Article

2008-08-14 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

Georgians trust in God: in Saakashvili, not so much

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Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 Just another western educated, third world, tinpot, crooked (would be) authocrat.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-08-14 02:40|| 2008-08-14 02:40|| Front Page Top

#2 Hmmm...I thought he was a great fighter for freedom, for whom people would give their lives. Maybe Russians and Georgians can agree on something.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-14 02:56|| 2008-08-14 02:56|| Front Page Top

#3 Moscow not only funded and probably armed the rebels in both Abkhazia and South Ossetia; it also persuaded many of the people there to take up Russian passports by luring them with the promise of pensions. This gave the Kremlin the disingenuous pretext of defending Russian "citizens" to justify military intervention in Georgia.

Thats all that really needs to be said , apart from words like goading .

Russian scum

Posted by Mad Eye 2008-08-14 05:52|| 2008-08-14 05:52|| Front Page Top

#4 It is clear that the Georgian political leaders and troops did not heap themselves with glory here. They were fools to have embarked upon this path. Georgia's national existence now relies not on their own wisdom and courage, but on the kindness of strangers.

Russia completely dominates the conventional military situation now. Their uncharacteristic restraint in not occupying Georgia, like a latter day Hungary is probably only due to the desire to avoid another war of occupation, like a latter day Afghanistan. Hopefully, that fear leads to an agreement that leaves the Georgian people free to elect new leaders at the usual time and gets the Russians out of a quickly deepening quagmire.

Posted by rammer">rammer 2008-08-14 08:07|| 2008-08-14 08:07|| Front Page Top

#5 I doubt the Russians are game for an occupation. Their military thrust will achieve the political aims.

Saakashvili has been seen on TV looking up in abject terror at possible Russian planes. Quite a normal human reaction but not something people want to see in their wartime leaders.

Once the fighting ends and Euro peacekeepers man the buffer zone, the reality of their loss will hit the Georgians and they will kick him out

Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 08:18|| 2008-08-14 08:18|| Front Page Top

#7 Yet Saakashvili knew that, if he did not resolve the separatist problem, European members would continue to block Georgia's membership bid.

Odd - but this line is the answer. The separatist problem is solved, so does the EU support a membership bid? Watch German-Baltic diplomatic activity, which is where the decision will be played out.

Posted by Halliburton - Asymmetrical Reply Division 2008-08-14 08:48|| 2008-08-14 08:48|| Front Page Top

#8 I see attention and concern in Saakashvili's face, but not abject terror. He stands straight, not cowering away from the attack. Perhaps he should have combed his hair before the picture was taken?

As for Georgian recklessness behind the wheel, how does it compare to Parisians, or the foreigners in Brussels -- I was told upon moving there to expect one car destroyed per year, and so it came to pass... on the day before I was to turn it in for resale as the final step before moving back to the States.

Besides, who trusts politicians, or even statesmen, to be more trustworthy than God?

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-14 09:14|| 2008-08-14 09:14|| Front Page Top

#9 It looks worse on the TV. His political opponents will use it to discredit him.

From the Times of London

As President Saakashvili looked up in terror at the Russian helicopter roaring over the besieged town of Gori, with his troops in retreat and Western allies offering no more than words against Moscow, the catastrophic consequences of his decision to take military action in South Ossetia last week could not have been clearer.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 09:16|| 2008-08-14 09:16|| Front Page Top

#10

Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 09:18|| 2008-08-14 09:18|| Front Page Top

#11

It looks worse on the TV. His political opponents will use it to discredit him.

So what's your excuse?

Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford 2008-08-14 09:37|| 2008-08-14 09:37|| Front Page Top

#12 The Russians followed the same playbook used by the Nazis in the months preceding the outbreak of war in 1939. For Poland, it was months of violent provocation over the Danzig Question - ethnic German riots in the city and surrounding countryside, murders, beatings, and relentless propaganda vilifying the Poles (much of the same was done in the Sudetenland and Austria). The Poles refused to be provoked because they already had a solemn defense pact with the British and the French. The Germans, as everyone knows, solved that problem with a secret agreement with Russia to divide Poland between them. Stalin probably had a pretext for attacking Poland, too, but it had nothing to do with Danzig.

"John Frum", this is the second day (at least) you've posted those pictures of Saakashvili on this site, stating that his face looked up at the sky in "terror".

Well, screw you, pal. For a political leader clearly the target for removal by the Russian military, a military with overwhelming air superiority over Saakashvili's country, the man shows enormous courage for placing himself within reach of Russian attack helicopters and attack aircraft.

George Bush was ridiculed by the Left in this country when he was rushed into AF-1 for parts (at the time) unknown. Dick Cheney spent several days in an "undisclosed location".

In an age when anyone in the street can be an enemy agent with a direct sat link to a forward air controller, it takes something special for a commander in chief during wartime to stroll about his war-torn country in broad daylight.

Posted by mrp 2008-08-14 10:01|| 2008-08-14 10:01|| Front Page Top

#13 His handlers should have had better judgment.
Saakashvili should have shown better judgment.

Bernard Kouchner was also there in Gori but there are no videos of the French FM on the ground being covered with flak jackets.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 10:33|| 2008-08-14 10:33|| Front Page Top

#14 Let's put it this way. Russia was able to attack so quickly because they were ready to attack. It was just a matter of time. From a Georgian point of view at least they chose the time and thus had the military mobilized rather than destroyed in place.

I don't think Saakashvili is so foolish. I think he had a bad hand and made the most of it.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-14 10:34|| 2008-08-14 10:34|| Front Page Top

#15 Yet Saakashvili knew that, if he did not resolve the separatist problem, European members would continue to block Georgia's membership bid.

This is an interesting question, will it change the resolve of NATO or turn them off to Georgia for being such a pain in the ass? I don't think he intended it to get this out of hand though.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-14 11:16|| 2008-08-14 11:16|| Front Page Top

#16 From the NY Times article

Ungala Akhalshenishvili, 23, who works at a cellphone company in Tbilisi, said her opinion of him had fallen over the course of the crisis. The president seemed to be playing the part of a man eager to fight, only to need a rescue from more muscular friends.

He has always tried to put a good face on what has happened, she said. But yesterday when I saw him he looked frightened and he seemed like he was waiting for France to come in and solve his problems.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-14 12:00|| 2008-08-14 12:00|| Front Page Top

#17 If photography was around I wonder what the faces of Samuel Adams and John Hancock would look like at o'dark 30 in the morning tumbling out of the Hancock-Clarke house in their night shirts running away from the British coming up the road from Boston.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-08-14 12:24|| 2008-08-14 12:24|| Front Page Top

#18 JF: Saakashvili has been seen on TV looking up in abject terror at possible Russian planes.

I see the shot but can't really describe it as abject terror. I can see why Russian propagandists (and their apologists) would describe it as such, but then again, these are the people who claim the CIA invented AIDS to kill black people.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-14 16:19|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-14 16:19|| Front Page Top

#19 mrp: In an age when anyone in the street can be an enemy agent with a direct sat link to a forward air controller, it takes something special for a commander in chief during wartime to stroll about his war-torn country in broad daylight.

Especially if the adversary country has air dominance. The reality is that he was in real danger of being taken out with a smart bomb. The French Foreign Minister was safe, since killing him would have meant a state of war between France and Russia.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-14 16:25|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-14 16:25|| Front Page Top

#20 Actually he doesn't look terrified to me, more annoyed that some idiot photographer was taking the opportunity to take a photo while he was being crushed by his pig-pile of bodyguards.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-14 17:19|| 2008-08-14 17:19|| Front Page Top

#21 whats with that other dude whos smiling? It kinda makes it hard to interpret the pic as running from an attack.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-14 17:20|| 2008-08-14 17:20|| Front Page Top

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