Article

2004-05-21 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 12:23:08 PM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Aris, this stuff is terrible. I agree, we must take steps to stop it. The difference between them and us, I've always maintained, is that we care, we have higher moral principles - and, ultimately, they do not. HOWEVER, that does not excuse this kind of behavior, nor is it a reason to keep the gloves on in a situation where we need to kick some jihadi ass. But please remember that not all Americans are like these, and keep in mind that this kind of thing has been going on in the Middle East for a long time. This does not excuse us in any way, but it is telling that these kinds of stories are only emphasized when America is involved, no?

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-21 12:38:48 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:38:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 And, as was pointed out elsewhere, we are taking steps to prosecute those responsible. The Arab regimes obviously do not.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-21 12:40:17 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:40:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Aris-
First, let me say that without question, any charge this serious should be taken seriously and investigated seriously.
Secondly - this does not sound like an American. I am not saying that Americans are not capable of this, but I am saying that the words and phrasing used here do not sound American.
Third, and I mean no disrespect to you - the fluorescent (or phosphoric) light story is almost certainly untrue. There are 'urban legends' here in the States about homosexuals coming to hospital emergency rooms with lights in the same places. I have spoken to doctors and nurses alike and they have said the same thing: the muscles involved would crush the light, especially if the person was trying to fight it. And if the person was fighting it, the light would almost certainly be broken long before penetration.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-05-21 12:42:06 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:42:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Allah likes torture and rape Aris.
At least that's what Muhammed thought, as he and his followers did alot of raping and torturing in their day, Allah sanctioned of course.
So I'm not sure why you think "Allah" will "comfort" anybody.
And of course, soldiers who did what you posted will be tried like the criminals they are!

Posted by TS(vice girl) 2004-05-21 12:47:35 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:47:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Lol!

Idiot: One who reads WaPo (NYT, BBC, CNN, et al) articles and swallows them whole. Yumm!

Posted by .com 2004-05-21 12:50:47 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:50:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 "Allah likes torture and rape Aris."

So did Yahweh under the rule of Moses.

And what Mohammed thought about God is irrelevant, since if God exists then he probably exists regardless of our belief in him or not. So, if God/Allah/Theos exists, may he comfort the tortured and raped there.

The Doctor> "The difference between them and us, I've always maintained, is that we care, we have higher moral principle"

Actually the "them" in this case is not Saddam or Al Qaeda, but the people detained in this prison, in which case I've no reason to believe they don't have much higher moral principles than that small part of "us" that was torturing them.

Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this. I obviously know that most Americans are decent folk -- the same way that most people are decent folk everywhere.

Unfortunately, I wish that I also knew that none of the Rantburgers were like this -- more than one Rantburgers have excused the tortures of Abu Ghraib after all.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 12:56:32 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:56:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 These scum should be made to run in full gear with a nightstick shoved up their ass until they drop dead.

They shame every soldier who has ever worn the uniform.

Posted by Chris W. 2004-05-21 12:57:01 PM|| 2004-05-21 12:57:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this.

Could've fooled me. What about your blanket condemnation of the entire American army in another thread below?

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 1:01:42 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:01:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "What about your blanket condemnation of the entire American army in another thread below?"

I never made such a blanket condemnation of the entire American army. I simply said that I couldn't trust such torturers to not exist in other prisons as well.

You have a nasty habit of utterly failing to understand my words.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 1:04:32 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:04:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Crimes against humanity? Better lay off the janjaweed Aris. Crimes were committed, but if you're looking for crimes against humanity there are plenty of mass graves still being excavated - or does that not fit in with your world view?

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-21 1:05:54 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:05:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "Yeah, I *obviously* know not all Americans are like this. I obviously know that most Americans are decent folk -- the same way that most people are decent folk everywhere."

Absolutely agreed. And we will continue to do our laundry in public as we have been doing since our inception. Weeding out the bad apples is a never-ending process, but we do it - openly. WaPo is an exceptionally poor source for factual data on that process, however. You'll need a shovel and a series of filters (not to mention nose plugs, IMO) to get the best results.

Posted by .com 2004-05-21 1:06:28 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:06:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I simply said that I couldn't trust such torturers to not exist in other prisons as well.

Can you trust that you won't get hit by a meteor when you step outside today? Better stay home, but even that won't protect you.

I'll entertain your logic for a second: Rest assured, with all the shit coming out recently about abuses in Abu G., there ain't no abuse going on right now, anywhere.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 1:20:38 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:20:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 ...these crimes against humanity...

By the way, Aris, this is where my outrage at the abuse begins to dim before my outrage at the outrage. These were crimes against humans, not crimes against humanity.

I have said in other places that what happened at Abu Ghraib may have been WRONG, illegal, and stupid, but it was not torture. Rape, on the other hand, is definitely torture.

But I'm not going to let my disgust at it lead me down the moral equivalence road to hell. These were not "crimes against humanity", and these actions do not make us as bad as Saddam. I know you have not come right out and said that, Aris, but plenty of people have.

For further information on this topic, consult the boy who cried wolf, if you can find him.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-05-21 1:21:02 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-05-21 1:21:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Do any idiots still think that nothing more than mere "hazing" happened in Abu Ghraib?

I guess I must be an idiot, Aris, especially when the story was written and published in the Washington Post.

Hilas, like other detainees interviewed by the military, said he could not identify some of the soldiers because they either covered their name patches or did not wear uniforms.

You failed to include this, Aris. People in a military prison without uniforms, or with covered name patches.

Even though the story says 'Hilas' witnessed the rape, the story also said Hilas did not see the rape. What kind of 'investigative writing' is this in which a prisoner is called a witness to a crime with one small detail: he did not actually see the crime take place.

Another detainee told military investigators that American soldiers sodomized and beat him. The detainee, whose name is being withheld by The Post because he is an alleged victim of a sexual assault,

WP thinks its necessary to protect a victim of one assault but not another, yet thinks nothing of naming American names.

Why is this material being released? Why did the WP find it necessary to protect Iraqi crime victim but doesn''t see its way to protecting an investigation?

There is no national shield law concerning journalists, and investigative documents have fallen into the hands of of people who care nothing for all the soldiers who did not commit crimes.

They shame every soldier who has ever worn the uniform.

Will you stop it? I wore the uniform and I can promise 99.999 percent of people who wore the uniform never committed crimes. If these allegations are true, and I don't know that they are, they don't shame anyone in the military for me.

a) Troops got out of control.
b) Commander was removed
c) crime investigated

Game over.

We go on to win the war in Iraq.

Bonus points: The DoD person who released these documents gets cashiered and charged with crimes him/herself.

Is this not enough?

Posted by badanov 2004-05-21 1:27:59 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-05-21 1:27:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Rafael> "Can you trust that you won't get hit by a meteor when you step outside today?"

Quite a bit better than I can trust that such torture didn't occur in other prisons as well, actually.

Angie Schultz> "Crimes against humanity" is an exaggeration but only because of the *scale* involved, not because of the kind of actions -- namely that it wasn't against the entirety of a civilian population but only against the inmates of a prison. But rape and torture are include in the way that one can commit crimes against humanity. Once again -- yeah, that was an exaggeration, but because of the scale, not the actions.

And it *was* torture. "Torture means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions; "

And those actions obviously don't make you as bad as Saddam, because you hadn't authorized them. But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 1:30:46 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:30:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Scale? What scale? Are you citing one dubious report or the actions of a handful of soldier as scale? Compared to what? There is no comparison...period.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-21 1:34:45 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:34:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Learn the definition of scale. And oh, for god's sake, shut up about "dubious report", the images of torture come one after the other.

"There is no comparison...period."

I didn't know you were an Egyptian.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 1:43:10 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:43:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO.

Which is why they're being court-martialed and will likely serve long prison sentences. Gosh, odd how that works.

Now, how about the sex-slave rings operated by UN "peace" keeping forces? You gonna get as worked up about that as you do about this?

Get a fucking grip, Aris.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-21 1:44:30 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-21 1:44:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#19
There is no national shield law concerning journalists, and investigative documents have fallen into the hands of of people who care nothing for all the soldiers who did not commit crimes.

Those would be the defense lawyers. Given the strength of the evidence, they're angling for Kerry's election and a political pardon.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-21 1:47:03 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-21 1:47:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Quite a bit better than I can trust that such torture didn't occur in other prisons as well, actually.

Well, you're gonna have a fit when you find out about the Holocaust during Hitler's reign. Now that was torture.
You're raising a stink over nothing. There's probably people in the US army that would *like* to torture prisoners. Does that shake your confidence in the entire army? There's probably people having evil thoughts as we speak. Should we abandon the planet because of it?

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 1:49:08 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 The assholes at prison are just that assholes! crimes against humanity? from what we know no one was KILLED there.
I dont see much diferent from some universities and police/military corps entrance "parties". What is a shock because in war violent acts usually are revenge and have a propose , not the gratuitity exposed in this psycho behaviour.

Posted by Anonymous4963 2004-05-21 1:55:12 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:55:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Rafael> "Which is why they're being court-martialed and will likely serve long prison sentences."

Did I ever deny that? You know we'd save quite a bit of time, if you people read what I actually wrote rather than imagine me of writing what I didn't write.

"Now, how about the sex-slave rings operated by UN "peace" keeping forces? You gonna get as worked up about that as you do about this? "

If I see people here excuse slavery the same way they've excused torture, yeah I'll get as worked up about that as I did about this.

In fact I actually *do* remember getting worked up about slavery in some thread several weeks ago.

Rafael> You keep on babbling about some supposedly collective condemnation I supposedly made. Why should I care to defend statements I never actually made?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 1:55:26 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:55:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 And oh, for god's sake, shut up about "dubious report", the images of torture come one after the other. ...yeah like the faked ones?

Learn the definition of scale ha!...funny coming from you.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-21 1:58:42 PM|| 2004-05-21 1:58:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 "Actually the "them" in this case is not Saddam or Al Qaeda, but the people detained in this prison".

Lets be specific here, in the section of the prison where this happened the prisoners were oriegn fighters captured in Iraq and ex-Bathists. These were not Saddaam but they were his thugs and many of them may have been Al Queda.

The doesn't excuse the harrassment stories that certainly happened or the torture stories (if these latest ones are true), but don't paint these thugs as jaywalkers that were rounded up and abused.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-05-21 2:00:55 PM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-05-21 2:00:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Aris,
Listen Greek boy! I love the fact that valuable information came from the abuse. If it saved one Americans life I am all for the abuse. Abuse the hell out of them. Anyway, sodomy is something I would figure you would like to hear about Greek boy, considering it is your nations favorite pastime! What, your bummed cause you were not part of the receiving end of the information gathering techniques?

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-05-21 2:01:22 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:01:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Crimes against humanity" is an exaggeration but only because of the *scale* involved...

But when speaking of "crimes against humanity", scale is everything. Systematic rape of women by invading armies is a crime against humanity; isolated rapes (of anyone) -- however horrible -- are not.

"Torture means... Let's get real. Your definition is so vague as to be meaningless, and essentially boils down to "the intentional infliction of pain is torture, except when it's not". No doubt that definition comes from some reputable source, but there is plenty of room for disagreement on how "severe" physical or mental suffering must be to count as torture.

But they do make the specific individuals of Graner & co. as bad as Saddam IMO. Bull. Saddam would've had the prisoners tortured slowly and professionally until they died, in wholesale lots. Graner does sound like a nasty piece of work, and the others not much better, but they're not Saddam.

I'll also point out, as others have, that this story is very suspicious. My BS meter lit up at the "sodomizing a boy" part. In addition to the fishiness of where the witnesses were, and how they were able to see things -- and leaving aside the important issue of what this guy has to gain by lying, which is a great deal -- there's also the matter of simple misinterpretation. Could the "light stick sodomy" actually be a body cavity search? I'm not going to dismiss the story as a complete fabrication, but I think a certain amount of skepticism is in order.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-05-21 2:02:47 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-05-21 2:02:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Funny how that works. We KNOW there are photos and even more likely, statements which have been planted/doctored. Yet, none of this has been 'investigated' by any news outlet, except NewMax.

Don't you think we oughta get to the heart of this matter first, as it is far more likely to affect troops in the field Ignoring it means we basically still have a rat in the house.

Posted by badanov 2004-05-21 2:04:01 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-05-21 2:04:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Why should I care to defend statements I never actually made?

"It does seem a problem when one power can't trust its allies to treat prisoners humanely. One solution is to hand over jurisdiction over what prisons exist in Afghanistan to Germany. And have no prisoner transferred to Gitmo instead ofcourse."

Your own words from a different thread. Paraphrase: "No one can trust those nasty Americans".

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 2:07:01 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:07:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 "I love the fact that valuable information came from the abuse."

That's not what I heard. I heard that not one bit of valuable information came from the abuse, that all of the info was called "trivial". Where's your sources that valuable info came from it?

"If it saved one Americans life I am all for the abuse. Abuse the hell out of them."

That's why you (and by "you", I mean you *personally*, lest Rafael once again tries to present me as an anti-American bigot) are as evil as Saddam.

And call it "torture", as it is, you coward with words.

Rex Mundi> "yeah like the faked ones?" Once again there's no need for you to display your Egyptian descent so clearly. I know already that you come from the land of de Nile.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 2:08:25 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:08:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 if you people read what I actually wrote rather than imagine me of writing what I didn't write.

I gotta hand it to you though...your insults and condescension are not thinly veiled. Why, you could almost skip over them if not paying attention. (That's complimenting your writing ability, btw)

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 2:14:32 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:14:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Rafael> Which was in response to the problem of Germans not trusting American treatment of prisoners. And my immediately next post, ofcourse explain that I have no way of actually *knowing* that the German system is any better than the American one ofcourse. Which is why I also suggested Red Cross to be able to visit everywhere at surprise inspections, regardless of nationality.

So, cut and choose, and quote out of context if you will. But I did give a solution to the problem of Germany not trusting how you deal with the prisoners captured in Afghanistan. I didn't see *you* having any better ideas, other than "Just trust us".

International control of these prisons was an idea that had occured to me before this.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 2:15:16 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:15:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Aris, choosing not to swallow your screech about crimes against humanity isn't denial...it's perspective. And when you feel the need to explain your punchlines it's time to look for new material.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-21 2:20:10 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:20:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Aris, choosing not to swallow your screech about crimes against humanity isn't denial...it's perspective.

I've already admitted that "crimes against humanity" was an exaggeration, so it's not perspective either. It's trying to hang onto a strawman.

But choosing not to accept that most of the photos are real *is* denial.

And when you feel the need to explain your punchlines it's time to look for new material.

Yeah well, I felt I had to make allowances for the intelligence, and lack thereof, of my intended audience.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 2:25:04 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:25:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Aris: It's another data point. We've already established that abuse occurred, officers and NCOs were negligent in their duties, and that the system for dealing with prisoner complaints was inadequate. As we continue our "investigation" hear at RB, what kinds of questions should we be asking? Does this testimony correlate with other known data (lightsticks, yes; male rape, no). Is the witness credible (jihadis have been known to stretch the truth a little, like this doctor who knew all about the marriage party "massacre," even though he was 250 km away)?

BTW, the US military does consider hazing to be abuse. Why? Precisely because what starts as hazing so often ends in this sort of travesty. I knew NCOs who lost stripes for relatively mild hazing incidents.

Prisons are bad places where bad thing happen. I read prison abuse stories from all of the westernized countries, including the EU(third story down). These sorts of problems won't end until there are no more prisons.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-21 2:25:49 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:25:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 *snicker* Once again, a mega-thread from Hell.

The Internation Red ~~Cross~~ Thingy?

Lol! Oh yeah, that'd be in the same vein as believing everything WaPo & Co publish. What is it about "international" that makes an opinion so much more worthy? Nothing. Not. A. Fucking. Thing(y). Almost makes me want to use the "I' word you love so much. Lol!

C'mon, Aris - get a credit card or send a Western Union payment or whatever to Fred. Make it HUGE. You eat more bandwidth through your posts than any other individual. If you haven't the personal integrity to support your habits you should cease and desist out of sheer embarassment.

You've posted your position(s) enough times to engage 10 or 20 people - why don't you write a book instructing the entire world on morality?

This isn't a question of Fred telling you to leave - he's far too generous a host to do so - it's about the guest having the good grace to know when to leave, or pony up some serious rent money.

Posted by .com 2004-05-21 2:30:40 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:30:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 May God comfort the pain of the tortured and raped by Saddam, and may vengeance be taken upon all the demonspawn that tried to prevent us taking down Saddam.

Posted by virginian 2004-05-21 2:32:51 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:32:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I didn't see *you* having any better ideas

How about...prosecuting the offenders. Shit, now there's a concept.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 2:35:21 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:35:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 .com, in all fairness to Aris (this is my impartial persona speaking), he did say that he was a grad student. In other words, he doesn't have much money.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 2:38:47 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:38:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 But choosing not to accept that most of the photos are real *is* denial.

Wrong.

The existance of fake photos taint the whole pool. I dont know how things work in Eurostan, but in the USA, if photos of a crime were released along with doctored photos, the whole element is tainted. A judge can be easily persuaded to throw out all the photos since some of them cannot be verified in their authenticity... unless you can establish the photos, one by one, as definitive evidence of a crime taking place.

Right now, we are being flooded with photos; yet we are not told if these material are being used as evidence, or if they cannot be used as evidence because of authenticity problems.

If you cannot establish who shot what photos, when, etc, then none of the photos should be used, either as leaked materials to the press or as 'evidence' of a crime taking place., and their presence can easily be presumed doctored/planted and therefore not legitimate as news or evidence.

And you cannot do any of the above. Our vaunted socialist press, as much as they would love to kill more Americans with these inflammatory photos, have yet to step up to the plate and fulfill their journalistic duties with regard to the photos.

Personally, I think we have a rat in the house in Iraq, but thats just my crazy theory.

Posted by badanov 2004-05-21 2:40:10 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-05-21 2:40:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Rafael - If you want to sponsor Aris, be my guest - er, make that Fred's guest. No one forces him to do anything on RB, it's his choice and ego, nothing more. Make it huge. See Capitalism, Honor, Culpability, Personal Responsibility, etc. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-05-21 2:49:28 PM|| 2004-05-21 2:49:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Aris, Graner is not a homsexual and there are NO pictures of the guards having homosexual intercourse. Given that there were TONS of sex pictures there would be at least one that showed a homsexual act if there had been any? They didn't seem too shy about showing every which way you can hetersexual sex why not the gay stuff if it was going on? This has all the makings of an urban (homo fantasy) legend. To date ALL of the photos involving sexual intercourse have involved consesual girl/guy sex.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2004-05-21 3:15:09 PM|| 2004-05-21 3:15:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 All of these "new picures" and "new info", but it still seems to be just the same group of shit-eating-grin wearing losers everytime. I am not convinced that this (by this I mean the excessive abuse)is widespread, but rather that the individuals that have already been apprehended (at least one already convicted) were just very busy little tormentors.

Posted by spiffo 2004-05-21 3:17:38 PM|| 2004-05-21 3:17:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Quick observations here:

1. Following Aris' logic that these are crimes against humanity, then so were the fajullah murders, the nick Berg murders, and Saddam's entire regime, since these are far worse in that people lost their lives. We were justified, at the time, to invade and stop those crimes. If Aris denies this, he's applying the rules differently, based on who he's accusing, and thus is a hypocrite as well as being clearly incompetent to judge anything.

2. We may have higher goals and standards, but we must be judged in the same way and on the same scale as everyone else. For instance, olympic athletes may differ in committments and personal goals, but when the gun sounds, the one who has higher goals and trains harder should not be arbitrarily given a handicap, or the less ambitious given a head start. Anything else is patently unfair and conceals an agenda of injustice, robbing the "judge" of any moral standing.

3. Scale does matter. Otherwise, a Greek murderer is equated to Hitler, and thus equating Greece to Hitler's Germany. Aris may try to wriggle out by arguing that Greece would judge the murderer, but his excuse equally applies to the United States because these "nonmurderers" are ALSO being tried. An excuse that works for Greece, but "magically" and "conveniently" does not apply to america, IS HYPOCRISY. RANK HYPOCRISY.

4. Aris is guilty of sloppy and poor reasoning: to argue that "the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty" is the core logic of racisim and bigotry. This application was done without thought, without consideration, without looking at the facts, without justice, without reason, WITHOUT A BRAIN. We're better than you, Aris, since we didn't attack Saudi Arabia upon finding that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis.

Very lame, Aris. Very lame.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-21 3:59:15 PM|| [HTTP://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-21 3:59:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#44
#9 Aris says:"You have a nasty habit of utterly failing to understand my words."!

Maybe it is because you have a nasty habit of being ambiguous in the assemblage of your words.

HTH!

-AR

Posted by Analog Roam 2004-05-21 4:56:46 PM|| 2004-05-21 4:56:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Aris-Clarification:

Beatings, sodomy, rape, murder--yes these are all crimes.

Being frightened with dogs? This is intimidation.

Being forced to wear underwear on your head? Being paraded nude in front of others? Soldiers forced to simulate sex publicly or be stacked upon each other? These acts are humiliation, not torture. Good can actually come from this--IF the prisoner victims are able to see a parallel with the way they were treated and the way they treat women in their own Islamic societies in situations of humiliation and helplessness. I doubt that these prisoners will use this opportunity, however, to advance the Islamic/Iraqi culture in terms of consciousness of what is humane.

As far as all people being capable of evil, I agree with you. Why does it seem so common though that laughter and glee accompany news of atrocities against Westerners in the Islamic world? These reactions DO differentiate our cultures.

Posted by jules 187 2004-05-21 5:34:15 PM|| 2004-05-21 5:34:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Jules, it may only be effective if they're told that that's what they do to their women. Otherwise, they'll never get the idea. It must be explained to them.

I'm not sure where I end up in this debate. I think, Aris, you may be blowing things slightly out of proportion (and at the very beginning, when I said them, I meant our enemy - Islamists and other assorted dictators and evildoers - in general, not the people in the prison specifically, though they may fall under the heading) with the "crimes against humanity" vs. "crimes against humans." However, I do find it rather odd - I may have said this before - that there are so many photos, so much documentation. Even if they were getting a thrill out of it, I find it highly unlikely that they were so dumb that they didn't realize that it might leak out. Hell, Pam and Tommy Lee learned that the hard way, and they were only taking home movies. Lesson from their story and others like it: things that sell will get out. I do realize it's easy for me to sit here at my computer and mull this stuff over, but come on. They couldn't have not known that it was something others wouldn't have approved of. Why make a record of it to incriminate themselves later? There's something wrong with the picture.

And as for the fake photos, Badanov's right - if some are fake, then every one of them is suspect until we can determine which ones are real and which ones are Photoshopped (ah, modern corporate products verbs . . . have you Googled today?). And I find the release of - what was it, "hundreds of new photos"? - today a wee bit suspicious.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-21 7:12:37 PM|| 2004-05-21 7:12:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Ptah> Following Aris' logic that these are crimes against humanity,

Are you intentionally or in ignorance ignoring the fact that I admitted the "crimes against humanity" thing an exaggeration? A hyperbole?

then so were the fajullah murders, the nick Berg murders, and Saddam's entire regime, since these are far worse in that people lost their lives.

Lives have been lost in Abu Ghraib also actually. And I could nitpick the rest of your sentence to death, but there's no point to it.

We were justified, at the time, to invade and stop those crimes.

No shit, you think? I've actually stated several times that I believe that indeed I feel the USA had every moral right to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein, as well as every other dictatorial regime in the face of the world.

If Aris denies this,

I don't.

he's applying the rules differently,

I'm not.

based on who he's accusing, and thus is a hypocrite

I'm not.

Analog Roam> I remember about a year or so ago when I had ranted in a Greek forum about the Greek police's treatment of some immigrant. It wasn't even torture at that case, I was simply angered that coming to the scene of a crime, they had immediately grabbed and handcuffed the foreigner who actually was the victim of the case. I don't remember all the details anymore.

My point is that some people still said I was exaggerating, etc, same as here, but I don't remember anyone being stupid enough to call me an anti-Greek bigot.

But here to rant about some Americans' doings or to show distrust about the way the army treats its prisoner -- and suddenly I'm an anti-American bigot.

When I had asked in an earlier thread "Do you have the wisdom?" Rafael likewise pretty much said that I was implying that Europeans were genetically more intelligent than Americans.
*sarcasm* What excellent perception that guy. He doesn't only read between the lines, he *rearranges* the lines, shakes them upside down and then finds the more twisted way possible of reinterpreting them to find bigotry and reacism therein. */sarcasm*.

So, no dear Analog boy, I doubt it's my words that are the problem here, not in the 90% of the cases atleast. I think it's much more likely that the problem is the nationalistic touchiness that often fills Rantburg like a thick smoke. And the need of many to stereotype the other.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 9:17:02 PM|| 2004-05-21 9:17:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 A request from the peanut gallery:

Please attack arguments, not authors.

thanx . . . hugs

Posted by spiffo 2004-05-21 9:21:49 PM|| 2004-05-21 9:21:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Rafael likewise pretty much said that I was implying that Europeans were genetically more intelligent than Americans.

That was in reference to that German schlep who wrote something about American intellect, or something like that. The story was posted here on Rantburg but I don't have the time to hunt it down.

I think many here will agree that Europeans tend to think they're smarter than Americans. Sometimes it's implied.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-21 9:33:11 PM|| 2004-05-21 9:33:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Died in his sleep, according to the death certificate

To the people who think the Fallujah thing was worse because "people died there". As opposed to the non-people that were beaten to death by their torturers, I guess.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 9:36:43 PM|| 2004-05-21 9:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Give it a rest, anti-Bushers

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-21 9:40:16 PM|| 2004-05-21 9:40:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 And suddenly, Aris is reduced to screaming "Am Not!" and "Did Not!"

Back it up, spud, or go to bed like the nasty little boy you are.

Posted by abaddon 2004-05-21 10:26:51 PM|| 2004-05-21 10:26:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 #47: Oh really, Aris? so what am I to make of
"May Allah comfort the pain of the tortured and raped in Abu Ghraib -- may vengeance be taken upon all the demonspawn that participated in these crimes against humanity."? You never did DENY it, just admitted that you exagerated "Lives have been lost in Abu Ghraib also actually." Cite the deaths that were caused in this incident. Links please, not a picture that could be saddam-era, and thus published with as little investigation as the Iraqui woman "rape" photos. You MAY have a point that we have an agena, but why the gullible assumption that NOBODY ELSE has an agenda?

I think it's much more likely that the problem is the nationalistic touchiness that often fills Rantburg like a thick smoke. Oh ABSOLUTELY. Without a DOUBT. Can't disagree with you there in any particular. When it comes to nationalism, we poor americans can't hold a candle to you and Murat. We do crazy stuff like court martialing our own soldiers on crimes we discover, embarassing our nation in ways you two would NEVER dream of doing.

#48 Spiffo: There are three purposes to make an argument: to find the truth, to discover a better way to attain virtue, or to tear down and condemn. This was a legitimate article that Aris posted, but his comments indicated to me that his purpose was not the first two, since he took an accusation by an Islamist and treated it as gospel truth. As usual, .com (#5) was on the money. Its delusional to pretend that an argument with the third purpose is equivalent to the first two, and thus attack it without asking proper questions about the competence and fairness of this self-selected "judge".

I'll admit to a bit of Jacksonian annoyance here: I'm a fair arguer while the other person stays fair, but the moment they start passing off bigoted swill as argument is when I drop the pretense that their arguments are "proper" and deserve a respect they failed to retain.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-21 10:41:22 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-21 10:41:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Abaddon, Ptah asked if I do and I said I did not. Question, answer. Simple as that. If you are calling that "reduced", well yeah, reduced is right: Ptah reduced all his criticism of me to "If you did that, then you're a hypocrite", and the adequate reply was reduced to "I did not and so I am not."

But like Rafael and others, you seem incapable of parsing a sentence, abaddon. But I guess I forget the rampant stupidity that's another of the trademarks of many of the people here.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 10:45:25 PM|| 2004-05-21 10:45:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 "You never did DENY it, just admitted that you exagerated "

Um, distinction without a difference anyone? But if you want a straightforward "denial", very well, here you go: It's an inaccure exaggeration to call the actions of these people "crimes against humanity", because the term is usually applied when the crimes pertain to much wider segments of the civilian population. If the people involved had done the same crimes against wider segments of the civilian population, *then* it would have been "crimes against humanity".

Happier now? I don't see how the above is any different to what I stated in posts above already.

"Cite the deaths that were caused in this incident"

Which incident? Unless I'm very much mistaken in my understood translation of the German, there's a US-issued certificate that labels that man to have died in his sleep. Click the link after.

"When it comes to nationalism, we poor americans can't hold a candle to you and Murat. We do crazy stuff like court martialing our own soldiers on crimes we discover, embarassing our nation in ways you two would NEVER dream of doing"

I rest my case. When it comes to nationalism, it's you who assumes that an attack against some Americans as individuals is an attack against the whole of America, and it's you who thinks that a comparison between people somehow transforms into a comparison between nations. Aka "nationalism". You think that everything, every idea, every criticism, personal or notl, resolves around your nation. Yeah, Greece as a whole (or Turkey) may be more nationalistic than America as a whole. But that's *irrelevant*, because I didn't condemn America as nationalistic. I condemned Rantburg and many of the people here.

And as a sidenote, Rantburg is not representative of America either btw. I somehow doubt that half the Americans here had voted for Gore.

"You MAY have a point that we have an agena, but why the gullible assumption that NOBODY ELSE has an agenda?"

I know that many people have agendas. But I also see the photos, which nobody official has actually yet claimed to be false, because they know they aren't. So I'm supposed to accept the word of y'all instead, whose claims of the photos being false go against the word both of the actual people accused and the US administration -- based on what? Your sheer will to believe in the falsehood? You do believe, you do believe in fairies. But I don't. I believe in the undisputed evidence of my eyes.

So unless you find me someone actually involved in the case, defendant prosecutor or admin that claims one of those photos of Abu Ghraib to be fake, then I will accept them as real.

And urge that ALL the photos be made public, because I'm getting quite tired of the denial.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 11:20:38 PM|| 2004-05-21 11:20:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Really, Aris? First it was a "crime against humanity," then it was just a question of "scale?" By saying the latter, you didn't say the former? Funny how that works...

Ptah does have a point regarding your application of scale:
But here to rant about some Americans' doings or to show distrust about the way the army treats its prisoner -- and suddenly I'm an anti-American bigot.
Yes, you are. You jump from one, to the many--or at least from the few to the multitudes. What "army" did this? Are you saying it was "army" policy? That's exactly the thing Ptah was accusing you of, and you were screaming "did not."

And if you're not applying the rules differently, then you're at least applying them selectively. Where is the outrage against Berg's murder?

"parse a sentence?" Then you'd better get going with those sentences, bucko. I can't work with what's not there.

Posted by abaddon 2004-05-21 11:27:49 PM|| 2004-05-21 11:27:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 "By saying the latter, you didn't say the former?"

Somehow I imagined that by claiming earlier words of mine to have been exaggerations, I admit to have exaggerated.

Ofcourse in your little world, logic might work differently and someone who admits to have exaggerated isn't actually admitting to an exaggeration, but admitting to something different instead.
---

"You jump from one, to the many--or at least from the few to the multitudes. "

Not I actually leapt from a few *here*, to the possibility of a few elsewhere as well.

Ofcourse you want to believe that all the bad apples in the US army happened to have concentrated in this one part of this one prison -- perhaps you want to believe that similar "systemic problems" in other location might not lead to similar situations arising.

In short, you want to believe there's not a chance of this happening elsewhere. I wish I could believe that too.

"That's exactly the thing Ptah was accusing you of,"

Actually Ptah kept on rambling bizarrely and insanely, on and on and on claiming I said things I never claimed. I stopped him at his first false point and ignored the rest of his post as the trash it was.

And yeah, this is condensension and contempt on my part.

"Where is the outrage against Berg's murder? "

When I see someone supporting it, the way I've seen people here support the torture of Abu Ghraib, you may be sure I'll be outraged for that support as certainly as I've been outraged for the support of the torture.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-21 11:50:01 PM|| 2004-05-21 11:50:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Heck folks, until the courts play this out, it's all hearsay. Those who truly screwed up will get punished, end of story. Military courts are pretty quick and efficient in my experience about taking care of business - and being fair about it.

As far as hazing vs torture, I've seen some hazing, hell, even been hazed by the pros a few times. Hazing/intimidation is not torture. Raper is torture (if true, which I doubt) and any soldier convicted of butt-slamming some 18 yr old should be shot.

Now, the soddomy via phosphorescent light story is amusing, no phospor light is going to get up some dude's ass without busting, otoh, maybe this guy meant a 'chemlight' which is a hard plastic cyalume stick about a one foot long and half inch wide - we use them all the time at night to mark paths, air strips, & now possible to stick them up some jihadi's arse.

Good thread though, spent the last 15 min's lmao at the back and forth between you all.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-21 11:55:29 PM|| 2004-05-21 11:55:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 But if it'll make you happier, Abaddon, for me to answer to Ptah's trash points, here I go:

"3. Scale does matter. Otherwise, a Greek murderer is equated to Hitler, and thus equating Greece to Hitler's Germany"

Wow! Nationalism as its very core, where the comparison of people turns into comparison of countries. Well, I'm quite comfortable with equating several Greek murderers or philo-Nazi Greek politicians (e.g. Karatzaferis) to Hitler --because I feel confident they'd have the will, even though they happen not to have the power. But why in the world does the existence of the villain make the country villainous?

"Aris may try to wriggle out by arguing that Greece would judge the murderer, but his excuse equally applies to the United States because these "nonmurderers" are ALSO being tried."

Indeed. Yet again Ptah (like other idiots here in the past, like Rafael) claims something quite obvious and true and seems to believe that I somehow disputed it. So it only leaves the impression that I somehow condemned the whole of America WHEN YOU CAN'T FIND A SINGLE POST OF MINE TO HAVE DONE SO?

"An excuse that works for Greece, but "magically" and "conveniently" does not apply to america, IS HYPOCRISY. RANK HYPOCRISY"

Since I've actually claimed that Greece is worse off in pretty much everything than America (with the exception of the death penalty), I very much wonder where he found any case where I actually tried to excuse Greece for something, *anything* that I didn't excuse America?

Once again -- second false impression Ptah attempts to make -- namely that I somehow am hypocritical about Greece's failings making her excuses that I don't make the USA. I wonder if he can find a single example of the same.

"4) Aris is guilty of sloppy and poor reasoning: to argue that "the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty"

But I never argued that. Not once. I could believe that Ptah has just lied against me, but I think I'll again choose to simply believe him an idiot.

See now, why my contempt towards all this post of Ptah's and his bizarre allegations? My preferred reaction would have been to treat it as I treated Jen's goatfucking insults. Silence.

But you seem to have wished it, so I oblige. "Nope, I didn't, nope I haven't" is what this whole reply of mine reduces to.

Goodnight.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 12:06:35 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:06:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#60 I'm sorry Aris, I can't understand what you're saying until you get that big schlange out of your mouth.

"Exaggeration" assumes at least the barest grain of truth before aggrandizement. You hardly admitted you exaggerated--and didn't at all answer the very legitimate points of contention about your definition of "torture," bizarre moral equivalency, and sense of scale.

Not I actually leapt from a few *here*, to the possibility of a few elsewhere as well. Ofcourse you want to believe that all the bad apples in the US army happened to have concentrated in this one part of this one prison -- perhaps you want to believe that similar "systemic problems" in other location might not lead to similar situations arising. In short, you want to believe there's not a chance of this happening elsewhere
See, that's the part where I have trouble undersatnding you with that cock in your mouth. Maybe say it again, in the King's English, with attention to that "parsing" bit your were mentioning earlier.
Ptah had more meaningful points in one post than you've had in the last week. I haven't given up on you--I just want to remark upon some points for improvement.

Posted by abaddon 2004-05-22 12:11:54 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:11:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#61 The definition of torture I used is the definition of the International Criminal Court.

"Exaggeration" assumes at least the barest grain of truth before aggrandizement.

To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate: To enlarge or increase to an abnormal degree:

Maybe say it again, in the King's English, with attention to that "parsing" bit your were mentioning earlier.

Besides the typo at the beginning where "No, I" turned into "Not I" the rest is quite good English.

Ptah had more meaningful points in one post than you've had in the last week.

Too bad none of his meaningful points were adressed to the real me. They were addressed to to some fictional version of me who hypocritically excuses Greece's failings, who attacks and condemns the whole of America for the actions of a few, and who thought that the USA didn't have the moral right to overthrow Saddam.

In short they were addressed to some stereotypical anti-American of the kind many Rantburgers would feel more comfortable if I actually was one.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 12:25:02 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:25:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#62 No, Aris, I said stop sucking that thing!

Ptah made a very valid logical point of extension. If you can assume (as you did) that the American servicemen in this controversy were just "as bad as Saddam," then by extension Ptah can certainly ask you if feel that your average Greek assmaster is just "as bad as Hitler." Maybe you don't feel that Saddam and Hitler are comparable--but that's something you should have considered before deciding to attack the argument as you did.
So, Aris, are Greek anarchists terrorists or freedom fighters? Would you excuse the interrogation methods of Greek authorities if they seemed at all similar to the alleged methods of Americans in Iraq? Pick a side, please.

the few are guilty, therefore all are guilty" Please, Aris, you did it again even as I was speaking with you. You know, from the one, to the many; from the few, to the all. You talk about the soldiers, and then America. You say that because this alleged happening was unjust, the war is wrong, etc etc.

But what's up with this obsession about nationalism? Is it bad, or something different? Or is it only bad when it's Americans being nationalistic? Why should Americans be denied something allowed for every other people on G-d's green earth? And how is America being "nationalistic" in Iraq? You don't mean "colonial," do you?

Posted by abaddon 2004-05-22 12:30:39 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:30:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#63
I rest my case. Some people, you just can't reach.

Posted by abaddon 2004-05-22 12:37:36 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:37:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#64 then by extension Ptah can certainly ask you if feel that your average Greek assmaster is just "as bad as Hitler."

I don't understand what "assmaster" means, but I already said that I feel quite comfortable to call several Greek people "as bad as Hitler".

"So, Aris, are Greek anarchists terrorists or freedom fighters? "

Terrorists.

Would you excuse the interrogation methods of Greek authorities if they seemed at all similar to the alleged methods of Americans in Iraq?

No.

Please, Aris, you did it again even as I was speaking with you

Ah, you are a liar then. I was wondering if you were an idiot or a liar.

You say that because this alleged happening was unjust, the war is wrong, etc etc.

NO, I NEVER ONCE SAID THAT, YOU FUCKING LIAR.

But what's up with this obsession about nationalism? Is it bad, or something different?

At its best it's no more than a mild annoying ethnocentrism, but it's often as bad as racism, dearie, and often much more deadly. Imagine if every comment I made was attributed to my race, the same way people here have seen fit to attribute it to my nation.

Or is it only bad when it's Americans being nationalistic? Why should Americans be denied something allowed for every other people on G-d's green earth?

Oh, it was pretty bad when the Serbs went nationalistic and they drowned all of Yugoslavia in blood, I'm sure you'll agree. And when the the Greeks and Turks go nationalistic on each others' asses that's pretty bad too. And when the Irish Catholics murder the Protestants and vice versa, that's not a religious dispute, that's nationalism, dearie.

And how is America being "nationalistic" in Iraq?

I never said it was. I said many of the Rantburgers were nationalistic.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 12:44:25 AM|| 2004-05-22 12:44:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#65 This issue is like beating a dead horse and shall be knocked of the front page, if just one attempt is made by a Muslim suicide bomber in any America city.

Wake up and focus on the enemy not the smoke screen in effect assisting the Islamic terrorists as 'victims'. The real victims are not being reported on. Why? We are in a war, in case the leftwing media forgot.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-05-22 12:51:10 AM|| [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1133085/posts] 2004-05-22 12:51:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#66 "I said many of the Rantburgers were nationalistic."
This is a feature, not a bug!
You just don't "get it," Katsaris, and you never will.
That's OK, because Western Civilization doesn't need to save it (Thank God).

Posted by Jen 2004-05-22 1:24:31 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-22 1:24:31 AM|| Front Page Top

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