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2007-09-22 Europe

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Posted by Steve White 2007-09-22 00:00|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 While laudable in no uncertain terms, Benedict's pronouncement is long overdue.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-09-22 01:08|| 2007-09-22 01:08|| Front Page Top

#2 "He also defended the rights of Muslims to convert to Christianity, an act which warrants the death penalty in many Islamic countries."

It sure is easier than arguing about religion all the time.

Posted by newc">newc 2007-09-22 01:19|| 2007-09-22 01:19|| Front Page Top

#3 Hey- ease up on the lateness. The chrch is noted for taking it's time. Only 400 years to admit that Galleleo(sp?) had a point. ~1000 years to resolve a political spat with the Orthodox. Whats a few centuries, when you have eternal rammifications to worry about.

At least pope benny is willing to call a spade a spade.

Any bets on how long untill the next muzzy assassanation attempt?

Posted by N guard 2007-09-22 06:28|| 2007-09-22 06:28|| Front Page Top

#4 The complete address is linked below:
Link

Posted by mrp 2007-09-22 08:23|| 2007-09-22 08:23|| Front Page Top

#5 Actually, he has been talking in this direction since he becaem Pope. Its taken him this long to beat down the liberals in the Vatican's version of the State Department.

I guess all State Departments are filled with the same types of morons.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-09-22 09:47|| 2007-09-22 09:47|| Front Page Top

#6 Crusade, please.

Posted by Excalibur 2007-09-22 10:31|| 2007-09-22 10:31|| Front Page Top

#7 Whats a few centuries, when you have eternal rammifications to worry about.

At few other times in history has inaction carried such a high price tag. Should the Vatican maintain this sort of glacial pace it will likely disappear in an Iranian nuclear fireball. The Catholic Church and Christians in general had better ally themselves with this world's other peaceful religions in order to present a united front against Islam. A Vatican sponsored drive to provide financial and moral support for Thailand's beleaguered Buddhists would be a fine starting place for creating this sort of inter-faith unity.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-09-22 13:23|| 2007-09-22 13:23|| Front Page Top

#8 Islam isn't a religion, it's a death cult. It deserves the fate of all cults - extinction.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-09-22 16:15|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-09-22 16:15|| Front Page Top

#9 During the time it took to make this speech, another 2306 Allanists "migrated" to Europe.

Posted by Slavilet Speaking for Boskone6954 2007-09-22 16:31|| 2007-09-22 16:31|| Front Page Top

#10 "Before then, there were about 1.2million Christians in the country. But the number has dropped to below 600,000."
So 600,000 Christians have disappeared in Iraq since 2003? Benedict must get his statistics from The Lancet or Senator Harry Reid.

Posted by Darrell 2007-09-22 16:34|| 2007-09-22 16:34|| Front Page Top

#11 So 600,000 Christians have disappeared in Iraq since 2003? Benedict must get his statistics from The Lancet or Senator Harry Reid.

That number appears to be about right. Most of the 600,000 left for Syria, Iran, and other places for safety. Various militias have been blowing up churches, kidnapping/killing priests, and kidnapping Christians for cash.

Posted by mrp 2007-09-22 17:02|| 2007-09-22 17:02|| Front Page Top

#12 What makes that number appear to be about right? If I told you it was 300,000, would that number appear to be about right too? Do you have a source?

Posted by Darrell 2007-09-22 17:11|| 2007-09-22 17:11|| Front Page Top

#13 Karnac.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2007-09-22 17:13|| 2007-09-22 17:13|| Front Page Top

#14 Less than one year ago:
"Estimates of the resulting Christian exodus vary from the tens of thousands to more than 100,000, with most heading for Syria, Jordan and Turkey."
[NYT: "Iraqs Christians Flee as Extremist Threat Worsens"; October 16, 2006.]

Posted by Darrell 2007-09-22 17:23|| 2007-09-22 17:23|| Front Page Top

#15 The envelope, please ...

Christians Fleeing Violence in Iraq

Excerpt:

As many as 50 percent of Iraq's Christians may already have left the country, according to a report issued Wednesday by the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a federal monitoring and advisory group in Washington D.C.

"These groups face widespread violence from Sunni insurgents and foreign jihadis, and they also suffer pervasive discrimination and marginalization at the hands of the national government, regional governments, and para-state militias," said the report.

Islamic extremists have also targeted liquor stores, hair salons and other Christian-owned businesses, saying they violate Islam, the report said.

"This is not the culture of Iraqis or the nature of Iraqis. We have lived during centuries together in a respectful attitude and friendship," said Luwis Zarco, the Catholic archbishop of Kirkuk.

In much of the Middle East, Christians are a largely tolerated minority that have achieved a measure of business and professional success, but they are sometimes viewed with suspicion by their Muslim neighbors.

In Saddam-era Iraq, the country's 800,000 Christians many of them Chaldean-Assyrians and Armenians, with small numbers of Roman Catholics were generally left alone. Many, such as Saddam Hussein's foreign minister and deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz, reached the highest levels of power.

And from Frontpage:

The Death of Iraq's Christians

Iraqi Christians have responded in the only way possible: running away. Roughly half of the pre-war Christian community, possibly 750,000 people, is thought to have fled Iraq.

That Iraqi Christians have fared poorly in the midst of Muslim radicalism, whether Shia or Sunni, comes as no surprise.Christians possess no military forces, no militias organized for their defense. Nor are their enclaves large enough to offer protection.

Less expected was Kurdistan's mistreatment of the Assyrians. Indeed, writes BetBasoo, the "systematic campaign of persecution ... began in the Kurdish regions of north Iraq shortly after the first Gulf war and spread to Baghdad and Basra after the liberation of Iraq in April of 2003. In the last three months it has intensified and is now openly declared in some areas of Iraq."

Unfortunately, there is little hope that the violence will abate. To the contrary, contends BetBasoo, "since Assyrians are not capable of defending themselves and are targeted as a class because of their distinct identity, what is now unfolding in Iraq can be termed an incipient genocide."

Now, I've read from these sources (and others) that up to 50% of the Christian community had been driven out of Iraq. So, I saw your 1.2 million and figured that 50% was about, oh, say, 600,000.

Do you need more references, or will that do?

Posted by karnac 2007-09-22 17:28|| 2007-09-22 17:28|| Front Page Top

#16 "As many as 50 percent of Iraq's Christians may already have left" [as many as?] [may?]

"possibly 750,000 people, is thought to have fled" [possibly?] [thought to?] [today's article says 600,000]

"In Saddam-era Iraq, the country's 800,000 Christians" [800,000 or 1.2 million?]

Obviously nobody really knows.

Posted by Darrell 2007-09-22 17:57|| 2007-09-22 17:57|| Front Page Top

#17 Firm population numbers in a chaotic country, formerly ruled for 30 years by a ruthless dictatorship, are hard to come by.

From the CIA World Factbook:

Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%

I'm not sure where the Daily Mail got its 1.2 million Christians figure, the sources I've read fall between 700,000 and 850,000. In any case, within the last year, Iraq's Christian communities have been pummeled, and I think a 50% evacuation rate is not an unreasonable estimate.

Posted by mrp 2007-09-22 18:50|| 2007-09-22 18:50|| Front Page Top

#18 Darrell, a friend of mine (not a close friend, but someone I've known for about 5 years) has been active and respected in international banking for many years, primarily in the middle east. He was brought in by the CPA to advise on the setup of Iraq's new currency, banking laws etc. Guy's in his mid 70s & went through a 2 week refresher course on things like shooting an M-16 ... shared a trailer in the Green Zone from 2004 through the elections. Still spends about 1/4 of his time in Amman, Baghdad etc. while his wife tries not to worry until his flight gets back each trip.

So ... someone who is a closeup observer and knows the people & culture. He used to worship in one or another of the Iraqi churches when there. He can't find one, even quasi-underground, in Baghdad now (and he knows the community, if they were there he'd hear about if even if they asked him to keep away for security reasons).

It's been very very bad for Christians there since the Sunnis triggered the sectarian violence with the shrine bombings. Very few still alive and in the country, so far as he can tell.

Posted by lotp 2007-09-22 20:04|| 2007-09-22 20:04|| Front Page Top

#19 Not disputing that, lotp, but 600,000 is one heck of a lot of dead bodies and refugees. Where are the living now? Camps in Syria? I don't see Syria tolerating that. It just doesn't seem to add up.

Posted by Darrell 2007-09-22 20:13|| 2007-09-22 20:13|| Front Page Top

#20 Some have been filtering up through South America trying to cross our southern border.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-09-22 21:09|| 2007-09-22 21:09|| Front Page Top

#21 a LOT of Chaldeans here in San Diego County - quite the family network. They show up requesting asylum, and have a good local rep of working hard and causing no problems

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2007-09-22 21:19|| 2007-09-22 21:19|| Front Page Top

#22 Muslims demand special treatment here, while they abuse minority religions in their own countries. Why do our leaders buy their snakeoil

Posted by McZoid 2007-09-22 23:26|| 2007-09-22 23:26|| Front Page Top

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