Article

2004-11-14 Iraq-Jordan

Body of 'Western woman' found in Fallujah

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Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-14 6:05:55 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 A bit more info:
"The body of a blonde-haired woman with her legs and arms cut off and throat slit was found today lying on the street in Fallujah, a notorious enclave for hostage-takers, marines said."
...
"It is a female ... missing all four appendages, with a slashed throat and disembowled, she has been dead for a while but only in this location for a day or two," said Benjamin Finnell, a hospital apprentice with the Navy Corps, who had inspected the body.

An AFP photographer embedded with the marines said the woman was wearing a blue dress and her face was completely disfigured.

The marines said she appeared to have been on the street for about two days.

Posted by tipper 2004-11-14 8:40:18 AM|| 2004-11-14 8:40:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 From tipper's link:

"Two European women have been abducted in Iraq and remain missing. ... Teresa Borcz, 54, a Pole, has blonde hair ... Ms Borcz, married to an Iraqi and a resident in Iraq for 30 years, was abducted late last month. She has appeared in two video cassettes appealing to the Polish government to help her but her fate is unknown."

Let's hope the animals started the mutilations after she was already dead.

Anyone want to repeat their pet conspiracy theories about hostages like Ms Borcz? Now would be a good time to call her a coward, collaborator, an engineer of her own kidnapping. She's not going to come after you.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-14 8:50:56 AM|| 2004-11-14 8:50:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 If we saw pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib, why won't we see pictures of this? Because this is real torture.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-14 9:28:49 AM|| 2004-11-14 9:28:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Let's hope the animals started the mutilations after she was already dead. Anyone want to repeat their pet conspiracy theories about hostages like Ms Borcz? Now would be a good time to call her a coward, collaborator, an engineer of her own kidnapping

WTF?

I know who the bad guys are and I know who the victims are. The video of Hassan begging in tears for her life: how can anyone not see that video as indicative of the brutality of Islamists; to so thoroughly terrorize a woman that she loses her dignity begging for her life all the while knowing she will die. I cannot see the people who took her and others, who tortured her and then who released video of the event as anything but criminals and mass murders.

Posted by badanov 2004-11-14 9:35:25 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org/title-boris.gif] 2004-11-14 9:35:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I think BD was referring to speculation at the time Ms Hassan was abducted that, perhaps, her abduction was not authentic but was a ruse in which she cooperated with those whom she had befriended on the other side, a speculation worth considering in my opinion. Some went so far as to accept such speculation as fact and characterize her in the, then and now, inappropriate terms BD recalls.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-14 10:13:28 AM|| 2004-11-14 10:13:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I was one who speculated, acknowledged no facts in evidence, and won't apologize for it. Speculation is all it was, and of course, I feel sorry for whoever the dead woman is. There have been instances, such as the two Italian women, who apparently were with the other side. That allows me to speculate

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-14 10:28:19 AM|| 2004-11-14 10:28:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I never speculated that she was working for the other side. I merely said that she was a coward for cooperating with the guerrillas in the filming of these videos, where dozens of Iraqis and foreigners before her had met their fates stoically, depriving the guerrillas of propaganda victories, and preserving both their families' and nations' honor.

As to whether she had worked with the guerrillas, I don't have an opinion either way. But everyone should note that the guerrillas do turn on their supporters. Dozens of foreign jihadis have been shot execution-style for not obeying the orders of Saddam's men. Guerrilla movements enforce discipline via reigns of terror not merely among the civilian population but among their own followers. Mao and Lenin purged their movements frequently by executing people who deviated from the party line. Saddam frequently killed some number of his ministers to keep the rest in line.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-14 11:00:32 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-14 11:00:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Let me say also that while I think this woman was a coward, I do sympathize with the way she died. No one who is not one of the guerrillas deserves to die in this way. The guerrillas' viciousness is yet another reason that they should be convicted and hanged until dead, once they are captured, to deter others from following in their footsteps.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-14 11:04:11 AM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-14 11:04:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Jeez, you're a braver man than me ZF. I couldn't swear that I wouldn't come apart, I like to think I wouldn't.... but who knows.

Posted by Shipman 2004-11-14 11:13:53 AM|| 2004-11-14 11:13:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 ZF, Just for the record, you also referred to hostages like Teresa as 'scum of the earth', and not just as 'cowards'.

I sincerely hope that you never find yourself going through the same horrifying experiences that that 54 year old woman had to endure before her (probably extremely sadistic) murder. If you did, I wager that you'd find your insults less apt in that situation than they seem to be from the comfort of your swivel chair.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-14 11:31:05 AM|| 2004-11-14 11:31:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Bulldog-
FWIW, I was the one who made the first post that raised the possibility that Ms. Hassan's abduction might not have been what it seemed. However, I also stressed that all we had was some anomalies in the way her tapes were presented and nothing more than that, and that until we knew for sure otherwise the only prudent thing to do was to treat it as an abduction and do everything humanly possible to rescue her.
If at any time I gave the impression that I considered either of these women as actively assisting the bad guys, I sincerely apologize to you and everyone else here. It is repugnant to me to even want to think that anyone would cooperate in such a way with the monsters we are fighting. The fact remains however that there have been at least two high profile abductions which strongly appear to have been staged, and both of them had great similarities to Ms. Hassan's kidnapping. As awful as it was to consider, the possibility had to at least be looked at.

Respectfully,
Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-11-14 12:33:49 PM|| 2004-11-14 12:33:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 There's no need to apologize, IMO.

My thinking is that staged or not what we saw on the video was a woman clearly terrified of her captors. It may well turn out that in the early going she went along for the ride, but perhaps conditions changed, and what we saw was a woman originally helping Iraqi's, finding out later she was played for a fool and will pay for her partricipation with her life. I don't know.

Seeing this terrified person invoked my sympahy for her. Fortunely, were it to turn out to be a staged event I can't undo how I felt but I sure can how I feel.

I also understand where folks are coming from in getting the idea what Hassan was a coward for after all, this is a global war in which for the first time, whether they want to be or not, civilians are on the frontline. But at the same time I think it is important to note and to maintain the idea that inasmuch as they may be on the frontline, it doesn't make them soldiers. It doesn't make the Islamists' demands whether by force or by a staged event any more legitimate. Their impact is that it is a demonstration of just how brutal they will be if they ever come to power and ought to damn well be a warning of just what is at stake in this war.

Posted by badanov 2004-11-14 12:59:33 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-11-14 12:59:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Bulldog: I sincerely hope that you never find yourself going through the same horrifying experiences that that 54 year old woman had to endure before her (probably extremely sadistic) murder. If you did, I wager that you'd find your insults less apt in that situation than they seem to be from the comfort of your swivel chair.

I think you're saying that personal reactions should determine whether something is thought of as brave or cowardly. If I did the same thing as this woman - I would be astonished to hear anyone say anything but that my actions were cowardly. And they would be right to say that what I did was cowardly.

Rationalizations don't change the essential nature of an act. Bravery has nothing to do with the absence of fear - it has to do with overcoming fear to do the right thing. The fact is that some were brave and some were cowardly. The brave hostages will never be seen on TV, simply because it would not do for the guerrillas to show their victims defying them in the face of certain death. By and large, the American hostages did not beg - several British ones did. You can draw your own conclusions.

As to the comfort of my swivel chair, let me point out to you that residents of NYC have lost more people in a single day than have US military units have in combat over the past 10 years. (I was in the subway tunnel under the World Trade Towers when the planes hit, and quietly hysterical women walked quickly back towards the trains saying there had been a bomb*). More to the point, she knew that Iraqis were targeting Westerners and had plenty of time to steel herself against the possibility of kidnapping, given that she lived in the belly of the beast. (The logical thing to do would have been to leave, but she deluded herself with the idea that she was somehow immune, having gone native to the point of empathizing with the guerrillas). The World Trade Center victims had no such forewarning.

I fully expect terrorists to attack NYC yet again, simply because it is a such a densely-populated city. A Nagasaki-sized bomb would instantaneously kill hundreds of thousands of people.

* It's nothing like the movies, where everyone's sprinting and screaming out loud at the same time. I suspect people save their breath for getting out of the area, and instead of sprinting, adopt a brisk trot calculated to enable them to continue moving away from the danger zone for more than a few minutes.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-11-14 1:05:00 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-11-14 1:05:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 As for me, what I objected to in the behavior of Hassan was her sudden rediscovery of her British citizenship after decades spent living and representing herself as an Iraqi. Weeping is understandable; prostituting your nationality is reprehensible.

As to the other expat object of my scorn, Mr Bigley, what I found objectionable were his repeated personal injunctions to Tony Blair to save him. One can interpret this as desperation rather than mere cynicism, but regardless, these two were voluntarily furthering the propaganda aims of their fascist captors, and I think it fitting to criticize this behavior in hopes of shifting the tide of public opinion and denying the jihadists any utility from this appalling new PR trick.

As to i due Simone, I remain of the opinion that there were kickbacks involved, though I have no direct evidence. Their praise for their captors' "guerrilla struggle" upon their release suggests to me that my hunch is the right one.

Posted by lex 2004-11-14 4:02:49 PM|| 2004-11-14 4:02:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 It is possible for someone to agree to be a hostage for the other side and then be betrayed by the jihadists. I'm not saying that's what happened but jihadists telling untruths to infidels is not unknown.

Posted by RJ Schwarz 2004-11-14 6:04:36 PM|| [http://politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-11-14 6:04:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The brave hostages will never be seen on TV, simply because it would not do for the guerrillas to show their victims defying them in the face of certain death. By and large, the American hostages did not beg - several British ones did. You can draw your own conclusions.

ZF: Fabrizzio Quattrocchi wasn't seen on TV? You seem to accept that absence of evidence constitutes evidence of absence. Let me be the first to inform you that it doesn't. Your obssessive pervasive anglophobia has been obvious in your comments on this issue since day one. I would be interested to hear if you think that Teresa Borcz Khalifa was, before her disemboweling and dismemberment, facial mutilation and throat-cutting, a coward and scum of the earth, as is your opinion of Ken Bigley and Margaret Hassan. Presumably Daniel Pearl was also a coward, and scum of the earth for cooperating with his kidnappers and reading their demands on video? Or are only British murder victims worthy of the title scum of the earth, in your considered opinion?

What do you think about, for instance, those SOE agents who were captured after parachuting into occupied Europe during WWII? If they broke under German torture and interrogation, as many of them surely did, were they cowards and scum of the earth? I don't see how they could have been otherwise, using your logic. After all, they would have had plenty of time and even training, to steel themselves for the situations they found themselves in. Scum of the earth who had volunteered for their tasks in the full knowledge of the fate that would await them in the likely event that they were caught. Men and women who were broken by extreme physical and psychological stress. Few people would dream of calling any individuals broken by torture by the sort of despicable insults you freely apply.

What about Theo van Gogh? Reportedly, he pleaded with his murderer to 'have mercy' as he lay dying on the ground. Was he also a coward and scum of the earth? Or was he not, because there wasn't a video camera around at the time? Or was he not a scum of the earth because he wasn't British?

More to the point, she knew that Iraqis were targeting Westerners and had plenty of time to steel herself against the possibility of kidnapping, given that she lived in the belly of the beast. (The logical thing to do would have been to leave, but she deluded herself with the idea that she was somehow immune, having gone native to the point of empathizing with the guerrillas).

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support that last assertion? Any evidence whatsoever that she sympathised with her killers? That's just plain invention. And if you've had time to steel yourself, then torture and the prospect of your own murder ought to be a tolerable experience? What utter rot.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-14 6:43:37 PM|| 2004-11-14 6:43:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 My heart goes out to all those poor souls who find themselves at the point of hideous murder at the hands of these barbarians. Some will be defiant, some stoic and some beg for mercy. I have watched Marines cry and sob and call out for thier mothers. Evem if they should have known better, there is absolutely no excuse for judging these people faced with the unthinkable evil that confronts them. All we can do is pray for them and not relent in destroying all who would do such things.

Posted by Sgt. D.T. 2004-11-14 8:47:28 PM|| 2004-11-14 8:47:28 PM|| Front Page Top

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