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2006-10-15 India-Pakistan

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Posted by Fred 2006-10-15 00:00|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Ironically, Dr Ambedkar, who wrote the Indian constitution, was against any reservations/affirmative action programes for dalits or other low castes. He was finally persuaded but insisted that any affirmative action be temporary.

Sixty years later, with the affirmative action programme in place and governement jobs reserved for dalits, the system is more entrenced than ever.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 07:21|| 2006-10-15 07:21|| Front Page Top

#2 So much so that the late Indian president Naryayan, a dalit, used an affirmative action quota place for his son to enter university, despite his socioeconic status.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 07:36|| 2006-10-15 07:36|| Front Page Top

#3 Some of the most severe bigotry against dalits comes not from "high caste" hindus but from those just a few rungs above the dalits on the caste structure. It is these folk who have the most to lose from dalit empowerment.

Which explains why there are "muslim dalits" (even in Pakistan), "christian dalits, Sihk dalits" etc.
Most converts find they are still dicriminated against, within their new religious community.

There is now a legal campaign to have the Indian supreme court extend affirmative action to these "christian dalits". Some backers face genine discrimination, others just wanty a piece of a very lucrative pie.

Until there is greater urbanization in India, the problem of caste discrimination will not be solved. Those trapped by circumstances in the rural areas will face continued discrimination no matter what their religion.

You see this in Pakistan where low caste converts to islam (and many hindus have converted to islam in India as well) are still looked down upon by their muslim neighbors, especiallly in rural punjab.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 07:46|| 2006-10-15 07:46|| Front Page Top

#4 Some of those "low caste" muslims in Pakistan are fifth and sixth gneration converts.
An example is Muktaran Mai, who was raped along with her brother by higher caste muslim villagers.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 07:48|| 2006-10-15 07:48|| Front Page Top

#5 John, how can the castes be differentiated without a mark? By name?

Posted by Shipman 2006-10-15 10:26|| 2006-10-15 10:26|| Front Page Top

#6 Yes.
Surname will tell a lot.

In rural areas, it is simply common knowledge. Everybody in the village knows the caste of everyone else.

Only in urban settings will the anonymity of cities help. Many Indians say that everyone is equal in the mumbai trains and temples.

It doesn't help that the Indian affirmative action programme is so extensive.
It requires the bureaucracy to issue "caste certificates". As a result, children come to know the caste of their schoolfriends when they compete for places at high school and university and the children bring in the certificates to the school administration.

Caste is actually sustaining the practice of dowry, something given India's falling female birth rates, would disappear.
Low caste people are willig to pay higher dowries for their offspring to marry into a higher caste.

The opposite may be happening now with a caste certificate a gurantee of employment in the governement and now the private sector (including american multinationals) - there are reports of higher people bribing officials to obtain a caste certificate proving they are low caste.

The affirmative action is quite pervasive. Reservationa are now at 50 percent. Someone from a wealthy dalit family can use their certificate to obtain entry at university with low grades, gain a pass degree and then get a job before more qualified people. There is now a push to extend reservations in promotions so that dalits are guaranteed a percentage of higher level positions.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 10:42|| 2006-10-15 10:42|| Front Page Top

#7 And dalit political power is growing. Even the BJP courts their votes.
A couple of Indian states are now run by dalit (untouchable) chief ministers.
It is to the advantage of politicians and activists to highlight and entrench caste.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 10:45|| 2006-10-15 10:45|| Front Page Top

#8 "caste certificates". As a result, children come to know the caste of their schoolfriends when they compete for places at high school and university and the children bring in the certificates to the school administration

Damn, good to know there's a country as crazy as the US.

No, on second glance, that's crazier.

Posted by Shipman 2006-10-15 12:26|| 2006-10-15 12:26|| Front Page Top

#9 And many well meaning Indians really believe in these affirmative action quotas. They'll tell you that they are totally against the concept of caste.

But they support a system where two children, coming from the same neighborhood, going to the same school, attending the same classes are treated differently. One gets a passing grade with much lower marks because he has a caste certificate that says he is a dalit.

They say that this is supposed to redress historical injustice but the people benefitting from this are already relatively better off.

It is this "creamy layer" that gets the reserved jobs and the reserved school places.

Much of the claim of discrimination from dalits and muslims is actually due to poverty.
They'll say the government won't help them, but the problem isn't governement discrimination - it doesn't help anybody and if you're poor, you get treated the same shoddy way if you're the highest caste hindu or a muslim. Most Indian local governement systems are quite unresponsive.

Posted by john 2006-10-15 14:37|| 2006-10-15 14:37|| Front Page Top

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