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2014-10-05 -Signs, Portents, and the Weather-
Presbyterian Hospital now blames computer for Ebola fumbling
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Posted by Besoeker 2014-10-05 00:00|| || Front Page|| [7 views ]  Top

#1 "We found this magic computer system in the forest so we've been doing our medical records with it. It's not like somebody explicitly programmed it like this."
Posted by SteveS 2014-10-05 01:43||   2014-10-05 01:43|| Front Page Top

#2 The body of the article denies this headline. "Friday, the hospital backtracked, saying that “there was no flaw” in its electronic health records system and that the ER doctor did have access to Duncan’s travel history."
Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418  2014-10-05 02:07||   2014-10-05 02:07|| Front Page Top

#3 Actually, the system hid the data from the doc outside of his workflow. Despite the nurse getting the travel data, the patient lied about exposure, so it wasn't flagged. Without it flagged, the doc never saw it on his screens. All he saw was a Patient with a mild fever (101.1, gotta be 101.4+ to draw attention) and a stomach ache. No nausea, no vomiting, no diarrhea, no sweating and nothing that would otherwise trigger an alert.

The software is an artifact of Obamacare, pushed into use by an arbitrary date in the "pass it to find out what's in it" ACA, with design minimums authored by federal bureaucrats and hospital IT people - not doctors or nurses. It's job is to streamline care.

No wonder it failed.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-10-05 02:09||   2014-10-05 02:09|| Front Page Top

#4 One more time, a summary from the Dallas Evening News:
The CDC’s guidelines and those issued by the Dallas County health department are nearly identical. The county’s version begins this way:
“1. Has the patient been in an EVD-affected area within 21 days before onset of symptoms (currently Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Democratic Republic of the Congo and Lagos, Nigeria)?”
EVD is an abbreviation for Ebola virus disease.
A “yes” answer leads to Question 2, which seeks replies to eight yes/no questions about Ebola exposure, including: Any direct contact with a known or suspected EVD patient in 21 days? Provided health care to one, or been inside a hospital treating EVD patients?
If there’s even one “yes” answer, the hospital goes to Question 3, which asks if the patient has ANY — the capitals are in the original — of the following:
Fever, even if subjective, meaning the patient feels feverish regardless of the thermometer reading?
Muscle pain? Stomach pain? Diarrhea or vomiting? Headache? Unexplained bleeding or bruising?
Even one “yes” answer leads to the following instruction:
“Immediately place the patient in a private room … while clinical evaluation is in progress and until cleared by the hospital infection preventionist.”
Relatives said Duncan told an ER nurse at Presbyterian that he had just come from Liberia. The hospital said in a prepared statement Thursday that he disclosed having been in Africa. If Duncan did not specify Liberia, it’s unclear whether the hospital asked where in Africa, which has 54 sovereign countries.
The hospital also said Duncan answered “no” when asked if he’d been exposed to Ebola.
But the plan anticipates that some patients will give inaccurate or untruthful answers. Under the guidelines, even if a patient denies exposure, just being from Liberia and feeling feverish — even if the fever is below the official Ebola diagnostic marker of 101.5 — should be sufficient to trigger isolation and further evaluation.
Duncan’s stomach pain and headache were further evidence of trouble. Although Presbyterian initially called his complaints vague, and later said his symptoms were not severe, the CDC emphasizes that in its early stage, Ebola can resemble less serious diseases.
None of the responses by hospital personnel were what the guidelines contemplate. The mention of his travels apparently brought no follow-up.
Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418  2014-10-05 02:15||   2014-10-05 02:15|| Front Page Top

#5 From the previously cited article:
Friday night brought the hospital’s third version, in the form of another brief news release: There was no glitch. There never had been a glitch. Everyone who needed to know that Presbyterian had a sick patient from Africa, including physicians, did know.
Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418  2014-10-05 02:17||   2014-10-05 02:17|| Front Page Top

#6 As Anguper has indicated, the headline is incorrect and misleading. Should read as exactly as written in article:

"Hospital reverses explanation for fumbling Ebola case."


Apologies, my error.
Posted by Besoeker 2014-10-05 02:18||   2014-10-05 02:18|| Front Page Top

#7 Lois Lerner could not be reached for comment.
Posted by no mo uro 2014-10-05 05:59||   2014-10-05 05:59|| Front Page Top

#8 The Doc screwed up.

He's got a guy with an African lilt to his voice displaying symptoms that might be Ebola. He didn't ask the right questions. Blame Obama and computers all you want but in the end, the doc blew it.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2014-10-05 07:58||   2014-10-05 07:58|| Front Page Top

#9 the guy lied. He's in critical condition now. Karma - she's a bitch
Posted by Frank G 2014-10-05 09:10||   2014-10-05 09:10|| Front Page Top

#10 These are the Obamacare computers that were suppose to reduce costs by reducing manpower (human interface) and paperwork?
Posted by Procopius2k 2014-10-05 09:26||   2014-10-05 09:26|| Front Page Top

#11 Worked as an IT consultant for the implementation of a new system (software side)for the Feds (military procurement).

There is NOTHING that I would not believe in a Fed IT system as the cause of failure.

From the sound of it the velocity and volume of cases moving through any ER would make new consideration of computerized records problematic at best. Accomadating the use of new computer systems into an existing process is non-trivial.

As with so many things the answer is training, training and more training. It's always easy to see clearly in hind sight.

Proven especially true in the major hospital implementation I worked on in NYC. Wound up in a "Mortality Review" (correct term Dr. Steve?) when misuse of the system led to surgerys being cancelled due to no supplies.
Posted by AlanC 2014-10-05 10:37||   2014-10-05 10:37|| Front Page Top

#12 NS, the African sound may not be uncommon at that hospital, so it's NOT an indicator. There is apparently a large enough west African population in Dallas to where hearing such patients is not out of the ordinary. So no, don't blame the doc.

Also, the patient apparently LIED on the exposure questions, denying he had contact with infected people. So no further actions were triggered. Additionally, fever was low grade 101.1. No sweating, no nausea, no vomiting, no diarrhea reported or observed. For the medical people, all they had to go on was a stomach ache and a mild fever, with NO other significant risk factors presented, no other symptoms.

If you have EVER used the exam flow sheets in some of these computerized system, you'd realize just how streamlined they are. They are deadigned to have medical personnel spend the minimum time and resources on a patient, to contain costs, and in the case of a big city ER, quickly move non acute patients OUT of the ER, because illegals an uninsured use it for routine medical visits instead of going to a local clinic or doc. They know the hospital ER cannot refuse to see them, so they go, and end up overloading the system with hangnails and "stomach flu" and common colds. Thus the protocols were made and encoded in the Obamacre software to basically GOMER them. (Get Outta My Exam Room).

Furthermore, if you have seen these systems, they are not like paper charts where you can easily flip to different pages or sections. If you are in a structured note or flow sheet, you will generally see ONLY the data some programmer decided you should see, and nothing more. It's like you're locked on rails like in a haunted house ride. And if you deviate, you have to justify the additional time and cost, or else you get counseled and eventually fired for inefficiency.

And finally, the hospital walking back the software fault is to be expected. Epic, the company that makes the software, has a reputation, and not a good one, of getting nasty when you point out flaws. Furthermore it is VERY expensive, so the same administrators who chose to spend all that money on it are now forcing the blame onto personnel instead of their hundreds of millions of dollars they spent.

This system is broken. Thanks Obamacare, (arbitrary too soon computerization date with arbitrary and counterproductive requirements) and hospital administrators and lawyers (threats of lawsuits force different medical care) and open borders (for all the illegals overcrowding the system). The healthcare people are handcuffed, and this incident shows just how brittle and bad the system had become. Put "Doctor House" (or any other "super doc") into this system and he would have failed too.

People it's not so simple as you think it to be. Stop before you blame the doctor and nurse. The primary culprit here is the patient who lied repeatedly, lied to get into the country, lied about his exposure. After that, it's a bureaucratic system that forced the doc onto the path that was taken to cause the failure.

Big government, big bureaucracies, Obamacare and open borders have consequences. Welcome to the real world, where we are starting to pay for those things.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-10-05 11:00||   2014-10-05 11:00|| Front Page Top

#13 OldSpook is correct and on point here with one exception.

you will generally see ONLY the data some programmer decided you should see, and nothing more.

Having been one of those System Analysts/Programmers that is NOT usually the case.

The functiionality is designed based on the requirements specified by the customer, be it internal or external. The problem is that the person doing the design or vetting the design is rarely an end user and generally doesn't know jack about what the EU will actually do with the system. These people making those decisions are bureaucratic types whose goal is normally cost control and some theoretical workflow/data capture ideal. THE DATA that is captured is all too often of little or no use to the EU and as a result it is ignored in general even if there are a couple of nuggets that the EU should look at.

Too much information can be as unhelpful as too little.
Posted by AlanC 2014-10-05 11:27||   2014-10-05 11:27|| Front Page Top

#14 AlanC: True - the design is done by "subject matter experts", which unfortunately, are not the people who are the real expert - the actual clinical practitioners. Instead you get people like CDC docs who are all about theory, and short on actual practice. They hire them as consultants to "improve workflow". Its like applying Demming to medical practice. Medicine is very much an individual thing - and because of the uniqueness of individual cases, medicine is still somewhat an ART, not a science. It cannot be ultimately reduced to algorithms because of individual variations and unique circumstances. Yet that is what is trying to be done here with these system and Obamacare: reducing everything to a number in a formula. It is destined to fail, and in this case it did.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-10-05 11:41||   2014-10-05 11:41|| Front Page Top

#15 Computer systems do what they were told to do by people who don't know what they're doing. This is news?

The doc supposedly went to med school (where?) and presumably was aware that an American missionary doctor had just been flown back to the country with Ebola. Simple self interest would demand that he ask any African sounding person if they'd been in West Africa when they displayed even remotely similar symptoms. That (s)he did not do this speaks to their competence and sense of professional responsibility. People are responsible for their actions, not computers. Has the name of the doctor ever been released? I haven't heard it. Why?

I agree with you completely that medicine is an art. And I think all doctors know that and know that they are responsible for their decisions and actions.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2014-10-05 12:15||   2014-10-05 12:15|| Front Page Top

#16 *I* think blaming the gubbamint is RACCCCCCCCIIIIIIIIIISSTTTTT.

There. Somebody hadda sayit.

Yes, I fit the category, too.
Posted by Bobby 2014-10-05 12:20||   2014-10-05 12:20|| Front Page Top

#17 NS - dead wrong. Simple self interest would demand that he ask any African sounding person if they'd been in West Africa when they displayed even remotely similar symptoms

No. Not if you have a fairly large and common African population in the area, which they apparently do. Accent alone istn enough. And the symptoms displayed were, again, a stomach ache, mild fever of 101.1, no sweating, no nausea no diarrhea, no vomiting, and no exposure to the disease noted (remember the patient about exposure).

There is NOTHING there in the record to justify an ebola diagnosis and to be held for observation. PERIOD. The evidence available in the record suggest only a routine stomach virus, something thats common this time of the year, and the treatment path for that is tylenol, fluids, rest and the report back if the symptoms get worse after 24 hours, or if new symptoms appear (fever gets to 101.5 or higher, nausea/vomiting/diarrhea).

And to assume something of someone because of an accent will get you written up for bigotry in a heartbeat, especially when that sort of accent is not uncommon in the service population for that hospital. The accent is IRRELEVANT in that population group. The doc can no more use that than he can use a Boston accent to assume you are a drunkard asshole Irishman from southie. Get that through your thick head NS.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-10-05 20:37||   2014-10-05 20:37|| Front Page Top

#18 correction: shoulf read "remember the patient LIED about exposure" - both on the travel form, and to the nurse gathering the medical history.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-10-05 20:38||   2014-10-05 20:38|| Front Page Top

23:58 Skidmark
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22:47 RandomJD
22:38 Anguper Hupomosing9418
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