Even as Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan police commissioner faced television cameras and reporters in London last week to warn that a major terrorist attack on the capital was "inevitable" he knew his officers were working frantically to prevent just such an atrocity taking place. For weeks, MI5 agents and counter-terrorist police had been secretly watching the comings and goings at a nondescript rented-out industrial storage unit on Boston Road in Hanwell, west London. With the assistance of the Pakistani security services, they had also infiltrated a group of suspects and were monitoring their homes in London and the surrounding commuter belt. The lengthy, covert surveillance and the involvement of another country made UK security chiefs jittery. At Scotland Yard and Whitehall, they debated when to strike. Too soon and they risked jeopardising everything, too late and the consequences did not bear thinking about.
On Monday night, the final preparations were being put in place for one of the biggest and most complex counter-terrorist operations ever executed in the UK. In the early hours of yesterday morning, 700 police officers from five forces - the Met, Bedfordshire, Surrey, Sussex and Thames Valley - plus MI5, moved stealthily into position along streets in slumbering suburbs. None of the officers was armed - a security source said intelligence suggested guns would not be needed. The suspects were not expected to have weapons or to resist arrest. Just before 6am, police went to 24 addresses, mostly residential - but a few commercial premises too - in Uxbridge, Ilford and Colindale in London, and in Crawley, West Sussex, and Slough, Luton and Horley in the home counties. Many of the houses, in unremarkable terrace streets and quiet cul-de-sacs, belong to ordinary families, who have lived there for years. Most were not even awake before officers had bundled the eight suspects, the youngest of whom is 17, six others aged 18 to 22 and one 32-year-old, into waiting vehicles. They were taken to London's most secure police station, Paddington Green, where they will be subjected to intensive interrogation. All are British citizens of Pakistani origin.
The arrests have sent shockwaves through the Muslim community. It has suffered a huge upsurge of racist attacks since September 11 and now is bracing itself for another backlash. In Crawley neighbours of the arrested men complained that the raids were sure to increase anti-Muslim feeling. "It's taken effect straight away. People are already giving you looks as if they think you must be up to something," said Taseer Hussain, 19, from Langley Green."It's shocking. I am of Pakistani origin myself, like the guys who were arrested. I work for an airline company at Gatwick. People look at me as if I'm a suspect."
Taseer, there's a way to fix this -- make damned sure that you're a loyal British citizen and are seen as such.
The three young men arrested in Crawley live in neat, modest, red-brick terraces within walking distance of each other. Blue and white police tape was stretched across each driveway yesterday as officers stood guard outside. At Lime Close, the scene of another raid, one resident asked: "That family have lived here more than 12 years and seem like nice people. I can't believe they would be involved."
"He was such a quiet man."
Peter Clarke, the Met's anti-terrorist chief, was at pains to reassure Islamic leaders that the police knew the vast majority of Muslims were law-abiding citizens who utterly rejected terrorist violence. The young ages of most of those detained have raised concerns that others may have escaped capture, and there could be further arrests in the next few weeks. But security chiefs are convinced they have smashed a terrorist "spectacular", which could have cost hundreds of lives. The mood in the corridors of Scotland Yard and MI5 last night was one of "quiet jubilation". But with al-Qaida's determination, ingenuity and ever-shifting networks, they know only too well that complacency is the last thing they can afford.
Outstanding work.
Posted by: Dan Darling & Steve White ||
03/31/2004 12:42:40 AM ||
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That's simply terrific! Hope they get the rest of 'em.
OF COURSE people are going to look differently at Muslims now. The "nice" guy next door could be planning your funeral! It sure would help if the so-called "good guy" Muslims would speak out, en masse, against the bad guy Muslims. They certainly have time to make comments on how "badly" they're being treated now by non-Muslims, but so far, nary a word in condemnation of AQ--at least not that I've heard.
#2
....reassure Islamic leaders that the police knew the vast majority of Muslims were law-abiding citizens who utterly rejected terrorist violence.
Ex-lib, I'm with you. Is this guy,Peter Clarke, kidding about utterly rejecting terrorist violence? When did that utter rejection take place? I don't remember reading or hearing that. Chine
#3
I watched BBC news this morning and the same thing happened. They go on and on about reassuring the Muslim Leaders and the the Muslim community, the vast majority of whom are peaceful loyal citizens blah blah blah....
I understand they don't want people rioting and blaming, even attacking innocent people. For all we know, this case was cracked with the help of loyal Muslim infaltrators or informers.
Still, these endless platitudes from the media and officials are too much to stomach. It's way past time to get angry at the people who are planning and committing the terror and the ones who give them support - logistical and, more importantly, ideological. Plus the ones who excuse and apologize for them because they share small pieces of their worldview ("Er, I don't want Sharia, but I totally oppose Bush's policies and I can see why they'd be angry and desperate...") That's the real problem: Ideology (Islamic Jihad and Western Transnational Progressivism).
The Islamic world is infected and they wont rid themselves of this infection until they reject everything the terrorists stand for. Sheltered, affluent Westerners with Liberal and Progressive mindsets don't realize that in their rush to protect the rest of the Islamic community from backlash, they allow blame to be deflected away from the Islamoids and onto the 'knuckle-dragging, racist Britons.' And now the discussion turns away from what is wrong in the Islamic community and what they desperately need to do to correct it, towards what has Britain done wrong (a lot, nobody is perfect) and what can Britain do to put things right. Eventually, they totally obscure the fact that a bunch of Koran-waving bastards was plotting to commit an atrocity like the ones in Madrid and 100 other locations. We forget the vile criminals and their inhuman intentions, sinking into a morass of relativism.
When that guy from the article, Taseer, complains about the looks of suspicion he's getting, it sure seems like he's more outraged about the peoples' suspicions (a natural and expected human response - at least Britons are mostly civilized and there no mobs with torches and pitchforks) than he is that so many of his co-religionists are committing the horrific acts that bring down the suspicion upon him.
As long as this reaction prevails, the Islamic community will be able to continue delaying their internal crisis (crises). They can continue nursing their precious grievances and offended sensibilities. They can continue to view themselves as righteous and the West as villainous - as if Muslims were the only victims of injustice and all of their problems the fault of outsiders. The crisis of terrorism will continue growing as long as these attitudes persist. These attitudes will continue to flourish as long as paternalistic leftist-ideological elitists excuse it. And as the terrorism crisis grows, the greater the chances of a day of terrible reckoning - the horrific attack (and, we should remind the lefties and multicultural fetishists at the BBC, the horrific backlash). With the persistence of these mindsets, we, and they are in serious trouble. The Europeans are in even bigger trouble.
Posted by: Tokyo Taro ||
03/31/2004 3:42 Comments ||
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None of the cops were armed? They got off easy this time. The hard boyz will be ready for them next time.
#5
Well said T_T. Wish I wasn't at work so I could post my detailed feelings on this matter. We certainly have a massive problem in the UK and I have the feeling that we're about to become a lot less sentimental about our 'guests'. We should use this operation as an excuse to lock-up the entire Al Muhajiroun squad and other similar organisations. The consequent protests from the Muslim community would probably be enormous, but f*ck it - we'd at least know really how keen they were to distance themselves from the extremists.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 4:20 Comments ||
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#6
I would say that it is not the raids who will increase anti-Muslim feeling but the actions of those Muslims.
If they think those guys were bad guys it would be time for the mytical moderate Muslims to hunt them and send their heads to the nearest police station. If they think they are good guys then they are enemy and, for those who a British passport, traitors. That implies, jail and deport the foreigners, hang the traitors.
#7
TT, it was well said.
While we had a few isolated incidents of violence against Muslims here in the US after 9/11, for the most part, there have been none, even given our righteous outrage about the attacks and against the radical Muslims who were clearly the perpetrators.
Yet the Muslim community has whined for the last 2 and 1/2 years about "dirty looks."
Learn to ignore them--British people are polite and tolerant almost to a fault.
There are killers among you and I know you're smart enough to ferret them out from their other true peace-loving, more moderate Muslim "brothers."
(Radical) Islam has both religious and political aims: to bring about world jihad so that Islam rules everywhere on earth.
Infidels or kuffir are either to be killed or at best, made into 2nd class citizens who pay "protection money" to their Muslim masters.
A shar'ia government and caliphate is to be established and any other governmental system is to be abolished.
To the true Muslim believers, democracy is a "heresy."
This is what you're dealing with.
And make no mistake, they have learned, while living in the West, to use all the mechanisms of Liberalism to work in their favor to accomplish their own ends, like whining about police harrassment, mistreatment at Gitmo, and non-existent instances of the "backlash" against them by the non-Muslim public.
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 5:22 Comments ||
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Quote from today's edition of the London Metro - [free mass-circulation daily newspaper]:
"The cab driver father of one of the three (3 related suspects) last night defended his son as a devout muslim adding: 'That is no reason to lock him up"
No, but building a large f*ck off bomb with the intent of mass murder is.
When do you think they'll get it? Never methinks.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 5:36 Comments ||
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the youngest of whom is 17, six others aged 18 to 22 and one 32-year-old
This is another example of Moslem terrorists duping their own society's teenagers into suicidal terrorist acts.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 9:10 Comments ||
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None of the officers was armed - a security source said intelligence suggested guns would not be needed. The suspects were not expected to have weapons or to resist arrest.
What if they were wrong? What if one of the terrorists had reached for a grenade? The British brass clearly assign a low value on the lives of their men.
#11
The "no guns" policy was probably because of the fact that there were 5 different police units involved - more chance of blowing away another cop than of hitting a bad guy. Back-up was probably loaded for bear.
#12
Or maybe the Pom authorities were sure that their policy of prohibiting firearm ownership by the public insured that no one had any guns. (including criminals)
#14
Thank you TT for such an intelligent, well-written post.
No guns? Seriously? Hope OldeForce is right. Otherwise, that would be kind of stupid.
So many Moslems are whiners--whine, whine, whine, whine. They really whine a lot. And when they're not whining, they're complaining (subset of whining). Anybody got any ideas why they're that way? They whine and the lib Brits and Americans say "sorry--please forgive us for the horrible things we've done to you . . . we're really nice people. Please don't say we're unfair to you. Please. " Whine. Sorry. Whine. Sorry. Whine. Sorry. It's like a teeter-totter.
Security chiefs have had intelligence for nearly a year about an al Qaida supporting splinter group based in Luton and London where many of todayâs raids took place. Leaked German intelligence documents revealed last May that a cell linked to the âal Tawhidâ group was operating there. At least six addresses were raided in Luton today, and more in London, although it was not clear whether there were any connections to al Tawhid. The presence of the group in Luton and London came to light after some of its members were arrested in Germany in 2002 and 2003 amid allegations of links to the âHamburg cellâ which took part in the September 11 hijackings. Abu Qatada, the Palestinian-Jordanian cleric who is currently held without charge in Belmarsh prison under the Anti-Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001, is argued by Home Secretary David Blunkett to have been the spiritual adviser to al Tawhid.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:23:49 AM ||
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What's this 'splinter group' stuff?
Posted by: Pete Stanley ||
03/31/2004 2:45 Comments ||
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Al Tawhid - weren't they Islamo-fascists trying to overthrow the regime in Jordan? Hence they all ended up claiming asylum in the UK due to having to make a hurried exit from Jordan. They were essentially banned and had their leadership sentenced to death - Abu Qatada is now in HMP Belmarsh - much to the chagrin of many supposedly moderate muslims in the UK. Also I believe Zarqawi's mob are part of the same inter-bred family. Too much Daily Mail for me.. I'm off for a cold shower. Help anyone?
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 8:28 Comments ||
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Tawhid is Zarqawi's European operation. It's one of the components of Ansar al-Islam.
Posted by: Fred ||
03/31/2004 8:45 Comments ||
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A TERRORIST plot to kill hundreds of Britons at a shopping centre or airport was foiled yesterday after dramatic dawn raids by 700 cops. Eight suspected Muslim fanatics â all British-born and one a 17-year-old schoolboy â were arrested at their suburban homes in a spectacular operation masterminded by security chiefs. And half a ton of fertiliser often used by terror gangs to make devastating lorry bombs was seized in a lock-up at a storage depot. The cache was five times bigger than the fertiliser bomb used in the 2002 Bali atrocity.
The eight held are suspected of being disciples of Osama Bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda terror network. Intelligence chiefs believe they may have aimed to detonate a bomb at one of the M25 shopping malls â Bluewater near Dartford, Kent, or Lakeside at Thurrock, Essex. But the chilling spectre of an attack on an airport was also raised. Many of those rounded up, who are mainly of Pakistani descent, live near airports. One, an 18-year-old, was grabbed while staying at a £140-a-night hotel two miles from Gatwick. Family members at two of the 24 addresses raided are thought to work for catering firms supplying the Sussex airport. And the fertiliser was discovered in Hanwell, West London â five miles from Heathrow.
The police blitz â Operation Crevice â was one of Britainâs biggest ever. It appeared to prove suggestions that Islamic fanatics are determined to stage a âspectacularâ in Britain, possibly a suicide attack. And it followed months of surveillance and intelligence-gathering by MI5, MI6 and Special Branch. MI5 director Eliza Manningham-Buller gave regular progress reports to PM Tony Blair and Home Secretary David Blunkett. Security chiefs decided to act yesterday amid increasing fears that a terrorist cell operating in the South East of England was about to strike. Cops from five forces went into action at 6am. Some wearing riot gear used battering rams to force their way in. They held the 18-year-old at the Holiday Inn in Horley, Surrey, and seized a brand new Suzuki Vitara from its car park. Three other suspects including the schoolboy were arrested in Crawley, West Sussex, two in Uxbridge, West London, one in Slough, Berks, and one in Ilford, East London. Most are said to be âstudentsâ. The eight are aged 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 21, 22 and 32. Teams of forensic experts dressed in white protective suits swept into the raided homes.
Police also swooped on six addresses in Luton, Beds, where the extremist group Al Muhajiroun has a power base. No arrests were made in the town, where another of Londonâs four airports is located. But anti-terrorist police carried out extensive searches. And one of the homes raided was in the same street where a fanatic who joined the Taliban lived. Aftab Mansoor, 25, died fighting in Afghanistan in October 2001. A further swoop was launched on a semi in Reading, Berks. But no one was detained.
A 6ft by 3ft bag of ammonium nitrate agricultural fertiliser was found in the Access Self Storage depot in Boston Road, Hanwell â which had been under surveillance for a month. As well as being used for the bomb which killed 202 in Bali, the chemical was used in the al-Qaeda attack on the British consulate in Istanbul last year, the 1998 assault on the US embassy in Nairobi, the Oklahoma bombing nine years ago and the IRAâs Canary Wharf outrage in 1996. A security source said: âWe think the British group was planning to hit one of the shopping centres around the M25, such as Lakeside or Bluewater. The other possibility was Brent Cross on Londonâs North Circular, which is in an area with a large Jewish population.â
Secret service people moved to play down fears of an airport attack. A senior source said: âIt is entirely coincidental that those arrested today lived near airports. âWe believe the target would have been somewhere where a lot of people gather like a supermarket, a club, or a pub. âSecurity is very tight at airports and it would not be feasible to try to drive in a lorry carrying half a ton of explosives. Also, it would not have been a train or the London Underground because fertiliser bombs are not designed for those sort of targets.â
The eight were arrested âon suspicion of being concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorismâ. They were held at Londonâs top-security Paddington Green police station last night. Security chiefs do not think they are directly controlled by Bin Laden but have been brainwashed by radical clerics. Spanish officials said one of the suspects may be connected to the Madrid train bombings.
Despite the success of yesterdayâs operation, police warned the terrorist threat was still âvery realâ. The Metropolitan forceâs deputy assistant commissioner Peter Clarke said: âThe public must remain watchful and alert.â Although those arrested were Muslims, Mr Clarke said there should be no backlash against the Islamic community. He added: âThe overwhelming majority of Muslims are law-abiding and completely reject all forms of violence.â
Neighbours living near the raided homes were shocked by the sudden police onslaught. One man living in Langley Drive, Crawley, said: âI looked out of my window and saw about 11 policemen, dressed in dark clothes, run at the door with a battering ram. Then I saw a bearded Asian man being led out with his hands in cuffs in front of him. He was put into an unmarked car and driven away.â
A Pakistani woman living nearby said: âWe are Muslim but the people living there are a different sort of Muslim â more extreme.â Neighbours of a house in Juniper Road, Crawley, woke to see anti-terror cops on garage roofs. One claimed a father and son living at the address worked for Gatwick catering firm Sky Chefs. The neighbour added: âIâve seen them with their airport security passes on their necks. They have the run of the airport â they are getting on and off planes with food all day.â Another raid centred on an internet cafe in Crawley, where computer gear was being examined for possible clues to a bomb plot.
Meanwhile, terrified council housing officer Matthew Chan told how he was woken by cops shouting âGo, go, goâ as they grabbed a neighbour in Colindale, North West London. Matthew, 36, said: âI jumped out of bed and thought, âJeez, whatâs going on?â It was scary. Cops in riot gear were everywhere.â A man covered with a blanket was led away but is thought to have been released later.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:14:05 AM ||
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I sincerely tip my hat to those guys for pulling off such a brilliant raid. God Bless em' each and all. Chine
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - A North Korean engineer credited with smuggling out documents on alleged gas chamber experiments in the isolated communist state said Tuesday that the papers were fake. Kang Pyong Sop, 59, said he was tricked into handing fabricated documents over to South Korean human rights activists, according to the North's state-run KCNA news agency.
Rights activists in February released papers they said were from Kang that verified North Korea was conducting gas chamber experiments on political prisoners. However, there was no way to confirm the documents' authenticity. It was unclear under what circumstances Kang held the news conference.
"The documents on 'experiment of chemical weapons on human bodies' widely misused by enemies were false documents fabricated by my first son Kang Song Guk - who defected to the South 7 years ago - and my family," Kang said on Tuesday, according to KCNA.
Rights activists had said that Kang, an engineer at the North Korean chemicals complex, was arrested with his wife and a son by Chinese authorities while trying to cross from China to Laos on Jan. 3 in an attempt to defect to South Korea, where Kang's son Song Guk had already gone.
Kang said he met Song Guk in China in November, and the son gave him fake, blank official documents and asked him to write in the accounts of gas chamber experiments. The son claimed such documents could fetch "a huge sum of money" from South Korean human rights activists, Kang said.
No video, so we can't see the gun put to this poor fella's head.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/31/2004 12:17:49 AM ||
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This is small potatoes.
We're talking about a government that has routinely issued wintertime edicts to its provinces recommending that the infirm, handicapped or retarded have their food withheld so the general population will not starve as badly.
These guys are so long overdue for regime change they make China's politburo look benevolent.
Tens of thousands of euro of EU funds may have been diverted to people linked with Palestinian terrorism, according to a report from the European Parliament, obtained by the EUobserver. The report cites documentary evidence seen by a Parliamentary working group- set up last year after allegations that EU funds to the Palestinian Authority (PA) had been misused - that between 21,500-39,000 US dollars of EU funds may have been transferred to terrorists. It is the first time that the EU has judged its own funds to Palestine may not been used for their intended purpose.
The allegations relate to funds given by the EU directly to the Palestinian Authority account from June 2001 until December 2002. The report details the work of a 13-member cross-party parliamentary group. It is due to be finalised this evening (31 March) behind closed doors and is, in many ways, inconclusive. The group says it does not yet have enough evidence to show funds were transferred directly to terrorists, but can show that monies were transferred from the PA to members of the Fatah group, which is linked to the 'Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades' - a group on the EU's terror list. The Israeli intelligence services say that evidence yielded from military operations in the Palestinian territories show 2.5 million euro which was "requested and delivered" to the PA fell into terrorists hands, of which 39,000 US dollars can be proven to have been actually paid out. "Examination of the documents by the European Commission showed that payments to alleged Fatah activists had been authorised for a sum of 21,000 US dollars", according to the report. Although it adds: "a link between the Palestinian Authority budget structure and the financing of Fatah is difficult to clearly picture".
Especially when you're determined not to look very closely...
The EU paid around 10 million euro a month directly into the Palestinian Authority's budget during between June 2001 and December 2002 to help avert its financial collapse after Israel withheld tax transfers. The retention of the tax left the authority unable to pay staff and pay for basic public services, promoting the EU and other international donors to step in. The EU withdrew its direct assistance shortly after Israel resumed payments in June 2002.
The Parliamentary report backed the Commission's aim of propping up the PA but criticised the method chosen. "The Commissioner [External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten] showed his best intentions in order to stabilise the situation and to encourage the reform of the PA institutions in a very difficult context". However it does conclude: "Budgetary Assistance was not the most appropriate financial instrument to be implemented". Sources taking part in the talks say there is still discussion over what constitutes evidence of funding terror which could change some details of the final text of the document. It is not clear when the Parliament will publish the report.
#4
as I noted on LGF: apparently the EU doesn't read LGF or Rantburg, or they would've known a couple yrs ago
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 19:10 Comments ||
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And these morons think Americans aren't very bright?
Helloooooooo!
You Paella-eating surrender monkeys are dumber than a box of hammers!
The EU is Arafish's last source of moolah (except for whatever the Sods can sneak to him).
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 19:12 Comments ||
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I'm not amused... but wait:
"The EU paid around 10 million euro a month directly into the Palestinian Authority's budget during between June 2001 and December 2002 to help avert its financial collapse after Israel withheld tax transfers.
The retention of the tax left the authority unable to pay staff and pay for basic public services, promoting the EU and other international donors to step in.
The EU withdrew its direct assistance shortly after Israel resumed payments in June 2002."
How much of THAT money goes to terrorists? Or do (I really don't know how this is handled) the way Israel pays out money exclude the transfer of money to terrorists?
#7
TGA--Well, don't know about the terrorist supporting percentage, that is true. But it is just another example of the Israelis attempting to live up to their promises at Oslo while Arafart & Co ignored their promises.
Kinda sad to think that they would be paying for their own murder, but hey, Americans have been doing that for a while, too.
#10
TGA - that money, while fungible, was required to be released to the Paleos for their PA structure's administrative duties. The fact that a % was diverted, was a known issue, but insignificant in value compared to the EU funds in that it was withheld at significant PR cost to Israel, but WAS wittheld during periods of attacks, something the EU didn't do
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 20:09 Comments ||
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Jones, and this is interesting because why...?
If you ADL TROLLS had such a compelling message, you wouldn't have to TRAWL someone else's site!
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 20:32 Comments ||
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#12
Attention editors:
Troll cleanup in aisle #11 please.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/31/2004 20:40 Comments ||
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Frank G, if I'm not mistaken the EU sent that money for exactly the same purpose.
And when haven't there been periods of attacks? Weren't there any after 2002?
I'm a bit puzzled by this. The EU obviously wanted to avoid the total breakdown of PA authority in order to avoid chaos and a total collapse of the peace plan (which, if I'm not mistaken, the U.S. fully supported).
Now maybe that's too naive but I think if Israel still sends money to the PA, a percentage of it probably ends up in terror funds as well.
Obviously it's still in the interest of Israel to avoid the total breakdown of the PA or it would not have resumed the transfers.
What am I missing here? Sounds like 1 or 2 percent has been diverted (at least if we believe that report.) Don't think that shekels are any safer from ending up in the wrong hands?
#14
I understand that commingling funds leads to abuses, and there's no difference in the EU and Israeli-delivered tax funds in tehir possibility of end-use. When, however, has the EU taken th initiative in NOT delivering those funds in response to attacks. The Israelis did, and suffered EU/UN condemnation for "halting the peace process" - that's the difference. The EU has felt that delivering those funds while the attacks still proceed, will further the process...logic tossed aside
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 21:33 Comments ||
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EU funds may have been diverted to people linked with Palestinian terrorism
In other news, water is wet.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
03/31/2004 22:30 Comments ||
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EU funds may have been diverted to people linked with Palestinian terrorism
The family of three suspects held following raids by anti-terror police say the men have done nothing wrong. Ahmad Khan, 18, Omar Khyam, 22, and Shujah Khyam, 17, were arrested in Crawley, West Sussex, on Tuesday. Ansar Khan, father of Ahmad and uncle of Omar and Shujuah, said there was "absolutely no truth" in the allegations against them. The three men were among eight suspected Islamist terrorists arrested in raids across south-east England. Mr Khan accused police of "acting like terrorists" when they raided his house to arrest his son. He said: "They explained nothing. The warrant was shown after 20 minutes, and they wouldnât even let me answer the phone." He said the raid had left him "very angry", and his son had had to be dragged from the house crying for his mother. Mr Khan said Ahmed was a "very quiet boy" and a "good Muslim". He said he had warned him about going to a local mosque, saying: "I said, you read books by scholars. [Those books] are true, what they tell you at the mosque is not. Mr Khan said Omar had been to the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, but had no involvement with al-Qaeda. He said the family had flown out and brought him home after about six weeks. "My cousins are intelligence officers in the Pakistan army, and they helped us find him."
Mr Khan said Omar had been a keen cricketer and had been tipped to play for England one day. Omar, who studied for his A-levels in Reigate, Surrey, once captained Sussex under-18s. Eight men were arrested in Tuesdayâs raids in south-east England, and detectives seized half a ton of fertiliser, of a type used as explosive in the Bali and Istanbul bombings. About 700 officers from five forces carried out searches at 24 addresses early on Tuesday morning, following weeks of surveillance.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 8:37:50 AM ||
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Grrr Grrrr...
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 9:06 Comments ||
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Howard, hon, you *knew* they would do this... Treat it as we do trolls on RB! (Ignore it!) Mr Khan said Omar had been to the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, but had no involvement with al-Qaeda. He said the family had flown out and brought him home after about six weeks.
There's a burning question I've had for a long time:
how do these "poor, disadvantaged" Muslim terrorists get the money for the airfare from London to Pakistan-Afghanistan?
In this case, the whole frickin family flew out there!
Don't know about you, but I can't afford this and I'm not that hard up.
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 9:13 Comments ||
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#3
detectives seized half a ton of fertiliser
These nice boys had developed a very keen interest in gardening. They wanted to grow some pretty flowers for their mothers.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 9:15 Comments ||
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#4
Rip, tear, SNORT...
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 9:19 Comments ||
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#6
Amazing. Just one phone call to my local Co-op and the truck arrives with a couple of tonne of fertilizer. Tis the season.
Posted by: john ||
03/31/2004 9:48 Comments ||
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#7
'Looks like a duck ..... 'walks like a duck ....... 'quacks like a duck ..... hmmmmm - I wonder what this creature might be ???
Good little moslems? In the old American west, there used to be a saying about "Good Indians" .....
One step closer to the ultimate battle of annihilation that is slowly but surely approaching. Every day that goes by, the comparative fertility rates work against the west. Let's hope stark reality overcomes political correctness before it is too late.
Two private Saudi companies linked with suspected Al Qaeda cells here and in Indonesia also have connections to the Saudi Arabian intelligence agency and its longtime chief, Prince Turki bin Faisal, according to information assembled by German intelligence analysts.
The Twaik Group and Rawasin Media Productions, both based in Riyadh, the Saudi capital, have served as fronts for the Saudi General Intelligence Directorate, according to an inquiry by Germany's foreign intelligence service, the BND.
Twaik, a $100 million-a-year conglomerate, has diverse holdings inside and outside Saudi Arabia. Rawasin reports earnings of about $4 million a year from producing and selling audio and videotapes promoting the Wahhabi version of Islam that is Saudi Arabia's dominant religion.
The conclusions reached by the BND inquiry were presented to the office of German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder late last year and subsequently circulated within the German intelligence community.
The inquiry determined that Twaik, like Rawasin, was what one source described as "an organ of Saudi Arabia intelligence."
In the late 1990s both Twaik and Rawasin employed Reda Seyam, a 44-year-old Egyptian suspected by Indonesian authorities of having helped finance the Bali nightclub bombing. Germany's federal prosecutor is investigating Seyam on suspicion of supporting a foreign terrorist organization, namely Al Qaeda.
The German inquiry also discovered that, during 1999 and 2000, Seyam took several flights from Saudi Arabia to destinations in Europe on aircraft operated by the Saudi General Intelligence Directorate, or GID.
The Tribune reported last year that between 1995 and 1998, Twaik deposited more than $250,000 in bank accounts controlled by Mamoun Darkazanli, a Syrian-born Hamburg businessman and longtime Al Qaeda associate with close ties to the Sept. 11 hijackers during their years in the northern port city of Hamburg.
Abdulrahman Al-Fahhad, then the Twaik executive responsible for the company's rental-car operations in the Balkans, acknowledged hiring Darkazanli in 1995 to supply cars from Germany for Twaik's branch office in Albania. The money, Al-Fahhad said, had been for Darkazanli's use in purchasing those cars.
Al-Fahhad also acknowledged hiring Seyam to manage Twaik's rental-car office in nearby Bosnia-Herzegovina. In telephone interviews last year and earlier this month, Al-Fahhad continued to maintain that he could not remember how he met either Darkazanli or Seyam.
Twaik's founder and owner of record, Saudi businessman Saleh Abdulaziz Al-Fahhad, did not respond to several written requests for comment on his company's purported connections with Saudi intelligence, Rawasin and Seyam.
Rawasin did not respond to e-mailed requests for information beyond stating, "You can find our products in Islamic cassette shops."
The BND inquiry has concluded that Seyam, one of whose specialties was videotaping Muslim fighters in action around the world, was sent to Indonesia by Rawasin a year before the October 2002 Bali bombing that killed 202 people and wounded more than 300.
It is not clear whether Seyam was working on his own or on behalf of Rawasin while he was distributing what Indonesian investigators said was tens of thousands of dollars to militant Islamists in Indonesia, including the convicted mastermind of the Bali bombings.
Neither Seyam nor Darkazanli, both of whom emigrated to Germany in the early 1980s and subsequently became naturalized German citizens, has been charged with any crime in Germany. Darkazanli is the target of a separate investigation by the federal prosecutor into the suspected laundering of Al Qaeda funds.
In 2002 and 2003 Seyam served a 10-month jail sentence in Indonesia for violating that country's immigration laws. Darkazanli was accused in a Spanish indictment last year of having served as Osama bin Laden's "financier in Europe."
According to information gathered by the BND, the relationships between Twaik, Rawasin and the Saudi General Intelligence Directorate were established while the GID was headed by Prince Turki bin Faisal al Saud, the eighth and last son of the late Saudi King Faisal and currently the Saudi ambassador in London.
Prince Turki served as the chief of Saudi intelligence from 1978 until 2001. The Twaik Group was formed in 1985, and Rawasin in 1998, according to business records on file in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. In a March 18 letter faxed to the Tribune, Prince Turki stated only that "I have not developed any relationship with either group."
If the BND's conclusions are correct, the linkage of Twaik to Saudi intelligence may resolve a question that has puzzled criminal investigators: Why would a conglomerate that then ranked 67th among all Saudi corporations choose a Muslim ideologue with no apparent business experience to manage its struggling rental-car operation in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
Those conclusions may also explain why a company whose operations within Saudi Arabia range from waste removal to the management of government hospitals undertook not one but two risky business ventures in the strife-torn Balkans, where several Saudi-based Muslim charities were spending tens of millions of dollars to aid the Muslim population.
Relations between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have been frayed by the Bush administration's contention that wealthy individuals, companies and Islamic charities in that country may have contributed, consciously or otherwise, to the support of Islamic terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda.
There has been no indication thus far that any agency of the Saudi government or member of the Saudi royal family played a conscious role in supporting terrorist activities. A source familiar with the BND investigation said Saudi government officials outside the GID "probably" had no idea of the relationship among Rawasin, Twaik and the GID.
The BND's conclusions might also raise questions about whether at least some of the Saudi government's acknowledged support for armed struggles by Muslims in Afghanistan and elsewhere may have been diverted to attacks on Western interests.
Though both men are free, Seyam and Darkazanli are being kept under surveillance while the federal prosecutor's investigation of their activities proceeds.
The investigation of Seyam has been hampered by the fact that, until two years ago, supporting a foreign terrorist organization like Al Qaeda was not illegal in Germany.
That loophole, which also has caused problems for the prosecutions of two accused Sept. 11 conspirators in Hamburg, has since been closed. The loophole is not an issue in the Darkazanli investigation, which is focused on ordinary criminal statutes that prohibit money laundering.
The new anti-terrorism statute, forbidding support for any organization foreign or domestic, is not retroactive. A decision on whether to arrest Seyam and to indict him on terrorism charges will depend on what prosecutors learn about his activities after the law was changed in August 2002.
Under German law, intelligence information like that collected about Seyam by the BND cannot be used to build a criminal case, something a source familiar with the BND's investigation of Seyam described as "very frustrating."
Seyam still could be charged with an ordinary crime not related to terrorism if the evidence to support such a charge exists. His ex-wife, a German woman named Regina Kreis, has emerged as a leading witness in the criminal investigation, which is being conducted by the German federal police, the BKA.
One BKA official, cautioning that his agency was not entirely convinced of Kreis' credibility, said she had recalled for investigators riding in a car from Bosnia-Herzegovina to Germany with her husband and another man sometime in 1996.
From photographs Kreis identified the mystery passenger as Ramzi Binalshibh, who moved to Germany from Yemen the previous year and would later become the self-described "coordinator" of the Sept. 11 hijacking plot. Binalshibh is now in U.S. custody at an undisclosed location.
The journey with Binalshibh was first disclosed by the German magazine Der Spiegel, which reported last week that German authorities now consider Seyam "to be one of the most important Al Qaeda agents in Europe."
Another German magazine, Focus, previously quoted Kreis as saying Seyam had been "in touch with Al Qaeda leaders" while the couple was living in Bosnia-Herzegovina and had taken part in a firing squad that executed a Serb in the summer of 1995.
Herbert Gude, a Focus reporter who interviewed Kreis while she was in the BKA's witness protection program earlier this year, said she had been kept in the dark about her husband's business affairs and could not explain how and why Seyam had been hired by Twaik.
Kreis, who converted to Islam after her 1988 marriage to Seyam and was divorced by her husband in 2001, was not living with Seyam in Jakarta when he was arrested there in September 2002.
Muchyar Yara, the spokesman for the Indonesian State Intelligence Bureau, or BIN, at the time of Seyam's arrest, said investigators uncovered evidence indicating that Seyam was financing several suspected terrorists in Southeast Asia.
Yara said that when agents searched Seyam's rented $4,000-a-month house, they recovered documents that included the names of suspected terrorists on Seyam's payroll.
One of those names was Omar al-Farouq, believed by the U.S. to be a senior Al Qaeda representative in Southeast Asia. It was al-Farouq's capture in Indonesia in June 2002, Yara said, that led BIN to Seyam.
Seyam's "salary list," Yara said, also included the name of Imam Samudra, a Balinese Islamic cleric sentenced to death last year after his conviction for masterminding the Bali attacks.
Samudra has admitted his role in the nightclub bombings. At his trial, Samudra reportedly declared that he was "grateful" for the deaths of more than 3,000 people in the Sept. 11 attacks.
In all, Yara said, Seyam apparently handed out many thousands of dollars during his Indonesian sojourn, including one particularly suspicious expenditure of $74,000 for a "speedboat."
The BIN never found the speedboat, Yara said, noting that speedboats were "not such a common thing" in Indonesia. But he added that "we can't say directly that the money was used for the Bali bomb."
Despite the BIN's conclusion that Seyam was "a very high-ranking officer of the international terrorism network," Yara said, he was convicted only of working as a journalist while holding a tourist visa.
Seyam was not prosecuted on terrorism charges, Yara said, partly because of loopholes in the Indonesian anti-terrorism laws, and partly because of his German nationality. "We decided that his case would be better handled by Germany," Yara said.
When Seyam's jail sentence ran out in July 2003, he was handed over to the BKA, who returned him to Germany for questioning.
Interviewed by Der Spiegel in the small town near Stuttgart where he now lives, Seyam said he was being "persecuted" because of his reporting of injustices to Muslims while working as a correspondent for Al Jazeera, the Arab-owned satellite TV channel.
Al Jazeera's Jakarta bureau chief, Othman al-Battiri, said in a telephone interview that Seyam had never been an Al Jazeera correspondent, and that his application for a job as a cameraman had been rejected. Editors at Al Jazeera headquarters in Qatar confirmed that the organization had never employed Seyam.
A heavily bearded man with what acquaintances describe as a brooding manner, Seyam arrived in Germany in the early 1980s to study mathematics in Freiberg. He became a naturalized German citizen after marrying Kreis.
"He was an ordinary Muslim who became a fanatic," a senior BKA official said.
According to Abdulrahman Al-Fahhad, when Seyam took over the management of Twaik Rent-a-Car's office in the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo in October 1997, his instructions were to liquidate Twaik's operation.
"We hired him to close the business," Al-Fahhad said.
But Twaik's deputy manager in Sarajevo, Haytham Elshazli, remembers Seyam struggling to make Twaik Rent-a-Car a going concern, albeit one with a radical Islamic face.
Soon after taking over Twaik, Elshazli said, Seyam fired the company's only two female employees. He also brought a copy of the Koran to the office and began playing religious tapes during working hours.
When Seyam discovered that Twaik had rented a car to a woman with dual Israeli and American citizenship, Elshazli recalled, "He said, `Why are you renting to Israeli people, to Jews, to people like that ...? You don't have to be in contact with Jews, with such people.'"
Seyam's exhortations drove away another Twaik employee, a non-observant Bosnian Muslim who spoke to the Tribune on condition that he not be identified.
"He said, `This is not good, you must have a wife, not a girlfriend, you mustn't drink, you must go to mosque,'" the former employee recalled.
When the former employee told Seyam he intended to submit his resignation to Abdulrahman Al-Fahhad, he said Seyam replied that that wouldn't be necessary, because "I'm the owner of Twaik now."
Once Seyam took charge, Elshazli said, Abdulrahman Al-Fahhad's inspection visits to Bosnia-Herzegovina ceased. At one point, Seyam brought in a dozen or so Arabs, men Elshazli described as hard-line Islamists, explaining that they were "accountants."
The men copied every document in the Twaik files, Elshazli said, including the names and addresses of clients from the U.S. Embassy in Sarajevo.
Within a few months of Seyam's taking over, Elshazli was also out the door. "He said, `The company is ours now, and we are not satisfied with you anymore,'" Elshazli recalled. "Six months of nightmare."
Whether despite Seyam's efforts or because of them, Twaik's enterprise in Bosnia-Herzegovina failed, and in 1998 Seyam disappeared from Bosnia-Herzegovina along with Twaik.
According to the BND investigation, he turned up the next year in Saudi Arabia, working for Rawasin Media Productions.
In early 2001 Seyam began shuttling between Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, where he reportedly videotaped fighting between the Muslim majority and the Christian minority in Indonesia's remote Moluccas Islands. That little-publicized struggle is believed to have claimed thousands of lives over the past four years.
While Seyam was in Riyadh, according to Der Spiegel, "high-ranking Al Qaeda members" were seen visiting his house.
Among Seyam's alleged visitors, the magazine said, was Osama bin Laden.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 8:35:02 AM ||
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Al Qaeda a proxy for Saudi intelligence? I thought state sponsored terrorism was a thing of the past (not).
#4
Two private Saudi companies linked with suspected Al Qaeda cells here and in Indonesia also have connections to the Saudi Arabian intelligence agency and its longtime chief, Prince Turki bin Faisal, according to information assembled by German intelligence analysts.
Turki bin Faisal is one of those suspected in the disappearance of blank Saudi passports. I am unable to find the original article connecting him with this and will try to supply it tommorow. Here is some of the information:
WASHINGTON: Osama bin Ladenâs al Qaeda network, whose operatives have used fraudulently obtained passports for international travel, has acquired stolen blank Saudi passports, the FBI said on Wednesday. In its weekly intelligence bulletin to local law enforcement officials, the FBI said the un-issued Saudi passports are authentic and have key security features that allow them to pass routine examination.
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Turki bin Faisal is also heavily involved with Mullah Omar and bin Laden:
However, the legal papers tell a different story. Based on sworn testimony from a Taliban intelligence chief called Mullah Kakshar, they allege that Turki had two meetings in 1998 with al-Qaeda. They say that Turki helped seal a deal whereby al-Qaeda would not attack Saudi targets. In return, Saudi Arabia would make no demands for extradition or the closure of bin Laden's network of training camps. Turki also promised financial assistance to Mullah Omar. A few weeks after the meetings, 400 new pick-up vehicles arrived in Kandahar, the papers say.
Kakshar's statement also says that Turki arranged for donations to be made directly to al-Qaeda and bin Laden by a group of wealthy Saudi businessmen. 'Mullah Kakshar's sworn statement implicates Prince Turki as the facilitator of these money transfers in support of the Taliban, al-Qaeda and international terrorism,' the papers said.
Turki's link to one of al-Qaeda's top money- launderers, Mohammed Zouaydi, who lived in Saudi Arabia from 1996 to 2001, is also exposed. Zouaydi acted as the accountant for the Faisal branch of the Saudi royal family that includes Turki. Zouaydi, who is now in jail in Spain, is also accused of being al-Qaeda's top European financier. He distributed more than $1 million to al- Qaeda units, including the Hamburg cell of Mohammed Atta which plotted the World Trade Centre attack.
Finally the lawsuit alleges that Turki was 'instrumental' in setting up a meeting between bin Laden and senior Iraqi intelligence agent Faruq al-Hijazi in December 1998. At that meeting it is alleged that bin Laden agreed to avenge recent American bombings of Iraqi targets and in return Iraq offered him a safe haven and gave him blank Yemeni passports.
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This guy is extremely bad news and needs to be brought up short in a hurry.
People who have links to the terror network Al-Qaeda have traveled to Romania heading from Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The news was broken by the Director of the Romanian Special Services Radu Rimofte, who refused to reveal the terrorists nationality. Some of them have been expelled at the beginning of the year. Romania recently unveiled a new color-coded terror threat advisory system. Romania's President Ion Iliescu, Prime Minister Adrian Nastase, the Defense and Interior Ministers have already greenlighted it. The decision of the Supreme Defence Council is yet to rule on it.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:06:14 AM ||
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CANADAâS SPENDING watchdog slammed the Liberal government for falling short of protecting Canadians from terrorists by leaving "significant gaps" in basic anti-terrorism measures. Auditor General Sheila Fraser found that front-line airport workers still donât have access to a database of lost and stolen passports — 25,000 of which are reported annually. Meanwhile, back at the ranch... A LOCAL MAN with alleged international terror ties was charged yesterday under post-9/11 anti-terror laws for allegedly aiding an unnamed terrorist organization during the past four months. Momin Khawaja, 24, was charged under the Criminal Code for allegedly participating in or contributing to an activity of a terrorist group between Nov. 10, 2003 and March 29, 2004 in Ontario and London, England. Heâs also accused of facilitating a terrorist activity between the same dates. The Canadian-born Khawaja, a software programmer under contract to Foreign Affairs, was arrested Monday at work while RCMP officers raided his familyâs home on Princess Louise Dr. in Orleans. Amazing how this happens. Same day the Government gets rapped for lack of attention to terror issues we find somebody arrested, and the bleeding hearts still complain
"This is a sad day for Canadians. Iâm just shocked they would authorize something like this," said Qasim. "I would say itâs a sad, sad day for Canadian democracy." Like, cry me a river. This guy was working at Foreign Affairs, Canadaâs State Dept. Maybe his security clearance was under review? Or maybe the Feds just needed to make an example of somebody. This is Ottawa after all
Posted by: john ||
03/31/2004 1:34:38 PM ||
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Posted by: Franklin TROLL ||
03/31/2004 15:14 Comments ||
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#3
Remember post couple days ago about Canada preparing a Northern show the flag tour?Maybe a coincidance,but Canada and Denmark are disputing ownership of a spit of an island.Danish warship has been cruising around island and Danish sailors have landed and planted the Danish flag.Embarrased Canada.
Posted by: Stephen ||
03/31/2004 16:00 Comments ||
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#4
Nine more Americans died today because of Jewsih lies about WMD while Mr. Pruitt censors the truth.
PLEASE NOTE: Delete spaces in censored URL below.
http://AD LU SA.com
Posted by: Patrick TROLL ||
03/31/2004 15:14 Comments ||
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#1
Update: TEXAS CITY -- A series of explosions erupted Tuesday night at the BP Refinery here, sending 10 people to the hospital for chemical exposure, prompting local officials to tell nearby residents to remain indoors for about 2 1/2 hours and briefly sending oil prices higher.
Officials said the gasoline unit exploded and firefighters let the fuel that powers the unit -- naphtha -- burn out. The fire was under control by 9 p.m. and completely out by midnight. Environmental experts are assessing the site today. The Texas City refinery is the largest in the BP system and the third-largest refinery in the United States, so the blast helped stoke a brief runup in oil prices today. Only 5 percent of the plant's production was affected by the blast, Clawson said.
Local news sez it's back online, damage confined to small area. These places are always catching on fire, until the WOT started nobody paid much attention. Now it's front page stuff.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/31/2004 12:51 Comments ||
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Six New Peopleâs Army (NPA) rebels and a member of the Civilian Volunteer Organization (CVO) were killed and many other rebels were allegedly seriously wounded when a two-hour fierce gun battle erupted yesterday morning between government troops and communist dissidents in Awao, Monkayo town, Compostela Valley (ComVal), a regional Army spokesman said.
The bad week for bad guys continues.
Lt. Col. Felicisimo C. Budiongan, spokesman of the Armyâs Fourth Infantry (Diamond) Division, said that two attack helicopters of the Philippine Air Forceâs (PAF) Composite Air Support Force (CASF) provided air support for the ground troops during the heavy exchange of fire. The gunfight broke out at 6:45 yesterday morning.
"We attack at dawn!"
The rebels, numbering at least 50, were believed to be members of the combined regional and provincial forces of the CPP-NPA Southern Mindanao Regional Revolutionary Committee (SMRC). The SMRC combined forces were supposed to attack an 11-man CAFGU detachment headed by Private First Class Berja in Monkayo town. However, elements of 72nd Infantry Battallion did not wait for the attack and instead brought the fight to the reported staging area of the rebels, Colonel Budiongan said.
Outstanding! Hit them before they hit you.
In the first one hour of heavy fire, CVO Roberto Morato was fatally hit. But in the next hour of gunfire exchange, government troops inflicted heavy casualty on the enemy forces. This came as a result of the air support extended by the attack helicopters and reinforcing combat troops, the Army spokesman said. Troops of the 60th Infantry Battalion immediately reinforced the soldiers of the 72nd Infantry Battalion at the battle front, forcing the rebels to withdraw, dragging along with them their casualties, Budiongan said. The identities of the slain and wounded rebels could not be established by the Army as of yesterday afternoon.
Hard to identify where hamburger comes from. Nice work, guys. Keep it up.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/31/2004 3:27:09 PM ||
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Fred Pruitt, nine more Americans died today.
VISITORS PLEASE NOTE: Delete spaces in censored URL below.
Police in Thailand say suspected militants have stolen a large quantity of bomb-making material in the mainly-Muslim south of the country. Ten masked men armed with assault rifles overpowered security guards and stole dynamite, detonators and ammonium nitrate from a quarry, police said. The attack took place in Yala province, one of three under martial law since unrest started in January. A bomb attack at the weekend near the Malaysian border wounded 30 people. The deputy police commander in the region, Lieutenant General Thani Twibsri, said the raid was carried out by militant groups who could be planning a major attack. "It is the work of the same group of terrorists who have been creating the violence and causing trouble in the area," he said. After tying up two security guards, the attackers took 1.4 tonnes of ammonium nitrate, commonly used as a fertiliser, 58 sticks of dynamite and 180 detonators, police said.
That'll make a nice boom.
Security forces country have been put on high alert in the three provinces under martial law - Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat - and also in two other provinces, Songkhla and Satun. Thailand's Interior Minister, Bhokin Bhalakula, said he feared the militants would attack tourist destinations during April's water festival, known as Songkran. "I suspect that the culprits behind this heist are aiming to strike before or during Songkran in order to terrify tourists and make a strong impact on tourism industry," he said.
"Brillant, Holmes Bhalakula! How do you do it?"
The Thai prime minister said he believed the attackers were of dual Thai-Malaysian nationality and had escaped over the border into Malaysia, though Malaysian officials have denied this.
"Nope, nope, not here."
The attack on the bar has prompted the suspension of a $300m aid package approved by the Thai government two weeks ago and aimed at tackling the causes of unrest. The unrest has been blamed on Islamist separatists in the south who the government fears may have combined forces with international networks.
They are still trying that root causes thingy.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/31/2004 9:25:36 AM ||
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EFL:
Tourists have fled Thailandâs troubled southern provinces after a weekend bomb attack targeted Malaysians, and officials say they fear it may take years to draw visitors back. Saturdayâs blast, which wounded 28 people in Sungai Kolok, a bawdy town on the Malaysian border popular with tourists, was the first aimed at civilians and the resulting panic has devastated the tourism industry. "Within the next two years, a lot of people who work in tourism here will become fishermen," Abdul Aziz Awangseman, chairman of Narathiwat provinceâs Tourist Business Association, told AFP.
Tourism involves having fun, which is un-islamic.
"After the events of January 4, tourism decreased here by about 70 per cent, but the bomb happened just one kilometre from the Malaysian border, so people in Malaysia are scared, and maybe itâs down to 90 percent now."
Boomers plan seems to be working.
Thailandâs government has been confounded by the attacks, which have left more than 55 people dead and prompting the sackings of the ministers for defence and interior as well as the regional army chief.
Reports are that Thailand also pulled some troops out to avoid hurting muslim feelings.
Since Saturdayâs bombing in Sungai Kolok, a town packed with karaoke bars and brothels, hoteliers and officials in the region have witnessed a mass exodus of mainly Malaysian tourists. "Bookings are down about 50 per cent since Saturday," said Sopha Tawa, a manager at the Royal Princess Hotel in Narathiwat, the provincial capitalâs most up-market lodgings. "There are no tourists from Malaysia anymore, only Thai tourists, and most of those are government workers."
A light dawns. The attacks have all been in the south. Most of the tourists in the south seem to be from Malaysia. Malaysia is a mostly muslim country, so it would stand to reason a lot of these tourists would be muslims crossing into Thailand to partake in a little fun denied them at home. Malaysian islamic fundis see this, don't like it and decide to put a crimp in their fun. This would explain why the attacks have been in the muslim south of Thailand and not against the western tourist traps in Bangkok.
Meanwhile, Thai Premier Thaksin Shinawatra said the culprits behind a weekend bomb attack in Thailandâs Muslim south have slipped across the border to Malaysia due to red tape that delayed their arrest. Thaksin said that Thai authorities were working with Malaysian officials to track down the suspects.
Don't hold your breath.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/31/2004 8:37:37 AM ||
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"Meanwhile, Thai Premier Thaksin Shinawatra said the culprits behind a weekend bomb attack in Thailandâs Muslim south have slipped across the border to Malaysia due to red tape that delayed their arrest."
Sure, it appears that they are doing everything possible to protect their people and tourist industries, but I wonder if they have tried talking sternly to the terrorists yet?
#2
Hell, they didn't even breathe the words Islam or Muslim til about 8 or 9 months ago! Prior to finally admitting the obvious, the newspapers and the Gov't referred to them as "bandits" - quaint, no?
Terrorists could be planning to attack South-East Asia's busiest shipping lanes with a "crude nuclear device," Australian authorities warned in a report obtained yesterday. Over a quarter of the world's trade and half of its oil passes through the Straits of Malacca and the Singapore Strait. It also said al-Qaeda-linked regional terror network Jemaah Islamiah continued to thrive despite the arrest of 200 suspected members and appeared to be pursuing terror training and links with groups from the Philippines to Pakistan. "The overall picture ... is that South-East Asia remains a front line in the fight against terrorism. More attacks that threaten the safety and security of regional communities are inevitable," said an Australian government report.
Australian officials distributed the report at an anti-terrorism conference in Manila focusing on transport security and organised by the ASEAN Regional Forum, Asia's largest security forum that also includes the United States, Britain and other Western nations. The report warned waterways could be targeted in an attack using "a crude nuclear explosive device or radiological bomb."
"There is clear evidence of al-Qaeda's interest in attacking economic assets as a means of undermining the global economy, including attacks against shipping," the report said. It did not detail the evidence. "Despite the degradation it has suffered as an operational network, it retains an organisational structure, a determined approach to recruitment and training and a capacity to inflict further serious attacks in a number of regional countries," the report said. The arrests, including last year's capture in Thailand of Riduan Isamuddin, also known as Hambali, and heightened security cooperation, had made it harder for Jemaah Islamiah to stage large-scale attacks. Its decision-making has also been decentralised, making future attacks more varied, its scope wider and harder to predict, the report said.
One indication that the group was determined to survive was its effort to link up with organisations beyond South-East Asia, the report said, citing the discovery of a Jemaah Islamiah unit, identified as the al-Ghuraba cell, in Karachi, Pakistan, last year. The cell, composed of Malaysians, Indonesians and Singaporeans, was established to train future religious and military leaders, it said. Another Pakistan-based terror group, the Lashkar-e-Taiba, has also been linked to the Karachi cell, the report said. It said there were indications that Jemaah Islamiah was working with extremist groups in the southern Philippines "to the point of sharing training facilities and operational expertise."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:55:37 AM ||
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As I see it, two possible outcomes:
1. If it even looks like these guys are trying something, look for the USN, the RAN, the JNSDF, the Singaporeans, and the RN to get back into the fun forthwith. Anything that doesn't look (pardon the expression)kosher will get shredded.
2. Jihadis set of bomb and say, "Look! We have contaminated this chunk of ocean...and..you..are ..just...sailing...around it.....damn."
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
03/31/2004 1:36 Comments ||
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Posted by: Pete Stanley ||
03/31/2004 2:41 Comments ||
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The greatest danger on the sea (IMO) is not nuclear- it is the hijacking of an LNG carrier and exploding it in a seaport. There is an NOAA report (the Quest Report) which estimates a 5m hole in an LNG tank with a wind speed of 1.5m/second would cause a fire 2.5 miles in diameter with sufficient radiant heat to ignite fires well beyond that.
Consider the effect of rupturing all four tanks at once. I am sure AQ has.
#6
I agree with Grunter. LNG rail cars are also a huge potential problem. They're a lot more dangerous than many other things the leftists protest against being transported through residential areas.
Firstly, WHAT would they blow up? A ship that would sink promptly as the currents absorb, dilute, and carry away the radioactive materials?
JI would not waste a nuke on a ship when they could smuggle it in and set it off in a city. These are TERRORISTS, people, who TERRORIZE citizens, not ships.
Initial reports said the government's anti-terrorism task force has arrested two more suspected terrorists from a "safe house" in Quezon City Wednesday. Police identified one of the suspects as Walter Ancheta Villanueva alias Abdul Wali. The suspects were reportedly arrested in possession of explosives and guns. Officials have begun interrogating the suspects, reports said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:22:20 AM ||
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Philippines President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo says security forces have foiled a plan to bomb civilian targets in Manila, a terror strike she says that was on the scale of the attacks in Madrid earlier this month. An anti-terrorism task force has arrested six members of Islamic extremist group Abu Sayyaf and seized TNT explosives.
Security officials said later that some of the suspects, who were detained over the last few days in and around Manila after weeks of surveillance, also allegedly have links to Jemaah Islamiyah, considered to be al-Qaida's regional arm.
"We have pre-empted a Madrid-level attack on the metropolis by capturing an explosive cache of 80 pounds — or 36 kilograms — of TNT which was intended to be used for bombing malls and trains in metro manila," she told national television on Tuesday. Philippines Defense Secretary Eduardo Ermita told CNN the Manila plot was foiled by a series of arrests that began on March 22. He said several of the suspects had been linked to other attacks or extremist violence in the Philippines. One of the suspects arrested claimed responsibility for a February 27 blast and fire aboard a passenger ferry that killed more than 100 people, Ermita said. The Abu Sayyaf claimed responsibility for the incident but officials have not yet determined the cause of the blast. The other suspects were implicated in an October 2002 bombing in the southern city of Zamboanga that killed one U.S. serviceman, the beheading of American hostage Guillermo Sobero in the same year and a string of kidnappings. "There are follow-up operations going on," Ermita said, noting the investigation was ongoing. "They [the four suspects] continue to be under tactical interrogation to find out if there are other cells here in the metropolis or in others places in the Philippines and to find out whether they still have the capability of undertaking any kind of activity in case they still have some explosives in their possession."
Additional:
The Radio Mindanao Network, based in the south of the Philippines, said on Monday it had received a warning from Abu Sayyaf that the movement would take "appropriate action" if its latest demands were not met. These include the release of Islamist militants from local jails, all terror suspects in the American prison at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba freed, the removal of all Christians from the southern Philippines and foreign troops to leave the Arabian peninsula.
Yup, that sounds like a al-Qaida press release to me.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:18:26 AM ||
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Got some names from Islam Online: Gen. Ismael Rafanan, head of the PNP Intelligence Group, identified the suspects as Alhambser Manatad Limbong, who beheaded American hostage Guillermo Sobero and took part in the killing of a U.S. serviceman during Baliktan exercise in Zamboanga City; Redondo Cain Dellosa, who trained under an Indonesian terrorist instructor; Abdurajid Lim, an ASG commando who participated in the Dos Palmas kidnapping incident; and Radsmar Sangkula, an ASG explosive trainer and participant in the abduction of 53 hostages in Sumahukom, Basilan in 2000.
Of course, they're all innocent.
Posted by: Steve ||
03/31/2004 12:22 Comments ||
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Good work and a job well done. And thanks and praises to god almighty for answered prayers! Al qoward agents in the can or in fraggments so they cannot continue their muderous death cult is my kind of peace, and the only way to procure it!
"There are hidden interests behind such terrorist operations," according to a 30 March English-language commentary on Iranian state radio. The commentary said the bombings would give the United States a pretext for its military presence in Uzbekistan and Central Asia. An indication that the United States wants to take advantage of the situation, according to the commentary, is that "the United States was among the first countries to condemn the Tashkent blast." It added, "the United States might take advantage of the situation to bring its tanks closer to Russia." "At international level too, the United States might declare Muslims [to be responsible and] behind these operations; and thus continue to advance its anti-Islamic policies," the commentary concluded.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 11:07:08 PM ||
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Yeah, and Iran's nuclear program is strictly for the purpose of electrical power generation. I think they have a slight credibility problem.
Ahmad Husseini, the Iranian Interior Ministry official in charge of refugee affairs, said on 30 March that the repatriation of Iraqi refugees began after the ouster of Saddam Hussein and it will continue until the refugee camps are emptied, IRNA reported. He said the Ashrafi Isfahani refugee camp and the Dezful refugee camp in Khuzestan Province have already been cleared. Husseini said the repatriations are part of an Interior Ministry-United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) plan. Husseini said 70,000 Iraqis have returned home voluntarily. He added that in a 2001 survey there were 202,000 Iraqi refugees in Iran, and that number is down to 125,000 currently. UNHCR chief Ruud Lubbers announced the repatriation of Iraqis in July 2003 during a visit to Iran
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 11:03:56 PM ||
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A witness at the Air India trial in Canada has told the court he was asked to help plant a bomb on a passenger jet. Two Canadian men are on trial for a pair of bombings in 1985 that killed more than 330 people. One bomb exploded on an Air India jumbo jet over the north Atlantic killing everyone on board.
Now a new witness at the murder trial says months before that crash one of the accused sought help with the bomb plot. The witness cannot be named because the judge has ordered that his identity be kept a secret. But late last year, with this trial already well under way, he approached prosecutors with a story that directly implicates Ripudaman Singh Malik, one of the two men accused of the bombings.
In his testimony, the witness alleged that Mr Malik took him aside one day at the local Sikh temple and asked him to drop a briefcase off at the Vancouver airport. He was told the case contained a time bomb and that it would destroy the plane that it was on. The witness says he refused because of the number of innocent people it would kill. He says he believed the attack was to be Sikh revenge for the storming of the Golden Temple at Amritsar by Indian troops a year earlier.
The witness did admit that he is in serious financial trouble, but denied suggestions he has suddenly come forward in the hope of collecting a reward. Another witness at this trial was recently paid $300,000 for his testimony.
The Air India bombing trial began last April and is expected to continue for several more weeks.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 11:40:40 PM ||
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From Geostrategy Direct, subscription reqâd....
Pakistani intelligence agents were killed during an August 1998 U.S. missile attack on Afghanistan, a hearing of the U.S. government-sponsored commission examining the September 11 terrorist attacks disclosed last week. And what were they doing there, hmmmm?
The 60 Tomahawk missiles were fired on a complex of four terrorist training bases, a logistics center and a headquarters some 94 miles south of Kabul near the Pakistani border. The storage site had weapons and explosives. Osama Bin Laden and other top Al Qaida leaders were supposed to have been in the facility along with some 600 Al Qaida trainees. Nice rich target, if true.
According to a staff report by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States, neither Bin Laden nor other terrorist leaders were killed in the raid. Former National Security Adviser Samuel Berger was asked during one hearing whether a decision to inform Pakistan about the missile strike in advance had compromised the chance of killing Bin Laden and other top leaders. Berger said that a senior U.S. general informed Pakistanâs chief of staff about the attacks during a dinner meeting as the missiles were in flight. "Would you please pass the brrread, General Half-track."
"Certainly, Mr. Chief of Staff. Oh, by the way, Sir, I did not want to alarm the other guests, but there are 60 cruise missiles on their way into terrorist training camps south of Kabul while we speak."
"You donât say, General. Would you excuse me, I must use the phone. I will be back shortly."
"Certainly, Your Excellency."
Asked he believed the Pakistanis warned Bin Laden of the attack, Berger replied, "There has been speculation to that effect, - that he was tipped off. I tend to doubt it, for the simple reason is that we also killed, apparently, a number of Pakistani ISI intelligence officials who were at the camps at the same time. So one would think that had there been a tip, they would have gotten their own people out." "Iâm sorry, all circuits are busy now. Please try your call again later. Peshawr Operator 7734"
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/31/2004 7:07:45 PM ||
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LOL! Great comments, AP, heh, heh. A friendly "joint planning & ops" meeting, no doubt. How fitting. Too bad ALL of ISI wasn't present. Perv would've turned cartwheels!
No, just like all Clinton anti-terror initiatives though, it was inadequate
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 19:50 Comments ||
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Asked he believed the Pakistanis warned Bin Laden of the attack, Berger replied, "There has been speculation to that effect, - that he was tipped off. I tend to doubt it, for the simple reason is that we also killed, apparently, a number of Pakistani ISI intelligence officials who were at the camps at the same time. So one would think that had there been a tip, they would have gotten their own people out."
Some times sacrifices have to be made, Sammy baby.
#5
Considering the exceptionally lackluster performance of Pakistani intelligence in apprehending bin Laden coupled with the ISI's likely complicity in India's Parliament terror attack, I'd have to say that any agents who won cruise (missile) tickets that day, most likely were not infiltrating and instead collaborating with al Qaeda. At least, that's a chance I'm willing to take.
Second only to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan has done more to breed up the monster of International terrorism than any other country. This primary insult to the global community is almost completely outweighed by Pakistan's willing proliferation of nuclear technology throughout the entire Middle East. They have much to answer for.
#2
He had just climbed into his Land Cruiser when the vehicle was hit by a high-precision remote-controlled missile. Basayev died immediately, his head being torn off by the blast.
Sarah Whalen, Arab News
âFirst thing we do, letâs kill all the lawyers,â cries Dick the Butcher, a rabble-rouser plotting to overthrow 15th century Englandâs King Henry VI in Shakespeareâs play. But after Israelâs ruthless assassination of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, perhaps Shakespeare would have altered his famous line to, âFirst thing we do, letâs kill all the leaders.â
There's a difference between warfare and a play, even a play about warfare. But go on...
For this is exactly what Israel proclaims for all Hamas, Islamic Jihad groups, and even secularists like Yasser Arafat.
She's talking about the people who're making war on Israel and by extension on civilization...
Six months ago, Israelâs Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared that it had âmarkedâ Yassin âfor death.â Now, Israel has openly lengthened its âhitâ list. Israeli Public Safety Minister Tzachi Hanegbi avows: âEveryone is in our sights.â And Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz declared that Israelâs âliquidatingâ has only just begun.
Seems like a reasonable attitude to me. People who're responsible for liquidating people on buses should be liable for liquidation themselves. It's only fair.
The Bush administrationâs response to Israelâs open policy of indiscriminate assassination is akin to Shakespeareâs Cade, Dick the Butcherâs ruffian leader, who ponders the wisdom of killing âall the lawyers,â then agrees because lawyers are tricky and bad. Cade and Dick then scurry off and kill the clerk of court. Who was not a lawyer, but close enough.
The sheikh didn't toss bombs, but he sent people to do it. Close enough.
Back in the 21st century, US National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice furrowed her brow, called for calm âin the region,â and then reprised Cadeâs death-to-lawyers remarks: âLetâs remember,â former Stanford University Professor Rice lectured, âthat Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheikh Yassin has himself personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning.â Not âterrorismâ per se, but âterrorist planning.â Does this ring a bell?
Dang! It sure does! Like in The Godfather, when the Don doesn't bump people off, he has Luca Brasi do it. And then after Luca and the Don are both dead, Mike gets his own "Luca Brasi." Masterful!
Not âweapons of mass destruction,â but âweapons systems plans.â
Oh. Sorry. Thought you were making sense for a minute there.
Few contend that Yassin, practically blind, was an active terrorist himself. His crippled body confined him to a wheelchair and his reedy voice barely whispered. But he set an agenda long ago, and his refusal to compromise with Israel on any terms, and his demand of Palestine for Palestinians, marked him.
Actually, it was the bus booms. And the dead kiddies. You claim to be a lawyer, Sarah. You know that the guy that hires the button men is as culpable as the button men are. That's first-year law.
Israeli politicians claim Yassin actively sponsored suicide bombing. But even if true, Israel has no one to blame but itself.
That's a dumbassed statement if I ever heard one. But somehow in the Arab world the victim's at fault, unless the victim's an Arab. Seems to work that way in the lefty world, too...
In 1989, Israel had snugly imprisoned Yassin away for life, having tried, convicted, and sentenced him for complicity in the murder of Palestinian Israeli collaborators. In 1997, Israel agreed with Jordan and the United States on the exact value of Yassinâs life â two Israeli agents caught in a bungled attempt to poison a Hamas leader lawfully within Jordan, a country which enjoyed, in theory, a full peace with Israel. Then-King Hussein had reportedly telephoned the United States, and furiously threatened to execute Israelâs assassins if Israel did not immediately provide an antidote. In settlement of Israelâs egregious breach of Jordanâs sovereignty, Israel traded Yassin for the two Israeli assassins, whom Jordan had every right to execute. Deal done.
I agree. That was a crummy idea. It bought them no end of grief in the long run. But it's hard to let your loyal people get bumped off.
Now, following Americaâs invasion and occupation of Iraq, Israel decided its deal for Yassin looked less good than it had seven years ago.
That's because he went back to his old ways, only worse, killing people in droves...
And so, under cover of darkness for an even darker deed, before the daybreak had cleaved from the dark, Israel sent yet more assassins, armed with three missiles from a US-made Apache helicopter.
Wow! Is that prose purple! And nobody else makes Apache helicopters, so it's not necessary to refer to them as 'US-made." It's kinda redundant unless you're mindlessly trying to make a political point that has no meaning.
They swooped down from the sky as Yassin, family members, and others left a mosque after morning prayer, and blew them to bits.
Hurrah! Brain globules everywhere!
If democracy is to bring Dr. Riceâs âbetter dayâ to the Middle East, one must question how much the targeted killing of Middle Easterners by both Israel and the US is part of the plan.
My guess would be that the killing removed an obstacle, an enemy of democracy and of individual liberty. What's yours?
Although Rice claimed Israel had not âinformedâ the US âin advanceâ of its clearly long-considered murder plot, advance notice seems to have scarcely mattered.
It didn't. Sovreign country, taking action against its enemy. The Russians don't check with us, either. Neither do the Brits. Israel's not a U.S. colony.
One wonders whether Rice would have told the Israelis not to go through with the assassination. Or would she have warned Yassin, as US law requires, so as not to become part of Israelâs murderous conspiracy?
Guess we'll never know. Maybe that requirement for warning is why they didn't tell us. Or maybe because it was their business and not ours. We don't tell them when we're going to sweep Khost or Fallujah, either...
What should profoundly disturb us is that Israelâs âkill all the leadersâ policy seems such a perfect fit with Americaâs own plans for the Middle East. We want to âhunt downâ and kill Osama Bin Laden, virtually every Al-Qaeda member and every member of the Taleban.
That's because we're at war with them. Haven't you heard? They attacked us. They can surrender or die. Israel feels the same way about the Paleo thugs.
We have advertised bounties on many Iraqi former officials and has already hunted down and killed Saddamâs two sons. We would have likely killed Saddam himself if they had captured him before the warâs official end, when military law turns lawful âtargeted killingâ into cold-blooded murder. Dead or alive. But everyone knows that dead is easier.
Yeah, it is. It doesn't respond well to interrogation, though. And it would have been lawful and legal to have shot Sammy on the spot, since he was out of uniform and engaged in non-conventional warfare.
About Israelâs plans to murder Yassin, and then to murder again and again, until the last resisting Palestinian falls dead in Israelâs crosshairs, the greatest democracy in the world says ..... well, nothing.
This particular 1/285,000,000th of it says "Good idea!"
US Gen. Wesley Clark claims the Pentagon plans to invade, occupy, or otherwise pacify seven Middle Eastern states in five years. How to accomplish this? First thing we do, letâs kill all the leaders. It makes democracy so much easier to come by. â Sarah Whalen is an expert in Islamic law and taught law at Loyola University School of Law in New Orleans, Louisiana.
What lucky students she had. Got a mind like a steel trap, she does...
Posted by: Fred ||
03/31/2004 2:53:17 PM ||
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Excellent comments!
What really pisses the left and the islamo-fellowtravellers off is assassinating the terrorist leaders works. Not only has there been no sigificant terrorist attack since Yassin's assassination, the 'moderate' paleos seem to have found a voice and are denouncing terorism. Whether this does any good or not remains to be seen, but it is progress of a sort.
Posted by: Phil B ||
03/31/2004 15:54 Comments ||
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Wonder if she taught her students assassin derived from Islamic group that was founded to,um,er,"assassinate" Crusader leaders.
Posted by: Stephen ||
03/31/2004 16:04 Comments ||
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This mentality should be applied to Fallujah. Seal it off, conduct an operation to root out and capture the leaders of local resistance, and bump 'em off no questions asked.
#4
She's bitchin' 'cause it's workin'. Hamas and Co respect power applied violently. Negotiation is considered a weakness. I am sure that the Israelis will negotiate with reasonable Palestinians if they ever surface after all the psychopath leaders are eliminated and the Paleos really want a negotiated peace.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
03/31/2004 16:22 Comments ||
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"Israel agreed with Jordan and the United States on the exact value of Yassinâs life â two Israeli agents caught in a bungled attempt to poison a Hamas leader lawfully within Jordan, a country which enjoyed, in theory, a full peace with Israel."
What's the problem with Israeli agents trying to poison a Hamas leader lawfully? Oh, that's not what you meant to say?
#7
I about barfed when, at the very end of the article, we find that the lady was American! Whalen and the Arabs always think Israel is a US colony, a puppet. The reasoning goes--wipe out America and it's allies to get to Israel. But they don't even have to wipe them out. Just get them thinking like Sarah.
#8
This is the same maggot who glorified the 9-11 atrocity as a "Miracle of God," while simultaneously condemning Yassin's Hellfire Enema⢠as "terrorism."
For starters, let's get this guy into solitary confinement on short rations with hard labor for a few months. Any more inciting of violence against American soldiers or citizens should result in years of imprisonment.
Hat tip LGF. al-Rooters
An explosion ripped through an outlying district of the Uzbek capital Tashkent Wednesday, causing casualties, Russiaâs Interfax news agency reported. The agency quoted an unnamed source as saying the blast occurred in the Sabidrakhim district in the southwest of the capital. It said the number of casualties was being checked but gave no more details. The city has been in the grip of two days of violence which has killed more than 40 people. Authorities blamed radical Islamist groups for a series of explosions Monday which killed 19 people. Twenty-three died Tuesday, when security forces besieged a suspected Islamic militant hideout. Officials in Tashkent were not immediately able to comment on the latest report. Russiaâs Itar-Tass news agency, quoting sources in the State Prosecutorâs Office, had earlier reported that 30 people had been detained in the past 48 hours and charged under anti-terrorism laws.
Looks like there's a terr offensive under way. Wonder if it's got an objective, or if it's just mindless violence?
Update: A grenade that was set up as a booby trap detonated Wednesday night when a police patrol tried to enter the gate of a house in Tashkent, leading to a standoff in which militants took an unknown number of hostages, a police major at the scene said. A second officer said about 20 militants were holding "many" hostages in the house. He said special police forces surrounded the area but were afraid to launch an assault out of fear the hostages could be harmed. Neither of the officers would give their names or give details about whether anyone had been killed or wounded. The Interfax news agency said there were an unknown number of casualties in the blast in the Sabir-Rakhimovski district of Tashkent, about a half mile from the Chorsu bazaar where suicide bombers struck Monday. Russia's Channel One television reported three people were wounded.
Given current events, I wouldn't put much hope in these hostages getting out alive. Hope I'm wrong, but my vote is for mindless violence.
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
03/31/2004 10:55:00 AM ||
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[Troll droppings deleted]
Posted by: Franklin TROLL ||
03/31/2004 15:15 Comments ||
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Another troll spew on Aisle 1, Fred.
I spoke to some friends from the 8th Special Forces I knew when I was in Panama, back in the late 1960's. This dimwad infests a couple of sites they visit, too. One of them lives in Simi Valley - the police are uncooperative. We may need a bigger hammer.
As for the violence in Uzbekistan, it has a purpose: the disruption of daily life, and the destruction of the nation, through mindless, random violence - the perfect description of typical Islamofascist tactics.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
03/31/2004 15:28 Comments ||
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geez OP, I hope you're not suggesting that daily life in Uzbekistan has some sense of normality in the first place
âHate Attack On Foreignersâ In Iraq
The level of hatred against western nationals in Iraq was highlighted when several foreigners were reportedly killed, burned, mutilated and dragged through the streets of Fallujah.The foreigners were killed after gunmen opened fire on two vehicles in the town, west of Baghdad, witnesses said. The insurgents then reportedly set the vehicles on fire, burning the passengers. TV pictures showed a crowd of cheering Iraqis kicking and stamping one of the charred bodies and dragging another blackened body down the road by its feet. The footage showed at least three people lying dead, while some witnesses said four were killed. Witnesses said the attackers were seen dancing around the car and making the victory sign. They said the cars were four-wheel drives, similar to those used by members of the US-led occupation authorities in Iraq.
The attack comes as five Coalition soldiers were killed in a bomb attack, also west of Baghdad. A military spokesman said the soldiers were driving a car in al-Anbar province when they hit a bomb. The nationality of the dead soldiers is not yet known, but the vast majority of troops operating in the region are US Marines. The al-Anbar province, which includes the restive "Sunni triangle" towns of Falluja and Ramadi, have been a focus of anti-American attacks in the past year. Fotos
The Fotos link leads to a series of pictures showing the incident. If I was in charge, which thankfully for the perps involved I'm not, I'd track down every person identifiable in those pictures. After extracting the names of people involved in the incident but not in the pix, I'd kill them.
The same people conducting this sort of festivity are the ones who were ruling Iraq before we got there. Their behavior is the same. They're still the enemy. They're still savages.
Posted by: dw ||
03/31/2004 9:19:01 AM ||
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Chanting "Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans," residents cheered after the grisly assault on two four-wheel-drive civilian vehicles, which left both in flames. Others chanted, "We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam."
Just as with Black Hawk Down the first thing I thought of when I heard the story on the news was a vignette in Huckleberry Finn - so I've put it up as an excerpt, just in case anyone is inclined to read it.
You already know what I'd prefer to do with the Sunni Triangle. Up to now, we've been skirmishing, mainly because there are no Arabs on the planet, including the Iraqis and particulary these Sunni Ba'athists, who can withstand more than a few moments in a stand-up fight with the US Military. Our armed forces swept through their pathetic "country" like a wildfire through dry grass. No, all they can manage are sniping, ambushes, and cowardly acts against (mainly unarmed) civilians. Fallujah and the other dens of snakes in the Triangle are striving mightily, IMHO, daring us to make an example of them. Whatever we decide to do, the key is to just do it, hard, fast, and without hesitation. If they decide to wipe the Triangle off the map, I'll work up a tear for the fodder who hide the snakes. Later.
#5
Iraqis chant anti-American slogans as charred bodies hang from a bridge over the Euphrates River in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, Wednesday, March 31 2004. Enraged Iraqis in this hotbed of anti-Americanism killed four foreigners Wednesday, including at least one U.S. national, took the charred bodies from a burning SUV, dragged them through the streets, and hung them from the bridge.
I hope we have a response to this.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
03/31/2004 10:44 Comments ||
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My druthers? First that bridge comes down - NOW - with a cruise missile. then Fallujah is evacuated and ground to dust - no remnants. Salt the earth. Build the highway to bypass the site, but close enough so everyone can see the sign posted:
"4 dead civilians = death and destruction til you've had enough, F*&kers!"
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 10:51 Comments ||
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I remember once reading about how horse messengers who served in the Mongol Army of Ghenghis Khan were treated in the conquered lands: With a lot of respect.
I think some disaffected locals once ambushed one of these messengers. I don't remember the details of Ghenghis Khan's response - I think it was something like killing every human being and animal, and leveling to the ground every man made object within one day's ride of the spot where his messenger was waylaid.
I too am getting tired of watching the US military's body count inexorably mount, while we
continue to be "nice guys." I would now support an awe-inspiring spectacle being made out of the entire Sunni Triangle. Torch the place, and sow salt into the ground so that nothing grows there for another 1,000 years.
#8
Why wasn't the photographer who took that picture lynched? Was he from one of the Arab "news" services? Has anyone figured out which particular bunch of nutjobs was involved?
Either the people of Fallujah lynch those responsible, or we have a duty to humanity to remove Fallujah from the planet.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 11:08 Comments ||
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And the Marines are enthusiastic about, one, maintaining security, but more enthusiastic about the second aspect of that, which is getting on with the notion of providing support in that region, so that all citizens in the Al Anbar province, all citizens in the town of Fallujah will not be terrorized by a small number of insurgents, but in fact can profit from the significant amount of civic action projects that they can bring into the town of Fallujah.
Most human beings in such situations simply keep their heads down. Did we remove all the "innocent bystander" Germans from the planet? Japanese? All those who see those as models for the Iraqi occupation must take a deep breath and reflect. The left will use as this a call to run. The right will use this as a call to take the kinds of actions that will win sympathy for the america haters everywhere, that will make it impossible to govern Iraq, and pursue our other goals in the WOT.
What is needed is persistence and resolve, painful though it is. To pursue and punish those who are GUILTY BY THEIR ACTIONS. This may take much tougher actions than we are doing now - including curfews, home bulldozings,mass arrests etc. It does NOT require that we fail to distinguish the innocent from the guilty.
#11
Better yet - riase a brigade or so of Kurds - and give THEM responsibility for Fallujah...after we've sealed the place off.
Mike
Posted by: Mike Kozlowski ||
03/31/2004 11:45 Comments ||
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The video has been shown on french networks ; it is ghastly, with a (small) hysterical mob throwning stones at the car, dragging mutilated, burnt, bodies, hitting them with clubs and shovels, showing dogtags, all the while seeming very happy. Gruesome. Apparently, they dismembered them. The two victims are said to be civilians working for the coallition.
I truly hope the US authorities will use that video to get back at the perps, te same as israelis did for the lynching of the two reservists, back at the beginning og the "intifada". Btw, the "point" noted by the commentator on LCI (french continouus news channel) was that US public won't be shown that video, so not to bring back memories of Mogadiscio, and perception of the iraqi situation was distorted for americans.
#13
I don't think the Marines are going to take kindly to this kind of savagery. They are working to be good guys, but know that they will kick some serious ass when it is needed. I am confident that they will be rounding up the scum in the video and putting them through a a bit of hell. If there is resisitance, then heaven help the Fallugans.
Posted by: remote man ||
03/31/2004 12:09 Comments ||
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I think James Cameron said it best in his script for "Aliens", when he had Ripley eloquently say,
"Nuke it from orbit...it's the only way to be sure."
#15
Liberalhawk: The right will use this as a call to take the kinds of actions that will win sympathy for the america haters everywhere, that will make it impossible to govern Iraq, and pursue our other goals in the WOT.
This is liberal horse manure. The Japanese killed huge numbers of civilians during their campaigns in East Asia and essentially shut down the guerrillas in most parts that they occupied. The Soviets killed huge numbers of Ukrainians and finished off the Ukrainian resistance. The fact is that discriminatingly applied force works - flatten one town, cow a thousand has worked since the time of Genghis Khan. The people who hate the US aren't really motivated by new events - for them, the US is the root of all evil.
The Allies killed 500,000 civilians via bombings in Japan and 2 million civilians via bombings in Germany during WWII. The end result? Zero Japanese and German resistance in the postwar period.
#16
Let's rent some Israeli bulldozers. Let the Israelis drive them. I suppose they'll have to go through Jordan first. Oh well.
Posted by: (lowercase) matt ||
03/31/2004 12:28 Comments ||
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LH -- I know the left gets all warm and moist when third-world thugs attack civilized people, but see that guy in the foreground of the photo? I don't care if he wandered into the area after the beasts were done with their blood festival; he's cheering, and that means he needs to die. The same goes for everyone else in that photo, and I'd be willing to extend that to the photographer, too, because I bet it turns out some of our old al'Jazeera/al'Arabiya friends were involved.
Civilization has to kill the barbarians, or the barbarians will win.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 12:36 Comments ||
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If they catch the perps that participated in this, I suggest hanging them from that same bridge.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 12:46 Comments ||
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#19
I would have first gotten eyes on target with a drone. Then I would have put together a JAAT mission on that bridge. I would have started with every tube within range and moved everything practical into range. Phase one would have been a ten-minute time on target mission with HE and WP, just to shake things up. Phase two: Fast movers and ICM to kill everything left on the bridge. Phase three: Rotary wing to machine gun anything left moving. Phase four: Evacuate everyone in town, man, woman, and child. Put them behind barbed wire and start sorting them out. The leaders and henchmen go to prison camps in the Kurdish north and Shia south. You won't have any problems with the folks left.
#20
This is one of those days where some subconscious internal cogitations occur. The external indicator is that I suddenly had the impulse, after hearing the lead-in to this story 50 times on Fox cable, to mute the sound and play music while browsing RB. Appropriately, THIS is what was on at the moment that I was prompted to comment, again. You Oldsters out there - enjoy the memory trip...
#21
RC - im a patriot and a Zionist and a firm hater of the terrorists - dont go with this warm and moist stuff to me - I agree with LD, whoever did this should HANG from that bridge themselves.
And if some of the folks who cheered suffer from the inevitable crackdown in Fallujah, you wont hear me complaining. But cheering, even for evil,isnt a crime worthy of death. Thats what makes us civilized, and the other side barbarians.
ZF - IIUC the Japanese had to maintain a large occupation presence in all the counties they held. Need i remind you that Bush and Rumsfeld DO NOT intend to occupy Iraq indefinitely - nor do we intend to have US troops occupy Egypt, Algeria, etc.
As for the USSR, we are not totalitarians. You use the methods of stalin, you end up with a stalininst society. You want to become like the USSR, because some bastards mutilated a few corpses?
And yup, we dropped plenty of bombs in WW2. and we did in afghanistan and IRaq as well, of which i approved. And we will probably do so again. But we do NOT do so with the intention of murdering civilians. Even in Dresden there were strategic targets.
In any case we did NOT occupy Dresden when we targeted it. Occupation is different from conventional war. You simply cant do the things during an occupation you can during a conventional war. If we dont have the stomach for it, we had better get out now.
#22
This is really simple:
- surround the Sunni Triangle.
- give everyone 2 weeks in the Sunni Triangle to vacate.
- Search everyone and everything that leaves.
- Put up tent cities for those who leave.
- Low altitude neutron bombs over every village and city.
- MOAB the larger cities.
- hand those who left a $5 billion dollars to clean up the mess.
- if the terrorism contines...do it again.
#23
This is really simple:
- surround the Sunni Triangle.
- give everyone 2 weeks in the Sunni Triangle to vacate.
- Search everyone and everything that leaves.
- Put up tent cities for those who leave.
- Low altitude neutron bombs over every village and city.
- MOAB the larger cities.
- hand those who left a $5 billion dollars to clean up the mess.
- if the terrorism contines...do it again.
#24
at least, today I am absolutlely sure that the current administration WILL instruct the US military to respond to this...appropriately and quickly. and I believe that that the Iraqi's know that response will be coming too. Its been a long time since the world knew that there was a price to pay when you mess with the US, but today I think that there is little doubt in the world anymore. It is a small comfort, but it is about time.
Posted by: mas ||
03/31/2004 13:13 Comments ||
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#25
im a patriot and a Zionist and a firm hater of the terrorists - dont go with this warm and moist stuff to me
Then you're part of the smallest minority on the left. Maybe you should drop the "liberal" part of your name.
I agree with LD, whoever did this should HANG from that bridge themselves.
And so should their fathers, their mothers, their brothers, their sisters, and every damned other person who didn't turn the animals over to authorities. Call it "aiding and abetting" if you need to hang a name to their crime.
But cheering, even for evil,isnt a crime worthy of death.
Yes, it is. Those folks are encouraging it, supporting it; they should suffer for that, so that others won't support the animals.
If we dont have the stomach for it, we had better get out now.
Yep. And punishing this kind of crap is what we had better have the stomach for.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 13:34 Comments ||
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#26
at least, today I am absolutlely sure that the current administration WILL instruct the US military to respond to this...appropriately and quickly.
Really? I expect we'll do almost nothing. Maybe a raid, maybe a few arrests; certainly nothing to make Fallujah suffer for letting the beasts make it their lair.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 13:35 Comments ||
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#27
RC - I know im a in a minority - but hell, im used to that and it doesnt bother me. Opposition to terrorism is a natural expression of liberalism - see Paul Bermans "Liberalism and Terror" or almost anything written lately by Christopher Hitchens. I continue to be a liberal for a range of reasons, most of which are not on topic here.
Aiding and abbeting - yup, thats a crime, but not a hanging one.
those who encourage should suffer - like i said, if the locals suffer from the curfews and other aspects of the crackdown, you wont hear me complaining. There are punishments short of death, you realize? I dont opppose the death penalty, but i dont see it as appropriate to EVERY crime.
#28
I'm with LH and with Fred. The perps die. No argument; find them and kill them. We don't need to hang them on the bridge, a newspaper notice afterwards will do: "we found them and we shot them. Bodies may be claimed at the local morgue."
We don't necessarily kill the ones who cheered, unless we find that they had some part in this. Then they die. If we find that they're part of the jihadi/Ba'athist movement, we squeeze 'em dry like a tube of toothpaste. LH says that if aiding and abetting is not a capital crime -- mebbe, depends on how much they aided and abetted.
It's a war zone, and the people who did this are irregular combatents. We have the right to shoot them on sight. I don't endorse indiscriminate killing, I don't endorse killing innocents, and I don't endorse killing those who came to the bridge afterwards and cheered -- far better that they absorb the lesson we're going to impart to the active participants, and live to teach their children "don't ever, ever mess with the Americans."
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/31/2004 14:19 Comments ||
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#29
"Really? I expect we'll do almost nothing. Maybe a raid, maybe a few arrests; certainly nothing to make Fallujah suffer for letting the beasts make it their lair."
Robert Crawford has it right, and that's part of the problem. So does 115S have it right...and of course on the broader question Liberalhawk also has it right.
The time to respond was during the incident. I am surprised that there was no contingency plan for an event like this. This should not have been a surprise to any one...it was coming.
But a rapid reaction force should have gone in all guns blazing...anyone around the bridge would have been fair game. But it had to be done then. Immediately.
Of course we would have all then been seeing pictures of "poor innocents," killed at the bridge....but at least it would have sent the correct message.
#30
Steve -- I want their great-grandchildren to wake up screaming from the nightmares they have over what Americans will do if they piss us off.
This kind of crap -- attacking civilians who were there to repair the basic functions of the city then parading the bodies around like they're lions you killed with your bare hands -- is a declaration that they do not want to be treated like civilized people. We should recognize their preference, and respond as they wish us to.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 14:33 Comments ||
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#31
O.K., I have to say a few things here. When one hears news, and sees images like this, it is understandable to want complete Dire Revenge. I'm just as pissed off as you are. However, carpet bombing the place, burning down the place, killing all the peoples' involved relatives, and bringing up "nukes" isn't going to help anything but make the situation worse. Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to depend on the help of the Iraqi people, as well as others in the Muslim world to help us on the war on terror.
The people who perpertrated this crime need to be brought to justice, and like I said before, I would like nothing better than to see them hanging from the same bridge. However, bystanders also warrant punishment, but not to the same extent. I also think the people of Fallujah need to be warned that unless they decide to join the civilized world, we will no longer help them with food, electricity, or water till we see that they are ready to co-operate. And then we need to make good with the threat if no change occurs.
RC, I know plenty of liberals that are hawks. Yes, it's true that the majority we hear now a days are peaceniks, but they are not all that way. Joe Lieberman is just as hawkish as any Republican out there as an example.
P.S. I'm Republican.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 14:46 Comments ||
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#32
Robert...you are so right. They are subhuman.
and unfortunately Traveller is right...we will likely do nothing more than what he has described....which will encourage them to do more of the same.
You have to treat the cockroaches like cockroaches.
Posted by: Franklin TROLL ||
03/31/2004 14:57 Comments ||
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#34
Interesting points gents. Personally, after witnessing the dead bodies being molested by the enemy I would have moved in a Marine Battalion on-line w/supporting arms and secured that bridge and thus recovered *OUR DEAD*. Second, any resistance would be put down w/absolute force. Anyone caught defiling our dead would be shot on sight. To let them do that and not respond w/in an hour of learning of the incident is incomprehensible to me, but again, I'm not in the Combat Ops Center (coc) of the command there.
Next, I would call martial law, 1900 curfews, & house to house searches w/Iraqi military who can really do the dirty work. All Fallujian's who show respect will be given respect in return, otoh, all trouble-makers and shit-heads should be pulverized and made an example of. Remember, we are not dealing w/Judeo-Christian westerners, meet and beat them on their own terms and in concepts they understand.
#36
You know, maybe Lil Dhimmi has a point. Cut off all basic services to the city of Fallujah, or just let them fall into disrepair...pull everyone out, and let a state of anarchy exist.
As a practical matter, being a practical man, I am still undecided if check points should go up refusing to allow people to leave. However, maybe no food staples should be allowed into Fallujah, and let the exodus begin.
Since the correct moment was missed on when to react...I'm trying to find out what now...arrest? I just don't see it.
Starve the city into non-existence. That's the ticket. Really...you don't have to kill anybody, no terrible reprisals....just no food in, no basic services and create a ghost town.
#37
Actually, Lil Dhimmi, starving civilians and denying them basic services are major breaches of the Geneva Conventions. The "brave Arab warriors" on the bridge were irregular combatants engaged in gross violations of the Geneva Convention. Attacking the lynch mob could have been justified under the "reprisals" articles or under these articles: 80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities
Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment.
81. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Commit Hostile Acts
Persons who, without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), commit hostile acts about or behind the lines of the enemy are not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Such acts include, but are not limited to, sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations.
82. Penalties for the Foregoing Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed, or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject to the extreme penalty of death because of the danger inherent in their conduct.Lesser penalties may, however, be imposed.
Whether or not it's barbaric, it's the law as defined by the Geneva Conventions.
#38
sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations
nothing about cheering barbarities.
I agree with JH and others who say we would have been within our rights to attack the bridge while this was happening. Like JH, i am reluctant to second guess the commander on the ground.
Starvation may not be allowed, but there are other collective punishments that i think are quite possible. Iraq is still short of electricity - why should Fallujah get ANY while neighborhoods in Baghdad are going without? If anyone complains about hospitals, all non-emergency patients can go to hospitals in Baghdad, and emerg can go to US military facilities. Ditto no economic reconstruction, no water improvements, etc. There are far too many other parts of Iraq that need those resources.
#39
A great deal can be done without bringing in MOAB, nukes, or even a general attack on the population.
The Iraqi "Black Flag" organization, commonly described as "anti-terrorist vigilantes" and therefore regarded as outlaws, could be contacted through back channels, provided with all relevant information, and offered a quid pro quo to clean up some of this.
Black Flag is primarily a Shiite organization and would have difficulty operating in Fallujah but with the right incentive and some discrete help, it might be possible.
At the very least, the savages who can be positively identified in these photos should be killed and the bridge destroyed. The primary targets, however, should be the inciters, the local propagandists and clerics who are otherwise immune from retaliation.
The relative helplessness of the allies in responding to this kind of outrage, a product of our own humanity, is the mob's primary motive. It plays to media prejudice as well. The mob is essentially taunting us for our restraint and gloating that the world media and PC indoctrination keep them from being mowed down in the streets, as would happen in almost any Arab-ruled country if government personnel were attacked in this fashion.
It is also responding to the fantastic atrocity propaganda emanating from the Arab media, like the Baghdad rag that was shut down a few days ago. These inciters have the full support and protection of the western media and their post-60s re-definition of "free speech."
It is time to bring back the doctrine of "fire in a crowded theatre", defy the left-monopoly media and their pious dope-culture "ethics" and attack this at its roots.
#40
Well, I still like Fallujah as a Ghost town, starved not into submission...rather starved into non-esistence.
I will accept 11a5S's reference to the Geneva Conventions. In which case, as Jarhead, myself and others have noted, the correct response was to take the war to the Bridge...but immediately.
Unlike Jarhead, I will blame the commander on the ground. It would have been a tough decision to be sure, but that is what he is paid for.
#41
"The relative helplessness of the allies in responding to this kind of outrage, a product of our own humanity, is the mob's primary motive"
Is it? The Zarqawi memo about killing Shiites didnt make reference to the helpless liberal humanity of the Shiites - it is clear that attacks on Shiites are DESIGNED to provoke revenge killings on Sunnis, with the hope that the entire Sunni population would rally to AQ. Everything about AQ suggests that they are prepared for and hope to benefit from our lashing back at that them. Though they apparently also think that if we run a la Mogadishu thats still a victory. What beats them is when we can thread the needle between surrender and revenge. Which, I must say, the Bush admin did so well in Afghanistan.
Its not PC indoctrination that keeps us from mowing people down in the streets, al a Assad or Saddam. Its our own civilization. What we have to do is use that as a STRENGTH - to show everyone else in Iraq that we are strong enough to bring justice to the perps, we DONT take Dire Revenge.
#43
No, Liberalhawk, I must disagree...sometimes it is a question of the greatest good for the greatest number...Bringing our Liberal traditions, (and I see this as a Liberal War for Liberal Ideals), to Iraq is a good thing. To acomplish that sometimes requires stern measures.
I refer you to the end of the Gallic Wars where Caesar said, Volume 8, sections 34-44, "Caesar was aware that his clemency was well-known to all, and so he was not afraid of being considered cruel by nature if on this occasion he took severe measures." And so, "All those who had carried weapons had their hands cut off, but their lives were spared so that everyone might see how evil-doers were punished."
Caesar set the 5,000 or so handless men from Uxellodunum wandering all of Gaul as beggars and the Gallic Rebellions were over.
#45
In my opinion, it was a baited attack. The crowd and bodies on the bridge were the bait. They hoped we would attempt to disperse the crowd and recover the bodies. Every mounted avenue of approach was probably mined with IEDs. Every potential landing zone was surrounded with RPG toting jihadis waiting to reprise Blackhawk Down.
The town should not have been levelled Liberalhawk, but the crowd on the bridge was an armed irregular force. I would have no problem ordering an attack on them using air and artillery. The jihadis never would use that tactic again. Then as I stated above, I would go into town and find the leadership. Whether we turn them over to the Iraqis or use military tribunals is immaterial to me.
All reprisals against civilian populations are prohibited under the GC, period. Witholding additional aid may or may not be a reprisal depending on whether or not it affects basic human needs. Access to health care, for example, is strongly protected:
To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining, with the cooperation of national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory, with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics. Medical personnel of all categories shall be allowed to carry out their duties.
#46
I like the idea of sending in the Marines to recover our dead. Anyone trying to stop them or anyone molesting a body again gets shot on sight. Then to drive the point home, I'd leave a pile of pig guts in the offenders mouth. That will get their attention.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
03/31/2004 16:25 Comments ||
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#47
Essentially, this thread began just about a year ago when the Sunni Triangle got a pass - and barely felt the effects of the war. Certainly it was not pacified...
Back in May or June 2003 some of us said the things that are being said today - and were ripped for it. I certainly was. The difference between then and now? Nothing. Not. A. Fucking. Thing.
The comments here are Westerners talking to Westerners - using Western ideas and rules - and where to draw the line seems to be the point for many. A non-apologist Arabist would laugh his ass off and simply say, "Line? You're drawing a line? Then you've already lost."
We've tried the "hearts and minds" approach - for almost a year. It just doesn't work with these people, these Muslims - and it doesn't matter if were talking about Sunnis or Shi'a. You will not "win" here. You will receive no love for what you do. The question is one of grief and the level of grief you receive is a simple function: how much of what they want are you giving them? Period. They, including the currently "semi-pacified" Shi'a, cooperate when it serves them, and don't when it doesn't. If the situation changes with the Shi'a, it will be this simple formula at work and all of our laudable efforts won't mean dick. Of even less value is the credit given them for their previous behavior - it was in their interests then. All of the blather about Sistani is a good guy and so-and-so is a good guy, blah3. Wrong. Are they getting what they want - that is the equation. Period. If not, then the situation will change to reflect that fact.
Remember, duplicity is a hallmark of this society, of Islam everywhere. Today, just prior to the attack and prolly very close to the location, some Marines were prolly doing good deeds and chatting amiably with the locals. They were prolly cooperative - maybe even happy to work with the Marines. Then an instigator, one of their Muslim brothers, lights off an event. The same guy who was smiling and helping an hour ago is now dancing on the bridge and mugging for the press.
Why? Why not? As long as he's with you, he's your buddy. When he's with the other Muslims, he's their buddy. If there's any doubt, he's one of them. He'd drop you in the grease in a heartbeat. There are exceptions - fewer than most here think - and they are the only weight I feel when I advocate the hard line.
It's that simple. He doesn't respect you. He doesn't listen to you or believe you. He has no reason to - you don't live there and your impact has been minimal, thus far, in his world. Fix everything! Faster! I have no investment in this effort! I am free to criticize you because I want what I want and you have accepted responsibility to provide it for me. Hurry the fuck up!
Wanna change them? Really? This is where the rubber meets the road: MAKE them respect you. What do they respect? Power. Nothing else. Wield power and you have their attention - at least as long as you're right there in front of them. Wield it ruthlessly and without any LINES, and you begin to gain their respect in the form of fear. They will never love you. We are quibbling about Western ideas. They do not mean dick there in Irak. Give that up. They can learn to fear / respect you, but you have to be ruthless. Sorry, but that's the truth of it.
#48
#37 . . . Whether or not it's barbaric, it's the law as defined by the Geneva Conventions. No, it is not barbaric -- it is the natural response of normal humans to barbaric acts. The only question is how to find the perpetrators of sedition, rebellion, and (yes) unlawful resistance (note: all lawful resistance ended when the uniforms came off). The solution for those found guilty of sedition, rebellion, and unlawful resistance is simple and natural -- execution. But, as to how to find the guilty, I say we borrow the tactics of Col. Steve and ring the town with barb wire (and slowly section it off with barb wire, bit by bit) in manageable increments. I.E., go in with enough force to slowly and methodically, completely search block by block for weapons, documents, and people -- we have probable cause; the rest should be done mechanically without delay, and without relent. In the end, there will be no weapons in Fallujah, and no people go in or out of Fallujah who have not been IDâd, and who havenât been interrogated and cross-checked. Iâm not military, so I donât know if that is workable, but I think it would work and it would not violate the provisions of the Geneva convention. Oh, yah, right, one more thing: Anyone found guilty of sedition, rebellion, and unlawful resistance gets hung until dead from that bridge (which is forevermore the sole use of the bridge).
#49
.com
Wow. You hit the nail on the head. Well done.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
03/31/2004 16:52 Comments ||
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#50
While I'm tempted to encourage the USMC to use these incidents to address the serious lack of adequate parking lots in the greater Fallujah area, I think our approach should be to cordon the city (I don't know if that's realistic given the size of the city), search everyone coming and going, do a house to house search for weapons and contraband, institute up-armored patrols in the city and arrest every person who showed up in those pictures. All of this should be done after we have recovered the remains of those defiled by these thugs.
P.S. - When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? al-Sadr? al-Sistani?
Posted by: Tibor ||
03/31/2004 16:53 Comments ||
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#51
A city the size of Fallujah, without water, power, fuel, or sewage control, would be just what they want a stinking shithole of Sunni superiority.
I say we give it to them. Back to the 7th century assholes
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 16:55 Comments ||
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#52
.com, well said. Power, force, ruthless aggression in their face whenever challenged. The law of the pack is what they know. Jesus would turn the other cheek but we ain't Jesus (once said by a crusty old leatherneck). The most important component - the willingness to use the above factors without hesitation.
#55
"You will receive no love for what you do. The question is one of grief and the level of grief you receive is a simple function: how much of what they want are you giving them? Period. They, including the currently "semi-pacified" Shi'a, cooperate when it serves them, and don't when it doesn't. If the situation changes with the Shi'a, it will be this simple formula at work and all of our laudable efforts won't mean dick. Of even less value is the credit given them for their previous behavior - it was in their interests then. All of the blather about Sistani is a good guy and so-and-so is a good guy, blah3. Wrong. Are they getting what they want - that is the equation. Period. If not, then the situation will change to reflect that fact."
basically i agree. But i dont see it as particularly limited to muslims - thats the nature of politics, at least politics not under control of an established stable democratic state. Thats renaissance Italy, thats colonial Africa and India, thats politics in Latin America. Dog eat dog. I never said Sistani or anyone else is a "good" guy - least i hope i didnt - but a REASONABLE guy - one who understands cause and effect and who is willing to pursue their own long term best interests.
Maybe Im too influenced by the Federalist papers, or De Toqueville - i dont see the basis of politics in human goodness, but in human self interest. And i recognize that in circumstances of war, or disorder, or life in a dictatorship, or in the kind of uncertainty you find in Iraq, that pursuit of self interest necessarily is intensely Machiavellian. Youre too close to a "state of nature" - a war of all against all - which is dictated BY the state of nature, and not by one culture or another. Again, if we DONT HAVE THE STOMACH for this, then lets pull a Zapatero, get out now, and focus our efforts on policing the borders, et al. If we're going to play imperialist we have to deal with shit, and we have to do it cooly, and we have to well, play the game. I think we need to play it more Brit style than Roman in this era, for a lot of reasons, but i can see the arguement for occasionally going Roman, though even the Romans (as pointed out above) only did it occasionally.
Are we westerners talking to westerners- sure. But not all of the muslim world is Saudi. SOme places are more westernized than others. IRaq has Fallujah, and it also has baghdad. and Kurdistan.
Look - the USMC insists that you do have to play hearts and minds. They know better than i do, and i think than you do. Right now on other sites i see lefties saying, see, they hate us, we should leave, its just like we said. Basically I see you saying the same thing, dot com, though your attitude and recommendations are different. I respond the same way - look at the big picture, look at the good news as well as the bad, not all Iraq is Fallujah, etc. I see panic, left wing panic and right wing panic, when what we need is to stick it out.
#56
When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? before the next press cycle al-Sadr? never al-Sistani? in two weeks, after hemming and hawing
#57
dotcom I'm with you on this one. I particularily like the idea of the "Line," that by even trying to determine where it is, we lose. Which isn't so bad, (win some-lose some), but the truth is that Iraq is going to be the loser and the larger world itself will be the biggest loser.
Tibor asks, "When will we hear the condemnation of these attacks from the IGC? al-Sadr? al-Sistani?"
Well, I've been calling for their assassination for a long time now, just as a practical matter, so I'm the wrong person to ask this...but Tibor's point is well taken.
I also like cinegold's approach...but of course we won't do it. And there is the problem that most everyone misses...a mob is just having fun. It is something to do, a break in their everyday boring life routines. For all of the grieving and weeping and wailing afterwards, War itself is fun...especially for young men at lose ends with lots of time on their hands and needing a purpose in their lives.
However, while fun is fun, the idea must be gotten across that we will kill you if you have too much fun.
#58
"The Zarqawi memo about killing Shiites didnt make reference to the helpless liberal humanity of the Shiites - it is clear that attacks on Shiites are DESIGNED to provoke revenge killings on Sunnis, with the hope that the entire Sunni population would rally to AQ"
Er, this was not an attack on Shiites, Liberalhawk, so the analogy is not relevant. Zarqawi would not have referred to the liberal traditions of the Shiites because there aren't any, not because such traditions are irrelevant in other circumstances.
"Everything about AQ suggests that they are prepared for and hope to benefit from our lashing back at that them."
Indeed, but what would it take for them to be right?
"Its not PC indoctrination that keeps us from mowing people down in the streets, al a Assad or Saddam. Its our own civilization. What we have to do is use that as a STRENGTH - to show everyone else in Iraq that we are strong enough to bring justice to the perps, we DONT take Dire Revenge."
Very authoritative tone, but this circumstance is not the same as shooting into a crowd of dissidents or even looters.
These are extreme acts of hostility and barbarism, they are illegal under the laws of every country and the perpetrators are not entitled to protection while engaged in the very act. As others have pointed out, harsher measures than those taken so far are legal under the Geneva Conventions, which certainly enshrine our real traditions. What is it then that prevents these measures? I think it is the complex of perceptions and standards inspired by recent media culture, indoctrination if you will, and my statement stands.
Beyond that, I was speculating about the mob's motives and I think my speculation is reasonable. That includes some inferences about their perceptions of our restraint, not our own perception of our motives.
We can't allow an enemy's perception of restraint as weakness to determine our actions, but we can't discount it either.
As for "dire revenge," didn't I say this: "A great deal can be done without bringing in MOAB, nukes, or even a general attack on the population."
I should probably clarify that I meant "general attack on the population" to include suggestions like a blockade or starvation.
"What beats them is when we can thread the needle between surrender and revenge. Which, I must say, the Bush admin did so well in Afghanistan"
There is no clear demarcation between those extremes. Drawing a line, as we must, and beating them that way, requires that we recognize their perceptions; though, again, that should not be the only consideration.
Any action we take can be interpreted by hostile propaganda as revenge.
Conversely, any restraint can be interpreted by our own extremists as surrender.
There is a very large gap, however, between the measures I have suggested and "dire revenge" especially if we take account of real (as opposed to stated) perceptions among enemy sympathizers.
Would shooting at the mob to stop the desecration of the bodies really be the same as carpet-bombing the town or shooting hostages?
Legality does apply here, but it is the legality of war, not of the civil courts and due process.
I have suggested targeting the actual participants in these unlawful and violent acts of resistance. That is not due process as we safely invoke it here in the States, but neither was the killing in armed combat of thousands of Iraqi troops; or the assassinations of Yamamoto and Heydrich for that matter.
It is war and I believe these measures are legal and moral under the applicable standards. They therefore do not violate our traditional (as oppposed to recent media-imposed) standards of civilization.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 17:13 Comments ||
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#60
By the way, there were a lot of well thought out comments on this thread. Good postings guys. I just think I agree more with LH on this one.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 17:20 Comments ||
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#61
.com,
I agree with every word of what you said, particularly about duplicity being intrinsic to their society and about the ultimate futility of the "hearts and minds" approach, especially one which isn't firmly grounded on the Colson Maxim ("Grab them by the balls, and their hearts and minds will gladly follow").
But.
Let's not give up yet. Because when we finally do give up, we will be giving up forever and completely.
Like I said last weekend: if we do decide, at the end of this Iraq experiment, that the Islamic world is intrinsically incapable of co-existing with us peacefully, and more major terrorist attacks on U.S. soil are perpetrated, the resulting war will not be a war of liberation or reform; it will be a war of annihilation. It will be total, savage, and very brief: an hour after that war starts, somewhere between a hundred million and a billion Muslims will be dead.
I suspect the experiment is going to fail, but I think we ought not to declare failure quite yet. When we do give up on these people, we want to be absolutely certain we've made a thorough, good-faith effort to make democracy work.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/31/2004 17:22 Comments ||
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#62
.com: You are of course right. Western and Islamic cultures are almost entirely alien. One is based on the Rights of Man and the other is based on Might Makes Right.
I have watched our incursions into Iraq and Afghanistan with mixed feelings. I completely support the military goal of taking out the Taliban in Afghanistan and a major sponsor of by-proxy terror in Iraq. On the other hand, I have little or no faith in our experiments in civilizing the Muslims.
Ultimately, I think we need to use some Machiavellian ju jitsu on ol' Dar al Islam. I support Ralph Peters' strategy: Destabilize the region. Split up all of these phony nation states right down to the tribal level. Arm them all and let them kill each other off. Never let any Emirate or "Islamic Republic" get enough oil or capital to make nukes or for that matter, to be a threat in any way. And if Mahmoudstan does become a base for Al Qaeda or gets close to developing nukes, go in there with all of our might, crush them and get the hell out. Let them purify their own water and grow their own food.
We need energy independence to deal with the supply shocks of an Arab world constantly at war with itself. We need to shut off _all_ immigration, too. I think that those things are easy compared to "bringing democracy" to the Muslim world.
#63
LH - Panic? You certainly did not get that from what I wrote.
I do not advocate cut and run - exactly the opposite. I think the cordon idea makes sense. I advocated the sectioning / sweep idea way back in May 2003. I also suggested extremely harsh treatment of those who participate or shelter anyone involved in the (back then) support, hiding, storing materials, staging process for attacks in Baghdad area. Still makes sense - we haven't done it yet on a wide scale. We've tried the pinpoint approach, but that has not proven effective enough. Broaden the scope of the sweeps, cordon off the areas from which the terror is staged. Work it - and be meaner than a rattler every step of the way.
#64
.com post #47 great stuff....and no apologies necessary. I don't hold much hope for it happening that way. We'll have to wait and see what the Marines are allowed to do about it. It would be nice to wake up tomorrow to breaking news of the mother of all pacification ops.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
03/31/2004 17:32 Comments ||
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#65
11A5S - Amen. Every point and every word! There's the big picture LH - in different words and a slightly different perspective. I believe that there is little actual disagreement, here. We're just being Westerners and quibbling over the verbage, for the most part.
Dave - We will not cut and run. Either these shitheads will eventually figure out that it's in their interests to play along and learn a new game - or they won't and will suffer accordingly. Dubya's not going anywhere - unless November is a disaster and the cowards take over the US Gov't. In that case I'm leaving cuz I don't have enough time left to wait them out.
#66
IIUC we are doing cordoning and have been for some time. But theres a limit to the areas you can cordon. You need alot of people to man a cordon of an entire city, or a section of Baghdad. We have only 100,000 troops in Iraq, including support (not all of whom are contractors) and theyve got alot to do. Things have gotten better as we have trained more Iraqis to help - and of course to keep recruiting it helps to be, if not liked, respected in a positive way. Oh and if we lose more Euros and have to take over the Shia south ourselves that will be a further drain on manpower.
#67
Just up:
The four dead were all Americans, employees of Blackwater Security, a North Carolina firm that had been hired to protect food shipments in the Fallujah area.
I am still against our imposing a blockade of food shipments, but what about a self-inflicted blockade?
#68
"In that case I'm leaving cuz I don't have enough time left to wait them out."
You're not planning on checking out anytime soon, are ya? I know the feeling of not looking at limitless horizons anymore. The years are numbered and I'm starting to pay more attention to making them count.
Which means I REALLY don't want to spend them in a "People's Republic of America" or whatever the Frankenpeople would call it if they ever get hold of the reins of power.
But where to go?
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/31/2004 17:45 Comments ||
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#69
By the way, anyone have a rough idea about how large a city Fallujah is?
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 17:47 Comments ||
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#70
LH - You're right - the peace is proving a greater strain on manpower than the war. The Iraqis, who rioted yesterday when Army signups were delayed - are going to prove crucial. If we show an Iraqi face in the process of sweeping, it will prolly be much skeerier to the locals than our good ol' jarheads. They know what sort of brutality their own are capable of. I think we just have to be completely implacable, relentless, and ruthless. Summary executions, something we haven't even considered (Hell, we drummed out a great Col for terrifying a prisoner in order to get intel to protect his men in harm's way...) as yet. Time to make it so - and let the slow boyz meet the hard boyz. I won't pretend to know more than the Marines or their leadership - I just know what I've experienced myself - the rest is speculation. Playing hardball works in my experience - this I know. If we need more boots, fill as much as possible with Iraqis. If more CA are required, then pull 'em out of fucking Germany and Iceland and wherever else we have excess. This matters and we only get one shot at it.
#73
Thanks .com. I'm not being lazy, but I'm finishing up stuff here at work. A city that large is not easy to do house to house searches. Great comments all, I'm out of here.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 17:57 Comments ||
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#74
Great. I let my membership lapse last year. Oh, well.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/31/2004 18:02 Comments ||
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#75
.com. I agree. Its time to take off the kid gloves and show them that we can, and will be 'sufficiently ruthless' in order to get their respect.
Doing the nice guy works only so far and at some point we have to show that we can kick ass and take names.
Somehow people get that idea that because we are nice to the civilians we are 'pushovers' and can be treated this way. This is due to Clinton and Kerry's willingness to have us bend over and take it up the ass. Time for someone to get bitchslapped.
#76
It stengthens the parallel to Somalia that these folks were killed while guarding food shipments, the same basic consideration that led to the Somalia operation.
With that script available, it will be interesting to see how the media spin this.
#80
Mark Steyn was on Hugh Hewitt's show this past hour. He said there was only one road in and one road out of Fallujah. Steyn had been there last year.
Cordon the town, section by section. Barbed wire, armed troops.
Give the people inside the cordon 1 day to get out. They must turn over any and all weapons and compenents, no questions asked, total amnesty given.
Search the cordoned area after the 24 hours is up. Any homes with weapons or components found in it is bulldozed. Any armed resisters will be summarily shot or else hung by the neck until dead at their former front door.
Do one section a day.
Reclear on the fourth day.
After a week, allow the occupants back into the cleared section.
Total of 9 sections: 2 actively being searched, 5 guarded and empty, one being evacuated, one being repatriated.
Do this section by section until you have cleaned the whole town.
Put each section on notice that if it is the source of bombs, it will be sectioned, searched and cleared again.
#82
Now that's a plan! Hmmm. Sounds like you've done something very similar before - the math is impeccable - and not at all obvious! This approach can take down a city of 250K in a workable manner, too. Cool, OS, cool. 8-)
#83
Old Spook, take a look at this piece on the CIA's Phoenix Program used in Vietnam in '67.
Maybe you're familiar with it? ;-)
The American Thinker guy thinks it might be very useful in Fallujah, too.
Your thoughts?
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 20:00 Comments ||
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#84
God help the families and friends of those guys.
I donât know who was taking pictures, or under what circumstances the photos ended up published "for all the world to see"-- but Iâm sure glad someone was there taking pics. ( A picture is worth a thousand words.)
MY FAVORITE POSTS (in order):
# 20 .com: Click on the link.
# 81 OldSpook: That'd work nicely!
# 47 .com: A well-reasoned and realistic evaluation.
# 15 Zhang Fei: Asians, though often underestimated, know stuff about this kind of stuff.
# 34 Jarhead: Practical and to the point.
# 61 Dave D.: Interesting perspective. âNo regretsâ is a good policy.
Liberalhawk, I appreciated your post # 38, but a very long occupation would be necessary to accomplish the major changes--the societal overhaul--you seem to advocate for in Iraq (i.e. enough time for several generations to live under the rule of the Americans), if it could happen at all. Iâm with you and some of the others about nailing the perps, and not everyone. BUT--my favorites (above) are still my favorites.
#85
11A5S, couldn't agree more. However a rider or two.
The UN Refugee policy needs to be scrapped. All that will happen is that the "leadership" will bolt to the West for safety and continue from there with the help of their Fifth Columnist buddies already in the West.
When the situation is really grim, we should volunteer to "protect" their oil assets, without getting involved in their "cultural activities" like dissecting corpses.
That especially means no humanitarian help of any sort. Any NGO who insists on going in, to do charity work, will do so at their own risk, without any help from the Western Military.
I'm sure we won't know too much about what is going on, as the meeja, will aalso have to go in at their own risk - no embedding.
Polls are almost closed, but I want to plug for 11A5S #62 as a great post also:
"Destabilize the region. Split up all of these phony nation states right down to the tribal level"
I had mentioned this several times in conversations with folks since 9/11, particularly with respect to Soddy Arabia. I call it "atomisation", not the nuke kind, but rather in line with your concept of reducing the "state" down to its fundamental social components, partly as a security measure and partly with the hope that in the future a better entity could be composed out of a different arrangement of the same components.
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
03/31/2004 22:39 Comments ||
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#88
Tipper: Thanks for bringing up the NGOs. I forgot about them. They are the vanguard of the tranzi movement. They need to be kept on a short leash. We also don't need a bunch of wealthy "refugees", dipping into their Swiss bank accounts and corrupting politics here.
Carl: I agree. The best hope for the Islamic world is to start over from scratch. I see the example of the Germans and Japanese after WWII brought up a lot here. Those nations had already chosen modernity, even if they had screwed it up the first time. The Muslims, for the most part have not even gotten that far.
An intelligent, passionate, well-argued thread. Definitely a hall of famer, Fred.
Put up billboards of those who did this. Services cut off until all are handed over alive. Mark each pic off w/an "X."
Shoot a few of the main perps. Sprinkle over various parts of the city heavy at the bridge. All heads and a certain other piece of anatomy are on the bridge, w/said piece of anatomy stuffed into mouth.
Take the rest to GTMO.
Do you think it's too over the top to suggest they should be happy we didn't send them back lathered in pig fat?
#91
As a totally evil MoFo... here is what I would do:
1) Come dark dose the whole city with tons of aerosol LSD.
2) Shoot thousands of beautiful fireworks over the city.
3) when the go out to see what the noise is the aerosol douses them
4) Slowly turn it into a nightmare. Start with a rocket lacing the top layer of the atmosphere with barium to reflect laser light. Now start the light show. First with positive muslim images then go totally negative with jinn and daemons and such. Have the other religion's gods laughing on the sides. Make it progresively into more and more of a nightmare. Release thousands of stray dogs and pigs. swoop over with helicopters firing sometimes blanks and sometimes real shells.
Let the nightmare commence.
Come morning when they are all close to insane wait until noon then show up with troops on every corner. Responed with full effect when attacked otherwise hang loose.
Oh and make sure the mosques disappear durning the night.
Given the "quiet" on the news, we apparently had no immediate response... after all, the 5 Mil dead were an IED event which Sanchez & Co apparently consider SOP, now, and the civvies were apparently a total surprise.
And that is why we have the activity on this thread. It's well past time to stop absorbing this shit -- and start dishing it out 10x.
To tell the truth - I think Sanchez has maxxed out. Replace him with a fighter, someone like Col West (?), the one the gutless Pentagon turds busted, to lead the Triangle's sweep. It's hobnail boots time - and we need someone who knows what to do with them. Hard Boyz for Hard Timez.
#94
OldSpook has provided one of the few really effective strategies.
First off, destroy the bridge. It is a symbol of their actions and needs to be removed. The inconvenience its demolition will pose to the entire area shall serve as a glaring reminder that distinct repercussions exist for such barbarism.
Second, give any areas that condone violence the absolute lowest priority when it comes to food shipments, restoration of utilities and infrastructure rebuild.
Along with this; Cordon off the entire town, per OldSpook's plan and evacuate all residents. Segregate any women or children, and contain all men separately. Trace all of them to individual street addresses (wherever possible) during their induction. Establish photographic and biometric identities for all involved. As they are encamped, make it known that any single one of them who are involved in further insurrection may be subject to summary execution.
Sweep the entire town and destroy any buildings that are occupied or contain evidence of opposition. Active resistance should be met with demolition of that entire city block.
Maintain a restrictive cordon and replace their demolished bridge with a marginal performance pontoon crossing accompanied by a full military checkpoint. This will serve as a reminder that extreme discomfort is the price of barbarity.
It may be necessary to avoid repatriating the town with any men of fighting age. Allow the women and children plus any seniors to reestablish occupation of the city. It may be useful to prohibit all religious gatherings in order to discourage collusion.
Interdict any unidentified traffic by ringing the entire city with razor wire plus accelerometer based vibration sensors and IR motion detectors.
It may prove useful to meter all drinking water and ration the distribution of food as well. Do this on the basis of previously gathered information during evacuation and encampment thus ensuring that a minimum of support reaches any insurgents.
Install acoustic triangulation monitoring to trace the origin points of all gunfire and explosions. Institute scaled responses ranging from loss of privileges to demolition of buildings for areas that violate the proscription on weapons discharge.
Basically, make life pure Hell for those who are uncooperative and existence a chore for those who comply. Keep everyone at low ebb through marginal nutrition and extract compliance pledges in exchange for additional benefits like hospital treatments.
Yes, what happened was utterly barbaric. No, it will not be possible to avoid descending into barbarity to some degree ourselves, however small. Carpet bombing the city or decimating its population would merely serve as a recruitment poster for al Qaeda. Simply make it abundantly clear that areas of insurrection have an incredibly low quality of life.
Assure that cooperative regions experience accelerated and well publicized recovery, gaining those districts more economic influence and political power. This will hit those who are uncooperative directly in the pocketbook, the most sensitive appendage of all.
Finally, deduct the entire cost of this passivation campaign from that region's portion of Iraqi oil revenues. We have no obligation to finance the constraint of willful barbarity. Those who promote such violence will be treated to a retardation of all socioeconomic progress in their area. When resistance arises, use information campaigns to make it crystal clear how insurgence has caused a concomitant restriction in benefits for that area's residents.
The area of operations remains stable, although there has been a slight uptick in the number of attacks against coalition forces in the past week. There have been an average of 26 engagements daily against coalition military, just over five attacks daily against Iraqi security forces and just over three attacks daily against Iraqi civilians.
Yesterday Iraqi police were attacked with small-arms fire from a house in Mosul; two Iraqis were wounded and one apprehended. Inside a vehicle nearby, police found and confiscated two rocket-propelled grenades and three hand grenades.
Yesterday two Coalition Provisional Authority vehicles were engaged by small-arms fire. They broke contact and sought refuge at an Iraqi Civil Defense Corps checkpoint. The ICDC protected them and deployed a quick-reaction force to the site. After a brief firefight, the ICDC captured two individuals.
Two days ago, coalition forces conducted a raid in southern Kirkuk. The purpose of the raid was to capture targets suspected of facilitating the entry of foreign fighters into the area of operation. The force captured a man they believe to be the target and is currently in custody for identification and interrogation.
Q The shutdown of Al-Hawza -- were they warned at all? Were there any sort of letters sent to them before this letter that Bremer sent? And what kind of message do you think that sends to Iraqi journalists?
MR. SENOR: There was no warning. Under CPA Order Number 14, we are not required to issue a warning. From time to time, there are cases that we think warrant a warning, and then other times there are cases that we believe warrant swift action.
I think our overall message to the Iraqi people is quite clear in events like this, which we hold on a daily basis. There are over 200 Iraqi newspapers that have sprouted up since liberation. Many of them are represented at our daily press conferences, free to ask any questions they want. A group of Iraqi journalists meet on a weekly basis with Ambassador Bremer. We bend over backwards to protect the free Iraqi pressâs right to exist and practice their trade here in Iraq.
What we will not tolerate, however, is individuals or organizations that seek to incite violence against the coalition or against Iraqis, whether theyâre news organizations or not. We will not allow that sort of activity in an environment in which are responsible for the security and safety of the local population and of our forces.
We have a responsibility to protect, to strike a balance. And the balance is between protecting against incitement of violence while at the same time protecting the freedom of press. Itâs often difficult to strike the right balance. But some cases are clear. And when you have a newspaper like Al-Hawza, which repeatedly uses rhetoric designed to incite violence against U.S. soldiers and against the Iraqi people, we have an obligation to step forward and shut them down. And we did it for 60 days, and we hope thatâs all it will require.
As for Ayatollah Sistani, we have tremendous respect for him, his point of views. He represents a long tradition and a great number of Iraqis. And he is a key voice in this debate, as are all Iraqi political, religious and regional leaders. And he -- my understanding -- has sent correspondence to the United Nations with regard to the interim constitution and there is purportedly some sort of exchange, or could be some sort of exchange, between him and Mr. Brahimi. And I donât want to speak on behalf of two statesmen, two leaders -- speak on behalf of the communications theyâre having with one another. But we welcome all voices in this process and weâre glad that they are contributing to a vibrant debate.
The operations in Fallujah. The Marines are quite pleased with how theyâre moving, progressing forward. There was a short period of time, perhaps a misjudgment on the part of a small number of insurgents out there that believed with the changeover between the 82nd Airborne and the Marines that somehow there could be exclusionary zones and areas where the coalition could not or would not operate.
The Marines, knowing that they have a responsibility for a safe and secure environment throughout the entire Al Anbar province, and fully understanding their requirement to have freedom of movement throughout the province, went in there. Some people challenged them. Some people tested them. Some people failed the test. And the Marines are enthusiastic about, one, maintaining security, but more enthusiastic about the second aspect of that, which is getting on with the notion of providing support in that region, so that all citizens in the Al Anbar province, all citizens in the town of Fallujah will not be terrorized by a small number of insurgents, but in fact can profit from the significant amount of civic action projects that they can bring into the town of Fallujah.
So the Marines are quite pleased with how things are going in Fallujah, and theyâre looking forward to continuing the progress in establishing a safe and secure environment and rebuilding that province in Iraq.
GEN. KIMMITT: I would be very cautious about trying to attribute any of the extremist groups by either ethnicity, by region of the country, by background, and in some cases, whether theyâre foreigners or internal to this country. For a simple paratrooper like me, itâs people who are working against a free and sovereign Iraq, and those who working for a free and sovereign Iraq. And weâre not too particularly concerned about where they came from, but we are concerned about what they can do; weâre concerned about how they can derail the will of 99 percent of the people of Iraq who want to move to a free, democratic and sovereign and united country. And weâre going to continue our operations against anyone whoâs not just anti- coalition, but whoâs anti-Iraqi and whoâs going to try to take us off this path towards handing over freedom and sovereignty, independence and liberty to the people of Iraq.
Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie on Wednesday branded suicide attacks an obstacle to peace, in the strongest official Palestinian condemnation of a militant campaign of bombings against Israeli civilians. Addressing parliament on the eve of a new U.S. diplomatic mission to the region, Qurie urged Palestinian restraint following Israelâs March 22 assassination of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, for which militants have vowed bloody revenge. "The resistance of the Palestinian people to Israeli occupation crimes has suffered from attacks that have targeted Israeli civilians," Qurie told lawmakers gathered in the West Bank city of Ramallah. He said such attacks lead to an "accumulation of hatred and loss of confidence between the two peoples and place obstacles in the path of reviving the peace process. We have condemned these attacks which are morally wrong and today from this podium we reiterate our rejection of such attacks, because they harm our national struggle." Palestinian leaders have often condemned suicide bombings during a 3-1/2-year-old uprising, saying such attacks have hurt the Palestinian cause in the eyes of the international community. But Palestinian officials have avoided blaming bombings for derailing the peace process, putting the onus instead on Israel for its military crackdown in Palestinian areas. Opinion polls show strong Palestinian grass-roots support for suicide attacks.
Posted by: Mike Sylwester ||
03/31/2004 8:28:20 AM ||
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#1
bet he said that in English...now what did he say in Arabic?
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 9:46 Comments ||
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#4
Addressing parliament on the eve of a new U.S. diplomatic mission to the region,..
Some people never learn. There should be NO consideration of further "diplomatic missions" until the little matter of those murders of 3 Americans in Gaza last October is settled.
#5
"Opinion polls show strong Palestinian grass-roots support for suicide attacks."
Yes quite a culture using children to do their fighting. They will go down in history.
Posted by: Bill Nelson ||
03/31/2004 14:28 Comments ||
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#6
If he [Qorie] arrests Arafat as the ringleader of the bombings, he'll begin the long, slow process of gaining some credibility.
Prime Minister Qorie seems to be a lonely voice of reason in the midst of so much irrationality. Fortunately, he is not alone. 2003 Sydney Peace Prize recipient, Doctor Hanan Ashrawi and fatah activist, Abbas Zaki are among 60 signatories to a full page newspaper ad which was taken out along with Sheik Yassin, advising the Palestinians to, "stop sending our young people to carry out such attacks."
link = http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0619-08.htm
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GAZA CITY , Gaza Strip ââ More than 50 Palestinians took out a full-page newspaper ad Wednesday condemning suicide bombings, the first such public appeal by a group of prominent Palestinians. The move sparked debate at a time when the attacks are viewed by most people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an effective way to hit Israel.
-------------------------
I can only admire the courage shown by the 60 signatories of that newspaper ad. In such a highly charged atmosphere of perpetual violence it is commendable in the extreme to maintain such a calm perspective.
Should they manage to convince their fellow Palestinians that nonviolent resistance can succeed, there will be the first chance for a legitimate breakthrough in quite some time. If Israel continues to eliminate Palestinian leadership in the face of peaceful resistance, it would (for one of the first times) rightfully shift the responsibility for obstructing peaceful progress on the roadmap from those in the West Bank and Gaza.
After so much mass murder within Israel's borders, it is incumbent upon the Palestinians to make a first gesture. Yassin was a vicious and hateful man whose religious obsession overrode any obligation to seek prosperity for his followers. They have the most to gain by extending this woefully tattered olive branch to the Israelis. Peaceful coexistence would bring a substantial increase in economic well being for the entire region and amply demonstrate the folly of insisting that Israel be annihilated.
How nice that someone in a position of power like Prime Minister Qorie has finally purchased a clue. We shall see if any of the Palestinians actually listen to this man. For their own sake I hope they do. Time is running out as they ratchet up the rhetoric and make oblique references to attacks upon America. Israel's occupation will seem like a picnic compared to what will happen if they drag in the US military.
#7
Prime Minister Qorie seems to be a lonely voice of reason Thats your opinion. My is that I was disgusted when I read the ad. No mention, and not even the implication, that murdering people, including children was in any way wrong. The authors want to stop suicide bombings because they are not achieving the desired results. It merely means the authors recognize that things have got much worse for the Paleos since the intifada started and pace of it getting worse is accelerating, as Israel disengages and the paleos supporters abandon them to their own devices.
As I have pointed out before. A viable Palestine state required Israel made every effort to support it. Israel tried. Whether they tried hard enough is old history and doesnt matter any more, because Israel has decided to disengage. Once Israel disengages, Gaza and the WB will make Somalia look like a nice place to live.
Posted by: Phil B ||
04/03/2004 2:02 Comments ||
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#8
Please point me to a copy of the Al Quds advertisement. I have not had a chance to see the actual text and would like to read it for myself. If it is not a truly sincere attempt to peacefully resolve this crisis, I'll cheerfully retract anything positive I've said about Qorie.
The Belmont Club articles regarding the recently canceled Arab Summit point towards the Palestinian cause getting short shrift from surrounding Arab countries despite the rub out of Yassin, which should have gotten them a lot of mileage.
It looks like nobody wants to play with these death peddlers anymore. At least, not until America's next election is over.
Egypt has mediated a deal to divide responsibilities and spheres of influence between Jibril Rajoub, the current National Security Advisor to Yasser Arafat, and Mohammed Dahlan, former head of the Gazan Offensive Preventive Security services, as Cairo moves ahead with its plan for a unified security services in the Palestinian Authority and a unified Palestinian leadership to present to the Americans. Palestinian sources, reporting on the reconciliation between the two former rivals, said Monday that the Egyptian plan, once the PA security services are unified, calls for the new command to take control of all the PA armed thugs forces to take action against armed factions that try to continue an armed campaign against Israel. I feel that a resounding "Yeah Right" might be in place here
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, slated to meet with U.S. President George Bush two days before Prime Minister Ariel Sharonâs April 14 meeting, wants to present a unified Palestinian leadership Fat chance!
to the Americans, including former prime minister Mahmoud Abbas, the current Palestinian premier, Ahmed Qureia - as well as Ole YellerYasser Arafat.
Still trying to get Yasser recognized again...
He (Jibril Rajoub) and his Gazan counterpart, Dahlan, who was also favored by Israel and the U.S. were bitter rivals. During Operation Defensive Shield, when the IDF conquered Rajoubâs West Bank headquarters at Betuniya, Dahlan charged Rajoub surrendered to the Israelis, prompting Arafat to fire Rajoub. Since then Rajoub has successfully fought cancer, Drat,
and regained his prominent position in the PA double Drat,
finding enough favor with Arafat for the PA chairman to name him national security advisor. Bwahahahahaha
If the two have managed to overcome their differences, they could reassert PA control over law and order in the territories. Sources close to both sides said the two had not so much reconciled or held a sulha as they "reduced the tension between them by defining spheres of responsibility." Since the resignation of Mahmoud Abbas seven months ago, he has refused to meet with Arafat, whom he blames for the failure of the first Palestinian government, nor has Abbas, once the official number two in Fatah after Arafat, been participating in Fatah leadership sessions. And in a fascinating update to this unfolding story, just in fron Haaretz flash:
"12:54 Arafat orders Finance Minister Fayad to stop paying rent on apartment used by his security adviser Jibril Rajoub"
Posted by: Evert Visser in NL ||
03/31/2004 7:51:40 AM ||
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actually this sounds like a plan, basically having the Egyptians (who are scared of Hamas taking over Gaza) take responsibility for the security situation - Egyptians are used to using tough methods on Islamists - giving Dahlan an official role is a good thing, and a major slap at Yasser. As is bringing back Abu Mazen. Of course they will keep Yasser in some form, as gesture to the "pal street" but it sounds like they want to gut his power.
A bomb exploded under a U.S. military vehicle west of Baghdad on Wednesday, killing five soldiers, the military said. At least four people, including one American and possibly other foreign nationals, were killed in a separate attack. Crowds burned and mutilated their bodies. The explosive device that killed the American soldiers blew up when their vehicle ran over it, U.S. army Col. Jill Morgenthaler said in Baghdad. The attack occurred in Anbar province, which encompasses Fallujah, Ramadi and other towns where anti-U.S. insurgents are active. Residents said the bomb attack occurred in Malahma, 19 kilometres northwest of Fallujah.
In an unrelated attack Wednesday, gunmen in Fallujah attacked two civilian cars that residents said were carrying foreign nationals. The occupants of the cars were killed and their vehicles were set on fire. Witnesses saw at least four bodies. Footage from Associated Press Television News showed a charred body of one of the slain men, and the targeted vehicles in flames nearby. Some of the slain men were wearing flak jackets, said Safa Mohammedi, a resident. Although nationalities were not immediately known, APTN footage showed one American passport near a body. Last Sunday, a Canadian security expert was killed in northern Iraq in an ambush by masked gunmen. Andy Bradsell, 33, of Victoria, a former British marine, died when a convoy he was escorting was attacked.
After the Fallujah attack Wednesday, angry crowds dragged the bodies through the streets, dismembered them and hanged some of the mutilated corpses, said resident Abdul Aziz Mohammed. One man beat a corpse with a metal pole. Residents tied a cord to another body, tied it to a car and drove it down a street. "The people of Fallujah hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep," Mohammed said. "I saw it myself." Black hawk down in the remake, with different actors and scene
The identities of the slain men were unclear. One resident displayed what appeared to be dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars.
Posted by: Murat ||
03/31/2004 6:53:37 AM ||
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But it isn't Mogadishu!
(Even in the real Mogadishu incident and even though 18 of our fine soldiers were killed, we killed 1,000 of them. If Clintoon hadn't pulled us out of Somalia, we might have gotten on top of the situation even more.)
The Sink Emperor isn't President; George W. Bush is.
The devotees of the Death Cult that is IslamoFascism are trying to make us cut and run from Iraq, but that's not going to happen.
It will take more than a few barbarically-defiled bodies to end Operation Iraqi Freedom.
God rest the souls of those who were murdered.
Hope Jerry Bremer is working out the best way to deal with this evil barbarism and terrorist slaughter even as I type this.
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 8:51 Comments ||
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#2
Saw some film this morning of the Fallujahians celebrating the deaths of the Americans. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do know this: I'd like to see the gloves finally come off. Has martial law been tried yet? I'd like to see Fallujah isolated. I'd like to see the Fallujahians who challenge the US to begin dying in large numbers. Suggestions, anyone?
Posted by: Mark ||
03/31/2004 8:55 Comments ||
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#3
I hate to say it but the SS knew how to quell the civilian population effectively.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
03/31/2004 8:59 Comments ||
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#4
The problem is they dont fear the americans like they did saddam.
Hey I got an idea, how about we announce that the left is right, we apologize to saddam, and reinstall him in power.
Since Saddam is likely to kill these fools himself, it would be an victorious loss.
In fact, lets give him mustard gas, just so he can make it easy.
#5
Welcome back to hell, Murat! Where've you been?
Because Iraqis on the ground've seen a whole different story ...
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
03/31/2004 9:05 Comments ||
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#6
I see Murat's back with his favorite aphrodisiac -- dead Americans.
Hey, Murat, when are you going to get around to exposing the evidence you have of my true identity? I've been waiting for months, and I'm starting to think maybe you were just trying to bully me into silence. C'mon, 'rat-boy, put up the evidence or come up with an apology.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 9:05 Comments ||
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#7
Smells like Hama
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 9:22 Comments ||
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#8
by the way Murat - you're a POS
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 9:27 Comments ||
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#9
When your 'prophet' is a child-molesting mass murderer, I figure this is all in a days work for these religion of peace types...
Posted by: steve d. ||
03/31/2004 9:29 Comments ||
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#10
Murat
A few days ago I was unable to remember the name of that prime minister of yours who was a Kurd. Could you be so kind to refresh my memory? The other guy was telling that Turkey had been no better to Kurds than Saddam and it would have been handy to be able to use the name of that PM.
Anyways, I guess it's a good thing that we're not very good at controlling populations. Not much experience in it since World War 2. But I'd love to see the gloves come off, time to get medieval on these scum.
#14
Murat's like a wort; when you figure that it's gone away for good, damn it, it shows up again somewhere else...
Posted by: steve d. ||
03/31/2004 9:42 Comments ||
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#15
Hyenas do this. Humans don't. I thought this sort of barbarism was restricted to the Gaza Strip. Should something like this ever happen again, the marines should use helicopter gunships for crowd control. Such animals forfeit their right to live.
#16
These terrorists are about to find out what would have happened if we stayed in Mogadishu.
Posted by: Charles ||
03/31/2004 10:10 Comments ||
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#17
Every swinging dick in the imediate area
chain-gunned.
Suround Fallhjah.
Search every car,building,and empty lot.
Every building with weapons inside destroyed.
Anyone caught with a weapon kill them.
Any car caught with weapons inside destroyed,along with the owners home.
The neighborhoods where these atrocitys occur will be razed to the ground and the ground salted with tons of salt.
#18
How about we give the leftist hippies a demonstration of what "indiscriminant bombing" looks like. All those B-52s are probably pining for their old "Rolling Thunder" days, and I bet the B-1s would like a taste as well. Set 'em loose on the Triangle with some "Bomb till the rubble bounces" orders.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
03/31/2004 10:21 Comments ||
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#19
It will be interesting to see the mil response. I know a little bit about LtGen Conway of the MEF over there. My take is that we get back on the offense immediately start sending the company and battalion level sweeps w/full air and combined arms support. The muslims only respect force and power, give it to them in spades. Any resistance should be crushed w/extreme prejudice and derision. All domiciles that harbor insurgents get razed w/out hesitation.
I know what I'm about to say will never happen, but let me verbal masturbate for a moment: I'd go Genghis on their asses - 1) All enemy kia's get their heads decapitated and put on pikes outside the Marine Compound. 2) the beheaded bodies are hung upside down from that bridge in Fallujah. 3) better yet, scratch number two, just blow that fucking bridge up. 4) Snipers on every roof top 5) All muzy leaders who tacitly approve of attacking coalition forces are targeted for sanction. 6) If after 40 days Fallujah will not comply - give them the history lesson of Dresden.
#22
I thought this sort of barbarism was restricted to the Gaza Strip.
And Somalia. Not Fallujah. It's not a Paleostain thing, it's not a Somalian thing, it's not an Iraqi thing.
Maybe it's a Muslim thing.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
03/31/2004 11:11 Comments ||
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#23
It's not a Paleostain thing, it's not a Somalian thing, it's not an Iraqi thing. Maybe it's a Muslim thing.
yet not a Kurdish thing, or an Afghan thing. Maybe its an arab thing(granted somalis are not arabs, but theyre historically close to arabs)? Or specifically an arab muslim thing? Or arab muslims who are still backwards??
#27
This is too much. I hope we do something about it but fear we won't. All we'll do is send out a few patrols and roundup a couple bad guys. That really angers me.
There are more pics here - Warning - they are very graphic.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
03/31/2004 11:41 Comments ||
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#28
The even worse news is that one of the 4 murdered was a woman (and at least one was also an American).
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 11:48 Comments ||
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FoxNews says 3 are confirmed to be American. No word on the other's nationality, nor if the woman was an American. Regardless, this pretty much clears the decks for me. Sorry for being a bit of a Chauvanist, but killing innocent women (and children) brings out some of those Clan of the Cave Bear reactions in me. Guess acts like this make me feel like I belong to Kreb's tribe, not Ayla's.
#32
Shutdown & lockdown the town and send the Marines door to door with some IP's or Iraq reg army along for a little meet and greet with the locals. This type of crap cannot be let to stand without punishment!!
Posted by: Bill from NYC ||
03/31/2004 12:25 Comments ||
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I've got nothing snarky to say about this. But this war needs to go forward targeting the brains. I think if Falluja is the battle ground then prepare the battle ground for our success.
The civiliain population knows who the bad guys are in their midst. It's their call on who they want to support.
Cadres of Kurds maybe. Whatever I think most Americans will support a major blow against these enemies.
#34
I think the inspiration for this thing is the 3-11 bombing in Madrid. With Zappy responding to that atrocity with a promised Iraq bug-out and a Bush-Blair sliming, those actions can't help but promote renewed violence in the Sunni Triangle.
We are, thank God, Americans, and not Spaniards. And if Syria is involved in this matter, the consequences will be staggering.
#35
what is the rat back....been a long time murat....been waiting for an article like this to show yourself again?
Do not fool yourself this is no mogadishu.At leasts the fighters in somalia had the guts to fight (albeit lightly armed US troops) where these pussy ass sunni arabs kill unarmed civilians and then show how descent and civilizing islam really is by mutilating bodies..we are there and we are going to stay...
If you look at iraq the trouble is mainly in the sunni areas and areas adjacent to iran. Now it is human nature to be pissed when you are no longer king of the hill - this is the sunni situation.
These bastards wouldn't try this same shit with the US military and especially the marines who are in control of this sector.
Try posting articles over the next few weeks as operations are conducted in falluja.
Posted by: Dan ||
03/31/2004 13:30 Comments ||
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>That's actually funny; since I'm from the lower peninsula of Michigan "troll" is a correct slang for me according to those Yuper's (U.Pers) who live "above the bridge" (Mackinac).
#37
Are you guys sure that's really Murat? It just sounds like someone being sarcastic to me.
Posted by: Lil Dhimmi ||
03/31/2004 15:14 Comments ||
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#38
Lil Dhimmi may have something - MuRat usually debates and has more comments in his post.
Posted by: Dan ||
03/31/2004 15:50 Comments ||
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First off that bridge MUST be destroyed. Surround Fallujah with barbwire fences. No one leaves and no one enters. Set up a camp and put every resident in it for 1 week during which time every building is searched. Any homes with insurgent materials are destroyed and the owners are jailed, all weapons are taken. The Fallujah quarantine takes place until the Iraqi government takes over on June 30th.
I get a feeling all hellâs gonna break loose at the end of June...
A roadside bomb in Iraq killed five U.S. military personnel Wednesday morning, according to the Coalition Press Information Center. Military sources said the attack happened outside Fallujah, west of Baghdad. ... In an apparently unrelated attack Wednesday in Fallujah, two civilian vehicles were targeted by gunmen, The Associated Press reported. ... Four bodies were seen, the AP reported. Some residents mutilated the charred corpses, according to the AP. I see this is becoming a tradition as of late, mutilating bodies. My support for this adventure in Iraq is steadily declining. Weâre not doing anything useful there anymore.
Posted by: Rafael ||
03/31/2004 7:26:52 AM ||
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Time to bring all force to bear on Fallujah until the rat's nest is cleared and attitudes change.
#2
"My support for this adventure in Iraq is steadily declining. Weâre not doing anything useful there anymore."
That's exactly what the people who set that bomb and mutilated those bodies want you to conclude.
Yeah, it's stressful; I've got a son over there, so I know- and if I can stand the stress, you damn well can, too. Let's not give in to defeatist negative thinking.
Posted by: Dave D. ||
03/31/2004 11:49 Comments ||
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Well, God bless and protect him, Dave, and all our other fine and brave fighting men and women in theatre.
We can and will prevail over this Evil.
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 11:52 Comments ||
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The key is to stop the political correctness. Mandatory curfews need to be imposed there. Period. Anyone found with explosives should be executed on the spot with a bullet to the head. Forget the intel value of questioning people - the deterrent value of killing them is far important at this stage.
#5
I suggest that Spooky be sent to circle Fallujah about, oh, ten times or so, with miniguns blazing. What's left should be photographed and distributed all around the so-called "Sunni Triangle" as a little warning.
#6
The key is to stop the political correctness. Mandatory curfews need to be imposed there. Period. Anyone found with explosives should be executed on the spot with a bullet to the head. Forget the intel value of questioning people - the deterrent value of killing them is far important at this stage.
These two policies are both serious positions worth debating. Clearly tough measures in Fallujah are called for - both to solve the problem there, and to establish that Fallujah pays for what it does, while reconstruction goes on elsewhere. Curfews would seem to be a necessity - though that does make it harder to contact our informants. Spot executions for those caught with explosives should be considered - though ideally Iraqis should carry this out.
#7
Forget spot executions with bullets. Use a flamethrower and leave the carcass burning in the street.
Posted by: Laurence of the Rats ||
03/31/2004 14:42 Comments ||
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Rafael - how are we not doing anything useful anymore? the counties of the me are shitting in their pants. we are setup to deal with iran and syria and a byproduct is the majority of iraqis have a real chance to improve thier country and lifes. the media keeps focusing on the sunnis - well duh that were on top of the policital spectrum since the 1920's and now that are the minority without the power. of course they are pissed, but who really cares.
the people of falluja must of forgotten what it was like to be cordon off by the us military or they smelled some wiggle room with the transfer from the 82nt to the marines. give it a few weeks and they will feel the heat....
Posted by: Dan ||
03/31/2004 17:30 Comments ||
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The 12-day Pakistani army operation in the South Waziristan tribal area near the Afghan frontier is winding down following the release on Sunday of 12 government officials and soldiers seized by alleged al-Qaeda fighters and tribal allies. After cordoning off the area around Wana in South Waziristan with over 5,000 troops and losing about 50 soldiers in the offensive, the military says that "we have almost achieved our set targets" in driving al-Qaeda fugitives and Afghan resistance fighters from the region. The end of open hostilities, however, is only the beginning, and far from achieving its targets, the army, and Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf, are left with far bigger problems than when they first embarked on the mission into the tribal region nearly two weeks ago.
Although the Pakistan army has put a brave face on its South Waziristan escapade, claiming that its job has been done, in reality it had to rely on outside help to extricate itself with a semblance of its "face" intact. After all efforts to pacify the hostile tribals failed - the semi-autonomous regions are notoriously anti-central authority - the government persuaded leading clerics to bring pressure to bear on the tribals to negotiate a truce. The clerics, who belong to the six-party Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA) religious political party that is well represented in the National Assembly as well as the provincial governments of North West Frontier Province and Balochistan, are usually perceived as anti-US, but in fact, when the chips are down, they dance to Musharrafâs tune. The army sought help from the clerics on two fronts:
To use their influence among the tribes to get them to compromise;
To prevent the spread of a campaign started by some extreme religious leaders in Islamabad in which soldiers serving in the tribal regions were to be denied funeral rites.
Despite heavy United States pressure for a sustained campaign in Pakistan to once and for all drive all insurgents from their sanctuaries in the tribal areas, the operation has now ended. In terms of the broader picture, the plan was for the Pakistan army on the one side and US troops across the border in Afghanistan to sandwich all resistance between a "hammer and an anvil" and drive them from the Shawal area - an inhospitable no manâs land that straddles the border. This is nowhere near to being achieved. And there has been a strong backlash against the Pakistan establishment, both in the tribal areas and in the country in general, the extent of which has severely rattled the countryâs leaders. Indeed, according to insiders who spoke to Asia Times Online, there is a perception that, given the failings of the South Waziristan operation, there is an "an intelligence within an intelligence" and "an army within an army" in Pakistan and that factions in these organizations backed the tribals "in the name of Islam". According to sources, more than 150 soldiers of the army and para-military forces refused to take part in the action, including at least one colonel and a major. The political backlash of the South Waziristan operation has been so powerful that Musharraf has inducted former dictator General Zia ul-Haqâs son, Ejazul Haq, into the federal cabinet as minister for religious affairs in order to use his good offices - as the son of the staunchly pro-Islam leader - with the religious segments of society.
Soon after the truce was announced on Sunday and the Pakistan army began returning to its camp, pamphlets in the Pashto language were widely distributed in Bannu, North Waziristan and South Waziristan. They claimed: "Do not ever make the mistake of chasing the mujahideen of the Taliban and al-Qaeda." The pamphlets clearly warned those tribals who had cooperated with Pakistan and spied on the fugitives. In a public gathering on Monday in Wana in South Wazaristan, religious and tribal leaders gathered to take stock. "It was just like Jasn-e-Fatah [D-Day-like celebrations]," a contact who was present told Asia Times Online. "Wazir tribals presented turbans to more than 100 jirga people as a gesture of thanks and confidence."
Members of the National Assembly in Islamabad and others gave speeches, the gist of which can be summarized as follows:
Congratulations to all the tribes for fighting as a united nation.
The tribes had once again proved their "glorious traditions" of fighting evil.
The Federally-Administered Tribal Areas will remain independent.
The Central administration is always hostile to the tribal people and has established new traditions of "cruelty and barbarism".
Musharraf was misguided about the alleged presence of bin Laden and al-Zawahiri and other al-Qaeda people.
The meeting concluded that the army had destroyed 84 houses in its search for fugitives, and that claims that the fugitives had used long tunnels to escape were nonsense. In fact, these are trenches that have been used for many years to carry water. Now the army has destroyed them - and with it the regionâs water system. The meeting concluded by saying that those who died in the trouble were shaheed, and apologized for the army personal who died, saying it was the fault of the "high ups".
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
03/31/2004 2:10:12 AM ||
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,,|,, Boris. Give it up, dude! Fred's only going to compost your bullshit.
Posted by: Steve from Relto ||
03/31/2004 9:25 Comments ||
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He's OBSESSED! OBSESSED, I tell you!
And at least he spelled "speech" right today.
#3
Indeed, according to insiders who spoke to Asia Times Online, there is a perception that, given the failings of the South Waziristan operation, there is an "an intelligence within an intelligence" and "an army within an army" in Pakistan and that factions in these organizations backed the tribals "in the name of Islam".
EFL
Campaign 2004 has already claimed its first life. On March 18, Mukhtar Ahmad Bhat went for a walk near his Srinagar home. A police van brought his body back late that evening. Security force officials in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) are hoping the assassination isnât a sign of things to come - and are asking for some 56,000 additional troops to make sure their worst fears arenât realised. Two days before Bhatâs killing, terrorists executed a grenade attack on the home of the daughter of the Kulgam Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA) and Communist Party of India (CPI) leader, Mohammad Yusuf Tarigami. A Peopleâs Democratic Party activist, Ghulam Hassan, and a former MLA, also named Ghulam Hassan, were targeted on the same day. Soon after, terrorists ambushed former Jammu and Kashmir Minister and National Conference leader Abdul Rahim Rather. For politicians in J&K, such violence is routine. The 2002 Assembly elections, hailed across India as free and fair, cost the lives of 41 political workers in the month of September alone. The bulk of the victims were members of the National Conference, targeted by the Islamist right in an effort to bring down the party they saw as their principal enemy. In all, 99 political workers died in 2002. 1999, the year of the last Lok Sabha elections, saw the deaths of 49 political workers; 1998, the year of the previous Lok Sabha elections, saw 41 killed; 1996, the year of the previous Assembly elections, saw 69 such deaths.
Despite considerable media hype about recent and dramatic acts of terrorism, however, figures compiled by the Union Ministry of Home Affairs show that violence has been declining since 2002. Combat fatalities peaked in September last year, true to the regular seasonal cycle of violence in J&K, and have since been in steady decline. Military officials, however, have warned New Delhi that the elections will be taking place in the summer, when Pakistan could lift restraints on cross-border infiltration, allowing terrorist groups to replenish their cadres. Interestingly, February 2004 saw a marginal increase in violence compared with the same month of 2003. There were 60 attacks on security forces last month, compared with 53 in February 2003. 183 people died in terrorism-related violence, compared with 126 the previous year - although this was partly the result of killings of terrorists by security forces, which stood at 86, in February 2004, compared with 71 in February 2003. It is, of course, hard to draw conclusions from these figures, although they do, at face value, seem to suggest that the escalatory cycle that begins in J&K each spring has set in again. Indian intelligence officials also note that wireless stations operating from terror camps across the Line of Control have been telling their operatives to step up efforts to escalate violence during the election process.
During the 2002 elections to the J&K Assembly, politicians proved only too willing to engage in coercion and counter-coercion. Posters were put up in several parts of southern Kashmir by the Hizb-ul-Mujaheddin (HM), for example, asking voters to oppose the National Conference. In areas like the Mendhar and Surankote Tehsils in Poonch, for example, various terrorist groups used their leverage to block voters from the Gujjar community from exercising their franchise, and to aide candidates from specific villages. Last year, senior South Kashmir-based Peopleâs Democratic Party leader Abdul Aziz Zargar was even accused by the National Conference of having recruited Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) terrorist to target the campaign of his rival, Sakina Itoo.
Pakistan, of course, has good reason to allow - or even encourage - terrorists to proceed with their anti-election coercion. For all the apparent India-Pakistan bonhomie, broadcast ably by politicians on both sides during the ongoing cricket series, Pakistani strategic planners seem nervous about losing political leverage within J&K. Members of the Abbas Ansari-led centrist faction of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) met Indiaâs Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, on March 27, and Pakistan has made no secret of its displeasure at this event. Significantly, this faction of the APHC has now indicated that it would not call for a boycott of the elections, as it has done for each of the elections in the past. Pakistan has clearly rejected this factionâs credentials, and has put its weight behind the hardline Syed Ali Shah Geelani-led splinter as the âsole representativeâ of the people of Kashmir. What Pakistan chooses to do, of course, depends on just how much pressure the international community is actually able to bring to bear on it. It is at least possible that the recent institutional encouragement offered to Pakistan by the United States of America could translate into a more aggressive posture on J&K.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
03/31/2004 2:00:18 AM ||
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Sorry, but what does EFL stand for? I see it at the beginning of many articles here on Rantburg. Sorry if I'm off topic.
Sudan's authorities have arrested the opposition Islamist leader Hassan al-Turabi over a possible plot to overthrow President Omar al-Bashir. A number of opposition politicians and army officers have also been detained. The politicians are thought to be supporters of Mr Turabi's Popular Congress Party. Mr Turabi has denied his party was involved in any plot.
"Lies! All lies!"
The detained officials and officers are also being linked to the uprising in the western Darfur region. Mr Turabi's wife told Reuters news agency the security forces arrested her husband early on Wednesday. The PCP confirmed six senior officials were arrested on Sunday. Prior to his arrest, Mr Turabi denied that his party was involved in any alleged plot. He told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme that there had been "tension within the army" but there had not been an attempt to overthrow the government. He said he felt the government was trying to aggravate the situation to prepare the ground for his arrest and to ban the PCP completely.
"They're picking on us!"
The opposition leader is a former ally of Mr Bashir, who came to power in an Islamist-backed coup in 1989. Mr Turabi was previously detained in 2001 after a power struggle with Mr Bashir - and was released from house arrest in October last year. Al-Jazeera TV says 27 people have been arrested by the authorities over the possible plot.
Prolly not a good idea to be arrested in Sudan.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/31/2004 1:01:39 AM ||
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I guess we need to be more sensitive to our extreme Islamist peoples partys; IOW, we must include in our definition what the definition of 'election' is. To the Islamist extremist, he who got assasinated apparently lost and whoever (did not) shot him apparently won. Its similar to the custom of the Democrats here; where if the will of the people does not coincide with the election and VNS, CNN and others calling a state election erroneously, then you take them to court so you can count those votes just any ol' way you please, until your guy wins! Simply declaring the winner of an (state) election by who got the most votes in a state and hence, the electoral votes, is too arbitrary; it bypasses the nuances of a transfer of power. And we need to strike out the term "Gore Coup Attempt" from the lexicon as well. We need to sensitive: whoever whines the loudest, or shoots the loudest, should be considered the one who will be the most sensitive to the needs of the people. Because, after all its 'fer du chirren'.
The notorious Chechen separatist leader Shamil Basayev has made a statement promising to fight Russia not only on its territory but also beyond its borders. In a statement sent to the separatist website, Kavkazcenter.com, he explained it was an adequate response to the killing of former Chechen president Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev in Qatar. What Russia can do, Chechens can do, too, Basayev said. âWe have the ability to kill Russians in virtually every country, but we have not moved our operations outside Russiaâs borders yet. And today it is the event in Qatar that will determine for us our future actions,â he stated. âChemical and poisonous agents are being used against us. That is why we have the right to use chemical and poisonous agents against Russia this year,â he said in the statement. âAnd also, people older than 10 will disappear on the territory of Russia just as they disappear on Chechen land.â
He called the murder of Yandarbiyev an âextrajudicial executionâ and placed the responsibility for this upon the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, also blaming him for a refusal to follow the rules of international law in the âoccupied territory of Ichkeria.â
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:52:06 AM ||
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Chechen rebels, who are currently suffering considerable losses in Chechnya, are trying to use Ingushetia as a place for preparing large-scale terrorist attacks and acts of sabotage. "Members of illegal armed units are trying to center their activities on instigating an inter-ethnic conflict. In order to achieve this goal, they are ready to plot and stage terrorist attacks against the republic's population and Chechen refugees," Col. Ilya Shabalkin, spokesman for the regional headquarters for the counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus, told Interfax on Tuesday.
To confirm this assertion, Shabalkin said that Chechen refugees living in the Sputnik camp had contacted law enforcement agencies saying that children playing on the roadside had found a cardboard box with an electric wire attached to it. The box contained an explosive device consisting of two kilograms of plastid and an electric detonator. "The explosive devices was also filled with nails, bolts and pieces of metal to cause greater damage," Shabalkin said. The spokesman said that the bomb had been destroyed.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:50:34 AM ||
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Law-enforcement bodies in Chechnya have prevented in the past few months some 20 acts of terror which the gang led by Maskhadov and Avdorkhanov was planning to stage, a spokesman for the headquarters in control of the anti-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus told Itar-Tass on Tuesday. It was possible due to the information supplied by militants who turned themselves in to police, Colonel Ilya Shabalkin said. "The weapons caches whose location was revealed by the militants who gave themselves up contained up to 120 kilograms of explosives, which were to have been used in bomb attacks against authorities in Chechnya's Kurchaloi district. Experts believe using these explosives, gangsters could have carried out up to 20 terrorist attacks," Shabalkin emphasized.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:49:07 AM ||
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Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev threatened Tuesday to stage chemical attacks across Russia in retaliation the killing of former rebel leader Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev in Qatar and abuses against Chechen civilians. "We will bomb, blow up, poison, sent on fire, stage gas explosions and fires whenever possible on everything else on the territory of [Russia]," Basayev said in a statement posted on the rebel web site Kavkaz Center. "Combat chemical agents, toxins and different poisons are being used against us. Therefore we reserve the right to use chemical and poisonous substances this year."
Basayev said his Riyadus-Salikhin martyrs' brigade would not use biological or nuclear materials in attacks in Russian cities and would not target mosques, synagogues, children's facilities and mental hospitals. He said his fighters would attack Russians abroad to avenge the death of Yandarbiyev in a car bomb explosion in February -- an attack he blamed on Russian security services. Basayev offered in his statement to suspend attacks against civilians if federal troops in Chechnya stopped abusing the local population.
Lev Fyodorov, head of the Union for Chemical Security and a renowned expert on chemical arms, said Basayev would not be able to seize chemical weapons from Russia's two, well-guarded storage facilities. However, Fyodorov said, there are some 300 sites across the country where chemical arms have been buried, burned or otherwise disposed of between the 1920s and 1990s. Some arms were buried as recently as 1989 and could pose a "serious threat" if retrieved by Basayev, he said.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:47:47 AM ||
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#1
Now I'm confused, as this article posted by Tatyana sez that on the weekend he was sent on his way to have a meet and greet with his 72 virgins.
Posted by: Carl in N.H ||
03/31/2004 19:03 Comments ||
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Carl - you didn't read quite far enough - it was a hypothetical scenario - drawing a parallel between Israel/Paleo vs Russian/Chechen actions...
#3
Hasn't he supposedly been killed about 3 or 4 times?
Posted by: Jen ||
03/31/2004 19:13 Comments ||
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#4
gene splicing with a cat - he's a pussy, but gets 9 lives
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 19:20 Comments ||
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#5
Thanks .com.
I get an F for reading comprehension, but at least the world is back on its axis; I read Rantburg pretty closely, and couldn't figure out how I missed all the ululating over Basayev's death !
Posted by: Carl in NH ||
03/31/2004 22:29 Comments ||
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A series of bombs set three oil wells ablaze in Russia's rebel Chechnya region, officials said yesterday, and one was quoted as saying the damage could reach 500 million roubles ($A24.2 million). A spokesman for state oil company Rosneft, which runs oil facilities in Chechnya still functioning despite nine years of separatist war, said four bombs had exploded. "There were explosions at four oil wells, and three are still burning. It is not clear who did this, and we are still trying to put out the fires," the spokesman said. "It was a deliberate attack." A local industry official was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying putting out the fires would be very difficult, and would cause the high clean-up costs. According to figures from Chechnya's interior ministry, 17 pro-Moscow servicemen were killed in fighting with rebels over the last week. The ministry said 15 rebels had been killed.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:42:36 AM ||
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The Uzbek police have seized 920 kg of explosives since the eruption of terrorist blasts on Sunday,news reaching here from the Uzbek capital city of Tashkent said on Wednesday. The Uzbek government, in reaction to the recent terrorist violence, closed all the kindergartens in the country on Tuesday and announced an emergency inspection system by law enforcement agencies, local media reported. The country has also closed its borders with Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan while the military has tightened security in the border region, according to the reports. On the same day in the region, a car explosion took place near the dam of the Charvaka reservoir, reportedly in an attempt to destroy the dam and flood the city of Tashkent. The government said however that the dam remains intact and police have tightened its security measures to protect the strategic facility.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/31/2004 12:32:33 AM ||
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The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously Tuesday to keep a scaled-down U.N. peacekeeping mission in Sierra Leone at least until June 2005 to ensure the country's armed forces and police can handle security. The original mandate of the U.N. force, known as UNAMSIL, was set to end in December but West African leaders have been lobbying for an extension until former combatants in neighboring Liberia are fully disarmed and reintegrated into society. Under the resolution adopted Tuesday, the 11,000 peacekeepers currently in Sierra Leone will be gradually reduced starting in June in line with a recommendation by Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who called for U.N. troop strength to fall to 5,000 by December. The Security Council authorized a scaled down U.N. force to remain in Sierra Leone "for an initial period of six months from Jan. 1, 2005." But it said the force should be reduced further by Feb. 28, 2005, to a new ceiling of 3,250 troops, 141 military observers and 80 international police.
Posted by: Steve White ||
03/31/2004 12:21:38 AM ||
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The Russian news agency ITAR-Tass reported a firefight at a checkpoint guarding access to the U.S. embassy in Tashkent. Eight gunmen were killed in the confrontation, ITAR-Tass said.
"The black widows have arrived in Uzbekistan" said the Russian paper Vremia Novosti, a reference to Muslim women seeking revenge for husbands who had died in earlier attacks. There were also two clashes at two separate police checkpoints.
A U.S. official in Washington said Wednesday that continued unrest in Uzbekistan could seriously undermine Operation Enduring Freedom because "Tashkent is its lifeline," he said. The broader concern in the U.S. capital -- and in Moscow, for that matter -- would be that any serious upheaval in Uzbekistan could start a meltdown among Central Asia's former Soviet satellites.
No group has claimed responsibility for any of the attacks, and observers are somewhat puzzled by the Uzbek government's reaction to them. President Karimov immediately blamed the attacks on the illegal Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami (Islamic Party of Liberation) one of the two main Islamic fundamentalist movements seeking the overthrow of his regime. But observers noted that the declared aim of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which besides a large following among Uzbeks is also active in Tajikistan, and Kirghizstan, is to topple the government and bring back the caliphate by non-violent means. On Tuesday a spokesman from the movement's London office denied any connection with the attacks.
The other major organization is the clandestine Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which has carried out terrorist attacks in Uzbekistan before. IMU fighters trained alongside al-Qaida in Afghanistan, and the group is still said to have ties to Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization. Observers feel the IMU would be more likely to have staged the wave of attacks. Hizb ut-Tahrir, on the other hand, has never before been linked to terrorist acts.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan declared, "These attacks only strengthen our resolve to defeat terrorists wherever they hide and strike." He said the Bush administration would work "in close cooperation with Uzbekistan and our other partners in the global war on terror." Privately, however, some officials are concerned that the regime will retaliate by launching a fresh crackdown on opposition Muslim politicians, using the excuse of a terrorist threat. Karimov -- a veteran Soviet apparatchik -- already has a dismal human rights record. There are thousands of political prisoners in the notorious Jaslyk jail, and the United Nations has issued a stern criticism over "systematic" use of torture.
Tough action against Islamic terrorists would also serve to draw Uzbekistan closer to the United States. But when he visited Tashkent in February, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld brought up the subject of human rights with Karimov -- an indication of the Bush administration's discomfort with the Uzbeki leader's repressive tactics. Rumsfeld's visit coincided with the decision of a Tashkent court to free a 62-year-old woman, Fatima Moukhadirova, who had been jailed after staging a public protest following the death in custody of her son, a member of a banned Islamic group. The son had been tortured, and then killed by being thrown alive into boiling water.
As the Russian paper bluntly put it, "The regime is perfectly capable of taking advantage of the attacks to take a harder line against the opposition. After all, he has parliamentary elections soon."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:12:00 AM ||
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#1
8 gunmen dead? nice shooting Marines!
Posted by: Frank G ||
03/31/2004 9:43 Comments ||
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Uzbek special forces stormed a suspected Islamic militants' hideout in a Tashkent suburb on Tuesday, leaving up to 23 people dead after a day-long siege, the Interior Ministry said.
One woman evading capture blew herself up, witnesses said. Her severed head went flying over a wall. The battle erupted in Yalangach, two miles from one of President Islam Karimov's residences, a day after explosions killed 19 people in the Central Asian state.
When Tuesday's firefight had ended, five corpses clad in black and identified by police as "terrorists" lay outside, each with bullet wounds. An Interior Ministry statement read on television said 20 militants had killed themselves.
"In the process of being detained, 20 terrorists blew themselves up. Along with this, three policemen died and five sustained wounds of various seriousness," the statement said.
A suburban resident, Farida, said she saw special forces running away from a woman apparently wearing a belt with explosives, who then pursued a bus carrying morning shift workers. But the vehicle sped away.
"Then the police shot her in the leg, she fell down and then she blew herself up," said Farida. "The woman's head flew over the wall and into the courtyard."
Tension remained high after dark in Tashkent, a sprawling city dominated by tatty Soviet-era buildings erected after a 1966 earthquake. Soldiers with Kalashnikov rifles stood on corners and only a handful of cars ventured into the streets.
Lyudmila, 76, said elite troops struck unexpectedly.
"First the special forces turned up like a bolt from the blue, all wearing masks and armed to the teeth," she said. "Then we were hastily evacuated and -- along with our relatives -- heard explosions and the shooting."
Monday's blasts, which the prosecutor general blamed on female suicide bombers, raised concern in Washington, which uses an Uzbek airbase for operations in neighboring Afghanistan.
One group accused by authorities denied involvement.
Imran Waheed, a representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir in Britain, told Reuters in London he knew of no members linked to the bomb attacks or arrested afterwards.
"We haven't heard of any backlash against the group...," he said. "An intensification in the repression of our members is to be expected."
Uzbekistan sealed its border with Tajikistan to the east, Tajik border authorities said, and Kazakhstan, to the north, also beefed up border security.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
03/31/2004 12:06:50 AM ||
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#1
What do you call 23 dead terrorists?
A good start.
(Thank you, thank you - I'll be here all week.)
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
03/31/2004 18:53 Comments ||
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The head is up.......it's going,,, going over the fence... it's scooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre!
Posted by: Rick ||
03/31/2004 23:00 Comments ||
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A multi-volume chronology and reference guide set detailing three years of the Mexican Drug War between 2010 and 2012.
Rantburg.com and borderlandbeat.com correspondent and author Chris Covert presents his first non-fiction work detailing
the drug and gang related violence in Mexico.
Chris gives us Mexican press dispatches of drug and gang war violence
over three years, presented in a multi volume set intended to chronicle the death, violence and mayhem which has
dominated Mexico for six years.
Rantburg was assembled from recycled algorithms in the United States of America. No
trees were destroyed in the production of this weblog. We did hurt some, though. Sorry.
