International

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Posted by Steve 2003-08-14 10:58:15 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm curious if we have any AD types here that could comment on this. I'm curious about how long shoulder-launched SAMs might last on the shelf.

Is the fuel solid?

Is the fuel corrosive?

Are they stored with batteries in place or separately (assuming if stored in place, the batteries could corrode like the terminals in car batteries do, or flashlight batteries left in the flashlight for several years)?

Are they well protected from exposure to light, moisture, dirt, et al?

Are the launchers reusable (aren't the missiles stored in tubes--toss the tube, load a new round, fire, toss the tube, etc.)?

What's the estimated shelf life?

Posted by Dar 2003-8-14 11:25:17 AM|| [http://users.stargate.net/~dsteckel/] 2003-8-14 11:25:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Hi Dar: One of the main issues is calibration. It has to be done every so often. If you don't have a lab to do it, the missile becomes useless after a few years. Witness all the recent attacks in Iraq, Afganistan, Kenya in which the missile didn't go anywhere near the target. Some of the missiles require a coolant bottle for the IR seeker, too. Shelf life varies widely based on storage conditions. There are tables to de-rate the shelf life based on temp, dust exposure, exposure to humidity, etc. I wouldn't want to see those on the web. If the missile is in the packing case (like a giant aluminum briefcase) they'll last a long time. If not, again, derate it. So between batteries, calibration, storage issues, and sometimes coolant bottles, it's a bitch for the terrorists to keep them flying. My experience come from other kinds of missiles, but the general principles are all the same.

Posted by 11A5S 2003-8-14 1:05:18 PM|| 2003-8-14 1:05:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Dar-
I was trained (unofficially) on Stinger in the 80s and was responsible for maintaining them in storage. I can give you a bit of info:

*AFAIK, all MANPADS are solid fueled with noncorrosive fuel. However, storage conditions need to be fairly stable, otherwise you're risking temperature-induced problems with the motors. In addition, transporting them is something to be careful with because they are heavy, and dropping them or throwing them around - even in their cases - could crack or shatter the motor, which will lead to a very spectacular visual display when you pull the trigger.
*On Stinger, batteries were stored separately by the USAF - dont know if that was the same for the other services. The batteries do have a fairly long shelf life, but once the're opened up, it's not long. As Mr Dunnigan points out, the original Stinger batteries in Afghanistan went bad long ago.
*My experience has been that the launchers and missiles come in separate cases. The launchers are reusuable, but each one has different standards as to how many times. The cases are fiberglass, but they have been known to crack.
*Stinger at least is a sealed round - in THEORY, it's got an infinte shelf life if maintained properly. I don't remember what Stinger's is, but 3-4 years seems to stick in my mind. Then they're sent back to depot, opened up, checked out, and resealed.
The point to keep in mind here is that any MANPAD is a fairly delicate piece of equipment, and if its not stored or maintained by the book, you are risking serious problems when it comes time to use them.
One other thing - to knock down a modern airliner would require a tail shot - popping up and launching as the plane passes over you. Your problems here are that the missile's warhead may not arm in the fairly short distance between the launch point and the plane. You will have to be in the wide open spaces around the airport - if you're in a built up area with anything except Stinger or the UK's MANPADS, there's too much chance you'll end up engaging another heat source. Airliner engines burn comparitively cool compared to military engines, so that's another problem.
The warheads are fairly small frag units - a core of HE wrapped with notched wire that creates an expanding cloud of fragments. On a small military aircraft, where every inch is packed with systems of some sort, you stand an excellent chance of doing serious if not fatal damage. However on a civilian airliner, most of the airplane is - compared to a military aircraft - empty space. That's not to say no damage would be done, but it would take a salvo of 3-4 missiles, all of which would have to hit, to guarantee bringing it down. That complicates the actual attack to the point where getting 4 guys to pop up simultaneously, hit the plane, then get away, could be very problematical.

HTH,
Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2003-8-14 1:25:52 PM|| 2003-8-14 1:25:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 11A5S and Mike:

Thank you, gentlemen! That's what I love about Rantburg--the diverse backgrounds and expertise! :-)

Posted by Dar 2003-8-14 1:37:55 PM|| [http://users.stargate.net/~dsteckel/] 2003-8-14 1:37:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#5
I say we let loose a bunch of "Stingers" onto the black market with a couple product enhancements...
(1) Propellant ignites if any attempt is made to inspect the motor
(2) Warhead detonates when trigger is pulled and the guidance system engages - vaporizing the operator.
(3) Entire weapon explodes if any attempt made to diasassemble or otherwise inspect.

Paul

Posted by Paul Perkins 2003-8-14 3:06:57 PM|| 2003-8-14 3:06:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 That's very evil of you, Paul. But you forgot the GPS locator beacon, track them from place to place before they have a "work acident".

Posted by Steve 2003-8-14 3:20:55 PM|| 2003-8-14 3:20:55 PM|| Front Page Top

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