Article

2006-06-30 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

Debka: deadlocked dispute between prime minister Olmert and defense minister Peretz

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Posted by 3dc 2006-06-30 02:11|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Evident fissures in Israeli ranks. I suppose that's to be expected, to some degree. But disturbing, nonetheless.

Posted by Scooter McGruder 2006-06-30 02:23|| 2006-06-30 02:23|| Front Page Top

#2 I hope and pray that this is a Debka salt lick and not the real thing. This is the last thing Israel needs now. They must be united and they must be strong.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2006-06-30 02:27|| 2006-06-30 02:27|| Front Page Top

#3 Debka is usually most accurate when it's closest to home. I'll bet this is pretty close to the mark.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2006-06-30 02:35|| 2006-06-30 02:35|| Front Page Top

#4 The retros do not have the capacity to learn from past object lessons. They can only perceive an obvious overwhelming direct threat as it's happening.

Negotiations without massive pressure [sic Apocalypse] will go nowhere.

Posted by RD 2006-06-30 02:51|| 2006-06-30 02:51|| Front Page Top

#5 Peretz: History will remember you very unkindly if you keep this up.

Posted by grb 2006-06-30 02:56|| 2006-06-30 02:56|| Front Page Top

#6 Debka has bigger axes to grind the closer home too.

Posted by 6 2006-06-30 05:33|| 2006-06-30 05:33|| Front Page Top

#7 Debka has an axe to grind? True enough.

But the highlights of this article (link). indicate to me that Debka is right on this.

"Israel destroyed the office of the Palestinian interior minister in a series of airstrikes Friday, increasing the pressure on the Hamas government to release a kidnapped soldier a day after it delayed a broad ground offensive into the Gaza Strip."

The Israelis have stopped in place, giving up surprise and tempo. The airstrikes seem to be some sort of half-assed political compromise between Israeli factions. This is the worst thing they could have done.

The article is also revealing for what it doesn't say: there aren't many casualties. If they were going door-to-door there would be more casualties.

Posted by Rory B. Bellows 2006-06-30 07:49|| 2006-06-30 07:49|| Front Page Top

#8 IMHO the soldier's been dead since the day they grabbed him. Shut off the water, shut off the power. Let the Paleos revel in their own sweaty stink as their food rots. Time is on Israel's side if they're willing to ignore the bleating from Europe

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-06-30 08:42|| 2006-06-30 08:42|| Front Page Top

#9 From the CSM:

"Amir Peretz, head of the Labor Party, was appointed to head defense. He is widely perceived to be strong on social issues but inexperienced in military matters, making his new posting controversial. Mr. Peretz's family immigrated to Israel from Morocco in 1956 and settled in working-class Sderot on the edge of the Gaza Strip. He became an army captain and was elected to Israel's parliament in 1988. In 1995, he became head of the Histadrut Labor Federation. Peretz often speaks of growing up in poverty and rants against Israel's free-market policies. He wrested leadership of Labor from elder statesman Shimon Peres in November."

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-06-30 08:52|| 2006-06-30 08:52|| Front Page Top

#10 Isn't Sderot the place taking all the rocket hits and the place the kidnapped/tortured/murdered civilian came from? This guy sounds like a former NYT editorial board member.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-06-30 08:59|| 2006-06-30 08:59|| Front Page Top

#11 NS,
Sderot is a small town in the western Negev. It has been constantly bombarded By Hamas Kassams since Israel withdrew from Gazza. The kidnapped Soldier comes from another part of the country (north of Israel). The reason Sderot is mentioned is that Perez resides there.

To Previous Commentors,
Debka indeed has a Political Ax to grind (Pro-Bibi Netaniahu). However, once in a while they do provide some interesting and verifiable information which makes me suspect that they do have some true contacts in Israeli Intelligence community. When they do have a true story, they always come out with it before any other Israeli news-source. Thats why I bother reading them, even though you have to filter out political stuff and fairy tales most of the time, youll occationally find some gold nuggests in the shitload.

Irrespective of the Axe-grinding they hit a basic truth in the perception of the situation : For a long time now the Israeli Labor Party is riding on the long spent ticket of peace talks with the Paleo's, negotiations and the "New Middle -East" dream of Shimon Peres (Ex Labor Party leader).
I think by now most Israeli's have realized that we indeed have no Partner for any negotiation.
Abu-Mazzen is an Impotent Wimp, The Hamas have declared openly in the International Press that they want to destroy Israel and they will never rest (except for a few ill concieved "Hudnas") till they drive us (Joooooo's and dirty zionists) into the sea.

The problem is that the unholy union between the Leftist Labour party and the Centr-Right Kadima party is beginning to burst at the seams (irrespective of whether there is a real dispute between Olmert and Peretz).
I say, if Olmert does not understand what we are facing ( A terrorist bunch who's strings are pulled by Iran and Syria) his government will not survive the next Six months.
I have in the past voted for Labor, I have switched to voting for Kadima after the second Intifada. It looks like I will have to vote Netaniahu or Lieberman in the next elections.

Unless Olmert realizes the true nature of the Hamas assholes sitting in the Paleo Government and delivers the next Nakba to the Gazzans he is gonna loose popular support and his voters will leak rightwards.
In my view this is indeed a cross-roads point in the history of the region. Unless we beging to hit them hard on a large scale in Gazza, Hamas will learn that terror pays and we will be swamped in kidnappings and boomers and kassam mass shelling of every reachable center in Israel.

Now is the time for pulling out the JDAMS and showing them what happens when you finally manage to step on our big toe !

Posted by Elder of Zion 2006-06-30 09:48|| 2006-06-30 09:48|| Front Page Top

#12 Good cop / bad cop routine? Perhaps they need a pause for something -- we just don't know what.

Posted by Darrell 2006-06-30 10:09|| 2006-06-30 10:09|| Front Page Top

#13
Seems to me that two biggest problems in the world are Islam and Leftism/Leftists! Something should be done about that.

Why is it that Conservatives can't form a united front and begin the task of marginalizing Leftists at all levels of society? This is a mindset (Left) that should be attacked and vilified whenever and wherever it pokes its nasty little head up.

We could, with money and determination, push them out of the media, schools...etc. Once they lose those platforms they would wither and die. Seems to me they are barely hanging on as it is.

Islam too!

All that is needed to shatter Islam is to reject its legitimacy. Contrast and compare it with any other "legitimate" religion and its true nature stands naked for all to see. The non-Islamic world just has to say we no longer recognize you as a religion, and we remove all protections and privileges normally accorded a religion. Shut the Mosques (sp?), deport the "Holy Men" and show some resolve and the whole mess would implode under its own weight.

JMO

-M

Posted by Manolo 2006-06-30 10:16|| 2006-06-30 10:16|| Front Page Top

#14 Manolo
Some people inculding a lot of Rantburgers refuse to believe in "memes" and the power of "memes". Virtually everything that you know and use to operate in the world is a "meme". Some "memes" are good, some bad and some like viruses a dangerous disease. "leftism", "socialism", "islam", "maoism", "shinning path ism", "mugabe ism", "welfare parasiteism", "slavery" are some of the infinite disease memes.

Note how these memes tend to ignore "change" and are therefore anti-evolution. Now life implies evolution and change. Death implies "status quo" eventually resulting in devolution. So these disease memes are one with death.

Just like you have vaccinations against some disease and not others so the same case exists for memes. Also, some very bad ones are troubling to to find sucor for (Just like AIDS and Malaria) and some have resistance to their application (like the muslims refusing polio shots).

Not all bad memes are of the other and most individuals have lessor and greater bad memes too. (that desire to cut another off a stop light or but in line is a lessor bad meme.)

If you look at the different religions they claim one set of memes and actualize another. Some even get close to meme concepts.

If you look at the basic "love one another" premise of "christanity" that is a meme that contains subsets of infinte of memes. It seems to see a desired end point of memes swimming in a sea of loving caring memes.

Buddhism has its basic tenet of desiring nothingness and one-ness with the universe. That implies coping in a sea of memes and being the sea.

Juddism and Hinduism and Islam and ...
don't really look at the world in a way that accepts the concept of memes.

The world is more black and white for Islam. If memes are acknowledged in Islam its on a one to one basis (like divorce your wife by saying 5 times I divorce you) This is a "incantation" meme. Right out of a magicians book of spells. In point of fact lots of Islam's memes see to be "magic incantations". Perhaps its why they can exist in the sea of modern mimes. The "meme" that enables a CPU to work is not "magic" one but rather one from the realm of "provable math and science" memes.

Back to the articles point, Israel was actualize under the socialist myth meme of fighting kibbutz social units crafting a country. They are evolving into a more "realist" meme set but as with all mighty "socialist memes" this one needs a might effort by the memes around it to stomp out the disease. Antibodies need to be built up, and white blood cells activated.

I could go on forever but this is enough for now.

Posted by 3dc 2006-06-30 12:11|| 2006-06-30 12:11|| Front Page Top

#15 Perhaps its why they can exist in the sea of modern mimes.
Sorry - Major typo.

Perhaps its why they can't exist in the sea of modern memes dominated by the scientific meme.

Posted by 3dc 2006-06-30 13:11|| 2006-06-30 13:11|| Front Page Top

#16 I want to know more about this fighter pilot 'passing out ceremony.' Sounds like shots at the O club, but I could be wrong.

Posted by USN, ret. 2006-06-30 14:24|| 2006-06-30 14:24|| Front Page Top

#17 Israel has a history of strong Defense Ministers defying or manipulating weak Prime Ministers. Obvious case is at the time of the 1967 war, when Dayan was effectively making decisions with only limited reference to Levi Eshkol, the PM. OTOH while Olmert looks weak, Peretz is hardly in the position of a Dayan. OTOH if Peretz is holding back, its presumably to keep alive a negotiating strand with Egypt, where Shimon Peres (aslo in the govt) has personal contacts. Alternatively Peretz or Peres is in personal contact with Condi Rice, and is holding back out of deference to Washington.

Also possible - Olmert wants to hold back, cause there really is a negotatiating possibility via Egypt, but wants the Israeli public to blame Peretz, and is leaking appropriately to spread that.

Posted by liberalhawk 2006-06-30 15:38|| 2006-06-30 15:38|| Front Page Top

#18 Time is also on Israel's side in the sense that if nothing happens the effect of what they have done will start to be felt more and more painfully by the average Paleostinian. Part of why your average Ahkmed voted for Hamas was that they had done such a good job of providing services. Now the entire infrastructure is disolving and Hamas can't provide power, water or defense. They look like the useless punks they are.

The Paleostinians will not be exterminated nor the Palestinian Authority conquered, much as we might wish it. The goal here is only to gain the return of the kidnapped soldier and to teach the Paleos that they made a mistake voting for Hamas.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-06-30 16:22|| 2006-06-30 16:22|| Front Page Top

#19 More than that, Nimble Spemble, Olmert stated he wants the end of kassem rocket attacks from Gaza. Which is why Israel is bombing both ends of the Strip, not just where they think the young corporal was secreted.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-30 16:51|| 2006-06-30 16:51|| Front Page Top

#20 Looks like I was wrong. Israel is now threatening to assasinate Haniyah, Paleo PM. Good to see Olmert has stones.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-06-30 17:10|| 2006-06-30 17:10|| Front Page Top

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