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2008-08-16 Science & Technology

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Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-08-16 08:54|| || Front Page|| [6 views ] Top

#1 Wow, amazing how clearly the constituent threads of authoritarian groupthink appear when seen in others. My country's leadership is always right regardless of the consequences of its actions; the media are hopelessly biased against us - they're just reporting sensationalist bad news. I'm sure NONE of the people in HERE think like that...LOL. You guys are too much, really....

Posted by Paganus 2008-08-16 13:58|| 2008-08-16 13:58|| Front Page Top

#2 It's a sad story, actually.

We used to have more diversity of thought here. But then the fascist BusHitler regime started having commenters beaten up and hauled away to secret prisons.

As you can imagine, they were treated horribly there. Those who resisted were forced to listen to old Gore and Kerry campaign speeches until their minds turned to mush.

The rest of us huddle around our keyboards, almost too frightened to think Englishtened Thoughts. No doubt the Dems will soon reassert 'fairness doctrine' over all electronic communications and we will emerrge into the light of politically correct opinion once again.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 14:30|| 2008-08-16 14:30|| Front Page Top

#3 You know, paganus, even if for you, the obligatory and self-obvious moral equivalency boils it down to a reciprocal case of "us vs them", I'm quite ok with that, in last analysis... in fact, I find it a very healthy mental atitude, much more so than the so-called culture of critique of "progressives". I'd wish the West be made of bigots and nationalist lemmings who see in "Us vs Them", we wouldn't be much different from the vast majority of the world's population, not at all, and we'd be on a much surer foot to deal with the lot of them, on their terms. Unfortunately, we're progressive and diverse. Oh, well, at least, I can be a bigot myself, it's a start, and be proud of it.

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-08-16 14:31|| 2008-08-16 14:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Welcome to Rantburg Paganus!

Posted by Halliburton - Blogosphere Welcoming Committee 2008-08-16 15:37|| 2008-08-16 15:37|| Front Page Top

#5 Paganus: as obnoxious as they sometimes behave, there is a substantial value in the comments of those who reflect on what other countries think, even when the pro-nationals see those ideas as gloriously wrong-headed. Which they often are.

For example, the European media has mercilessly battered the US over the invasion of Iraq, joined in the chorus by our own internal critics. And while it is terribly annoying and unpatriotic, it does have a great value in introspection.

Now Americans can't hold a candle to Russians when it comes to full blown introspection. I've read some of the better Russian novels, where Dmitri remembers Ilyana, when she was thinking of Ivan, who was lost in his own reveries of his troubled youth. Recursive is an understatement.

But that is where the more sensible outside opinions are needed right now in the Russian debate. To question the axioms: Was Russia right in doing what it did? Was there a better way? Was there a non-military way? What is the price Russia must now pay?

The actual costs of this fight are going to be far greater than current expenses. The US is well aware of the dramatic hidden costs of our military activities. How diplomacy takes a long time to recover, as well as the free flow of trade. Partnerships are reconsidered, alliances and animosities re-examined.

Within the nation, political balances of power shift as well, and with effects that can last for years.

Russia will now need to strengthen its military, for several reasons. To replace expended supplies, to repair equipment, to upgrade what didn't work, to reconsider tactics, and lots of personnel actions. Military contracts abroad will have many ups and down, running into the billions of dollars.

All of this will take years to figure out, and the critics have the value of pointing it out sooner instead of later. They remain pests, but slightly useful pests.

Posted by Anonymoose 2008-08-16 16:30|| 2008-08-16 16:30|| Front Page Top

#6 You're quite right, lotp. Why, there was a time when I independently always voted for liberal Democratic candidates, whereas now I dare only vote for warmongering Republicans. I can only cry (very, very quietly, of course, lest I be heard by informers) to the heavens, "Whence balance? Whence fairness? Whence the threatened wolves of yesteryear?"

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2008-08-16 16:32|| 2008-08-16 16:32|| Front Page Top

#7 I nominate lotp for Snark o' the Day!

Posted by badanov 2008-08-16 16:40|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org] 2008-08-16 16:40|| Front Page Top

#8 Paganus -

From Wikipedia:
Tu quoque is a Latin term used to mean an accusation of hypocrisy. The argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the opposite party itself, rather than its positions.

Any criticisms or challenges you'd like to make towards any positions expressed here are always welcome, though. But it is more difficult to debate a position than it is to be sarcastic or dismissive towards those who hold one different than yours.

Not that we're always above a little sarcasm or dismissiveness around here ;-P

Posted by ryuge 2008-08-16 16:50|| 2008-08-16 16:50|| Front Page Top

#9 Speaking of the Olympics what about that Atlanta to the Sea stuff? In Gawds good time we will smite back and the so called "Army" of the Ohio will be driven back into the heck home that gave them birth. And that goes triple for running dawg Sherman and his lackey ole Pappy Thomas.

/CSA bloggers striken back now

Posted by .5MT 2008-08-16 17:00|| www.cybernations.net]">[www.cybernations.net] 2008-08-16 17:00|| Front Page Top

#10 A truly democratic free press, as exhibited by postings on Youtube and other Net sites provide accountability in areas where everything has been secretive and controlled for sometime. Getting at the truth and choosing sides is especially difficult when no one is in the right. Trusting the average citizen with a cell phone camera to blog the word out is a credit to the Russians. Putting Cold War stereotypes aside is difficult for many of us, but I also know how often the media is presenting a biased view to the world and the damage it can cause. AP accounts I've read claim the Georgians fired upon journalists trying to ascertain Russian claims of a couple thousand deaths of their passport holders, of "genocide" prompting the invasion and placement of "peacekeepers". Historically, Georgia was home to White Russians, tsarist loyalists, royalists, and anti-Soviet. They are also mostly Orthodox Christians, with a historic rivalry with Roman Cathoicism, and the papal opposition to Communism so well-documented, it is the official excuse for backing the Nazi's over the Soviets. The Cross of St. George was carried by knights eventually ex-communicated by the Vatican and cultural/factional rivalry is historic and recorded for centuries back to the even the time of the Hittites, Medes, Scythians, when even the first Christians were warned of the bloodthirsty inhabitants of the Aryan Caucusus Mountains. Russia has suffered from some horrific Muslim terrorist attacks, such as the Beslan school massacre, and has little sympathy with these southern neighbors that tolerate Islam. Although allied with the US and hosting US trainers, Georgians have also been accused of hiding Chechen rebels, who we know were allied with both Islamists and organized crime moving weapons, drugs, and anything else for a price through this strategic region. Russians claim self-defense, and Georgians claim their sovereign rights. Freedom has been redefined as an absence of laws, with democracy and capitalism synonymous with the black market. Georgian counterfeiters produce quality bills that flood the market with both US currency and the Euro. The Tranzis have this well planned, with the European Union negotiating rather than NATO dealing with it as a security threat to the pipelines that fuel Europe. Obamamessiah to the rescue. Russia also depends on the European markets, and wants the world to know they are not dead on the world stage. This move was carefully orchestrated, maybe even deliberately provoked while both Putin and Bush were away at the Olympics. The push for stronger sanctions to any any who deal with Iran, as Russia does, could come back to hamstring the US in our own diplomatic web. The space shuttle is about to be obsolete, another one not built, as the Orion will finish the mission planned. Our space program, of which getting to the moon and protection of eyes in the skies is a vital mission yet to be accomplished, will be at Russia's technological mercy and necessary funding banned by diplomats. We need Russia, especially with negotiations with Iran (they delayed deliveries)yet are in no position to do anything, putting us over the barrel again. The same pro-UN advisors that gave us the mess in the Balkans in the 90's by choosing the wrong side seem to be calling the shots once again. Blind support of Georgians that may be facilitating the terrorists with WMD's or the drug money to pay for them with taxpayer dollars when the budget and economy are stretched. I just have the awful feeling that there are no good guys to support anymore, at least without a shadow of doubt. Obscenely rich self-absorbed Russians could redeem themselves and be digital heroes that save the world by holding their leaders accountable, all with the click of a mouse.

Posted by Danielle 2008-08-16 17:04|| 2008-08-16 17:04|| Front Page Top

#11 So, it was the Georgians who provoked the attack....odd, I never heard a peep, Second, while the Russians attempted to keep the peace, the evil Georgians attacked even the peacekeepers....again, I had no idea. However, someone high up in Russia knew because it takes a lot of planning, sneeking, and coordination to launch a massive attack as Russia has. And, viola, now we all hear about it.
Maybe if the earlier assertions were true it would have helped if we were informed. But we weren't, so we suppose those assertions are not true.
Putin's way, when the timing is right for attack, you attack. Then make up the causes and justifications later.

Posted by wxjames 2008-08-16 17:05|| 2008-08-16 17:05|| Front Page Top

#12 You never heard about Georgia attacking South Ossetia with massive shellings and moving in tanks on August 8th?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 17:07|| 2008-08-16 17:07|| Front Page Top

#13 I noted a posted comment on Cubs.com, of all places, no doubt googled by a 'doktordude' who said "Too bad CNN doesn't hire people
with intelligence and knowledge, then you culturally challenged Americans might actually
be respected... alas..." Sounds like a ruskie bear who's a cub fan?...should be a Reds fan.

Posted by Muggsy Glink 2008-08-16 17:12|| 2008-08-16 17:12|| Front Page Top

#14 I also heard about the Russian/Ossetian irregulars who shelled into Georgia for months with tacit Russian approval and no interference from the Russian 'peacekeepers'.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 17:12|| 2008-08-16 17:12|| Front Page Top

#15 All I saw was a bunch of blown up apartment building in S.Ossetia and Georgia. The don't like apartments I guess, pisses them off just looking at them.

Seriously though Paganus, you'll see articles from Asia Times, Pak Daily, Adrokonos, et al here. Make what you will of the content. But Pravda don't cut it as a single source for an argument.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-16 17:15|| 2008-08-16 17:15|| Front Page Top

#16 If the Serbian army moved into Kosovo, heavily shelling Pristina in the middle of the night, occupying it, killing scores of civilians and a dozen US troops what would happen?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 17:20|| 2008-08-16 17:20|| Front Page Top

#17 Too bad the Russian bloggers don't contemplate why the Russian military had 4,000 troops standing ready on ships plus equipment lined up and ready to enter Georgia by railway. Not exactly an impulsive move to protect ethnic Russians from a sudden surge of Georgian abuse.

The Cold War continues. We need a renewed arms race to break these thugs and we need to appropriately arm their neighbors.

Posted by Darrell 2008-08-16 17:48|| 2008-08-16 17:48|| Front Page Top

#18 When SFOR (NATO peacekeeping force) sponsors months of Kosovo sniping and artillery attacks into Serbia, as NATO prepositions tanks on bases, trains, and ships to invade Serbia within hours of the start of fighting, then we can talk. Until then the only "genocide" and ethnic cleansing have been by Russian sponsored lackeys, both now and throughout the 1990s.

Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia
The ethnic cleansing and massacres of Georgians has been officially recognized by the OSCE conventions in 1994, 1996 and again in 1997 during the Budapest, Lisbon and Istanbul summits and condemned the perpetrators of war crimes committed during the conflict.[18] On May 15 2008, UN General Assembly adopted a resolution (GA/10708) which acknowledges the ethnic cleansing campaign which have been described by OSCE conventions, and strongly emphasizes the return of all Georgian Internally displaced persons (IDPs) back to Abkhazia, protection of their property rights and full restoration of the pre-war population.[19]

Signs of Ethnic Attacks in Georgia Conflict
As the conflict between Russia and Georgia enters its second week, there is growing evidence of looting and ethnic cleansing in a number of villages throughout the area of conflict.

The attacks some witnessed by reporters or documented by a human rights group include stealing, the burning of villages and possibly even killings. Some are ethnically motivated, while at least some of the looting appears to be the work of profiteers in areas from which the authorities have fled.

The identities of the attackers vary, but a pattern of violence by ethnic Ossetians against ethnic Georgians is emerging and has been confirmed by some Russian authorities. Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves, said Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolaevich Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, occupied by the Russians.

A lieutenant from an armored transport division that was previously in Chechnya said: We have to be honest. The Ossetians are marauding.

But then this all a drop in the bucket compared to the 30 million of their own citizens the Soviets murdered and the millions more ethnically cleansed and exile to to the armpits of the USSR by organization that Putin so loves.

The Russians may think they have won an easy victory. The reality is that the easy money that the Russians have made selling fuel and metals will end. Sorry Yuri, but the economic growth that comes from integration with the west that Russians have enjoyed the last few years are will end as the west turns to alternative
sources of supply. Russia can go back to the barbaric master/serf society it never left behind. Chances are Yuri's daughter, if lucky, will grow up to be working as a cleaning lady in Tiblisi.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 17:52|| 2008-08-16 17:52|| Front Page Top

#19 Apples and oranges.

If Serbia attacked Kosovo, regardless the fact that there were Serbian passport holders inside Kosovo "that must be protected", it would be an agression against a soverign country.

The S Ossetia is not an independnt country (not recognized as such by anone, including Russian Federation), legally a part of Georgia. The Georgian shelling, from the legal POV, can be assessed as a police action, yes over the top action, but not that dissimilar to Russian actions in Chechnya, which were far more damaging to civilians than in S Ossetia (47 dead / 278 injured according the chief of Tskhinvali hospital).

Posted by Spike Uniter 2008-08-16 18:01|| 2008-08-16 18:01|| Front Page Top

#20 What makes Kosovo a "sovereign" state? That 45 out of 191 states acknowledge it?

If Russia can find 41 states to acknowledge the independence of South Ossetia, does it become a sovereign state?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 18:45|| 2008-08-16 18:45|| Front Page Top

#21 If the Serbian army moved into Kosovo, heavily shelling Pristina in the middle of the night, occupying it, killing scores of civilians and a dozen US troops what would happen?

Before, or after the Serbs' program of ethnic cleansing?

Before would be farcial, since there weren't any US or Nato troops there.

After would be immaterial, since at that point there already was de facto combat.

Posted by Pappy 2008-08-16 18:46|| 2008-08-16 18:46|| Front Page Top

#22 Speaking of the Olympics what about that Atlanta to the Sea stuff?

Y'all could always repay the favor. Say, from Cambridge to Boston harbor?

Posted by Pappy 2008-08-16 18:50|| 2008-08-16 18:50|| Front Page Top

#23 Then there is North Kosovo populated mainly by Serbs, a territory now formally belonging to "sovereign Kosovo" but refusing to be part of it.

Instead the in habitants of North Kosovo want to remain with Serbia. Right now Pristina doesn't control the area.

North Kosovars are Serbian nationals. Now if troops from "sovereign" Kosovo move in and shell the place, what then? Is that OK?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 18:55|| 2008-08-16 18:55|| Front Page Top

#24 Are you saying the Serbians (proper) are sponsoring Kosovo Serb sniping and artillery attacks against the Kosovo Albanians? Or are you accusing the NATO nations of sponsoring those attacks? Please show some clarity and consistency in your arguments. All three enclaves are part of the nation state they are attached to. It is the Russians who are attempting to annex two of them. While the Serbia may love to annex N Kosovo they have made no provocations to do so.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 19:02|| 2008-08-16 19:02|| Front Page Top

#25 "People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information.

That sounds familiar. The commie bastards were all over the internet with that line of pap including here. From the looks of the things they have sent a better lot today *wink*.
Snicker Snort Snort

Posted by Lampedusa Spereng1681 2008-08-16 19:04|| 2008-08-16 19:04|| Front Page Top

#26 ed, it's simply not true that the South Ossetians were the only ones to snipe and stuff.

Georgians have done exactly the same thing in South Ossetia.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 19:10|| 2008-08-16 19:10|| Front Page Top

#27 The S. Ossetians, with Kremlin backing, have been initiating attacks for months, increasing as the Georgians did not take the bait. Face it, a mechanized division does not move out unless it had prepared itself weeks in advance. Pretty lucky don't you think that entire armored columns were fueled, armed and logistical columns loaded up and moving out in 5 only hours. Pretty damn lucky that armored regiments were preloaded onto trains and moving into Abkhazia within hours and men already loaded onto amphib transports. Powerball Lotto winning luck if you ask me.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 19:20|| 2008-08-16 19:20|| Front Page Top

#28 Contingency planning?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 19:43|| 2008-08-16 19:43|| Front Page Top

#29 No.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 19:47|| 2008-08-16 19:47|| Front Page Top

#30 And do you think the Georgians didn't plan their move ahead as well.

Then chosing the day of the opening ceremony with Putin in China and Medvedev on holidays, hoping to block the tunnel before the Russians had made up their mind.

It just didn't work out because the Russians were prepared better than the Georgians thlought. US intelligence mustn't have been great or the Georgians didn't listen.

Mind you, I'm not pretending that one side is right and the other is wrong. I'm talking realpolitik here.

When you live in the vicinity of Russia you need to behave like you lived in the vicity of Russia, and not say Austria.

Whether Russia is right or wrong, whether it crossed the line etc does not matter.

The question is: Was it to be expected? If so, act accordingly.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 19:50|| 2008-08-16 19:50|| Front Page Top

#31 Well ed, if your small neighbor suddenly increased his military spending sevenfold, with the help of the U.S., behaving more aggressivily (note that the Georgians already stated an ill-fated assault on SE in 2004), what would you do.

Ignoring it or planning ahead by moving more troops to the border?

Saakashvili did a lot to inflame the tensions since he became president. Abkhazia and Sout Ossetia were a lot quieter before he came to power vowing to retake the two breakaway provinces.

And frankly, it doesn't take THAT MUCH planning ahead to invade South Ossetia from Russia.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 19:56|| 2008-08-16 19:56|| Front Page Top

#32 Right and wrong do not matter? Who plans and provides the provocations to start a war does not matter? A cynical throwback to 19th century imperialism does not matter? A non elected leader, bred in the most murderous organization of the 20th century, openly acting as the power behind the throne of the second nuclear power on earth does not matter?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:00|| 2008-08-16 20:00|| Front Page Top

#33 Do you truly believe that a Russian armored division moving out in 5 hours after the order and 14 hours after fighting starts is "normal". Do you think they could even track down the personnel in 5 hours?

Does the Russian Army keep fueled and armed tanks ready on railroad cars or do you think months of planning went into this invasion? How do you think the Black Sea Fleet arrived from Sevastopol in only 12 hours ready to dislodge troops? Be honest.

No doubt Russia and Georgia were in conflict. What with Russia sponsoring the 1992 war and ethnic cleansing and still occupying large chunks of Georgian territory. Ask yourself who was providing the provocation to start the war? Who had their forces prepositioned, ready for war and who was not? Who benefited?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:16|| 2008-08-16 20:16|| Front Page Top

#34 BTW, the 82nd Airbone Ready Brigade (that's one brigade of paratroopers, no armor, no naval flotilla) is ready to ship out in 18 hours. The Russians must be extraordinary military geniuses to move out a heavy division in 5 hours.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:20|| 2008-08-16 20:20|| Front Page Top

#35 ed, who upped the ante from some local skirmishes to a full blown invasion of South Ossetia?

The Georgians claimed to have conquered two thirds of SE within hours after they went in, before the Russians reacted.

You think that was not planned way ahead?

And do you think that the Russians do not have intelligence within the Georgian power center?

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:24|| 2008-08-16 20:24|| Front Page Top

#36 The S. Ossetian provocations started months ago, but really escalated into artillery duels a few days before the Georgian invasion. Coincidentally, that was the time Bush left for Asia, if you want to get conspiratorial. As we have seen, the Georgians were not as well prepared logistically for this war, even running out of gas for their vehicles. Not the western way of war at all. While on the other hand, as shown, the Russians already had their gear loaded and their people in place well before the Georgian invasion began. The Georgians walked into a Russian trap, even after some warnings from the US.

My question to you, what is your motivation for defending this Russian initiated invasion of a sovereign country?

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:37|| 2008-08-16 20:37|| Front Page Top

#37 sovereign and democratic country.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:38|| 2008-08-16 20:38|| Front Page Top

#38 ed

I do not defend Russia. I do not defend hornets stinging people but I blame people who think they can poke into a hornet's nest without consequences.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:41|| 2008-08-16 20:41|| Front Page Top

#39 To call Georgia a "democratic" country is applying very very low standards to democracy.

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:43|| 2008-08-16 20:43|| Front Page Top

#40 The "hornet's nest" was in Georgia. Russia is the imperial power occupying Georgian territory, de facto and most likely soon formally annexing those territories. You know, there are hundreds of disgruntled minorities in Russia. Oh and looky, it looks like the Russians have stirred up the "hornet's nest" of America. How unfortunate.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:52|| 2008-08-16 20:52|| Front Page Top

#41 More democratic than Russia. At least there are elections that have more than a ruling party approved (and funded) token opposition.

Posted by ed 2008-08-16 20:53|| 2008-08-16 20:53|| Front Page Top

#42 a notch up from Russia, granted

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:54|| 2008-08-16 20:54|| Front Page Top

#43 I do not defend Russia. I do not defend hornets stinging people but I blame people who think they can poke into a hornet's nest without consequences.

Indeed. It's always ... prudent ... to do that at a distance, as when Germany forced recognition of breakaway Croatia.

How convenient that others then had to step in to salvage the situation in the Balkans.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 20:55|| 2008-08-16 20:55|| Front Page Top

#44 Yes I believe that was a mistake

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 20:56|| 2008-08-16 20:56|| Front Page Top

#45 And one that many paid for -- but not Germany herself.

Some of us haven't forgotten that and wonder if it hasn't become a habit.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-16 21:00|| 2008-08-16 21:00|| Front Page Top

#46 If the Serbian army moved into Kosovo, heavily shelling Pristina in the middle of the night, occupying it, killing scores of civilians and a dozen US troops what would happen?

You mean in 1999? Dont know, since they occupied it for years and conducted an extended campaign of ethnic cleansing, we cant know what would have happened had it been a case more like Ossetia. Although even in that instance, NATO did not send ground forces to invade Serbia proper.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-16 23:04|| 2008-08-16 23:04|| Front Page Top

#47 It was a mistake but it would not have prevented the things that followed had the mistake not been made

Posted by Sherese Jones6358 2008-08-16 23:07|| 2008-08-16 23:07|| Front Page Top

#48 Had Serbia not conducted ethnic cleansing, there would have been no NATO attack. That is absolutely clear.

Whether Serbia could have prevented a KLA victory without using ethnic cleansing as a weapon, I dont know.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-16 23:09|| 2008-08-16 23:09|| Front Page Top

#49 To call Georgia a "democratic" country is applying very very low standards to democracy.

Its not jsut that Georgia is more democratic than Russia, but that its more democratic since 2004 than it was under its previous two leaders. Its a question of direction.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-16 23:10|| 2008-08-16 23:10|| Front Page Top

#50 Paganus: "I'm sure NONE of the people in HERE think like that...LOL. You guys are too much, really...."

Jebus Paganus, Welcome but listen to lotp.. She's always right on the button.

"It's a sad story, actually.

We used to have more diversity of thought here. But then the fascist BusHitler regime started having commenters beaten up and hauled away to secret prisons."

Truth to power Paganus, Just Yesterday I was hauled off BEATEN all night in our local "Lubyanka", called the Sink Trap.

Here's the Proof scroll down Paganus, lotp is correct; the fascist BusHitler regime kicked the living shiite out of me all night!

*sniff* <:(

Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg 2008-08-16 23:15|| 2008-08-16 23:15|| Front Page Top

23:40 Abdominal Snowman
23:35 Abdominal Snowman
23:29 KBK
23:22 lnker
23:15 Red Dawg
23:15 liberalhawk
23:10 liberalhawk
23:09 liberalhawk
23:07 liberalhawk
23:07 Sherese Jones6358
23:06 linker
23:05 Pappy
23:04 liberalhawk
23:01 Sherese Jones6358
22:59 DarthVader
22:58 liberalhawk
22:55 ed
22:54 liberalhawk
22:52 linker
22:52 Pappy
22:50 Elinker
22:48 liberalhawk
22:45 Sherese Jones6358
22:41 ed