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2007-05-17 Iraq

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Posted by Bobby 2007-05-17 05:56|| || Front Page|| [5 views ] Top

#1 "they launch from populated areas, around civilians"

Get a message to these civilians - if you see somebody setting up a mortar in your yard, consider it the bull's eye on the target, and get away fast. Counter-battery fire, if reasonably accurate, should not hit any INNOCENT civilians, only complicit ones (or maybe stupid ones, but I repeat myself.)

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2007-05-17 07:21|| 2007-05-17 07:21|| Front Page Top

#2 Not even the London or Madrid subway is safe! And a walk in Detroit, Miami, South Central, etc isn't guaranteed either.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-05-17 07:37|| 2007-05-17 07:37|| Front Page Top

#3 Still ... In your example, the public has a reasonable expectation of safety. Iraq isn't there yet.

Posted by doc 2007-05-17 08:34|| 2007-05-17 08:34|| Front Page Top

#4 I thought we were just about ready to field an automatic counter battery system? What ever happened to that?

Posted by bigjim-ky 2007-05-17 09:29|| 2007-05-17 09:29|| Front Page Top

#5
"When they launch these type of weapons systems, they launch from populated areas, around civilians and in built-up areas," Brig. Gen. Perry Wiggins, deputy director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Pentagon press briefing.

Yes, you know and recognize it. The muzzies play this same game wherever they are. They don't care about their own populations. Why do we ? This is the exact routine conducted by Paleos against Israel. One thing about muzzies, if something works, they keep repeating it. Car bombs, boomers, burka escape routines, and using civilian cover for attacks. If nothing is done to counter these actions, anarchy reigns. If the military doesn't have the stomach to retaliate, no matter the "collateral" damage, then your mission is over. "Collateral" damage is an integral part of the war effort to weaken the enemy. People who aid and abett these attacks are just as liable as those who fire the ordnance. Leaders like Churhill recognized the necessity during WWII. Otherwise, the Allies could not have hoped to win.

Posted by Woozle Elmeter2970 2007-05-17 09:45|| 2007-05-17 09:45|| Front Page Top

#6 One definition of war from the web is: "War is a state of widespread conflict between states, organisations, or relatively large groups of people, which is characterised by the use of violent, physical force between combatants or upon civilians."

During WW II, the phrase "Total War" was extant. Churchill fire- bombed Dresden in retaliation for German bombings in England. Dresden was which was largely a civilian target with little military value. There wasn't so much concern for collateral damage then as there is today. Nice isn't a word that comes to mind to describe warfare.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-17 10:23|| 2007-05-17 10:23|| Front Page Top

#7 bigjim, a friend told me over a month ago that he'd heard outgoing counter-battery after at least one attack - though I wonder where that weaponry was based, as I was never aware of any arty set up in the IZ.

More than 3-6 mortars in one barrage is unusual by the standards of '05-'06, but then again also is the mortars actually detonating, which they increasingly did not back then.

Gonna call some friends and see if things have really changed that much.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-05-17 11:53|| 2007-05-17 11:53|| Front Page Top

#8 Verlaine, old mortars and shells from the Saddam era may not have been effective. Brand-shiney-new mortars from Iran probably are. If they're manned by non-uniformed IRGC troops, they're probably pretty accurate. It's time to nuke the he$$ out of Iran, from north to south, east to west, and see what oozes out of the fallout zones.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-05-17 15:40|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-05-17 15:40|| Front Page Top

#9 An Iraqi security officer said one of the dead was a driver for the staff of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, whose office is in the Green Zone.

In March, a rocket exploded near al-Maliki's office

Popular guy. He really needs to get out and mingle with the public more. Maybe one of his adoring throng might do us a favor and off this wannabe warlord of a turd.

If the military doesn't have the stomach to retaliate, no matter the "collateral" damage, then your mission is over. "Collateral" damage is an integral part of the war effort to weaken the enemy. People who aid and abett these attacks are just as liable as those who fire the ordnance.

That last sentence should also include those who bear silent witness to such terrorist activity as well. What is it that prevents so many good Iraqi citizens from using their cell phones to report the originating locations of these mortar and rocket attacks? Even a license plate number would be of great use. Somebody is seeing something and remaining silent. While the surge may have inspired a further degree of public cooperation, such outside help is nowhere near it where must be for us to rely upon it in place of other "disincentives".

Precise counterbattery and even less precise counterbattery needs to be used against incoming fire of this sort. Collateral civilian losses must eventually inspire the Iraqis to take a more active role in monitoring and reporting terrorist activity. Those who fail to do so will more frequently perish as a result of their failure and thereby serve as encourager pour les autres.

This will prove to be a self-remedying issue as neighborhoods that allow terrorists to operate with impunity will slowly be leveled by return fire whereas those who participate in thwarting terrorist attacks will see less incoming retaliation. Call it behavioral modification at its finest.

This is just one example of what I was referring to in my comments about how our military's dialogue needs to more closely match accepted Islamic vocabulary. The terrorists and, to a lesser extent, even the Iraqi citizens do not exhibit sufficient concern regarding collateral civilian casualties. So long as that remains the case, then we really need to disregard them to a similar extent.

We can no longer afford to fool ourselves with any Multicultural notions about winning "hearts and minds" in the MME (Muslim Middle East). If we have the least intent of impressing upon Iraq's population the requirement that they abandon all support for terrorism and its practicioners, then there must be a price tag attached for not doing so.

We've tried the carrot for some time now with relatively little success. Koranic doctrine does not prescribe any carrots for non-Muslims. It's not in their vocabulary and they view those Infidels who extend such toothsome root vegetables as fools or worse. The Koran gives a far more prominent and starring role to the stick. Our military possess these in abundance and particularly large specimens abound in our inventory, many of them under the specific category of "ugly". These non-carrot-like objects are easily recognized by the vast majority of Muslims and carry a message that transcends all languages and local dialects.

It's long past tea to begin making sure that message is gotten through loud and clear, both to Iraq's citizenry and every Islamic tyranny and Muslim within hearing distance.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-17 15:52|| 2007-05-17 15:52|| Front Page Top

#10 If neighborhoods are repeatedly used for attacks of any flavor, electric availability should be reduced, and generators confiscated. Let's put global warming to work for us.
WANT JUICE ? GIVE TIPS !

Posted by wxjames 2007-05-17 17:56|| 2007-05-17 17:56|| Front Page Top

#11 Mortars can be launched from considerable distances. That is one reason why I support the base-in-the-desert option. That would allow the ethnic consolidation that Coalition troops can't prevent, while allowing moderates to direct air and artillery strikes on terrorist areas. Close quarter patrols are ineffective. They set troops up for turkey shoots, and invigorate terrorist morale. You have seen jihadi videos of Hummers being hit by IEDs; those are sold openly in Iraq markets. Are our tactics, although designed in good faith, allowing a terrorist hero cult to flourish in Iraq? I think so. Frankly, we help the Iraqi people by helping ourselves.

Posted by Sneaze 2007-05-17 20:09|| 2007-05-17 20:09|| Front Page Top

#12 It's late, so I don't know if anyone will see this.

Dresden was a legitimate military target, not so much for what was there (though it did make the Panzerfausts that killed a lot of Allied tanks), but what went through it. It was the major rail hub for the German souteastern army, fighting in Hungary and Bohemia.

Posted by Jackal">Jackal 2007-05-17 22:26|| http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2007-05-17 22:26|| Front Page Top

#13 Dresden also served the same purpose as Hiroshima. Both were cities of exceeding beauty whose eventual destruction was reserved as a demoralizing blow against the enemy. Dresden was a summertime residence for the Princes of Saxony. If any of you saw the touring museum exhibit "The Splendours of Dresden", you will have an idea of the tremendous concentration of wealth and artistry that was accumulated within that one city. Among those treasures was the "Rose Diamond Garniture", an assemblage of medals, pistols, sworgs, flintlock blunderbusses all encrusted with encrustations (no, I'm not being redundant) of rose and pink diamonds by the thousands. The overall exhibit was simply jaw-dropping, much akin to the King Tut show. The Nazis were sufficiently evil whereby it was deemed necessary to demonstrate just how unacceptable their murderous ideology was to the outside world. Destroying one of its most precious repositories of national patrimony was a way of making that clear. Soon, we will need to begin considering similar strikes against the Islamic world in preparation for showing them how just how displeasing their own murderous ideology is as well.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-05-17 23:10|| 2007-05-17 23:10|| Front Page Top

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