Article

2004-08-20 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by .com 2004-08-20 12:33:06 AM|| || Front Page|| [12 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The picture is worth a thousand words. But, I bet, the dome is still intact. That must be somewhere near the ashheap.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-20 12:40:47 AM|| 2004-08-20 12:40:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Cordon Sanitaire around the Mosque - by firepower. They are knocking down the outer perimeter and peeling away all the buildings near the mosque wall.

Why? Because it forces the Al Sadr boys back to the mosque - and denies them any sort of cover if they decide to come out under a truce banner - no "melting away" this time - they go into the trucks as prinsoners, and are much more easily disarmed.

Plus, there is a heck of a lot of psychological power to such an assault being drummed home. Unleashing hell all around them, and sustaining it... it will wear them down.

The only thing missing is the local clerics (Sistani needs to talk to them) publicly condemning Sadr to completely cut their morale.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-20 12:47:23 AM|| 2004-08-20 12:47:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Being shelled must be as an intense a situation that a combatant could endure. There is only so much dirt a guy could hug. Poor ingnorant buggers. Tater has alot of splaining to do to his band of bros at the raisin ration stall.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-20 12:58:58 AM|| 2004-08-20 12:58:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I bet they aren't dancing anymore.

Posted by B 2004-08-20 1:01:13 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:01:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Lucky, I agree. Poor little tots thought it was all going to be fun and so PC. Thought the Americans were a bunch of puppy dogs. Sooner or later the world will realize that US and good Iraqi citizens aren't playing games. This one is for keeps.

Posted by B 2004-08-20 1:03:26 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:03:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Can anyone give me the details on what sort of heart surgery Sistani's undergoing or has undergone?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-08-20 1:03:35 AM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2004-08-20 1:03:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Fuck that Mosque!! Fuck all who support this asshole!! Wipe the place clean!!
Load them on a truck?!?!?! Fuck that!! Kill them as they walk out!! They should be treated like the Russians treated the Germans as they took over Berlin! On your knee's bitch and in this case a USA .45 slug to the head!!! Enough of this bullshit and this so called sensitive war bullshit. One more of our guys die's because of this kind of warfare is going to have me thinking differently about our current leadership!!

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-08-20 1:08:25 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:08:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Here's the link to the Najaf maps again, in case you didn't save before...

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 1:10:44 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:10:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 I don't understand. Why don't they drop an emp to black out any media at the shrine, denying them there propaganda footage, and then drop several hundred canisters of tear gas by air.

Then make trip after trip with armor through the surrounding area until the resistance drops to a managebale level?

Just my thoughts.

Posted by Cog 2004-08-20 1:11:04 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:11:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Phil, I think Sistani was scheduled for assasination. He's smart, knows what is, is.

I think he was told the score, pointed toward the train and advised that his ticket was good for a seat on it.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-20 1:22:31 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:22:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Here's the link to the Najaf maps again, in case you didn't save before

Thanks, .com. I missed it the first time. I did find one image-caption interesting:

The shrine was damaged during the Shiia uprising of 1991 and was closed for reconstruction for the following two years.

Posted by Pappy 2004-08-20 1:28:43 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:28:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Look closely at this image (cropped from one of the GlobalSecurity satellite images) - this is a fortress... Now, re-think all those great generic solutions that have been offered - but customized to the reality you see here.

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 1:30:06 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:30:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 I suggest dropping a GPS guided cement block right through the center of that onion.

Posted by Rafael 2004-08-20 1:41:08 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:41:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Rafael: I suggest dropping a GPS guided cement block right through the center of that onion.

Now, now. Be nice.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-20 1:47:50 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-20 1:47:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 From BBC:

"Debris flies from a building as US forces attack insurgent targets from the air."

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 1:48:27 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:48:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 I think 200 canisters of retch gas would be far more effective, and less damaging to physical structures. Of course, it'll take Sadr about ten years of scrubbing on his hands and knees to get the place clean again afterwards, but can you think of a more deserving punishment?

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-08-20 1:55:22 AM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-08-20 1:55:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 From BBC:

"A US gunner trains his sights on Iraqi militiamen loyal to Moqtada Sadr in the al-Jadida al-Talat area, 200m south of the shrine of Imam Ali."

200M South puts him well inside the Old City... You can see this clearly in Map 9. The squeeze is definitely on.

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 1:58:56 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:58:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 He had heart surgery.com

Posted by FlameBait93268 2004-08-20 1:59:13 AM|| 2004-08-20 1:59:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 FB - Er, you meant Phil, I believe.

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 2:01:25 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:01:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Phil---al Sistani had an angioplasty on his ticker to ream out a coronary artery.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-20 2:05:49 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:05:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Old Spook---It was my fervent hope that other Shi'ite clerics would condemn al Sadr's behavior. I am disappointed that they would not. If they do not take a stand at condemning such criminal behavior by a so-called cleric, they will never get out of the hole that they are in, and they will forever condemn themselves to be martyrs, hagglers, but never real leaders who raise consciousness of their followers. */idealistic rant*

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-20 2:12:32 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:12:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 .com---looks like they bombed the long building with the line of columns, top center of pic beyond the wall of the mosque, about 1:00 position.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-20 2:14:57 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:14:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 AP - Hmmm. Bldg's not long enough - unless that's a bombed-out section to the right of it in the bldg pic. And the POV would be from the roof of the shrine's outer wall if you're right. So now we're talking cell-phone with camera inside. If that all adds up to true - we might gets some really hairy images off that phone by the time this winds up. I think the twinkie will be too busy to call anyone soon enough...

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 2:21:19 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:21:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 There's another pic from the same sequence here.

And speaking of cell phones...

His aide, Haider al-Tourfi, said al-Sadr sent a text message rejecting conditions the Iraqi cabinet sought to place on his surrender. The message read, "Either martyrdom or victory." Source.

Posted by Rafael 2004-08-20 2:32:56 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:32:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 yup - they're blowing away the outer walls with the AC130s. sweet!

Morning will dawn with the mosque surrounded by a 1400 acre gravel parking lot and a lot of pissed off US and Iraqi soldiers.

Posted by spiffo 2004-08-20 2:35:11 AM|| 2004-08-20 2:35:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 I went to the BBC and took a look at their "Have Your Say" on this topic again. No one but the folks inside of Iraq and a few from the US seem to have the remotest clue. It's not Sadr's fault it's the US and U.K. needing to leave Najif/ Iraq right now and everthing will be ok. Folks I am not to really smart and I don't have a great education but I can see that this is exactly not going to solve Iraqs problems. I am totally smoked by the BBC editorial policy in respect to Iraq and the US. Enough to make me start looking for some good open source PHP based Blogging application for one of my Web sites.

I am so pissed at this point I am almost ready to say screw it smoke these bastards, the Imam Ali Mosque and a one square mile radius around it. I know thats not the smart way to fight but it might be a lesson for these Sadr/Majone milita and their fifth estate supporters.

Posted by FlameBait93268 2004-08-20 5:38:30 AM|| 2004-08-20 5:38:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 I am a staunch defender of the Beeb (sport without commercials, can't be bad) - but I have to admit that their news coverage of Iraq is beyond the pale - and not just Iraq, the war on terror, Blair's premiership etc.. You'd think the beeb was run by ragheads but it isn't - just rich liberals from public school and Oxbridge, in the main.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-20 5:54:27 AM|| 2004-08-20 5:54:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Longhair:

Don't forget--most of the Shi'a are friendlies. If we can get the job done without trashing a building they value, I'm all for that. If there is some damage to the building despite our best efforts, they'll blame the Tater Tots and not us.

Have a little faith. I think the people running this operation know what they're doing.

Posted by Mike 2004-08-20 7:21:54 AM|| 2004-08-20 7:21:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 faith is not the problem, I just get sick of this "truce time" bullshit....."wait were getting our ass kicked quick call a truce!!" It has been happening way to much lately....

Posted by Long Hair Republican 2004-08-20 7:30:19 AM|| 2004-08-20 7:30:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 AP:

With peace efforts continuing, Najaf appeared far more quiet late Friday morning than it has in weeks. U.S. tanks were on the streets, but residents reported seeing some of al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia pulling out of the Old City.
The Imam Ali Shrine (search) compound, which had been filled with hundreds of chanting and bellicose gunmen in recent days, appeared far calmer Friday. Video of the compound and its outskirts, shown on the pan-Arab station Al-Jazeera, revealed far fewer people inside and no armed men. One sandbagged gun position outside the shrine was abandoned.

What the hell is going on?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-20 8:03:34 AM|| 2004-08-20 8:03:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 To Libby,

Sadr wants to trick the Americans to bomb down the shrine, would upset the whole shia world and at least double the insurgence.

Posted by Murat 2004-08-20 8:08:36 AM|| 2004-08-20 8:08:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 How would LEAVING (or pretending to leave) the shrine get the US to bomb it? If he wants us to bomb it he would stay in it.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-20 8:12:13 AM|| 2004-08-20 8:12:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Maybe their trick is to make believe that a part of the militia have left the town and the rest of them hide in the shrine.
Suppose it turns out that no millitia is inside the shrine when bombed, then no one especially the Shia wont believe the US anymore, exactly what Sadr would like to happen.

Posted by Murat 2004-08-20 8:26:00 AM|| 2004-08-20 8:26:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 God, I love it when our guys are allowed to serve justice. No Tater left behind.

Posted by Capt America 2004-08-20 8:52:09 AM|| [http://captamerica.blogspot.com/] 2004-08-20 8:52:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 would be really surprised if there isn't some combination of gas grenades or other delivery systems that couldn't get the Imam Ali Mosque cleared al-Sadr and Jihadists.

Bombs and bullets are fun, but there must be some way to gain complete control of the Mosque, really a fortress as .com noted, short of destroying it.

Let's get creative here, Gentlemen, as the Russians did the Moscow Theater.

Be Good,

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-08-20 9:03:31 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:03:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 You'd think the beeb was run by ragheads but it isn't - just rich liberals from public school and Oxbridge, in the main.

Howard, they have been taught to be "contrarian" by Oxbridge and their tenure at BBC. They cannot afford to be seen as pro-anything except the most liberal social issues. They are scared to death of having any establishment partisanship eke out of their little corrupted minds and organization. I just left living in the UK for 6 years and the BBC version of partisanship for the oppressed and vexation to the oppressor even turns up in their Olympic coverage.

Posted by Jack is Back 2004-08-20 9:15:58 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:15:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 The US forces will NOT use tear or other gas. Use of these gasses in combat is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

However, use of these gasses by the duly constituted Iraqi authorities during a police action in their own country is quite legal and accepted.

Ahem.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 9:17:23 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:17:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 JiB - I Quite agree.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-20 9:23:18 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:23:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 Dear RKB:

Even non-lethal gases? It this is the case, I would imagine that this would give a perfect opening then to re-visit the 4th (?) Geneva Accords.

There are good and legitimate reasons to use gas in this situation...both to save life, (not much of a concern here on Rantburg...lol...but still important in the wider world), as well as protecting a historical monument.

Sometimes you have to stand up and take the hit...full in the face if it is the right thing to do. I understand your subtrafuge of saying the Iraqi's did it in a police action...it is subtle to be sure, but it may better to just take the hit on this one.

Kind of say, we're going to save lives and save the Mosque...and set a good example for the world.

Best wishes,

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-08-20 9:27:07 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:27:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 flash - sistani says he WILL accept the handover of the shrine. Looks like theres a deal. But not that bad a one. No get out of jail free pass for Sadr. Just an agreement not to storm the shrine, in return for Sadr leaving it. Expect the battle to shift elsewhere.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-20 9:30:54 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:30:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 Video of the compound and its outskirts, shown on the pan-Arab station Al-Jazeera, revealed far fewer people inside and no armed men. One sandbagged gun position outside the shrine was abandoned.

What the hell is going on?

Well, since al J. was kicked out for a month, this video was fed to them & isn't live. That suggests it was filmed -- and perhaps faked -- a propaganda attempt to position the Mahdi gangs as poor, lonely fighters bravely standing up to the US (& Allawi) bullies ....

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 9:30:59 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:30:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 Dear RKB:

Even non-lethal gases?

Yup. Which is why we haven't been using them in Fallujah, Sadr City or Najaf.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 9:32:15 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:32:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 note this follows another 77 dead thugs overnight.

My sense is that the siege and the psychological impact of the AC130s got to them, and that Sadr was losing control of the thugs. If your forces are collapsing anyway, better to put the best face on it. Next question - will we get all thugs as they leave, or allow some to get away as part of the deal?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-20 9:35:29 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:35:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 flash - BBC, cites a Reuters report that Iraqi police have taken over the shrine of Ali!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-20 9:38:00 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:38:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 Sometimes you have to stand up and take the hit...full in the face if it is the right thing to do. I understand your subtrafuge of saying the Iraqi's did it in a police action...it is subtle to be sure, but it may better to just take the hit on this one.

Traveller, I'll respectfully disagree on this. US forces do not carry tear and other non-lethal gases as a rule and we do not want that wall breached with regard to combat.

If they are used in Najaf it will not be by the US forces themselves and there will be no subterfuge ... they will be used by Iraqis or not at all.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 9:38:11 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:38:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 All moot now - looks the the bombardment had its effect: Tater is leaving - and the Madhi are running a gauntlet on the way out.

And like I said, it took a cleric to resolve this. ANd it was Sistanie - and if you know the history of this mosque, you'll know its about the money.

Thats why Tater has murdered almost all the Imams that are between him and Sistani in terms of "inheriting" the mosque. This little bastard is a mafia boss, nothing more and nothing less.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-20 9:48:39 AM|| 2004-08-20 9:48:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 OS - for this occasion, if the report is true.

But I fear this kind of situation will not be rare over the next decade or so, and the ambiguities and tradeoffs involved will frustrate many.

BTW, LHR, the US has not used a 45 calibre handgun for a while now.

And re: comments on another thread, electromagnetic pulse is not an answer in this sort of situation either, since EMPs are generated by small nuclear explosions close to the target. It's considered counterproductive to nuke your own troops and fry their equipment ... Heh.

Take a deep breath, folks. Our military has given a great deal of thought to how to deal with these situations. Most of the concerns are political and strategic rather than tactical.

And re: calls to take off the gloves, remember that there are several serious reasons our own military stands by the Conventions. First, they provide some protection to our own troops if captured or on the battlefield.

Equally important is the effect on our own army, it's standards and professionalism, of the tactics we use. Some things you don't do because they are, quite literally, bad for the soul. It's an issue the military leadership takes very seriously. Cadets at West Point discuss the Dresden firebombing of WWII in some depth for that reason.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 10:49:24 AM|| 2004-08-20 10:49:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 RKB - about the 45 - the US Military has not OFFICIALLY used it for quite some time. But a lot of Ops guys I know prefer that round and still use it as of the last time I was with such folks.

I used to get in big arguments over the .45 vs the .40S&W - but for a FMJ round, the 45 is better, with hollowpoints, the .40S&W is my choice [Silvertip with more powder behind them]. Of course the hollowpoints are against the Geneva convention for use in warfare, or so they say.

But like I said in my post at the top: the overnight strikes were to physically isolate the Madhi Army and secondarily to demoralize all those inside the Mosque. Nothing wakes you up like an AC130 working out nearby - and from what I heard, there were more than one up at the same time.

This was a good resolution - it showed Sadr for what he is, propped Sistani back up, and showed that the Iraqis were ready to do it themselves - and that the Iraqi government does control the use of US forces (at least until we get something where we disagree). It also marks Allawi as a "strong man" who "wants peace" - and is willing to fight for it.

The shame of all this is that the Iraqi Congress being formed was overshadowed by all the action in Najaf.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-20 11:13:51 AM|| 2004-08-20 11:13:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 rkb: Cadets at West Point discuss the Dresden firebombing of WWII in some depth for that reason.

Bad for the soul, but good for obtaining the unconditional submission of the Germanies after the surrender, perhaps? Sometimes, the enemies' fear of complete annihilation is the only thing that will secure their submission. Interviews with survivors will typically elicit defiant words, but the reality is in their actions, not their words. There were no significant acts of resistance in Germany because their cities had been flattened, and 2 million civilians killed, in addition to 8 million of their troops.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-20 11:46:46 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-20 11:46:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 #21 It was my fervent hope that other Shi'ite clerics would condemn al Sadr's behavior. I am disappointed that they would not. If they do not take a stand at condemning such criminal behavior by a so-called cleric, they will never get out of the hole that they are in, and they will forever condemn themselves to be martyrs, hagglers, but never real leaders who raise consciousness of their followers.

Alaska Paul, I know your words were meant in a hopeful tone, but these are among the exact reasons why America has had to remain in Iraq. The usual thundering silence when it comes to any condemnation of Sadr by his fellow ~~thugs~~ clergymen shows that Iraq is still susceptible to imposition of theocratic rule. Obviously, that is what must be avoided at all costs.

#46 This little bastard is a mafia boss, nothing more and nothing less.

From all external appearances, it seems that this is the only role Sadr has ever played. Since the outset, my own view is that all of this mayhem was strictly about political power and had nothing to do with religion. Sadr's desecration of the Imama Ali shrine stands as proof positive of this. I'm still waiting for his capture as evidence of a successful operation, although dislodging him from the mosque was a significant PR victory.

#47 And re: comments on another thread, electromagnetic pulse is not an answer in this sort of situation either, since EMPs are generated by small nuclear explosions close to the target. It's considered counterproductive to nuke your own troops and fry their equipment ... Heh.

This is not at all the case. Ongoing R&D is working on an E-Bomb. This electromagnetic pulse generating ordnance has all of the damaging effects of a nuclear detonation without the blast radius. It's intensity is controllable and just as damaging. Simple Faraday cages can protect our own electronics during its deployment.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 12:15:23 PM|| 2004-08-20 12:15:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Sure, Zen, and we'll just whip up a bunch of them on the spot. hey you guys over there, stop shooting and help me weld these things, okay?

Pfeh.

Sorry for my attitude today, but I get annoyed with backseat tacticians ..... and yes, I do know about R&D efforts and no, they are not deployed and to my knowledge that one is not yet deployable. But if it were, our own equipment is not yet hardened against the effects of an E-bomb.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 1:53:04 PM|| 2004-08-20 1:53:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Gather up all the Camel Spiders you can find, hundreds of the bastards, and start dumping them through windows or whatever, into the mosque/shrine. That'd get ME to leave...

Posted by Anonymous 2004-08-20 1:59:42 PM|| 2004-08-20 1:59:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 this is a classic rantburg thread! Gotta love the internet.

Posted by B 2004-08-20 2:00:33 PM|| 2004-08-20 2:00:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 I always enjoy watching the news after a huge event like this. The CNNBBCETC news casters haven't been given their talking points on how to spin it as a loss for the Mericans and Joos - so you actually get some interesting commentary until the newsrooms can decide on a game plan.

Posted by B 2004-08-20 2:03:11 PM|| 2004-08-20 2:03:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 I do know about R&D efforts and no, they are not deployed and to my knowledge that one is not yet deployable.

You may wish to revise your stand regarding this, rkb.

Updated 3/20/2003 1:24 PM

U.S. may use 'e-bomb' during Iraq war

U.S. forces may use a new "e-bomb" during the invasion of Iraq as part of a 21st century blitzkrieg designed to render Saddam Hussein's forces blind, deaf, and incapable of retaliation. The highly classified bomb creates a brief pulse of microwaves powerful enough to fry computers, blind radar, silence radios, trigger crippling power outages and disable the electronic ignitions in vehicles and aircraft.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 3:04:55 PM|| 2004-08-20 3:04:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Yes, yes, I read that article from a while back too. But USAToday carefully avoids noting that the USAF labratory prototypes which create a microwave pulse require a large energy source.

And despite the suggestion that there are battlefield-ready systems (truck mounted, I would presume), there are a couple of problems with the idea that they would be used in/around Najaf.

First, the value of these is to fry command and control systems dependent on electronics. Not exactly the core technology of Sadr's militia.

Second, this is a capability that is intended for major systems like missile launch electronics and C3 (command/control/communications) systems.

Third, microwave pulses can be dangerous to humans in their way, depending on the distance. And we have troops all around that complex.

And again, just exactly who is it in Najaf that is most dependent on electronic systems which have not yet been hardened against microwave attacks? Yeah, that's right - we are.

So, IF we had a prototype ready to try out on the battlefield and IF we had it in Iraq and IF it was reliable and we knew its operational characteristics well and IFthere were trained operators and we had clear doctrine and tactical guidelines for how to use it,

then it STILL would not be the weapon of choice around the shrine.

There's a lot more to deploying a weapon system than aiming and firing it.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 3:24:22 PM|| 2004-08-20 3:24:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 rkb, your whining about "backseat tacticians" is also pretty funny. I was probably the first person at Rantburg who suggested using sleep gas to end the shrine's occupation. Without debating pertinent disagreements to this strategy, I was nonetheless joined by OldSpook, Fred and several others who agreed with such a move.

As to the e-bomb and it's lack of use in Iraq. I can only assume that military planners properly anticipated how we would quickly prevail without resorting to methods that could have severely crippled the subsequent recovery of Iraq's government. Another equally possible reason is that measures were probably not in place to protect all of our own gear from a massive EMP.

E-bomb technology has been around for several decades. My oldest brother described an early design for one to me back in the 1960s.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 3:33:49 PM|| 2004-08-20 3:33:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 No doubt Fred, Old Spook and others would like to see the use of sleeping or other gases in situations like the shrine.

That doesn't change the fact that the US Military believes, and teaches its officers, that to do so is against international agreements we've entered into.

And yes, yes ... all sorts of technology has been around for ages. I built or led the building of some of it.

Doesn't mean it's a reliable system for battlefield deployment or the right tool for this situation.

It's going to be a long decade. And a frustrating one.

It would help if the people who understand the need to fight a global war against Islamacist and other terror groups stay realistic with regard to their expectations and their assumptions.

Look: I teach cadets at West Point. I know what goes into defining doctrine, developing and testing weapons systems (I worked in the defense industry for a good part of my career), training units to use them correctly and then integrating it all into appropriate operations.

Is there a time and place to try out prototypes? Sure - it was done with UAVs last decade and is being done aggressively as we blog here. That said, this isn't a video game where there are all sorts of futuristic things to whip out and they always work well and you get 22,000 gold pieces for only 3 body damage points lost ....

Sigh.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 3:55:25 PM|| 2004-08-20 3:55:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 rkb...but we do get a saving throw, right?

Posted by Seafarious 2004-08-20 4:11:06 PM|| 2004-08-20 4:11:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 This is not at all the case. Ongoing R&D is working on an E-Bomb. This electromagnetic pulse generating ordnance has all of the damaging effects of a nuclear detonation without the blast radius. It's intensity is controllable and just as damaging. Simple Faraday cages can protect our own electronics during its deployment.

rkb, I will also ask you to please take note of the fact that nowhere in my post did I advocate using an e-bomb in the current situation. The sole intent of my mentioning them was to clarify how a servicable EMP can be generated without resorting to nuclear weapons.

As to the use of sleep gas. If you examine my previous post, I specifically mention "pertinent disagreements" to its use. I recognize that there are a lot of merits to arguments against using gas warfare, even in such a benign form. It is for that exact reason that I have not belittled detractors of my suggestion in any way.

As an aside, I detest video games and can count the quarters I've dropped into them on one hand. I think 99% of video games rot the brain and refuse to have a game box in my home.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 4:11:35 PM|| 2004-08-20 4:11:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Where shall I start Zen? :)

Posted by D-9s BackHoe Brother 2004-08-20 4:31:44 PM|| 2004-08-20 4:31:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Go to it, BHB.

When I start mentioning West Point pompously, it's time to deflate me a bit and send me outside for some fresh air LOL. I'll impose the penalty so y'all don't have to.

And, I confess it's been a while since I was directly involved with Directed Energy Weapons programs.

Just don't rag on our troops for not using tear gas or sleeping gas or Super Ray Guns or ninja invisibility or .... whatever .... okay? Even if Sadr is a seriously annoying twerp doing major damage right now. Sigh.

(Editor: put that keyboard down now and back away from the PC slowly .... Me: I'll defend my keyboard to the last drop of blood - no wait, that's the other guy's line ...)

Have a great weekend folks.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 4:43:28 PM|| 2004-08-20 4:43:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 rkb, allow me to be the first to express some appreciation for the civil and well-informed input that you have provided in this thread. It is specifically this sort of exchange that keeps me here at Rantburg. Your counter arguments are well founded and absolutely merit consideration. I too have worked with advanced technology, like laser gyros, SDS laser optics and stealth technology and take immense pride in having made contributions to those efforts. Please do not think that I would criticize those with their boots on the ground over in Iraq. My only concern is for the expeditious prosecution of the entire campaign so our worthy soldiers can come home at the soonest possible moment.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 5:15:40 PM|| 2004-08-20 5:15:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 AP - It was just confirmed on Fox that the bldg being whacked (photo above) was, indeed the building you pointed out from the satellite photo. Just thought you'd like to know! Good call!

Posted by .com 2004-08-20 5:27:01 PM|| 2004-08-20 5:27:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Thanks, Zen. Sorry, all, for being so pissy today. I figured out what was really bugging me and did something about it ... insofar as I could. I think I'm okay to come back to RB without being a hot air bag now LOL.

Posted by rkb 2004-08-20 7:33:09 PM|| 2004-08-20 7:33:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 .com---thanks for the confirmation. My photo interpretation skills weren't too rusty after a couple of decades of gathering rust, heh heh. It was the long roofline and the arches and columns that I saw. Too bad Tater was not in there. Now we are going to have to put up with more bazaar (bizarre) haggling, Iraqi style, in dealing with Tater.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-20 7:42:30 PM|| 2004-08-20 7:42:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Bless you rkb, and ROCK ON!

Posted by cingold 2004-08-20 7:49:08 PM|| 2004-08-20 7:49:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Thank you anyway, but no apology needed, rkb. After all this is Rantburg.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 8:19:48 PM|| 2004-08-20 8:19:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 RKB - the "sleeping gas" must be used by police forces though - the US military (outside of certain units) is not equipped - and the Geneva Convention does ban this sort of chemical agent. Using the Iraqi SF would be the way to go, since its an *internal* matter, and not subject to the GC.

As for the non-nuclear EMP, look up HERF. It allows you to direct High Energy RF and do the disabling.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-20 9:26:22 PM|| 2004-08-20 9:26:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Here's the link to a do-it-yourself HERF website. Great suggestion, OldSpook.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 9:53:12 PM|| 2004-08-20 9:53:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 I find the idea that warfare can be subject to rules in a rule-book to be a somewhat curious idea. That one tries to be as civil for as long as one possibly can, seems understandable.....however, true war implies that one is fighting for survival. Thus ultimately, any means will be considered acceptable to win.

Posted by B 2004-08-20 10:00:46 PM|| 2004-08-20 10:00:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 B, by "true war" I assume that you are referring to total war. I must heartily disagree with you. There are some means which will never be acceptable. Nazi Germany forever stands as a sordid example of those who think that ends can justify any means. There are limits beyond which one merges with even the worst of foes.

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-20 10:34:36 PM|| 2004-08-20 10:34:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Thanks for the HERF link. As I said, my familiarity (such as it was) with Directed Energy Weapons were for bigger systems, and a little awareness of some work in lasers going on now. My own technical expertise is in another area.

Lots to keep up on!

BTW, am I the only one worried about having HERF components available retail? Think about who would be hurt by their widespread availability and ease of use .....

Posted by rkb 2004-08-21 7:31:52 AM|| 2004-08-21 7:31:52 AM|| Front Page Top

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